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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:35 pm 
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Ash - as someone who in the past was in the center of "drama" - I'd like to know how would someone stay out of drama, even when other people are invoking their name without them asking for it? I know there is a fine line to walk here. It seems to me that some people don't like other people. So they put that person they don't like in the center of that drama. What is that other person supposed to do? How can they stop it? How can they stop other people from invoking their name? Susie doesn't like Mary. So everytime Mary posts something, even if it doesn't have anything to do with Susie, Susie has something to say. At one point, Susie even admits she doesn't like Mary. What can Mary do? Everyone has a different style of learning and absorbing new information re: recovery. Susie doesn't like Mary's style of recovery. So Mary is constantly in the middle of something just because Susie doesn't like her. I'm not defending anyone here - just trying to get to the bottom of this. It's almost like a no-win situation for Mary. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:45 pm 
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Ash, I wonder if you are understanding Jody's question different than me, because that really doesn't seem to answer it.

The answer to why Denim reacts that way to Jody, is not because Jody's always in the center of drama. That really doesn't explain anything at all.


Jody, it seems to me your real question is, "What am I doing to deserve this reaction from her?". And the answer is, nothing at all. Not that stuff you did in the past didn't contribute to the current dynamic. Have you acted differently with others that you haven't got along with than you have with Denim? I don't recall that you have. Seems to me the difference between her and others is with her. And the why is with her.

And as such, in a sense, the why isn't any of your business. It's her stuff, not yours. And you can't control her. Good boundaries and other healthy responses doesn't force the other person to change. But also, you aren't responsible for the other person's reaction.

I think Ash's answer might possibly be a good answer for a general question of why some folks don't get along with you. But I didn't understand you to be asking a general question like that.

I think if you spend too much time and mental energy trying to figure out why one individual acts a certain way with you a certain way that takes away time and energy that could be used more productively, as far as making your life happier and heathlier.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:07 pm 
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the thing is, what can i DO if others are trying to put me in the middle? how am i to blame for that? how can i stop it? i cant. thats reality. others are gonna have to see i can do nothing about it more than i have been doing.

ellen we almost cross posted. i like your reply. i cant control a thing about this. i just dont want to be blamed for that.

the honest answer is, its their problem and theirs alone to choose how to fix.

BG, one cant control another. one can only choose how they will respond. so far, except today, and i will go back to it, i wont respond.

no ellen, my question isnt exactly what do i do to deserve this? ok, partly it is still a need for reassurance. but i do recognize this is not my issue.

no ellen, i have not behaved any differently to denim or anyone. i am me to everyone here. we have all messed up in the past. i probably will in the future, but i have learned a lot and changed a lot. eventually the past has to laid down, and i am talking years ago...not last week. no one can be beat to death over something they did a year ago forever. (unless they keep doing it)

""""And as such, in a sense, the why isn't any of your business. It's her stuff, not yours. And you can't control her. Good boundaries and other healthy responses doesn't force the other person to change. But also, you aren't responsible for the other person's reaction.""". your right. why is none of my business. the thing is i keep being held responsible for her behavior and this is the part i would like to work on and change.

""""I think if you spend too much time and mental energy trying to figure out why one individual acts a certain way with you a certain way that takes away time and energy that could be used more productively, as far as making your life happier and heathlier."""" VERY true. this is why i usually just ignore it and go on. i should go back to that. and quit replying about this subject. it really doesnt bother me anymore, but what bothers me is others who get into it and it all flares up again.

asking why is what my homework is in counseling. lol. if i know why, i think i can somehow fix it and stop it. that is what my T is working on now with me. how funny is that. i am sposed to be doing a email about it to her.

i also think, possibly, some here pointing out im in the middle of the rhetoric, is a way to avoid looking at the core of it. its easy to say jody, it harder to work on the whys with others. this strengthens my desire to not own this and refusing, literally, to feel the feelings for another.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:20 pm 
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I think I got my answer. It is not up to Mary to fix anything. She just has to do the best she can and let Susie say what she will. I guess you cannot control others from not liking you. That's their problem. I just think this whole issue goes round and round and it does drain the energy of the board. It's too bad that this keeps cropping up every few weeks. It's really turning into a stale re-run.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:31 pm 
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i would say mary should do what she can and try, certainly. it ultimately comes down to mary cant control what jane does. mary needs to see that and see it isnt personal at her, but something in the other. unless mary is doing something when the teacher isnt looking. a who owns what type thing.

one thing you said and i have done , is to see should i know anything about why someone doesnt like me? examine it. was i shitty to them? gauge the time involved and words said. check into my own behavior choices. check MYSELF their stuff is not my business. a line i need to work on holding.

then, well, since this online and a board, im not sure as in real one could just walk away. if they follow, there is other things to try. here....it isnt like that.

what i have chosen to do is see what i can learn from it, leave others alone as much as is feasible, dont directly engage them, and let the mods handle it. i do foul up at that at times, but i do try to never respond in kind to negative things.

i think i just want reassurance from the mods im not being blamed for this, or missing something i can/should do about it, and one mod already is blaming me so i have questions i have taken to the leaders.

i look forward to a good solution.

so Bg, what can you learn about this concerning yourself? any lessons came out for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:10 pm 
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Well, Jody, one lesson I learned recently is that I can't, and shouldn't, try to rescue another. It's their business to deal with, not mine. No one here is my 2-year-old child.

I'm still a little confused as to why this still is going on. As I said, it's a stale re-run. Sure, there are people I may not like here. But I don't attack them (in the guise of trying to help them). I stay away from them. Live and let live. I have one person on Ignore. I don't bother her. If she wants to post in my threads, I don't care. So I'm trying to just take care of myself and let others take care of themselves.

So maybe I'm learning boundaries. Not in the name of - don't come near me or I'll do such-and-such. More like trying to respect everyone and step back if I need to.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:01 pm 
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sounds like good lessons to learn, BG.

boundaries are to protect us. what we allow. and since the only one we can control is--US---they are what will we do when something we dont like or allow is done. we have choices and its very empowering. we are not helpless in the face of the world. they arent threats or controlling another. just ourselves. :)

""""So I'm trying to just take care of myself and let others take care of themselves. """ this is such a key sentence to me. i need to remember it. i think thats all we can do. and letting others take care of themselves is a huge gift. something some of us werent allowed as children. from taking care of ourselves, we learn to grow up. confidence in ourselves. self esteem. how to handle things and work out problems. that pain isnt the end of the world. self confidence. tons of good stuff comes from letting another take care of themselves. its really very unfair to a child or adult to do it all for them. it keeps them dependent on another. they lack self power.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:06 pm 
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I was and still am a very dependent person. My mother did everything for us. She never allowed us to wash dishes or do laundry or clean. She wanted to do everything herself. When I first started working, instead of her showing me how to manage a checkbook, I gave her my check and she gave me cash back. Then I got married and my H took over. So I "learned" how to be very dependent. I still am to some extent. I have to work VERY HARD to feel independent. I am very dependent on my H and also on my T.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:14 pm 
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i know...

keeping a child from learning on their own and doing things for them is really bad for them in the long run. doing things for ourselves is one place our esteem comes from.

have you ever wondered what about your mom gave her that need? that is was about her, and not you?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:50 pm 
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AquaLite15 wrote:
What I am wondering is "why jody?".... and I hope that is ok to ask.

There are plenty of people here who go waaaaaaaaay out-of-line according to what would ever be acceptable around others irl, according to anyone with simply high standards, yet Denim isn't angry at them. So why does that theory work? I have written things to Denim in the past that are not nice, but she didn't touch it. So have others here....and she does not respond in that way to them. So what's the key?


I know that to some people it appears as if I am "picking on" Jody but my response has to do with her behavior and no one else's. It has nothing to do with what I wasn't allowed to "get away with" as a child. It really has to do with my boundary being violated by someone who has no boundaries. I hope people are able to grasp this concept because I don't want to have to keep repeating myself every time the question comes up again.

The indisputable fact is that I asked Jody to leave me alone and she agreed not to post in threads I start or start threads to argue her own point of view about a topic I bring up. I made it clear that if she kept her agreement, I would do the same and leave her alone. It was not so much a situation of "she started it" when she broke her agreement by starting threads to argue against topics I brought up and then posting directly in a thread I started, it was my following through on what I stated I would do if/when she made that choice. It boils down to this: I set a boundary and stated what I would do if that boundary was violated and then I did exactly what I said I would do. Jody made her choice and I responded to that choice by keeping my word. I no longer anticipate any sort of common understanding between us in the future so there will be no further attempts on my part to communicate effectively with Jody.

I do know what it takes to set boundaries and I believe that I did that quite clearly. I am aware that I am not able to control Jody's behavior by setting a boundary and that she has the right to violate the boundary if she chooses. I also have the right to follow through with what I said I was going to do and I have done that.

In the future I will not be starting threads since that appears to be the only way to remove the opportunity for Jody to deliberately violate my stated boundary. I am willing to accept responsibility for my mistake, which was to trust Jody to keep her word. I won't make that mistake again because this was the third "strike" and I am not giving her any more chances. She can't be trusted so I never should have assumed that she had the common decency to be true to her word. Pathological liars will even lie to themselves so it is not in their nature to be honest. I can't expect that to ever change.

All I can do at this point is to protect myself and that is what I am doing. There is no need for me to address this issue any further because I have made the changes necessary in my own behavior to keep from being targeted again in the future. Since Jody won't leave me alone as requested, it is my responsibility to remove myself as far away from her as possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:20 am 
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Denim, as I stated above, I have someone on Ignore. I don't care if she posts in my thread or not. For some reason, you are sooo triggered here. I don't believe the problem is that someone crosses your boundaries - it seems to me that your reactions, which are so over-the-top, is the problem. It seems that you're the cause of the drama - if you'd just live and let live, the board wouldn't constantly take up so much energy on this. It's getting old already.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:38 am 
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Denim - I apologize if I sounded harsh above. My fault and I'm sorry. I'd like to share some things with you. When I have had problems with people here, it has been suggested to me that I try to figure out what is causing the trigger in me. I know you don't like Jody, but since you make such an issue of this here, perhaps you might try to understand what it is that bothers you so much. Why you can't just be a little more tolerant. We cannot control others - we can only control ourselves. I was thinking about your issues with punishment - it seems like a pretty black-and-white thing to me. You deal with life by imposing harsh consequences on yourself and maybe on others. We can't punish everyone. Life is not black-and-white. There are always going to be people we don't like. We cannot totally erase them from our lives. I had a situation like this. I had a big falling out with a friend. I was really traumatized by it. But I had to see her from time-to-time. I didn't want to see her, but I had no choice. So I had to learn to deal with it. The first time I saw her after our falling out, I had a huge anxiety attack. But eventually I was able to be in the same room as her and not react so violently. Basically we ignore each other. That's just the way life is. We all need to live in the grays. Once I learned this, my life was much calmer. Do you really need the turmoil that you cause within yourself over this? Is it really that important in the long run? I'm sure you have more real-life issues to deal with than this. Why not give yourself a break? It might cause you more peace inside yourself. I hope you can get to this place.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 5:49 am 
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I just had to say, BG, what a great post! Denim, I hope you read what she said closely. It seems to me you are the one causing yourself all the discomfort in this particular situation. Your "consequence" simply does not work to protect you. Crying foul because Jody posted in "your" thread isn't going to do a thing but annoy the people that are tired of the drama. In essence, hurting YOU. So you need to figure out a consequence to your boundary that's going to HELP you.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:32 am 
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Bordergirl wrote:
AI'd like to know how would someone stay out of drama, even when other people are invoking their name without them asking for it?

What is that other person supposed to do? How can they stop it? How can they stop other people from invoking their name? Susie doesn't like Mary. So everytime Mary posts something, even if it doesn't have anything to do with Susie, Susie has something to say. At one point, Susie even admits she doesn't like Mary. What can Mary do?

BG, that's a good question, thank you for asking that. It's the same question I asked about ten years ago when a friend of mine said that I was a Drama Queen. I protested saying "I don't want the drama, it just always seems to find me, it's not my fault!" (Sound familiar?)

The fact is, we reap what we sow. Thoughts are things. What we put into the universe is what gets returned to us three-fold.

The beauty of CBT and mindfulness and all the other tools we work with around here are that we get to start paying attention to what it is we put out into the world around us. We get to observe our interactions and learn what it is we might be doing to influence the drama and intrigue that seems to surround us at all times. We get to practice being more calm and presenting a more calming influence on those around us. We get to work on projecting our thoughts in drama-free ways.

We may act in a provocative manner. We may deliberately poke a sleeping bear. We may be thoughtless or carefree with our words. We may do a thousand little things that, to most people, would seem harmless, innoccuous, small, minor, hardly worth mentioning. But when we start paying attention, we can begin to recognize how much of a role we are really contributing to our own drama sagas.

It's not up to us to stop other people from making allegations.

It's not up to us to change the beliefs other people have about us.

What we can do, however, is focus on distancing ourselves from all things drama related.

If it doesn't concern us, we don't need to get involved, butt in, chime in. We can give the situation a wide berth and steer clear of it.

We're allowed to have opinions, of course, but sometimes silence is the better part of valor. We needn't share an opinion just becaue one popped into our head, especially when the subject matter is controversial or there are "adversaries" already involved in the topic. We can steer clear. We can let go of the outcome. We can accept that our opinion is our own and really needn't be shared with the world; that it's good enough that we know what our opinion is, even if the world doesn't.

I appreciate your example of Susie and Mary but to answer the underlying question you're asking is that Mary isn't as innocent as your example would have her seem. Mary doesn't drama just by simply existing; she's attracting drama because she hovers around drama-filled situations, she inserts herself into drama when and where she sees it, she perpetuates the drama and chaos that surrounds her. After a long while of seeing Drama in proximity to Mary, the association has been made. Drama = Mary and Mary = Drama

The only way to break that association is to break the connection to the drama. Steer clear of the drama. Steer clear of the "adversaries." Hold the tongue once in a while. Step back, go for a walk, take a deep breath. Practice getting grounded and centered. Don't rise to the bait. Walk away.

The more vigilant we are at observing our interactions, the more likely we are to recognize our own contributions to the drama whirlwind. Even though we cannot control the actions of others, we can recognize that "If I do this, the other person will likely go ballistic." Recognizing the influence our actions have over the actions of others is critical to the dissolution of the drama vortex.

All that I've said here is just fine and dandy but unless or until we accept that we are at the root of our drama problem AND we make the conscious decision to reduce and eliminate drama from our lives, nothing will ever change. We'll just continue pointing fingers, blaming other people, living in the victim loop, at the center of drama.

Nothing changes until we want it to change and we dedicate ourselves to making those changes happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:20 am 
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I find it interesting though, that instead of upping expectations on jody, that people are promoting for Denim to deal with jody's fouls (maybe, like irl, the choices they make)? I think there are people who boot people who don't meet expectations irl, and there are those who deal with and meet lower expectation levels.... and neither is wrong (or both are wrong to each other), which leads to the problem. In other words, why should Denim have to lower her expectations? I can see she was acting inappropriately as a result of possibly just not wanting to (which I can also be faulted for). Irl, I wouldn't act inappropriately. I would give them a chance, and that might lead to booting them out of my life, and I do that all the time. We all have expectation levels, why assume that Denim's are wrong for her, and that she "should" lower them, instead of promoting to have them raised? This site is "deal with it" territory.

I think maybe the problem with me and with Denim may have to do with expectation levels we don't want to give up. The thing is, I don't meet my own expectation levels either. And I am realizing all sorts of things these days that have to do with where I stand as a result of just observing.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:27 am 
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Ash's post makes me think of the pendulum-swing thing that sometimes happens. To make up some examples:

black - I have to do everything other people want / I have to keep other people happy
white - I'm not going to let anyone else control me, if they don't like what I'm doing that's their stuff
grey - sometimes it's worth giving something up for the sake of a more peaceful life / I can consider someone else's feelings to a point even if they're not considering mine

black - I'm not allowed to have an opinion / other people are right and I'm wrong
white - I have an opinion on this and need to make sure the world knows about it / someone else is saying things that aren't true and I need to make this right
grey - I have my own opinions, and choose to share them when it's effective to do so

I always liked this picture ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:37 am 
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StoneGlow wrote:
grey - sometimes it's worth giving something up for the sake of a more peaceful life / I can consider someone else's feelings to a point even if they're not considering mine



Well, yea, but to a point, isn't this being a proponent for "deal with it", instead of being a proponent for change? How enabling do I want to be?

And these are just thoughts....questions to ponder.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:42 am 
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Aqua, I think your perspective is slightly off of where mine is. Like you're two degrees to the side from where I'm standing, if that make sense.

Each time someone speaks up, we generally try to focus the spotlight on that person with their stuff, the things over which they have control. We've been talking with Denim about Denim's stuff so it's natural to challenge Denim's thoughts, perspectives, actions rather than focusing on someone else's actions.

Make sense?

As for expectation levels, you're right - no one needs to give up the expectation levels they have if they don't want or choose to. There are consequences for every choice we make. Some consequences are happy, enjoyable ones. Others, not so much. If we continue to have extraordinarily high expectations of others, I truly believe we are setting oureslves up for failure and a life of misery and loneliness.

I used to "boot people out of my life all the time" too. And then I realized that I ended up pretty much alone. No one could ever meet the impossibly high levels I set and that left only one person - me. (And have the time, I couldn't even meet those goals either.) So there I was, all alone, miserable because I had no one I could rely on for anything. Everyone was a loser, a slacker, an idiot, an asshole or whatever else.

When I realized that the consequences for my impossibly high expectations were Anger, Frustration and Solitude, I understood that I'd brought those consequences on myself. Other people didn't desert me or think I was an asshole, unworthy, unloveable. I had kicked them out because I couldn't accept that they were flawed human beings. I was alone because I was intolerant of other people.

Once I began to accept that no one's perfect, least of all me, and that everyone bring something to the table, I began to appreciate those small details individuals would bring to the party. So what if Sally isn't the Ultimate Perfect Person? She tells a great joke and she's fun to have at parties. If I stop expecting her to be Everything All The Time and to live up to unreasonable expectations across the board, she's great to have around in certain situations. Likewise, Sharon might be the serious thoughtful one that's rock-solid during a crisis but can totally seem like a depressing wet blanket when I'm in the mood for some spontaneous fun.

Wanting or hoping for Sharon and Sally to perfectly match my moods and expectations at every turn is so unrealistic and impossible, I can hardly believe I used to live like that. I did and I know I did but looking back, I'm gobsmacked at how I used to treat people.

I have friends now that I've known for years. We've had fights, we've had disagreements, we've had bad days, we've had different opinions, we've made different decisions but we're still friends. Allowing people to be who they are is the greatest gift we can give ourselves, and them too of course.

We may only give up our exceedingly high expectation levels of others if or when the consequences we inherit as a result of those expectations become too painful for us to bear. When the cost of changing is less than the cost of staying the way we are.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:26 am 
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Thanks for your post Ash, it was helpful. I believe that my own became high after I broke with my ex, but they had always been higher than average in certain ways, which is why I ended up with an apd in the first place. I lived IN a place surrounded by people with low expectations. I couldn't stay there, or I would not be alive today. I believe that. Which is what led to me upping my own, so I could get out of the area and get to a place where I could stand to exist.

I've lowered mine some. I am allowing people the chance now, at least. I feel like I'm at least a good enough judge of character and I know now how to protect myself enough to do so, but it is scary anyway. And the people here are not disappointing me, in fact, I won't be around them much because I feel as if I am the one that is the disappointment. Now, I'm only a disappointment to myself. :| In other words, I'm realizing that here, I am the one who needs to catch up, whereas I was ahead of the curve before. :| And that is making me feel like crap, but I'm willing to take the challenge...

My expectations are appropriate for what I am aiming for. I won't be alone there, not even nearly. It's a place where, yes, you give up a little here and there, you have tolerance, but it's also a place where you challenge one another (and a Lot of People Do get Booted, heck, I wasn't even allowed access to it until about a month ago, which means I must be making improvements! I beat the crap out of myself after the fact though, and my bf said to knock it off...)

So there's my own assessment of my situation based on what you wrote, Ash.

Where I am going I can't even begin to go without crossing certain obstacles right now...wtf... I'm gonna do it this time. I've got to learn to start making things happen instead of letting them happen to me.


Denim,

Would you consider starting threads anyway, even if jody is annoying to you? Do you think you can just try concentrating on the task at hand, which is your post and gaining something from other's responses, rather than what jody has to say about it or in the thread generally? Do you think you are allowing jody and what other people are choosing to do, distract you? In real, I wouldn't put up with ALOT of the stuff that goes on on this site. But I think to be here, and therefore to use the resources here, it takes an acceptance and a little more tolerance than I am willing to do in real.

These are the things that helped me, it helped me when I realized that I was using these things as a distraction to what I actually needed to be doing to get better. (I still do it sometimes ... I think part of it is that I actually enjoy the emotional highs and lows, and I don't like how it feels to flat-line...it can become an obsession...).

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:36 pm 
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I am not willing to put much more of my personal energy into this issue when it is not effective for me or anyone else who feels they are involved in this issue vicariously.

I get that it is not appropriate for me to expect Jody to leave me alone because Jody has the right to post wherever she wants to post, no matter how people feel about her as a result. She also has the right to wonder why people don't like her or why they ignore her when she makes the choices she does. Jody has been told repeatedly how she can change her behavior to be more likable but she does not want to change who she is and I get that if she is not going to change for anyone else, she certainly is not going to alter her behavior for me!

I get that my best option is to put even more distance between Jody and myself. In the past I have left BPDR, like others have done, but I thought that with the "ignore" feature I could stick it out and still gain some benefit from being here. I had thought that Jody could leave me alone since it is clear that we do not benefit from interacting with each other in any way nor does the community as a whole benefit. I incorrectly believed that Jody could do this for the good of the group, even if she could not do it for me personally.

I am okay with the fact that I am no longer interested in having anything to do with Jody in the future and so I am done dealing with Jody at this point. Since things did not work out the way I had hoped, I am not willing to try again. It is my hope that others can see the futility of suggesting that I continue to "think about" this issue because I am done with it so they can also "move on" and let this issue rest.

I accept that rather than stay and participate fully (white) or leave and don't participate at all (black) I have made the choice to respond to others while not expecting any personal benefit to being here (gray). I have been told that my replies to posts are helpful and I would like to continue to support the rest of the people here I care about (including those who I have had disagreements with in the past because I don't have a problem with any of those people) without needing to leave completely. Perhaps someday things will change and I will be able to participate more fully without having to go to such extremes to avoid one person. Since I don't even have BPD, this is probably not the most appropriate place for me to work on my own stuff anyway.

If the rest of the community is as done with this issue as I am, I suggest we find more valuable ways to contribute now. I don't like to see this drag on and yet I am also at a loss as to how to let it die when others keep bringing it up. I have things I need to get done at home and this is not a productive use of my personal energy at this point. I have done the steps and made my choice so now I need to DO IT as the final step!

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 12:49 pm 
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Well, if this is what you want for now, Denim, I accept that. I thought that possibly sharing what helped me would be helpful for you. I don't think a lot of people want you to leave, I personally think that a lot of your posts are interesting and helpful. I just wish you could be happier with the site, that you could find some peace and acceptance with the environment here as it is. I appreciate you taking the time to hear me out....

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:13 pm 
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Denim, there is no reason why you cannot stay here. You have every right to be here. Just because you don't like one person doesn't mean you should leave. There are people here I dont' like. So I just ignore them. I hate to see you get so worked up about this. It's not necessary. Try to calm down, ignore what you don't like and enjoy your relationships with the people you do like. We all have the right to post and give our opinions. It's not up to me how much someone else posts and/or responds to others. I just take care of myself. It makes life a lot easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:23 pm 
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Thanks Ash for your view. I am seeing grays more and more now. I guess it takes two to tango. So what I wonder is something that my H always throws in my face. For instance, he'll bring up things I did in the past. I don't do them anymore, but he still throws them in my face. I hate when he does that. Is it the same here? What if the person wants to change, but no one believes her? This is all hypothetical, by the way - I'm not talking about any real person here. Anyway, what if they try to change but people still think she's like she was in the past? I guess she has to keep proving to them that she's changed and really doesn't want the drama? So does she do this by ignoring the whole thing, by saying over and over that she's changed, or just by her actions? At what point do you think people will believe her and give her the benefit of the doubt? As I said, my H has been doing this to me for years. No matter what I do, he still brings things up. That's just an example. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 1:59 pm 
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BG, I know you were speaking to Ash here, but I relate to what your saying and thought I could add my two cents....I am NOT discussing the board actions here, rather my own life and the 'drama' within...
Quote:
I guess it takes two to tango. So what I wonder is something that my H always throws in my face. For instance, he'll bring up things I did in the past. I don't do them anymore, but he still throws them in my face. I hate when he does that. Is it the same here? What if the person wants to change, but no one believes her? This is all hypothetical, by the way - I'm not talking about any real person here. Anyway, what if they try to change but people still think she's like she was in the past? I guess she has to keep proving to them that she's changed and really doesn't want the drama? So does she do this by ignoring the whole thing, by saying over and over that she's changed, or just by her actions? At what point do you think people will believe her and give her the benefit of the doubt?

My H has done this too...he kept bringing up the past even though in my mind I had changed and demonstrated that I had changed.

What I have discovered is that for some people (like my H), it takes many, many 'right' actions to undue a 'wrong' one. Trust is a funny thing...it takes years and years to build, but only a day to break.

I have found that if I just kept repeating, by my actions as well as my words, the positive changes I see in myself, my H slowly (very slowly) comes around to my perception of things and sees that I really have changed. It takes A LOT of being in situations I have not handled well in the past, acting appropriately now, and going home and saying 'wow, H, I really handled that differently than I would have before'. I had to actually point it out to him to get him to notice the changes, because in his mind, that is how 'everyone' 'should' respond to the situation at hand. Well, it took a lot of work on my part for me to not feel abandoned, or judged or just reacted on solely an emotional basis or whatever my problems were for any given situation, but that is hard for him to see because he has never felt that way. My actions had to 'prove' my intent to change. Sometimes I had to point out where I was choosing different actions.

At the same time, I had to just let it go. No point arguing with a brick wall, LOL. I had to quit letting it bother me that my H couldn't (or wouldn't) see the progress I knew I was making. So I would just listen when he tried to call me out on something, smile and nod kinda thing. I didn't get upset anymore because I knew his thoughts (fears) were no longer true. I knew that I could talk all I wanted (and I do think it helps if the timing is carefully chosen) trying to force him to see my POV but Showing him I changed was what really made the difference for me and my H. I couldn't keep telling him how much I had changed over and over all the time. I would drive myself nuts not being able to convice someone else of something I knew as true about myself. So, I gave him time. Sometimes I had to just let him make up his own mind. Now, if he gets worried about the way I'm going to react in a situation because of past behaviour, I am able to reason with him. I can say, 'H, how long has it been since I've done x?'. Then he has to think back and he realizes it has been over a year (for most things), so the 'standby BPD behaviour' he is so worried about isn't really the current behaviour. Not that I am perfect--far, far from it--but my H can see by my behaviour that I really am changing. It really is working for us, but it didn't happen overnight and he still questions certain situations. I'm still giving it time and standing behind my actions. I realize that even one 'mistake' or regression causes him to go backwards in his thinking, forget much of the progress. So, it's slow because of course I mess up. But it can be 2 steps forward with only one back.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is it okay?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 2:02 pm 
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Bordergirl wrote:
Denim, there is no reason why you cannot stay here. You have every right to be here. Just because you don't like one person doesn't mean you should leave. There are people here I dont' like. So I just ignore them. I hate to see you get so worked up about this. It's not necessary. Try to calm down, ignore what you don't like and enjoy your relationships with the people you do like. We all have the right to post and give our opinions. It's not up to me how much someone else posts and/or responds to others. I just take care of myself. It makes life a lot easier.


I did not say I am leaving! In fact, what I said was that rather than leave I am instead going to participate on a limited level. Under the circumstances, I believe this is the best option.

This situation has me thinking of something that happened to me when I was in the third grade (my younger daughter's age). This girl kept trying to pick a fight with me because that was the way she tried to show how "tough" she was and I was the new student in the class. I was taught that I was never to start a fight but if someone else started something with me, I had better finish it or my father would "finish" me off (he would beat whatever life out of me was left after the fight). This girl kept circling around me saying "c'mon, hit me right here" while pointing to her chin. I tried to walk away but she kept getting in my face insisting I hit her so I figured that was "provocation" enough to do what she wanted. I hit her once, square in the jaw and she went down for the count (she was actually "out" for more than a count of 10 so I was concerned that I had killed her or something). When she came to, she looked up at me and said, "I can't believe you hit me!" I never did figure out why she kept circling me, not letting me walk away, insisting I hit her, and then stated that she never actually expected me to hit her. I happened to be shorter than everyone else and perhaps she did not expect me to be able to throw a punch.

After that incident, everyone pretty much left me alone (did not pick fights with me) until I was in fifth grade. Then two sixth grade boys (school bullies) knocked over my bike as I rode past them. Rather than cry and run away, I went after them. I beat them both up so they were the ones who ran away from me crying! They never did live down their tarnished reputation following the fact that a fifth grade girl took them both out when they had been trying to maintain such a "tough" image. I never had to "act tough" because I had the ability to protect myself if someone started something with me, regardless of the fact that I was the shortest girl in my class. No one ever messed with me after that.

It is possible I come across as an "easy target" but that impression is deceptive. During one of my stranger rapes, I actually pulled a pocket knife out of my pants pocket (once the guy was done with me and he and his buddy let me get dressed again) and tried to cut the guy's balls off! If there had not been two of them against one of me, it is possible I would have left him bleeding but as it was we all went our separate ways without injury.

I am not one to start things but I will "finish" them when necessary. I would always prefer to work things out in a more amiable manner but when pushed, I will push back. I still don't understand why that comes as such a surprise to people.

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