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 Post subject: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Can the 4 agreements help when dealing with people who crazy - make, gas lite and try to control using various manipulation tactics in terms of our (specifically, my) ability to be assertive or put the kaibosh on it when it's happening?

I mean, for example "be impeccable with your word". a crazy maker is NOT being impeccable, so how can I find the words to expose it for what it is, maintain my intergrity, and follow the agreement?


anyone?

My personal work right now is going to be on assertiveness because I freeze. I just "let it go" because 'there is no reasoning with unreasonable", "there is no Talking to nuts".

I do have to deal with certain people so walking away is not the answer, but i feel like I really should get some skills in this area.

I do NOT want to be rude, I want to be assertive and honorable.

any ideas how the Ruiz book might work in this way?


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:34 pm 
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I'm not an expert on the agreements by any means, but I've dealt with a few people like that, and while I know it's easier said than done, I think the most important phrase to learn is "but whatever." Add it on to everything, just like the "in bed" game when you're reading fortune cookie fortunes. You don't have to do it out loud, but keep in mind that one of the other agreements is not taking things personally.

With my crazy-makers, I just had to do that. That's not how things happened...but whatever. That's not what I said...but whatever. That's not why we're here...but whatever. I'm not going to keep destroying myself against another person's hard edges even though I'm desperate to prove that I was right/that I didn't do anything/that I'm not crazy/that I was wronged.


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:45 pm 
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I like "but whatever"...

I also wonder if there isn't another step for the one's who will persist AFTER I say "whatever" to myself...

I don't need to be right.

I don;t need someone to think the way I do.

I need to assert myself out of the vortex they create, gracefully.


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:45 pm 
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Not to pry, but do you have a specific person/situation in mind?


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:39 am 
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surreal wrote:

I mean, for example "be impeccable with your word". a crazy maker is NOT being impeccable, so how can I find the words to expose it for what it is, maintain my intergrity, and follow the agreement?


Surreal, why do you need to "expose it". Expose it to whom? What are you thinking you will gain by exposing the crazy making? I don't know the specifics of the situation you are referring to here, but I think of these questions because to me I generally think of crazy makers as not worth my time and I don't allow them to be involved in my life. I dont care to entertain them - at all. (well, ok - everyone except my mom that is, i still want to prove myself right with her, and get all involved.)

You said you dont want to just "let things go", but rather to learn to be assertive. I think of "letting things go" (when you are dealing with crazy makers) as a really good thing to do. In that way, you are honoring your word - your word that you are a valuable person who is not worth the boring games crazy makers play.

The crazy maker doesnt have to be impeccable for you to be impeccable. They dont have to understand you either. You can speak your peace once, then let it (them) go. (Can't you?) Like: "I'm not comfortable with this. This is crazy making and I'm not feeling comfortable, so I'm going to leave now." Actually i wouldnt even give them that much. I would just ignore them.


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 1:55 pm 
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AmaNicole wrote:
Not to pry, but do you have a specific person/situation in mind?


Y'know I realized I was writing esotericaly and I thank you for pointing out this needs an example.

They are so hard to write because they don;t make sense and they need a context.

So, what I am going to do is pick from two recent situations, write a small context summary and then wait for the next phone call...then write it down as it happens...

It won;t be long...


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:34 pm 
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Liz94 wrote:
surreal wrote:

I mean, for example "be impeccable with your word". a crazy maker is NOT being impeccable, so how can I find the words to expose it for what it is, maintain my intergrity, and follow the agreement?


Surreal, why do you need to "expose it". In order to be able to assert myself when it is happening in close quarters or in a place like my home where I ultimately have the say how people treat me if they wish to be there, same goes with my phone line.

Expose it to whom? Not to any PERSON. As it is, maybe a different way to express what I mean is 'draw a boundary" or "stand up to" it?

What are you thinking you will gain by exposing the crazy making? Self esteem and personal effectiveness, better able to communicate my own boundaries.

I don't know the specifics of the situation you are referring to here, Cuz I was a butt and didn't put any examples!!!! :D :D :D


but I think of these questions because to me I generally think of crazy makers as not worth my time and I don't allow them to be involved in my life.
That works a lot of times and a lot of times it isn't really possible. Some people we have to deal with at certain times, even if briefly.

I dont care to entertain them - at all. Me neither! But as said above, sometimes we don;t get to pick in every situation.(well, ok - everyone except my mom that is, i still want to prove myself right with her, and get all involved. I remember feeling that way. I don;t feel that way anymore. My mother is essentially dead to me. After I felt the way you described here, I then used to recoil when she came near me. Now I don;t even think about her unless I happen to see her every couple of years or I have to deal with some illness and bill related issues. And that's the way she likes it. So everyone is happy. For the last 5 years and going forward, if I die or she dies it will be months or perhaps a year before the other possibly finds out. So, to me, she is already dead. Considering I never saw her, except when she was abusing me, we actually never had any memories, therefore no relationship.

Like in your post about how you see your mother's crazy making narc stuff as her own wounding, I too see this about my mother, but y'know, that's not an excuse. Especially for my mother who states she is an expert Freudian analyst. My mother has never worked a day in her life, never studied psychology, and has romantic relationships with her married therapist. I don't abuse people and I have the same "excuse" she does. What's ironic is that in her expert analysis of me, she holds me to a higher behavioral and achievement standard than she holds herself to- and that's all based on her being an "expert analyst". :D :D :D :D :D My mother's behavior is vile and has been pointed out as such by people who see how she treats me and by her own friends who feel she has no empathy for anyone else. But again, I can see it is her "wounding", I had to get right despite my "wounding", and she certainly wasn't going to tolerate me as a wounded person (even though she and her husband did it), so i will not tolerate her using her "wounds" as an excuse to abuse me or not to apologize.

So, no, I don't need to get into it. I just need her to stay away from me. Now I laugh at her when she crazy makes because she does it over e mail and I have her lies to quote right back to her. I don't do that, but it's good enough for me to remember I am sane.
)

You said you dont want to just "let things go", but rather to learn to be assertive. I think of "letting things go" (when you are dealing with crazy makers) as a really good thing to do. In that way, you are honoring your word - your word that you are a valuable person who is not worth the boring games crazy makers play.
This is a good point. And I wasn't using "letting it go" in the new age way you are here. although I DO use it that way often and I am sorry for the confusion. What I meant was "allow myself to be a doormat by sitting silently while being verbally abused or sucked into a vortex - eg

friend wants me to hang out saturday but that she likely won't be in town so she can't do what i suggested doing. friend sends me e mail sat am she is taking step son to therapy will be back around noon.

i didn;t read e mail. friend calls me say am. "what are you doing?' I ask what she wants to do for the day since she is calling. She asks if i read her e mail, I said no.

She goes round and round about making plans. I ask 'my table is being delivered today, can you stop at my place to remove the broken down moving boxes with your car, 10 minutes, like you promised yesterday?"

She says "if you had called me earlier I would have arranged my day differently, but y'know if you had let me know, what time is it coming, ....and goes on and on "blaming" me, the rain, how her husband needs blah blah blah. [color=#8000BF]This right here is the crazy making part. This is where I need to be able to say "stop lying right now. This is abusive and I won't tolerate this".


First of all, this was prearranged. Second there was NOT ONE THING SHE COULD HAVE REARRANGED. SHE TOOK A CHILD TO STANDING A DOC APT. PERIOD. I live 5 minutes down the road from her.

She said she would call when she got home. Never did. But it rings off the hook when she needs something.

There is no point in commenting on any of this interaction because this is so much more complicated with so much more involved...but I tried to keep it short and sane in the post. She lies, she makes excuses, this is not just me who knows it. her brother will not leave her alone with his baby son because she is so crazy making, her step children are becomming BPD because of her and thier bio mom. (friend is slightly BPD) My friends have heard her on speaker phone and jaws dropped at her insane way of relating and acting....

no. She is not leaving my life. It's not an option. [/color]


The crazy maker doesnt have to be impeccable for you to be impeccable. They dont have to understand you either. You can speak your peace once, then let it (them) go. (Can't you?) Like: "I'm not comfortable with this. This is crazy making and I'm not feeling comfortable, so I'm going to leave now." Actually i wouldnt even give them that much. I would just ignore them.
usually, yes, I would ignore. I am talking about people we MUST deal with. And no, I will not listen to abuse, which is what crazy making is. I will not listen to abuse and then feel abused when I walk away because I let someone intimidate me because they know people in general don't like conflict.

Standing up to a bully is the only way to stop them. I have done so with this one girl from time to time and it has worked somewhat...she backs down and makes excuses...but she backs off...

So, I am wondering HOW to be impeccable with my word (regardless of what others are) in situations of crazy making/covert stuff


So if my word is, for example, I will not speak in a confusing duplicitous manner to someone else, nor let them speak to me that way and not be called out (gives them the choice - be forthright or go away)...how to assert that...

so now, I think i have a kernal of something here...

THANKS LIZ! You got my thinker thinking along!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:39 pm 
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OH, and one more reason to learn to be a good asserter is changing the type of people i can have relationships with to much healthier one's!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 5:48 pm 
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Maybe this helps to clarify more:

SOME situations need assertiveness, some don't. I am all good with the one's that don't.


I am not as good with assertiveness. Walking away is not an option sometimes. Sometimes it is important to stand up for ourselves and call out crap that is being dished on us. Sometimes it's important to just say 'that's what you say" and walk out. I am not looking to explore the differences here. I am looking to see if anyone has thoughts on how to use the 4/5 agreements to help be assertive with integrity and grace.

I AM TIRED OF BEING A DOORMAT!!!!!

I have been called a "doormat" over half a dozen times in the last coupe of years. I know I am. I need HEEEELLLLP!!!!!

And plus, now I have a crazy neighbor who is doing "better" at not stalking me so much, but I Really need to keep my boundaries and assertivness around him. I bumped into him yesterday and he started in on me again about going out for easter...and he actually tried to engage me by saying 'you never answered my question"...

so, this is not just theoretical...i need to not be a doormat ASAP :D


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:18 am 
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Assertiveness is new to me as well. I have taken an attitude of it's better to say my peace than it is to hold it in and be resentful. The trick is to do it in a way that you feel good about. The other person's response is beyond your control. That is what is so scary for me. I hate taking the chance of having an unfavorable response to my honesty but it is necessary for personal growth to do it. Coping with undesirable responses is part of the process.

I had this happen over the weekend. My husband and I both wanted to go to the supermarket. He wanted to go to the local one and I wanted to go to the one that would have everything I needed and a different clientele. I need to shop in places where people mind their manners. I cannot tolerate any type of ghetto behavior. I had to assert myself and tell him what I really preferred. I really do not enjoy having to explain myself but I did it anyway. I kept it short and sweet. He ended up taking me where I wanted to go and I made sure to acknowledge him for doing so. The ride over was a little awkward but it passed rather quickly. In the past I would have just done it his way and fumed the whole time and possibly had a tantrum in the store. Glad I decided to ask for what I really needed. It was a lot less drama.


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:27 am 
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ReneePA,

I am not sure how this answers my question, so I am not sure how to respond. I have thought about it since you posted and I keep coming back to this, which I think is part of learning the assertion process:

It's great you see that you need to work on assertiveness (it's horrible not to know what the problem is, right?),

However I really think I am talking about asserting myself in the face of behavior like you describe. More subtle manipulation about wants, not needs and people who confuse the two. "I will sulk or throw a tantrum unless my NEED to go to a particular supermarket is met because i won't tolerate the people in the other store, and I will lose total control of myself and all perspective unless my wants are seen as needs and met."

There may be more to your story than what you wrote here, so just going off of what is here... while I see the progress and maturation from staying silent and fuming and then throwing a full blown tantrum to expressing a preference(great!), I need some help understanding the perspective or thinking behind a preference being a need.

maybe, as I said, that's part of the hang up with assertion and where it gets sticky..?


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:33 am 
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That is good food for thought. You are right it is a want. The need is to express what I want without getting an attitude from the other person. When I express what I want I make a real effort to do it politely. I need to feel safe and like what I want matters to the other person. I think that everyone deserves to be considered and acknowledged. I feel completely stifled in expressing my wants because I expect to be shot down. I hate being told no for reasons that do not seem very good to me. It is extremely triggering. I was told no a lot as a child for no good reason. There were never any reasonable explanations about why the answer was no. Whenever I really wanted something I had to do it for myself. I have had a job since I was 12. I feel entitled to have my preferences taken into account now that I do not live under the tyranny of my parents. I have gotten to a point where if my relationships do not seem reciprocal to me they feel damaging and I feel used. Obviously I need to look into this much deeper. Thanks for the input.


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:47 am 
Surreal-

I am reading the example about your friend.

It appears to me personally, that right now, after all that you have gone through(relationship gone awry, personal and financial issues, creepy neighbor), you are hyper vigilant. Your eyes are wide open, your ass is on the edge of the seat, you're on the prowl and ready to pounce, on perceived or genuine abuse/manipulation/crazy-making, etc. I see a deep desire to break the cycle and I think it's easy for us as humans to get knee deep in attaining our goals. However, I think there's a possibility you may be misreading the intent - Seeing things that are not there.

Allow me to expand on that. I have been nitpicking my brain for a less seemingly invalidating sounding statement, but I have come to the conclusion that this is the best statement I can use to precurse what I want to say to you, and do hope you will still be reading the rest with an open mind.

These are very human behaviors. Rare is it you will meet someone who takes 101% responsibility for their actions, emotions, behaviors and consequence. There is a fine line between crazy-making and...Well, human laziness.

Now this appears to be a long-withstanding pattern with her. I think it's worth it to consider that the pattern speaks more than the specific behaviors, themselves. When we're exposed to a pattern for the long haul, we tend to magnify the individual situation. Like for example, my friend has tremendous difficulty admitting she's wrong. Once, we had a tiff about a brand of dog food while shopping. She said she always picks up XYZ brand for her dog. I told her she doesn't, she gets ABC, the dogs like ABC. She said I was wrong and picked up XYZ. Even when I presented the empty bag to her when we got home, she still told me I was wrong. It escalated into such a stupid, bitchy argument. I should have just let her do her thing and not worried about it, nor showed her the bag. What was my point there? That was a little smug of me. Who cares if she wants to feed her dogs something else? It wasn't about the dog food. I wanted her to admit WRONG because I was so tired of her withstanding pattern. That was my mistake as 1). It sucks energy I could be using on things that I CAN control(myself), and 2)., It makes me look like a control freak. And I can be.

"Eliminating" the alleged crazy-maker isn't an option for you, so what is, you ask?

"Pick your battles" is something my mom has always told me and I'm very fond of the saying and try to apply it as often as possible(though as you can see up there, I don't always!). If you have a REAL problem with your friend's behaviors, ones that explicitly affect YOU(her not being dependable, for example), you have the option of bringing it to light. "Friend, I feel like there are times I really need you and due to circumstances, you've not been able to be there for me. I understand you have your own life to tend to, but at times I feel like I am on the backburner. I feel hurt by this as I desire a closer-knit friendship with you. I love you and I want to be there for you, I would like you to be there for me as well."

Everything else? Let it go to the wind. Take a deep breath and say "Fuck it". Nitpicking in an individual situation like that, in the example of the furniture, will drive a bigger wedge in your friendship and push you away from your ultimate goal(cultivating a friendship where you can mutually depend on each other). It is not your place to police people's behaviors and call them out on every little shitty thing they do(tempting, I know). It is your place to A). Decide what you will and will not deal with. What is compromisable and what isn't. B). Leave room for natural human error in said compromisable(and not, too) things. C). Address the REAL ISSUE.

You are more than capable of addressing the issue in a kind and respectful way, totally apparent from that e-mail you sent your neighbor. You've got great communication skills. Take in the whole situation, take that deep breath again, and ask "Is the benefit going to be exceeded by the cost should I choose to say 'Stop this shit, you're bullshitting/blaming/messing with my mind, woman' " ?

Often enough you'll find it's not worth it at all. It doesn't make you a doormat. Au contraire, it's putting you in touch with your wise mind. Our blended minds absorb the whole, extract the pertinent issues, and tuck the rest away.


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:25 pm 
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Raeni wrote:
Surreal-

There is a fine line between crazy-making and...Well, human laziness.



I had to pull this out right away in case I actually did die laughing before i got to the end...i am laughing so hard I can barely type....


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:45 pm 
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Raeni wrote:
Surreal-

Ranei- thank you again for posting and as always, your contribution is very appreciated. I will say, she is a crazy maker. It's not a question. I am apparently the last one to figure it out. It's known that she is like this. her husband says it, her brother and his friends say it. She is. And I am so not interested in changing her, changing my responses and also deciding how to view this stuff, as you pointed out, in the face of other things I have learned and have experienced recently. I am going through a process of integration and changing some things around during that process.


Now this appears to be a long-withstanding pattern with her. I think it's worth it to consider that the pattern speaks more than the specific behaviors, themselves. When we're exposed to a pattern for the long haul, we tend to magnify the individual situation. Like for example, my friend has tremendous difficulty admitting she's wrong. Once, we had a tiff about a brand of dog food while shopping. She said she always picks up XYZ brand for her dog. I told her she doesn't, she gets ABC, the dogs like ABC. She said I was wrong and picked up XYZ. Even when I presented the empty bag to her when we got home, she still told me I was wrong. It escalated into such a stupid, bitchy argument. I should have just let her do her thing and not worried about it, nor showed her the bag. What was my point there? That was a little smug of me. Who cares if she wants to feed her dogs something else? It wasn't about the dog food. I wanted her to admit WRONG because I was so tired of her withstanding pattern. That was my mistake as 1). It sucks energy I could be using on things that I CAN control(myself), and 2)., It makes me look like a control freak. And I can be.

Very COOL POV. VERY. I wish I was a dog food bag shower. I instead would have slunk away and cried on this board...but I do get your point, that's not a useful response either and it resulted from a long standing pattern of your friend getting on your nerves for an annoying behavior. Here's the rub...does this friend abuse you in her not admitting she is wrong? Because this is the line I am drawing. Once it is abuse, I have to do something different than if it is just annoying. My friend has crossed the line into abuse. A long time ago. i was just too busy dealing with my X to really address it. Now it's time.



"Eliminating" the alleged crazy-maker isn't an option for you, so what is, you ask?

"Pick your battles" is something my mom has always told me and I'm very fond of the saying and try to apply it as often as possible(though as you can see up there, I don't always!). If you have a REAL problem with your friend's behaviors, ones that explicitly affect YOU(her not being dependable, for example), you have the option of bringing it to light. "Friend, I feel like there are times I really need you and due to circumstances, you've not been able to be there for me. I understand you have your own life to tend to, but at times I feel like I am on the backburner. I feel hurt by this as I desire a closer-knit friendship with you. I love you and I want to be there for you, I would like you to be there for me as well." This is the problem in essence. It's not that she is self absorbed, which she sort of is, it's that she does things that affect ME. Like not show up and leave me sitting here. Like BLAMING me for her choices. Like inviting me to her mother's house and getting angry and cancelling her entire birthday party because she said she didn't like that I was going in the car with her brother because she was worried about the emotional toll his job takes on him and she doesn't want him to feel obligated. I have known him since he was born, he is a grown man and he is in no way put upon and has no difficulties acting like a grown up. so it's all my fault she is not having a birthday party (implied) because the "stress" it all created in her life...meanwhile all of us, her family included just sat there watching her drama and tantrums and could not understand what in the hell she was trying so hard to control...there was NO ROOM IN HER CAR....

When I talk about a person here that isn't me, I am not blowing smoke. i am truly conflicted, confused, tapped out of skills and I see the person as a teacher for me, so i post about them to get the lessons I need from them (unless it's a vent). This woman is whacked in a few ways.


Everything else? Let it go to the wind. Take a deep breath and say "Fuck it". Nitpicking in an individual situation like that, in the example of the furniture, will drive a bigger wedge in your friendship and push you away from your ultimate goal(cultivating a friendship where you can mutually depend on each other). It is not your place to police people's behaviors and call them out on every little shitty thing they do(tempting, I know). No, it's not tempting to me at ALL and that's MY PROBLEM. I do NOT assert AT ALL in certain places where I should. I don't give a flying rat's ass what people do as long as it isn't abusive. I am TOO lenient, not too rigid and that's where I get into a boundary problem because I can;t assert to stand up for myself in certain types of situations. It is your place to A). Decide what you will and will not deal with. What is compromisable and what isn't. B). Leave room for natural human error in said compromisable(and not, too) things. C). Address the REAL ISSUE.
A, B and C- yup. The real issue here is the theme of my thread- assertion -


You are more than capable of addressing the issue in a kind and respectful way, totally apparent from that e-mail you sent your neighbor. You've got great communication skills. Take in the whole situation, take that deep breath again, and ask "Is the benefit going to be exceeded by the cost should I choose to say 'Stop this shit, you're bullshitting/blaming/messing with my mind, woman' " ? That's where I have been stuck with her for yers..I still don;t know the answer - and that's a different thread with a different 'real issue"

Often enough you'll find it's not worth it at all. It doesn't make you a doormat. Au contraire, it's putting you in touch with your wise mind. Our blended minds absorb the whole, extract the pertinent issues, and tuck the rest away.

:thumbsup

Big hugs and love to you Ranei- thanks for taking the time to write that out-


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:58 pm 
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ReneePA wrote:
That is good food for thought. You are right it is a want. The need is to express what I want without getting an attitude from the other person. I would, if it were me, think of it differently and say it differently. "My WISH is to be able to state my wants without getting jumped on". I would use the word wish in place of need only for my own sense of well being. BECAUSE I know that I can't control what other people do. So, I would give myself some space to have wishes come true, with the flexibility of knowing they don't always...for my own sake...

I think the stakes get higher with a close family member or spouse " need" to have my wants heard without being jumped on (that's just basic personal respect), BUT I do not have to have them met always. I can accept "no" or a negotiation/compromise/delay.
.


When I express what I want I make a real effort to do it politely. I need to feel safe and like what I want matters to the other person. I think that everyone deserves to be considered and acknowledged. I feel completely stifled in expressing my wants because I expect to be shot down. I hate being told no for reasons that do not seem very good to me. It is extremely triggering. I was told no a lot as a child for no good reason. There were never any reasonable explanations about why the answer was no. Whenever I really wanted something I had to do it for myself. I have had a job since I was 12. I feel entitled to have my preferences taken into account now that I do not live under the tyranny of my parents. I have gotten to a point where if my relationships do not seem reciprocal to me they feel damaging and I feel used. Obviously I need to look into this much deeper. Thanks for the input.
yeah, there is a lot of twisted thinking in here and I can't really pull it all apart in the time I have right now- have you checked the tools?


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:15 pm 
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Ranei and everyone- I don;t know if you all have ever dealt with a true crazy maker---writing out examples of what they say and do- it just doesn't work. That's why it is crazy making. It is very covert and very subtle and can appear to be innocent, when what is really happening is sinister...so, I can type out a million conversations, but it's not going to help because what underlies the conversations is a lie that isn't being spoken outright, but skirted around and then covered with more lies in a definite bid for power and control. there is a lot of baiting the hook, etc...and then placing themselves in the victim role when we don't take the bait.

'i was only asking where you were and called you 100 times in a row because I was wondering if i could pick you up at the train."

'Ok, pick me up at the train. I am standing on the platform."

"Oh, I would if you picked up the last time I called, but now I am thinking the rain might come and even though I am next to the train station, my husband has been alone with the baby all day, and here I am driving by you, but y'know, I have to get something to eat so i am running out of time, tooo bad you didn't pick up the last time I called..see me driving by??? HIII!!!!"

ring ring ring

'hello?"

"is that you walking by the pizza place?"

"yes, i am walking home from the train. You just called me so you know that."

"well, i realized I wasn't going to make it home to eat so i stopped here to grab food"

"ok"

proceeds to put on hold to answer another call, then talks to many people "oh sir, is that your pen??? NO, well i thought it was because you walked by and I have a dog just like that one and he likes to eat pens, so anyway..."

'hello?"

'Oh there is a lot going on here I just have to get a napkin because I am now spilling greese down my shirt and you know I love this shirt I just washed it and ...., (repeats what just happened outside our "conversation" as if i couldn't hear or remember being put on call waiting hold three times in one minute after SHE CALLED ME AGAIN) I am going to go to bed bath and beyond right next t your house now, I just wanted to check that it WAS you I saw walking by the pizza place on your way home and I am not going blind."


------------------------

Or, she will call -

ask 'how are you?" and I will answer, ask how she is and then she will not say one word. Just sit there in silence. For minutes.


Maybe working on one of the other agreements might be applicable,


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:21 pm 
Does she abuse me by not admitting she's wrong? I have a loose definition of the word 'abuse'. In fact, I don't even like to use it. Like instead of saying I've been abused, I say I am a survivor. It's just one of my "things", my stuff here.

But anyhow, has it been invalidating to me? Yes. Has she embarrassed me and made me out to be a tool in front of others to save face? Yes. Does she use me as a scapegoat? Yes. Is it abuse? I don't know. Again, I don't like the word. It's not an acceptable way to treat me, however, and I have spoken to her about it. She is still quick tempered but takes a moment now, and can call attention to her own behavior. She did seem genuinely shocked and taken aback when I spoke with her on it. I think most people who encounter her are intimidated and avoidant of conflict, like you say you are. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and won't assume they are purposefully being rude or mean, but they're very internally focused and somewhat oblivious to the world around them. She is an example of that.

Perhaps your friend is, too. But maybe she isn't. Or maybe she won't give a rat's ass what you say and will continue on with the pattern. However, there is no telling until you address this 'real issue' of abuse. Since the real issue is what you feel, a lack of assertion, I want to know what you are afraid of, in terms of confrontation. Both on a rational and irrational(fears, past experiences that have a hold on us, etc) level. I don't know if you're like this at all, but sometimes I just like to shove my fears down - Out of sight, out of mind(I hoped, anyway). However, I give them more power this way. They become sort of mysterious and encompassing. Seem much bigger than they really are. If I have to hide them, they must be something fierce(faulty mindset there). Then I become not only afraid of the fear but the fear of the fear.


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:51 pm 
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yeah- this is really the point in the internal stuff- rather than the behavioral stuff, which is what I was focusing on in this part of the tool shed...but it may make sense to answer the question you ask first, then the behavior might just follow naturally...

raneePA had essentially said she was so often shot down in the past in demeaning ways it diminished her confidence to be able to get any needs met. I think there is a lot of that going on around here and i raise my hand to that one.

I also am AFRAID of crazy makers 1) because they crazy make 2) because I have not learned effectively how to deal with them up close and personal in the middle of an 'attack'. So, I immediately feel disempowered and my behavior shows that.

I need to think about this a lot more obviously, and i am still going to hunt around for tools that can help me out- maybe this just dpoesn;t need that much thought and I can say things like 'WTF?" and laugh it off...but then the crazy maker goes on the offensive by becomming DEFENSIVE and crying that they were 'just trying to be...(nice thing)...so it's the no win, disempowerment thing all over again. maybe just saying 'Oh, knock it off" "you know what I am talking about'. Or 'DRAMA!" I dunno-- looking for a one word , two word thing that disengages ...maybe that's just all it needs..but i know there are some situations where it needs more..


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:10 pm 
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Something got lopped off here, so I put it back in blue I said:

And I am so not interested in changing her, I am focused on changing my responses and also deciding how to view this stuff, as you pointed out, in the face of other things I have learned and have experienced recently. I am going through a process of integration and changing some things around during that process.


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:03 am 
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well, for me, being impeccable as I understood it was never talking against yourself or anyone else, not spreading gossip or saying things that arent true (lies). So naming something 'crazy' or 'nuts' off the bat is a negative value judgement. I dont know but perhaps more impeccable is to say 'unconscious' to describe that persons actions. To find a thead of compassion perhaps, like "i wish this person could have a clear mind someday soon'..i dont know. At the same time, its about speaking, living and being your truth. So to say internally or externally, "i cant comprehend that person's behavior or where they are coming from" is truthful and not judgemental, just factual. Stick with the facts, I think is the jist of it.

What do you think?

_________________
-“Your greatest enemy will hide in the last place you would ever look.”
-"The greatest con that he ever pulled...was making you believe...that he is you."

(quotes from movie "Revolver")


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:04 am 
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OH and dont forget to apply the fourth agreement to this one...
Just do your best! : )

_________________
-“Your greatest enemy will hide in the last place you would ever look.”
-"The greatest con that he ever pulled...was making you believe...that he is you."

(quotes from movie "Revolver")


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:28 am 
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Right on man. yeah. That's it.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:32 am 
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Cool! : )

_________________
-“Your greatest enemy will hide in the last place you would ever look.”
-"The greatest con that he ever pulled...was making you believe...that he is you."

(quotes from movie "Revolver")


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 Post subject: Re: Assertiveness, being crazy-made gaslit and the 4 agreements.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:06 am 
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I thought about this some more and a person can just stand their ground and let the crazy maker go crazy. I am having to restrain my mouth big time with my husband. He screams and screams and then tells me that I make him so frustrated and that it is my fault. I know that I am not able to make him scream. He chooses to scream. He gives me verbal beatdowns and says horrible things like You'll never get better and You are always triggered and so on. In the face of this I have to remain calm and point out that he is being abusive and yelling at me and that I cannot tolerate that. I have now separated from him. He said that he would get help but he has said it before and not done it. I told him we would not be seeing each other until he got the help and that he would have to pay for the help himself. I am intending to be impeccable with my word as far as not continuing to tolerate the abuse. I am taking a wait and see approach about him getting help although I do not feel very hopeful about it. He has been doing crazymaking with me for a long time and refusing to acknowledge his contribution to our problems. It is impossible for me to share my feelings with him most of the time without being attacked and feeling like a huge burden. If that is not crazymaking I don't know what is. I am going to keep my word to myself by continuing to be kind to myself and to him without allowing myself to be intimidated and bullied. Other than that it is in the hands of God. Sometimes I think that you have to choose to walk away from the relationship. I believe that there are always choices and sometimes they are terrifying. It has been terrifying to choose to respect myself enough to walk away and be willing to do it permanently if need be for my mental health. At one point I really believed that walking away was not an option but it is. It is just really scary to face being alone in the world. Being no contact with my parents makes it doubly scary.


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