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 Post subject: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:38 am 
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Can someone explain to me why the CC between Sarah and Denim is appropriate. I think it only gives a "known antagonist" yet another opportunity to continue antagonizing, which is what I see as the intent behind the original locked CC. There is no focus or ownership in the behavior. Imagine anyone on this board reading a discussion about themselves like that. It is done under the guise of "conflict resolution" when actually there is no intent to resolve anything with the third party and the two parties involved are not discussing their own issues without hurtful and imo inappropriate references to someone else (yet again).

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:36 am 
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As I understand it, the CC forum isn't just for conflict resolution, but also for any one on one discussion of an issue one of the persons has. As I see it, the thread was started as that sort of a discussion, to help one person regarding an issue she has.

It's just not my place to comment on whether they've done that and kept the focus on their own stuff and not someone else's stuff. But I do think the intent of the thread (the intent of the person who started the thread in starting and continuing it especially) is within the forum guidelines.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:43 am 
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Well it may have been well-intentioned to start the thread, it has only resulted in yet another opportunity to antagonize another member with further insults.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:01 am 
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I think the difficulty is that no one can predict whether another person is going to learn and grow from the exchange, or stay stuck. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:08 am 
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april15 wrote:
Can someone explain to me why the CC between Sarah and Denim is appropriate. I think it only gives a "known antagonist" yet another opportunity to continue antagonizing, which is what I see as the intent behind the original locked CC. There is no focus or ownership in the behavior. Imagine anyone on this board reading a discussion about themselves like that. It is done under the guise of "conflict resolution" when actually there is no intent to resolve anything with the third party and the two parties involved are not discussing their own issues without hurtful and imo inappropriate references to someone else (yet again).


I believe that the exact words used were "a known antagonistic source" but I accept the fact that I am coming across as an antagonist in recent CC threads. Would you like to address this directly with me or would you prefer to talk about me to other people? Do you see where I made an attempt to discuss the original issue with the person involved while it was someone else who started the discussion about that person?

The person has a choice to put me on her "ignore" list just as I have done with her so that she will not feel antagonized by the discussion. I have stated that I don't feel a need to continue discussing the person and the fact that I will be gone camping this weekend will effectively keep me out of any discussion for the next couple of days. What is it you would like to see me do differently so that I do not "antagonize another member with further insults" at this point?

I understand that you think it is unfair for two people to discuss another person in CC so perhaps you can demonstrate the most appropriate manner to address concerns about another person's behavior that you find intolerable. Would you say that this thread is an example of how such issues should be addressed in the future?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:11 pm 
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april, a sense of humor takes me very far in surviving life.

it wouldnt be good as a whole for the board to allow this all the time with everyone, but that is not my choice to decide. i think most mods know i am ok with it and can pretty much take it. probably depends on the people involved...grays, grays.

so i just look for the funny parts...and have learned this is good for me in learning dont take things personally, separation of stuff, and not owning anothers feelings. it is a great exercise in owning ones behavior choices and not using another as a excuse for anything. .

like most things, good and bad all mixed in. with a dash of humor. salted with pity. tossed with looking at what can be learned... kinda a salad...!

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:34 pm 
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Denim Blue wrote:
Do you see where I made an attempt to discuss the original issue with the person involved while it was someone else who started the discussion about that person?


No, I saw no attempt to discuss the original issue with the person involved. Your CC was just another opportunity to rudely and arrogantly insult another member, as usual. The thread was locked because people can see through your behavior and your attempts to make it look like you wish to be helpful when in fact you have no interest at all in helping. Most people can see your real motives by now.

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The person has a choice to put me on her "ignore" list just as I have done with her so that she will not feel antagonized by the discussion.


I don't know if anyone was feeling antagonized by your behavior. I think your behavior was antagonizing, and apparently others think so too. It was stated by this board's leader that you are a "known antagonist". I don't think it should be allowed to continue. I don't believe for one minute that you ever put anyone on ignore. Please, we wouldn't be here if you did so don't try to shift the blame to others.

Quote:
What is it you would like to see me do differently so that I do not "antagonize another member with further insults" at this point?


I'd like to see you stop antagonizing another member with further insults. Every time you feel the urge, just close your eyes and imagine that you see a big red stop sign. Just say no to hurling insults.

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I understand that you think it is unfair for two people to discuss another person in CC so perhaps you can demonstrate the most appropriate manner to address concerns about another person's behavior that you find intolerable.


Yes, you understand correctly. Well, I don't know what the most appropriate manner is, but perhaps you can discuss your issues with your therapist, and perhaps dig deep to find the root of why you find another's behavior so intolerable that you continue to carry on here like this year after year without any sincere attempts to resolve anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:36 pm 
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I think the one thing that I am seeing as I take an uninvolved look is one thing that is blaring at me.... and that is that jody has a following of people who chase her around trying to protect her from herself and her own consequences. I watched my mother do that to my father for 18 years, and I was the evil-doer who tried to allow him to feel and see the effects of his own choices so he would learn from them. In the end, karma dictated that he lose a limb. Nature dictates and rolls the dice, and there's no beating that.

My point being that judging people for the choices they are making and then acting on those judgments to give your opinions is sometimes stepping in where nature will take its course anyways, in one way or another... and it just makes things worse. If someone is po'd at jody or anyone here for past actions, or needs to set a boundary, allow that to take its course, within limits. Of course, I see the point about throwing insults and crossing boundaries, especially with people in recovery, but sometimes the actions another has done to bring on these behaviors is worse than those, imo, but it's very different in the eyes of a co-dependent type who has chosen to attach in that way. It will end when it's ready to end.... sometimes you just gotta step back and let it be, because it's not your fight. It's one thing to send a kind word in e-mail or support another when they are having tough times here, I think... another to fight that they should be shielded from their own consequences, however nasty they may seem to be in your eyes, within limits. There are no infants here.

At the same time, when judging a situation when you don't know the whole story behind it, one can end up just seeing a piece of the puzzle - one piece that may paint one person in a certain light. I think it's necessary to try to keep an open-mind when judging a situation that has been on-going for years, when you haven't seen every step of the way, and also when one is unable to step in the shoes of both parties involved. Also, one can assume someone has a certain motive, but in written form, there's really no way to Know what a person's motive is, especially on a recovery board where people are usually involved in dysfunctional patterns in one way or another, and are sometimes driven by pure emotion or just because that's the way they've done it for a long time, and there's a plethora of other reasons one could be acting out.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:47 pm 
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jody jody again,

blah blah.

dont people here have more to do besides invoke my name? like maybe focus on the core issue which was not me? it was behavior choices! it wasnt named jody.

i dont need protecting from myself and i dont stay on the board long enough each day for it to be useful anyways. lol.

no one deserves insults out of the blue sky, for no reason. no one. not even me. consequences are from our behavior choices, and i didnt choose to do shit to anyone. altho im close now...ok,,,i will own whatever consequences this post brings.

lets all play like jody doesnt exist for 5 mins and see what you find to talk about, ok? gotta be something around. recovery maybe? the tools? hobbies? books? clothes? movies?

i have a following??? rofl. ok, my following, i order you to cease and desist your chasing me (looks behind me in case) and go clean house or something!!! lol lol..or maybe...work on the tools? see? to the left<----------over there. the useful stuff. something one cant use my name in or about!

i suggest the 10 forms of twisted thinking.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:01 pm 
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Quoting Ash from a locked CC thread in the archives:

Quote:
To openly discuss and post disparaging, contentious remarks about another community member in a public forum where the target of such posts is 'not allowed' to engage is reprehensible and malicious. Such actions will not be tolerated at BPD Recovery.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:24 pm 
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I thought Ash tossed out all rules, regs and shoulds just recently
and anything goes . its all case by case, moment by moment.

perhaps I read it all wrong, or at least misinterpreted it

there is no black and white. .everything is grey
was what I believe was discussed


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:12 am 
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I think smilin' is right... that decisions now are made situationally. I am speaking from a place of trying Not to allow past actions, whether I like or identify with someone or not, or my own issues to sway the facts or cause me to try to enforce rules on one dysfunctional action and not another. I personally find both Sarah and Denim out-of-line in that cc, and acting from a place that is driven by their issues at hand, but it's not my call what to do about it, and I accept that. Neither Sarah or Denim's words annoy me, or make me feel anything.

From Sept. 10, 2008:
Ash wrote:
As mentioned, there will be very, very few rigid rules and very minimal structure around time-outs. This means that BPDR will operate in the grey, without black-and-white "if you do this, then that will happen" on a systemic level. Boundaries and consequences will still be communicated and enforced but there is no longer a growing Rule Book to point to and/or hide behind / skate around. BPDR will rely more heavily on common sense, judgment calls and wisdom of past experiences to guide each other in our peer support, recovery focused journeys.


http://board.bpdrecovery.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10295

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:20 am 
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If someone finds a post inappropriate, there are ways to contact the leadership team privately. No need to make a public post (which seems a lot like what one is complaining about). If you look at the description of the "Help" forum on the main index page, there's an email address there. Also, on each post on this message board there is an exclaimation point (!) icon that you can click to report it.

The question "why is it appropriate" assumes that it (whatever "it" may be) is appropriate. But it could be in the grey area. Or it could be that the community leaders haven't seen the post. Lack of a sanction against it doesn't necessarily make something appropriate.

April, if your purpose is to protect Jody, I think it's not your place to do that. If your place is trying to understand policy, you might try contacting a member of the leadership team privately. Or you might post again with a less loaded question -- one that asks about policy without making assumptions and without mentioning other board members.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:30 am 
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EllenKMR wrote:
April, if your purpose is to protect Jody, I think it's not your place to do that. If your place is trying to understand policy, you might try contacting a member of the leadership team privately. Or you might post again with a less loaded question -- one that asks about policy without making assumptions and without mentioning other board members.


I am not protecting Jody. I never mentioned Jody at all. You did. As far as I'm concerned, this whole situation has absolutely NOTHING to do with Jody! I want to know why talking about a third party is allowed today when it was admonished in the past. I don't like the continued bullying that gets perpetuated anytime someone tries to address the situation. And I can post publicly if I choose, just as anyone else. There is a post titled IBF in this section that no one complained about, that could have been done privately too. Sarah also could have pm'd Denim instead of starting a CC. Why don't you read through the CC I referred to and substitute your own name in there and see how it might feel to be the subject of an entire post that you cannot even participate in. It's talking behind someone's back when you know they are within earshot. Very childish and hurtful.

Thanks smilin for actually answering my question. I'm glad to know that, and if that is the case then I need not be concerned anymore about the mob mentality around here, the hypocrisy. I'm not at all surprised that many long term members have decided to leave. The continued bullying is draining and unhealthy. Whenever anyone addresses it, it is used as an invitation to bully some more.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:43 am 
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we crossed, april.
sorry...

i agree, it has nothing to do with me. im the excuse. its the basic behavior --not owning ones choices, and flaming another in the process. somehow, if we can get that thru to everyone....

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:47 am 
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April, you started this thread talking about Sarah and Denim in front of them in a negative way, do you think that's appropriate? In your lastest post, it seems like you're using the other examples of such threads to justify your own, while still trying to say it's wrong. If you're going to object to what other people are doing, it would make more sense not to do it yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:02 am 
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Nope, SG, I asked a question and both are free to answer as this is not a CC. I asked a legitimate question and I got my answer. It doesn't surprise me at all that the people who speak out against injustice and appalling behavior would get accused of the same thing. LOL. I'm not the only one who sees this. I know the drill though, perhaps BPDR is not for me! LOL. Pretty soon there will only be newbies and one psychopath on the board. Good day!

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:11 am 
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I didn't say you mentioned Jody. I said trying to protect Jody was one possibility of why you might be posting. It's possible to do that without naming Jody. But I also gave another possibility. And my thoughts on those two possibilities.

And you did, as I said, mention other board members.

(By the way, rereading your post, looks to me like you did mention Jody, though not by name. You referred to her as "the third party", but it was clear to anyone who'd read the thread you are talking about who that is. However, it was your talking about Sarah and Denim that I was referring to, as far as mentioning other board members. It still looks to me like you did the same thing you were complaining about. Though Denim did reply, this thread was not aimed at her and Sarah and it's clear from Denim's reply that she didn't see you as trying to start a discussion with her.)

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:27 am 
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SG said """"April, you started this thread talking about Sarah and Denim in front of them in a negative way, do you think that's appropriate?"""""


i would reply to this but i find i am speechless.........

why do people find objecting to the content of flaming as protecting me? i dont get that. it was obvious april meant the content, and not the person, very obvious. its obvious what excuses are being made to do it and that is not called on at all.

shrug* maybe they just dont like the continual flaming of someone...? not necessarily who it is, i would hope the board would find it objectionable when anyone is flamed, not just one person.

somehow no one sees that. they only see it as about ME, and it isnt. i dont even know april, just from public postings we both make.

yet its repeatedly said protecting jody or jody deserves all the flaming done. if the basic idea is brought up, there are always only 2 sides. one--protecting poor me. two,,,i deserve it.

i think someone is missing the point of the fact it happens at all, not who is doing it or having it done to them. take me out of the equation...and focus on the idea ITSELF. not the people involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:34 am 
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I did mention other board members names only to refer to which post i was questioning. My original post is only questioning the appropriateness of the content of the thread. The answer was yes, it was appropriate according to the new "rules" or lack thereof.

I find it really amusing that Denim is free to beat someone over the head repeatedly over a period of years, yet Candle was admonished and told she was inappropriate for very mildly side-swiping aqua??? LOL Where is the justice? Candle is gone now and what a huge loss to this community... the only SCL who demonstrated caring and compassion to everyone from an honest and rational perspective. This site supports the bully mentality and discourages tolerance and compassion. I won't be coming back, so anyone who feels the need to further admonish me for doing GOOD while turning their backs to EVIL can save their breath.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:03 pm 
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The short answer is: it's not okay.

I've been -- I guess the term is "out of pocket" though I'm not entirely sure I've used it correctly -- I've been extremely busy in offline life stuff the last couple of weeks. I apologize for that.

I'm disappointed in that CC and the general treatment of others around here lately.

I am deeply saddened that people are still not able to look at themselves. I know it's easier to point the finger at others and focus on other people's problems because they're so much easier to see, figure out and "solve" but when we point at someone else, there are four fingers pointing back at us.

I am putting a challenge on the table, here and now. Anyone who posts in this thread may not mention - directly or indirectly - anyone else. Focus on yourself, your feelings, your thoughts, your stuff.

"Sally was wrong to do that" becomes "I feel extremely bothered when I see injustices."

"Suzie started it" becomes no post at all. (Really. There is no point to commentary like that.)

"Cindy has followers trying to protect her" becomes "It really bothers me when I see people getting involved where they have no business."

"When Someone Who Shall Not Be Named gets to flounce around doing whatever she wants, it pisses me off" becomes "I'm really struggling with staying focused on my own stuff when there many distractions surrounding me; I need to learn how to tune them out or otherwise deal with them in a healthy way."

"I'm talking directly to you, Bethany, about what Sally, Suzie and Cindy all did and said" becomes "I'm talking directly to you, Bethany, about how you feel when you see injustice, what you think about when you see people doing things that go against your moral code."

I really need everyone here to understand what I'm saying in these examples. The sheer first grade playground antics I've seen show up here in the last two weeks are appalling and I'm disgusted by them. I really thought this group was better than this kind of disgraceful display.

Everyone needs to knock it off. If I see oblique references, if I see direct references, I'll probably give you a quick time-out ban so you can gain some distance, space and perspective. I may even go in & edit your post from the inappropriate b.s. you left behind and shift it into something healthy, recovery-oriented and self-focused so you ALL can see what it is I'm talking about.



BE IMPECCABLE WITH YOUR WORD

Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.


DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY

Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffering.

DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS

Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.


ALWAYS DO YOUR BEST

Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.


Knock it off, quit pointing fingers, focus on your own stuff, leave other people alone and take some personal responsibility for your actions.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:23 pm 
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Ash wrote:
"Cindy has followers trying to protect her" becomes "It really bothers me when I see people getting involved where they have no business."



It doesn't bother me in the least, and that's the truth, now. I think I posted in hopes that those who are involved in these roles would gain something from my words.

I just wanted to make that clear.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:41 pm 
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Aqua,

If you have some specific insight you would like to share with a specific individual on a specific topic, please do so. If you would like to share your own parallel experiences and current philosophies with someone you believe is going through similar experiences, please do so.

Please do not refer directly or obliquely to someone else or their actions without speaking directly to them. It is rude and offensive and inflammatory. It is unacceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:44 pm 
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Ash wrote:
Aqua,

If you have some specific insight you would like to share with a specific individual on a specific topic, please do so. If you would like to share your own parallel experiences and current philosophies with someone you believe is going through similar experiences, please do so.

Please do not refer directly or obliquely to someone else or their actions without speaking directly to them. It is rude and offensive and inflammatory. It is unacceptable.


Ok.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:59 pm 
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Location: Reality ~ It's a great place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there!
I have been camping this weekend so I just got back to this. In the future I will need to use the "I am not at liberty to discuss this with you" sort of replies rather than answering whatever questions come my way. I tend to communicate in a manner that is too honest and direct for most people to handle. It is possible I live in an alternate reality and so I frequently use "reality checks" to make sure that I am not the one in the twilight zone when there is a difference of opinion. The truth is important to me so I have found that protecting people from the truth is not to anyone's benefit. At the same time, it is not my responsibility to correct the wrongs because doing so does not necessarily make them right anyway.

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