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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:47 pm 
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I just saw this this afternoon/evening, so I'm reading and taking in/considering all of the viewpoints. :-)


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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:57 pm 
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A thought on the Rules of Engagement.

Now, we've talked about before, and it was mentioned in this thread, that the Rules of Engagement are not message board rules, but guidelines. "Rules" in the sense of personal rules we have for ourselves, if we choose to adopt them. But not something that is, or can be, imposed on us.

Additionally, they are things we are hear to learn. Just like the Four Agreements at the other tools. And notice that the Rules of Engagement are under the "Tools" section of the website. We won't be perfect at it. And when someone suggests to someone else looking at the Rules of Engagement, the idea is (or should be, anyway) that this is a help to the person. Helping them to grow by suggesting a tool that might help them in communication. Unfortunately, even when the person mentioning the ROE truly sees it that way, it's not always obvious to the person they are writing to. It can so easily be heard as an accusation of rule breaking, rather than as a suggestion of a communication tool.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:06 pm 
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My original post in this tread was not meant to be about S/CLs or specific people at all. It was, as I said, about ROEs and general expectations about that sort of stuff on the board. The language in those ROEs seemed a bit contradictory or paradoxical or ironic or something, and that kind of stuff interests and intrigues me. That's why I stay BFuddled. I should not have mentioned the place where I started on this journey as it served no useful purpose and seems to have driven us down a path I was hoping to avoid. Now that we're there, I suppose I'll need to follow the other ROE and see it through. Have some crisis management to deal with away from the computer and will be back to this when I can.


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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:18 pm 
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I started out addressing the Aqua issue since you mentioned it and she felt like you were talking about it, too -- or at least, I though that that particular kerfuffle was what prompted your initial post. I do think I wandered off that precise topic into more general thoughts about board conduct and the ROE, though I had in mind the behavior of S/CLs as well, since I thought that was on your mind. In any event, I don't think I'd change too much of what I wrote, even if it was outrageously long-winded, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:53 pm 
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i have never understood the ROE and never will. esp since its labeled rules..haha.

havent read the roe in ages. i dont think it helps a thing, actually. nice thought, not good in reality type stuff.


someone always brings up hey, thats against the ROE. i know i tried that a few times. it matters not. yes it is, no it isnt, but in the end it matters not.

i used to think ROE meant rules to be abided by on the board, like other boards have rules to follow or one gets in trouble. it isnt that. its misleading, i think. either have rules or dont, ya know? which is none of my business, it isnt my board! lol.

thus, i pay no attention to it anymore.

sari, you are using up valuable board resources!!! hahah....joking.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:08 pm 
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Sari wrote:
I have to admit that there's a lot in Denim's post that I don't agree with. I do think that there are times when two people are just so far apart in terms of their whole psyche and history and experience and learning styles and so forth and so on that effective communication between them is pretty much hopeless. Fortunately we now have the "ignore" function, or one can just have the discipline not to react when the other says or does something that pushes a button. I do not, however, think that the fact that some people here are "slower" learners than others means that we are "allowing" people to stagnate or letting the board as a whole be dragged down. I'm sorry she feels that way.


I was expressing my own feelings in my post and yet I think it is fair to clarify that I have done enough "reality testing" about this particular issue to know that there are quite a few people who also see what I am seeing so it is not my issue alone. It is just one of those Catch 22 situations that comes along in life that we all make the most of because there is no other alternative.

It is likely that I have a harder time ignoring the "pink elephant" than other people do because I tend to take a "problem solving" approach rather than a "problem, what problem?" approach to such issues. I acknowledge that my personal feelings are my stuff and I would not want anyone else to take responsibility for the way I feel. I do use the "ignore" feature and it has been a blessing for me! I am just disappointed that so many people left BPDR before the ignore feature was added to the board.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:16 pm 
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Denim Blue wrote:
Sari wrote:
I have to admit that there's a lot in Denim's post that I don't agree with. I do think that there are times when two people are just so far apart in terms of their whole psyche and history and experience and learning styles and so forth and so on that effective communication between them is pretty much hopeless. Fortunately we now have the "ignore" function, or one can just have the discipline not to react when the other says or does something that pushes a button. I do not, however, think that the fact that some people here are "slower" learners than others means that we are "allowing" people to stagnate or letting the board as a whole be dragged down. I'm sorry she feels that way.


I was expressing my own feelings in my post and yet I think it is fair to clarify that I have done enough "reality testing" about this particular issue to know that there are quite a few people who also see what I am seeing so it is not my issue alone. It is just one of those Catch 22 situations that comes along in life that we all make the most of because there is no other alternative.

It is likely that I have a harder time ignoring the "pink elephant" than other people do because I tend to take a "problem solving" approach rather than a "problem, what problem?" approach to such issues. I acknowledge that my personal feelings are my stuff and I would not want anyone else to take responsibility for the way I feel. I do use the "ignore" feature and it has been a blessing for me! I am just disappointed that so many people left BPDR before the ignore feature was added to the board.


I agree with a lot of your perspective. It seems like this might be a I-see-the-problems and in my case, I'm going to experiment with change (which is a need of mine), vs. a the-community-and-I-are-fine-the-way-they-are (problems, issues, and all), and I, nor any other, really needs to disrupt or change the current system, so I'm going to make sure that doesn't happen. If one is so sure they are doing everything the right way, assuming that everyone here is happy (which I think there could be more space for experimentation, I felt boxed-in, and that was part of my reason to explode), why be here just to play a security role? I'm pro-change, looking for the betterment of everything (and if that means stepping out of the current bounds on occasion just to figure things out and find a better way, I'm willing to do so), push-the-envelope kind of person (and I'm actually only lately figuring this all out, I was oppressed for most of my life, and unhappy). Diversity is key. Both can learn to work together.

Push the envelope: To attempt to extend the current limits of performance. To innovate, or go beyond commonly accepted boundaries.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:22 pm 
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Denim, I respect your right to express your personal opinion. No problem.

I have no doubt that there are others who see what you see and think I'm clueless or full of shit. Such is life. I'm doing the best I can here like everybody else. I just don't have such a pessimistic view of the state of the board that you seem to have. We're just going to have to differ on that for now.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:20 am 
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Sari, I happen to consider my feelings "realistic" rather than "pessimistic" but I suppose my words could have sounded like I was putting down BPDR in a pessimistic manner, although my frustration is not with BPDR as a whole. I was expressing frustration over an issue that comes up periodically for a number of people. You are not the problem so I am not sure what I said that gave you the idea that people see you as "clueless or full of shit" because I don't think I said anything that would lead to that conclusion.

It seems that where we disagree is on the issue of support versus enabling. I don't think it benefits anyone to protect someone from the harsh reality that they are responsible for their own behavior and that other people will respond to them based on their actions rather than with endless empathy. I have taught students in special education and at times I have said to a student "your friends are annoyed right now - are you sure you want to continue acting this way?" Peer pressure can be a powerful tool when it pressures people to act in socially appropriate ways as opposed to enabling inappropriate behavior. Even very young children learn new behavior as a result of interacting with peers in positive ways and they learn to avoid certain behaviors that meet with disapproval from their peers. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that adults can learn from each other in much the same way.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:32 pm 
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Sorry, Denim, I didn't choose my words very well. I didn't mean that you have ever said anything about me being "clueless, etc.," but I guess I felt that if there are others who see what you see about the board as a whole being dragged down by the actions (or inactions, as it may be) of a few, which is not my perception, then I must be pretty blind, hence clueless.

I appreciate your analogy to your special ed students. That can certainly be an effective method at times. I think, though, there are probably certain students who still don't get it, yes? Who may not get it for a long time, then one day something clicks?

If you are a teacher in a classroom, then your resources are certainly limited, and it is much more imperative for you, the teacher, to have some control over a situation, and to use whatever method you have to to make sure a recalcitrant or disruptive student "gets it." And certainly students who are persistently slow to respond or frequently disruptive do impact or bring the class down as a whole, since the teacher cannot use her time to help the more well-behaved or more capable students to move ahead when she's dealing constantly with the "problem children."

The problem I'm having with that analogy, though, is that I think an internet message board, even one with a "therapeutic focus," is a totally different animal than a classroom. Here there are no "teachers," only students who are feeling their way on their own, in fits and starts, by talking things out with each other -- we are mostly responsible for ourselves, we tend to grab helpful bits from one person or conversation and leave a lot of the rest behind as not helpful for our situation, and the relative pace at which we learn varies widely. The Leadership Team aren't really teachers -- we're just sort of moderators. Yes, we try to give help here or there, sometimes directly or sometimes by example -- I think Ash is a great teacher, me not so much -- but a lot of the time (not counting the effort we make refereeing disagreements) we are actually students, too. I know that in six years here I've made some progress, but I also know I'm not "there" yet in terms of where I wish I could be. I'm still learning.

I guess my point is that I'm not sure why one person should worry too much about why another is appearing to be really slow on the uptake, relatively speaking. Because this isn't a classroom, there are no students or individually identified teachers who are responsible for the progress of the whole group according to a lesson plan of some sort, the failure of one or two people out of this large community to move forward (and who sets the pace here?) shouldn't really impact the community as a whole. Those who are quicker, or who may be working on an entirely different workbook altogether, are free to work independently and move forward. It's like in your pothole thread, when there was discussion about those who are working on an A -> Z continuum, and how others may be on a 1 -> 100 continuum, and still others, as ibf said, may be on a path that has no markers at all, which means that they may stay lost and confused for a longer time before somebody finally gets them headed in the right direction. If you know you're working the A -> Z book, can't you kind of bury your nose in it and continue to turn the pages even if somebody else is lost?

You've made some efforts to pull certain people out of their potholes, but for various reasons they keep falling back in. The reasons they fall in have nothing to do with, and don't negate, the efforts you have made to redirect them. I think it's certainly OK to say, OK, I've tried, it's not working, I'm not going to try again. That may not work for a teacher in a classroom, but again, we're not in that kind of learning environment. I don't think it's selfish -- we're all here individually and independently and no one has some kind of huge interest in how the board as a whole moves forward, so we should be free to consider our own needs as primary and the needs of the others as secondary. That's not to say that there's anything *wrong* with stopping to help people out of their potholes, even repeatedly, but it isn't a requirement of board membership. It's generous and helpful and all things good, and most of us do frequently offer guidance and advice and suggestions and so forth, but it's not as if the health of the community as a whole will suffer if we leave a couple of individuals in their potholes while we work on our own stuff.

I was also leery, in your earlier post, about when you related the difficulties of helping those who are repeatedly stuck to a therapist and client. It is totally true that a therapist who is trying to work with a client who is failing to move forward will have to either try different methods to get through to the client, or, in a worst case scenario, tell the client she needs to get another therapist. But, just as we aren't a classroom with a teacher and an agenda and tests at the end to assess our competence, we aren't a therapeutic group in the sense that any of us are professionals who have a firm command of different techniques and know how to tailor those techniques to an individual client's needs. That's way more responsibility than I want anybody here at BPDR to take on. Some here have certainly studied more and have a better handle on different therapies, but I would hesitate to say that any of us are competent as therapists. And this isn't really like group therapy either, where if one member of the group can't or won't participate, then the group as a whole suffers from a failed dynamic that ruins the process for the members as a whole. Again, I see the board more as a bunch of people who get together independently for coffee, they come and go randomly, some are up to speed on what the group has been talking about recently, and others are, for one reason or another, on another planet.

OK, this has gotten really long-winded. I guess I'm struggling with why you are so preoccupied with one or two people here and their own struggles. Are they truly holding you back from doing the work that you want to do for yourself? I know that you're using the ignore feature here, so you're not reading their posts directly, but you seem to be reacting to how other members are responding to them. Can that not be all "their stuff"? If you see a few others seeming to "coddle" them -- which I don't entirely agree with -- can that not be that there are certain folks who relate to them better than you do for one reason or another and not a concern for you? There may be some unhealthy dynamics going on there, possibly some co-dependence, I'll certainly agree to that in some cases, but if you've tried to help by offering your own input and they decide to persist or resist, can't you just leave them all alone to continue their little dance and get back to your own issues? I know that there are some here who understand you better than others -- Ash, for one -- and others who don't, and a few who have loudly protested that the issues you have brought up in the past are not even appropriate for discussion here. I'm probably somewhere in the middle, as I can't relate to some of your problems (I'm fortunate not to have ever suffered the horrific kinds of abuse you have) but I'm not saying that you don't have a place on this board and that you shouldn't be here. I would give the same advice to someone who was triggered somehow by your problems, some of which you have brought up more than once so that maybe some see you as failing to make progress in some ways as well, and that's basically to let it go. Does any of this make any sense to you? I'd like to think I'm sensitive to your concerns, but I honestly don't think there's been a huge negative drag on the board as a whole despite the problems of a few, and I don't think I -- or the other S/CLs, can really "fix" this in a way that would make everybody happy.

I look forward to hearing anything else you want to offer....

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:50 pm 
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Sari, your post was very helpful for me because it does seem that I have the wrong perception of BPDR and that could be leading to my frustration. I tend to approach many things from a teacher perspective because I am a teacher and a lifelong learner with a high appreciation for education. I see my purpose in life as working towards greater understanding, much as others seek "enlightenment" as a goal of living. You are absolutely right in pointing out that my perception is way off kilter if BPDR is more of a "bunch of people who get together independently for coffee, they come and go randomly, some are up to speed on what the group has been talking about recently, and others are, for one reason or another, on another planet." I think I have perceived BPDR as more of a therapeutic classroom! LOL Sadly, I am not a coffee drinker nor do I tend to sit around and make "small talk" with people so it is no wonder I have not been able to see things the way I need to see them in order to have the same sense of content you have here. I am going to have to shift my perspective to more closely match reality so I am not so disillusioned again. Thank you for your detailed explanation because it really is helpful for me to work on changing my own perceptions to more closely match reality.

I don't seem to know why another person's behavior bothers me so much. I think it is because I don't want to be around it and yet it is not something I can distance myself from enough without also distancing myself from all that is good about BPDR. Perhaps I have not "let go" of what BPDR used to be before all the disruptions became so intolerable so that I have this vision in my mind of what I expect from BPDR and it will never be that way again. I think perhaps I need to grieve for what is gone, never to return, and accept that BPDR will not likely meet my expectation because my expectation is unrealistic. I suppose Radical Acceptance would be a good tool for me to use in this process.

I am the only one holding myself back from making the progress I need to make and it is true that I am still reluctantly trying to grasp exactly what it is I am dealing with, a theme I have struggled with for so many years that the confusion can sometimes become too overwhelming for me to move ahead. It has been helpful for me to just share about my diagnosis and not get a "freak out" type of response from people, even if it is hard for them to relate to me knowing that I dissociate to the extent that I seem to. My greatest challenge is allowing myself into my head at the same time my mind pushes me out in self-defense. It is much like watching a scary movie and closing your eyes during the scary parts so that too much of the story is missing for it to make any sense. I have to be willing to look at things I don't want to see and that is what holds me back. Like everyone else, I need to experience a level of safety in order to push myself beyond my comfort zone and the constant disruption tends to feel unsafe to me for some reason.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:00 pm 
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Hi Denim -- I meant to get back to you before this but it's taken me a while to take care of some other things.

I don't know if my analogy about BPDR is/was a good one. It's definitely more that just small talk that goes on here, and there *is* teaching and (hopefully) therapeutic interaction. (And you don't have to like coffee!) I guess I was just reacting to a vision of BPDR as a classroom, with one or more particular teachers, a planned agenda, and a need to keep the slower or recalcitrant students up to speed, because I don't really think that fits. And I don't think it's group therapy, either, because the group is too large and too fluid, with different people dropping in and out within the board as a whole and also within individual threads. So I don't know *how* to describe it, lol.

I think the majority of people here are "lifelong learners" to some degree. At least most everyone who sticks around here for any length of time is trying to learn more about him/herself -- how we got to where we are, how and why we react to certain situations the way we do, how we can gain enough control and comfort with our emotions, thoughts and actions to be able to function more effectively in our own little worlds. But everybody's story is different -- we're all using different text books, we're in different grades, some want to go to graduate school and others will be happy if they can scrape through with a GED. There is definitely no one size fits all here, and it's going to inevitably lead to frustration for any of us who need others to learn at the same pace.

Working toward greater understanding, or "enlightenment," is a really good goal, and not just for ourselves. A lot of us have a desire to share what we've learned with others so that they may enjoy the benefits of greater understanding along with us. But as much as that is a good and altruistic thing, it doesn't always work, because there are always going to be people who are unable to move along with us. Maybe they're working on a different issue at the moment, and can't or don't want to shift their focus. Maybe they're still reading at a 2nd grade level when the curriculum is at a high-school level. Maybe they're the special-ed kids who are too easily distracted or have impulse or anger control issues. And maybe they don't like or trust the teacher, whether with good reason or not, and they're not going to absorb the message because they've closed their eyes and ears to it.

So even though I think it's good to want to help others along with myself, I don't like to get wrapped up in expectations that it's going to work. If it does, great. If it doesn't, oh well, I tried. If I've offered advice or support and it's been ignored or rejected for some reason, I move on. There's so much I need and want to still learn for myself, and there *are* others who are moving ahead too, and I try to focus on that and let those who can't or won't step forward stay where they are.

I'm curious about your view of "what BPDR used to be," and why it is gone and never to return. From my perspective, there have always been disruptions here of one kind or another, and in fact they used to be worse than they are today. Remember back in the days when we had "Fanning the Flames," where people who disagreed with each other, or worse, could go to fight it out, no holds barred, flame away? Early on, we used to let anybody who wanted to chime in on those threads, not just the two who started it, to join the fray, so they often became absolutely vicious, screaming, anger fests. Then somewhere along the line, we decided to limit the discussion, if you could call it that, to just the two main characters, and everybody else had to stay out of it, and that calmed things down a notch. And finally, we progressed to Conversation Corner, where we ask two people who are in disagreement to work toward conflict resolution, preferably politely and respectfully. Does it always work? No, obviously not. But the improvement in how we manage discord is pretty huge, in my opinion. Aqua and I got pretty angry with each other last week, but as we talked in CC, the fury subsided, our tone got more respectful and empathetic, and things pretty much resolved. We're never going to be able to avoid conflict here. It's too large a community for that, and we're pretty much all struggling with mental health issues that make it more difficult to manage stress and anger to begin with, so the shit is still going to hit the fan from time to time. But I do believe we've moved in a much healthier direction. So what, to you, is intolerable, and what loss are you grieving? What expectation do you have that we're not meeting? I'm not asking because of some defensive stance where I want to "set you straight," I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious, and if there's something you think we should be doing way differently, I'd like to hear it. I can't say whether it would be achievable, but suggestions are always welcome.

I totally respect your personal struggle, and that you need to protect yourself from too much confusion or anything that you find overwhelming. I think there is, and should be, a place for you here at BPDR, and I'd like to hope that you find it safe, at least most of the time, to post here about what's going on with you. There are going to be people who just can't relate, or who disagree with how you choose to manage your life, but I haven't seen too much "freak out" lately. I'm sorry that you feel the occasional disruptions, or the few people who trigger you reliably, cause you trouble or make you think you shouldn't be here. I wish I could tell you we could make it all perfect -- unfortunately I think that's an unlikely outcome. But I think there is enough opportunity for each of us to learn, both on and off the board, and to share what we've learned with each other, and that this is mostly a pretty good place.

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I can take it in small doses, but as a lifestyle I found it too confining. -- Jane Wagner


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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:28 pm 
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Sari, I want to let you know that I apprecitate your reply and I would like to reply when I have more time. I got home late after picking up my older daughter from the camp she is working at and I have to pack my bag and a bag for my younger daughter before I can go to bed with the additional challenge of our washer being broken so finding clean clothes may be a bit challenging at this point. I won't get another chance to look at this again until the weekend so I plan to get back to it then. If it no longer shows up as "new posts" I might forget to look for the thread and if that happens I want you to know that my intent is to come back to this so you are welcome to reply and I will get a notice in my inbox that there is a reply to the thread and that will most likely remind me that I have unfinished business here. I wish I had more time right now but I have to be up and starting my day tomorrow at 6:00 am so I need to get some sleep sometime before then.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:06 pm 
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No problem, Denim, take your time. I hope you get some sleep.

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I can take it in small doses, but as a lifestyle I found it too confining. -- Jane Wagner


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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:48 pm 
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Sari, I have some time to reply while I am waiting for a repair person to show up and fix our washer this afternoon. We were in a parade this morning so I haven't had time to get back to this until now. Hopefully I can put my thoughts together without too many distractions.

I used the teacher and therapist analogy myself because that is how I relate best to what BPDR has to offer but I know that not everyone is here to learn and grow in the same way that I want to learn and grow. I have taught special education so I am very aware of what it takes to teach high school Biology at a second grade reading level - it is far more work for the teacher than it is for the student! Also, my "area of expertise" is working with students with behavioral and emotional disabilities so I find it less rewarding to work with students with developmental delays, having less understanding for what causes mental retardation and how to teach students to compensate for their lower level of intellectual functioning. I am more effective in working with students when I understand how they think so it is more difficult and frustrating for me when I don't comprehend a person's mentality. I have actually had students ask me "why should I work for an A when a D is passing?" and I see people here who seem to prefer to take the "softer, easier way" than to do the work required to reach a higher level of achievement. I am the kind of person who strives for 100% so I set high expectations for myself. I don't expect others to work at 100% but it is frustrating to see those who put in their 60% and think they deserve a medal of honor. Perhaps I look at the continuum of recovery as a percentage towards completion rather than going from A to Z in a linear manner.

Sari wrote:
So what, to you, is intolerable, and what loss are you grieving? What expectation do you have that we're not meeting?

It used to be accepted that this was a place where we would be challenged to learn and use more healthy behaviors. When a few people took on a "victim mentality" in response to that practice, it changed what I thought was an effective approach. People here have challenged me in very healthy ways when I was stuck in my own rut and I value that insight because it helped me see things outside of my own way of thinking about something. What I have seen interfere with that process is a "how dare you ask me to look at something in a way I have never seen things before" when the way a person sees reality is highly dysfunctional. When the rest of the community steps back and allows those dysfunctional behaviors to continue unchecked because the community is no longer able to challenge that person effectively and must therefore "walk on eggshells" instead, the behaviors do not get challenged and the person is enabled in their dysfunction. People need to be willing to accept challenges and work through them with an open mind if they are going to make any progress at all rather than to expect their behavior to go unchallenged.

It used to be that those who caused the most disruptions made up a lower percentage of overall posts so that there was plenty of other healthy stuff going on with some minor drama in the background. When a disruptive person posts excessively, the drama ends up being the center attraction and the healthy stuff ends up lost in the clutter of self-indulgent posts. It throws the entire board out of balance and gives the appearance that BPDR is centered more on the disruptions than on taking steps towards healthy, happy living. I don't mind the occasional drama but I would rather focus my attention on the more positive interactions that take place here when people don't have to work so hard at dodging the disruptions. So many people have decided that it is not worth wading through the muck anymore and I miss having those people around because they were the ones who gave BPDR value in the past. I have had to leave at times, too, and so have others who still post here but we keep coming back hopeful that BPDR will regain the value it once had for us (I can only speak for those who I know have left for the same reasons I did since there are others who have left for entirely different reasons).

I think that the addition of the tools has been a huge benefit to the board and yet I see those tools misused and that bothers me as well. When we say to "own our own stuff" we are talking about something we each do in our own minds as a practice in "separation of stuff" and yet I have seen it used in ways that serve to discount what people are saying as in "that is your stuff and I won't allow the message to sink in because I am too defensive to listen right now." The same thing happens with "don't take things personally" so that instead of using it to regulate our emotions, it gets used as an unhealthy defense against good advice. Not only does twisting the tools serve as a disadvantage to the person doing the twisting, it warps them for others who do not understand the true intent of the tools. Some people are so unable to take responsibility for their own actions that everything becomes an exercise in defending their dysfunction rather than an exercise in how to overcome using poor coping behaviors. When someone constantly uses the past to justify behaviors in the present, that person has no hope for a future any different because the person is too busy trying to claim "rightness" to learn from past or present mistakes.

I need to add that I agree that BPDR is "mostly a pretty good place" and there are lots of things that work well. I keep coming back because I know that BPDR has a lot to offer myself and others. Perhaps what I am seeing is more of an "impotence" so that it is merely a matter of allowing BPDR to be as effective as I know it can be. There have been many changes for the best over the years, such as the transition from Fanning the Flames to Conversation Corner, as already mentioned. I suppose I don't speak about those things that are working with the same passion I speak against those things that are not working because they don't need to be changed in any way. I would like to see BPDR function at its best at all times and yet I understand that some things are beyond our control. Although I tend to be somewhat of a perfectionist, I don't expect BPDR to be perfect in every way. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Sari, after responding I realized that our comments back and forth might have been better voiced in Conversation Corner. I hope that I have not hijacked this thread with our side discussion. Please split off my replies if they do not belong in this thread. Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:27 pm 
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Denim Blue wrote:

Sari wrote:
So what, to you, is intolerable, and what loss are you grieving? What expectation do you have that we're not meeting?


It used to be accepted that this was a place where we would be challenged to learn and use more healthy behaviors. When a few people took on a "victim mentality" in response to that practice, it changed what I thought was an effective approach. People here have challenged me in very healthy ways when I was stuck in my own rut and I value that insight because it helped me see things outside of my own way of thinking about something. What I have seen interfere with that process is a "how dare you ask me to look at something in a way I have never seen things before" when the way a person sees reality is highly dysfunctional. When the rest of the community steps back and allows those dysfunctional behaviors to continue unchecked because the community is no longer able to challenge that person effectively and must therefore "walk on eggshells" instead, the behaviors do not get challenged and the person is enabled in their dysfunction. People need to be willing to accept challenges and work through them with an open mind if they are going to make any progress at all rather than to expect their behavior to go unchallenged.



Thank you for posting this, Denim. Great synopsis of what is actually occurring.

I just threw in the towel and said "screw it". If you do care about changing it for your own good and everyone else's, it seems like then everyone wonders why you care. LOL. "Stop caring! Fix it so you don't care, and leave us alone with our dysfunctional behaviors!" and "Maybe if you didn't have <these problems in communication>, I would listen." LOL. It must be my problem to care about changing it and improving things. Actually, the healthy people I know help people solve problems all the time. They enjoy giving. But the people actually want their problems solved lol. I've found that a lot of people here can't even see their own realities, much less change them.

I'm not going to walk on eggshells, but I am going to ignore and keep going. To turn a blind eye is unhealthy to me, I lived it for 30 years, in a dysfunctional place called the Southern US. But I'm going to do it because it's not worth it to me to try to point it out or argue with a defensive person continuously. They'll change when they are ready to, if that ever happens.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:38 pm 
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Hi Denim -

It's taken me a few days to get back to this... I'm going to leave this conversation here for the time being, though if ibf wants at some point to revisit his thread and get it back to his original intent, then I'll do something about it.

I was really interested in your exchange with Ann in your "Informed Choices" thread. I think she said a lot of what I was trying to say about the differences between a true teaching environment like a classroom and a peer-oriented group like a message board, only I wasn't so effective at explaining it. At any rate, you seemed to understand what she was getting at, and I'm glad.
Denim wrote:
I need to stop feeling responsible for others and instead allow them to take responsibility for themselves. When they fail, it has nothing to do with me and I should be able to view their failure as an essential learning experience rather than to take on the responsibility of teaching them be successful. If a person never gets it, that is not my problem. I just need to keep my sights on my own goals and not worry about anyone else.
Yes!! That's what I was trying to suggest. I think when you can do this, you will find some of the people who have frustrated you here to be less of a problem for you. There may still be some who will continue to try to get through to them, for various different reasons, but it does not have to be you if you have tried and not made progress and to continue to try would cause you discomfort and derail your work on your own health and welfare. (I also really loved what Ann said about the 12-step slogan and the response of "good luck with that" when a person with whom you've shared a concern and a suggestion for a better approach for a problem rejects the advice.)

I agree with you that there are/have been people here who are stuck in a "victim mentality.' I think there always has been some of that, but most people who are not willing to let go of it end up leaving the board after a while because they get tired of being called on their dysfunction. When someone chooses to stay here but doesn't make much progress despite being offered help repeatedly, I understand that that can seem disruptive to the board as a whole. I guess I just prefer not to see it that way. I mean, I know it's sometimes obnoxious to see the same scenario played out over and over again, but I have choices as to how to respond, from continuing to offer advice to just totally ignoring it. I don't necessarily make the same choice every day -- it depends on whether I think I have something relevant or new to say, and also what my own frame of mind is. My primary responsibility is to myself, and so if I feel that engaging in one of these rather circular discussions is not going to be helpful to me and my own mental health, I just stay out of it.

I don't see that choosing to step back from a dysfunctional person for my own benefit is "walking on eggshells." I'm not altering my behavior or subverting aspects of my life in a negative way to avoid conflict or make it easier for an unhealthy person to stay that way. I agree that a lot of unhealthy people won't make the changes they need to make without being challenged, but I don't necessarily see it as my responsibility to appoint myself to the role of challenger on a constant basis. Yes, I want to help people, but I'm not going to do it if it harms me. That might be selfish, but I've had such a struggle getting myself to a healthier state of mind, and I'm not willing to go backwards. I don't see BPDR as a family to the extent that we're locked into certain roles with each other. I see that as a boundary issue, much like the teacher/student dynamic that you and Ann were talking about.

I know that sometimes disagreements between people have a way of taking over the board for a short time, and often there are the same cast of characters involved, and it really is a big distraction to those who want to keep working on their own stuff without having to "wade through the muck." I don't know that it's really that much more frequent or drastic than it used to be. And I agree that sometimes the tools are misused and there are those who will twist the intent of the tools to justify their dysfunction to themselves or to shift the blame. I guess I can only suggest, again, that you set up some healthy barriers for yourself in terms of intervention/self-care, and try to let go what you cannot fix.

I do hope BPDR remains "mostly a pretty good place" for you. I don't go to other message boards with any regularity, but over the years so many people have commented that this board, for all it's imperfections, runs way better than most.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:16 pm 
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It was probably the combination of threads that led me to the realization that my teaching mentality is wrong to carry over to BPDR. It is something I am going to work on changing now that I see how it is detrimental to my interactions here.

Quote:
I know it's sometimes obnoxious to see the same scenario played out over and over again, but I have choices as to how to respond, from continuing to offer advice to just totally ignoring it.


The "ignore" feature has definitely helped. My hope is that some day I won't need to use that particular crutch anymore but for now it keeps me on my feet and I am grateful for it.

Quote:
I'm not altering my behavior or subverting aspects of my life in a negative way to avoid conflict or make it easier for an unhealthy person to stay that way. I agree that a lot of unhealthy people won't make the changes they need to make without being challenged, but I don't necessarily see it as my responsibility to appoint myself to the role of challenger on a constant basis.


Although it is easier for me to let others do the "dirty work" while I use the "ignore" feature, I can't ignore the way an individual impacts the community. An individual person would have to be completely invisible for me to be completely unaffected and some people insist on being seen more than others. I am comfortable with allowing others to be the voice of reason but that does not mean that I am comfortable with the visible interactions that are centered around one individual. There is no way for me to be a part of a community and not be affected by what takes place within the community. I just have to use radical acceptance to tolerate the problem rather than to become invested in solving the problem when it is not my problem to solve.

Quote:
I guess I can only suggest, again, that you set up some healthy barriers for yourself in terms of intervention/self-care, and try to let go what you cannot fix.


As a teacher my students come first but here I can take care of myself first and not feel so responsible to other people. It feels too selfish to focus on self-care but then it seems that interventions that aim to help others are just as selfish in other ways, according to recent discussion on that topic. I imagine that is how the idea of "informed choices" and the rules of engagement collided in this thread for me!

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:26 am 
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Sounds good, Denim!! :D

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