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 Post subject: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:38 pm 
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I've been stewing about some of the replies and shots fired at Aqua during the past twenty four, some of which to my way of thinking were seriously out of line... and so I was reading some of that stuff again and came to Candle's suggestion that the motives might not fit the ROE so I went to see what they said...

Now I'd like to hear a couple takes on this question... I have no particular views on it, I don't think.. maybe I do... but want to hear what the sense perhaps of the S/CL group and others is... ok.. what I want to hear is ... (and to make it feel safe, I agree in advance not to engage in debate or judgment about any replies I might get...)

What the hell do you mean by this???

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Do I spend more time pointing out other people's issues than just giving empathy?
Does this mean that "just giving empathy" is a more effective, better thing to do than spending time pointing out other people's issues? Does this mean that pointing out other people's issues is bad when we write so often about how we're supposed to "call" each other on our stuff and issues??? I'm confused about what this tells me to do and not to do.

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If so, it may be that you are just cranky. If it comes to that, do yourself a favor and take a little break from the community or other places that tend to agitate your latent crankiness.
OK, so if I spend more time working with people on their issues than I spend just giving empathy it may mean I'm just cranky? That I need to take a break? So the way to not be seen as cranky and needing to take a break is to spend more time "just giving empathy." than working on people's. Is that it? Hmmm.. I could swear I read some stuff from the leadership group some years back that suggested empathy was nice but we needed to focus on change and behavior and thought patterns and making them healthy. I could swear I read that. Is this statement suggesting that if I focus my work that way it would be because I'm too cranky?

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Finally, let's try to give each other the benefit of the doubt. For all the drama some of us have seen here (and elsewhere) over the months and years, we would have to admit that relatively few people post anything with malicious intent. It might help to start with the premise that, agreement or not with the point, the vast majority of people we interact with mean well.
(Sarcastically uttered "ohhhhh" about highlight, my add, my bad.) Now this one actually makes a bit of sense to me. A very good principle. However, I have to ask, does this principle apply only to the person who is working issues more than giving empathy, or does it also apply to the person who confronts that person about what they've been doing? It can be hard to tell. I usually see a lot of politeness and decorum and sometimes even see some compassion. But, I don't often see much benefit of the doubt, so I'm wondering if and how it applies in that case.

Thanks in advance. This may all seem like sour grapes, sarcasm or whatever. But it's not. I read that stuff and my reaction was really.... "hey... wtf is this stuff all about????" It actually didn't make much sense to me given what I've seen here the past couple years.

OK.. having read it all again, I have to admit.. it IS more a sarcastic statement than a legitimate question. But there are legitimate questions within, so if you wanna take a stab at one or more, I really would appreciate it.

Thanks...


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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:52 am 
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I seem to recall a saying support without a recovery focus is enablement. However, at the same time, focusing on someone else's stuff without empathy is being a jerk. (Not, I'm not thinking of any one in particular. I'm not personalizing it.)

If I'm going to help you, I need to be able to see your perspective. If I'm not seeing your perspective, then I might be spouting off stuff to you that just isn't true. Or, alternatively, I may be right, but be expressing myself in a way that you can't hear.

Because to give you helpful feedback, I need to understand your perspective. Yeah, it's okay sometimes to throw out an idea as a possibility even if we don't get where the other person is coming from. But as a humble suggestion, not like we think we know better than the person we are talking to.

In order to be able to call someone on their stuff, I have to be able to see their perspective.

The distinction between empathy and sympathy here is important. Giving empathy is NOT the same as giving sympathy. I would guess it means having empathy, and showing it so the other person can see. Empathy = understanding what the other person is feeling. I would say more broadly, we need to understand their perspective. I can't call you on your stuff if I can't see what your stuff is. I can tell you what I see, but that's something different than calling you on your stuff.

And there's also lots of other help we give that's more than just sympathy, but isn't pointing our their issues. And, again, empathy, understanding, should be part of the picture.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:14 am 
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ibfuddled wrote:
However, I have to ask, does this principle apply only to the person who is working issues more than giving empathy, or does it also apply to the person who confronts that person about what they've been doing?


I was wondering that myself. It seems like a CL thinks they have a license to be rude, come down on people, and show no empathy in the name of, "I need to nip those bad behaviors in the bud." I'm seeing a sense of entitlement here. And she's also not listening to feedback on that issue, either.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:22 am 
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Aqua, there is no sense of entitlement. The S/CLs manage the board. Period. We are not ordinary members in that regard by the fact that the board needs organization and Ash chose the S/CLs she saw fit to manage the board. I know some folks on here have a problem with authority and stuff like this comes up now and again because of it. Bottom line is the S/CLs manage the board and if it's being disrupted, it's our duty to bring an end to the disruption.

I find it funny that you are so up in arms about rudeness and arrogance in others when those have seemed to be your major issues over the last few days. I hope you turn the mirror towards yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:35 am 
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Trinity wrote:
Aqua, there is no sense of entitlement. The S/CLs manage the board. Period. We are not ordinary members in that regard by the fact that the board needs organization and Ash chose the S/CLs she saw fit to manage the board. I know some folks on here have a problem with authority and stuff like this comes up now and again because of it. Bottom line is the S/CLs manage the board and if it's being disrupted, it's our duty to bring an end to the disruption.

I find it funny that you are so up in arms about rudeness and arrogance in others when those have seemed to be your major issues over the last few days. I hope you turn the mirror towards yourself.


Yes, but I am admitting that mine needs change, if you hadn't noticed, in any of the cc's.

I happen to think management can take place without rudeness, coming down on people, and showing a lack of empathy. After all, it's kindof hard to listen to someone tell me not to do something that they are currently doing, and telling me they have a right to. It's not effective. All of the CL's don't do this. I think it's unnecessary and not going by the Roe, either.

And I'm not saying I don't need improvement or haven't made mistakes, that's the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:42 am 
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empathy---the projection of one's own personality into the personality of another in order to understand the person better; ability to share in another's emotions, thoughts, or feelings

sympathy--Sympathy should not be confused with empathy (more than simply the recognition of another's suffering, empathy is actually sharing another's suffering, if only briefly).

i think some here were trying to get aqua to see the difference in telling another something vs suggesting it. about the same thing the mods were trying to explain to me not long ago. telling comes across as orders, not suggestions. esp comparing "i do this better" vs " how could you see another approach to x--i have tried this in the past with great results"

its about how its worded to get our view across in the best possible way so the other will hear it. many times none of us are aware how we sound and need it pointed out.

i have had it pointed out to me, many times, and for a long time i resisted it as being picked on. how stupid i was. and others see it as me being babied. the opposite views on that is just plain funny. it was neither, it was help being offered. but we saw/see it thru our filters. that is why how we word things to others is so important. we all have filters, ibf you said how you saw something and that was thru your own filter also.

by saying we spend more time pointing out anothers flaws rather than empathy, it means we state something rather than word it where its useful. most people do not want to hear "you did this, i dont like it , and i do this so you should do this also". they appreciate hearing " it sounds like what you did isnt working, maybe you could try this" which works out better.

comunication. how its worded.

besides, unless we temper our words, we dont KNOW how someone feels and we have no clue how to live their lives for them. we cant tell another how to live. only offer suggestions or views than we found helpful for ourselves.

i have noticed on here, and indeed it may be part of bpd things, few of us take "orders or preaching" well. i know why i dont, in my case, but not why others dont. as soon as a poster begins with "i do this and you need to do that" most here tune out. we are desperately, some of us, trying to learn to walk on our own and the last thing we need is another telling us how to live and how wrong we are without it being tempered with care. some are simply so afraid of watching another screw up that it triggers them to try to force another into their mold to avoid feeling the outcomes. "if that person feels the outcome, then i will have to face my feelings also and i cant do that" so they work hard to make others live like they are.

its ok to fall on our ass ourselves. some of us have not been allowed that. its a great gift to give. just be there to offer a hand to pull the other up once they fall. it doesnt have to mean facing it again when WE fell on our asses.

well, just some thoughts. take keep or toss! jody

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 12:12 pm 
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interesting discussion.. a few people have made some great points about what it takes to get a point across...

as far as ROE's go... seems interpretation is often if not always open
which was supported in some prior posts by mangement, i believe, saying they arent rules but rather guidelines (and I think the ps -subject to change and interpretation- was never inserted)


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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:11 pm 
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I have seen that it can be difficult to approach certain people because of their strong defenses so that my words would fall on deaf ears if I chose to care enough about them to offer suggestions or advice. I have just had to use the "ignore" feature because it allows me to allow someone else to be herself without it interfering with my ability to be here for myself. The trouble is that when so many people ignore such behaviors, it pretty much gives a person "permission" to act in ways that are not going to lead them down the path of recovery. In all fairness, a person is allowed to continue making the same mistakes over and over again for years and years, but I don't think it is Ash's intent to allow people to stagnate here so that the site becomes stagnate as well.

Confrontation can be a good thing because that is often what it takes for someone to see the error of their ways. If we all do the "it's okay for people to act in a Borderline manner because this is a site for people recovering from BPD" then no one would recover and we would just be enabling each other. There are other sites out there that do that - BPDR has always been different and that is what keeps many of us here. The enabling is not effective but then neither is offering suggestions to someone who is too defensive to work on change. It has been said in the past that if BPDR is not the right place for someone, they are free to find another place where they can get the sort of feedback they are looking for and yet some people who don't like the way BPDR works insist on staying anyway and using up resources in an attempt to make BPDR bend to their demands. If we are choosing to be here, I think it is fair to say that we must be willing to take peer support and feedback together and expect to be "called out" for acting in ways that are clearly not a part of healthy, happy living.

It should not take hearing the same message repeatedly for years before it sinks in and yet there seems to be this idea that with enough empathy a person will eventually hear the message and decide to change. What happens is that with enough complaining about being picked on unfairly, the community gives up on a person and only a few mods are left trying to do something because they have an additional role to fill as moderators. When the rest of the community falls silent, there is not much work happening anymore except for a few people who demand more attention in attention-seeking ways that should not be enabled.

I don't think rudeness should be tolerated and yet sometimes the belief that someone is acting in a rude manner can be a person's perception that does not fit with another person's intent. For some reason, strong messages seem to come across as rude and yet weak messages are ineffective. It leaves people in a double bind of "damned if I do and damned if I don't" so that the person on the "hot seat" is not the one who really needs to be in that place of discomfort in order to process a particular message. I think it is fair to say that when one person complains that everyone is always telling her things she doesn't like to hear, she is turning a deaf ear on everyone who is trying to help and deciding to continue in the insanity of doing things the same way and expecting different results. If a person wants to continue with the same ineffective behaviors, that is fine but then that person should not be defended against the natural consequences (people expressing that they are annoyed with the person's behaviors) with coddling.

Sometimes it does take those who are further on the path of recovery to speak out and yet those tend to be the most silent voices because they are recovered enough that they are no longer here much when their own self-work does not require as much interaction with people who are less recovered since they want to be held to a higher standard than someone who is newly in recovery. I am sure all good therapists know that treating clients the same is not fair to the client and that the goal of therapy is to help someone grow. If a client was visiting a therapist for many years and expecting the therapist to enable them in their behavior, I am sure the therapist would not want to keep working with that client either because there are people who seek therapy in order to make changes in their lives so that they can be more effective. The assumption with our active involvement at BPDR is that we are looking for ways to be more effective in our lives so expecting peers to put up with behaviors that a therapist would find intolerable is not in line with the intent of a therapeutic community.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:22 pm 
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I have been away for a while because I did not deal well with the way some things were worded to me. I do believe now that the intent was good, but because of the way the message was worded, I could not hear it. I have been reading the board since I stopped posting, and I believe I have learned more by reading and not posting. Quite an eye-opener!

I personally do not believe that people are coddled here. I think for some people it takes a while, sometimes a long while, for a message to reach them. It's not because they dont' want to hear it. It may be that the message was worded in a way that didn't jibe with that person's style of learning, or it was sent (or interpreted) in a threatening way to that person. Unfortunately, here on BPDR, and on the Internet in general, we do not have the luxury of eye-contact and facial cues. So we just have words to go by.

I know for me, I do not do well with orders or commands. I don't like hearing what others may feel I am doing wrong. But I do want to learn - I just have my own way of learning. We all process information differently.

If someone comes across to me in an arrogant manner - "I do things this way and you should do that too" - my ears will close up. But if I sense that the person really cares and does not have an agenda or an ax to grind, I will open up to them and their suggestions. Again, the word is suggestion. Not orders.

Yes, I tend to immediately go on the defensive if I feel someone is attacking me. But we must all remember why we're here. We have problems. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here. For some, it takes years and years to tackle their problems. There are many reasons for this. I also don't approve of coddling. But I also believe that there's a decent way to talk to people to get your message across. People have used the word empathy. I also use the word respect.

If I don't understand what someone is trying to tell me, it's not because I'm obstinate. It's because I truly don't understand. I might need more clarification. But I want to do the work. That's why I'm here. I personally have memory problems and may not remember what someone said to me a few months ago or a year ago. But I try as hard as I can. I think most of us do.

As I said, there's a way to get your message across without attacking or seeming uncaring. Let's have a little respect for each other and remember why we're here. From what I've seen over the past few months, the moderators are trying their best to be fair. I have not seen any of them favor anyone. I do see them stepping in when they think boundaries have been crossed.

Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:25 pm 
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there is a few ideas i want to throw out.

none of us heal at the same rate or with the same ways. i gather i am one of the annoying ones who heal slower than most. well, it isnt cause i chose to. but if other healed people who had mental illness cant relate and accept that, then i would suggest they reread their own stuff. if my or another stubborness or lack of progress at times bugs someone, then they have forgotten part of their own healing knowledge.

second, the resources of the board are there to use and at the discretion of the owner. the owner can allocate resources any way he/she chooses.

third, i know it is frustrating when someone is going back over a thing another has learned. i am in a DV group in my town and we have some rookies, as i call them, who dont know a thing about what i have learned for 4 yrs. it could be frustrating, but i was there once. i was new online once and didnt know squat about computers. i was new at parenting once, and knew nothing about babies. i was new at recovery once and knew less than nothing about it. we all were new at one time with something. we needed the patience to learn and to ask stupid questions and use up someones time. that is gonna happen with peer to peer groups.

one can call another on something compassionately. its easy. its also easy to call someone disrespectfully and meanly. (meanly?) thats each's choice. which will be heard? isnt being heard the basis of doing it? if it isnt, then its the persons issue and not the one who might need it. i think that may be part of what the ROE suggests. if you reply out of disrespect, because it annoys YOU, it isnt for any reason but yourself. if you reply to help, out of empathy, it is for them as well as you. to put it simply, who is it for? i daresay sometimes we all couch "i was trying to help" in ways that honestly, we werent trying to help at all. not another, maybe only ourselves. i been guilty of that.

the word confrontation is in the eye of the beholder, unfortunately, i think. nothing tells us how to confront. its our choice. and we have to stop and ask, is it our business? how to confront so it will be heard? confrontation done disrespectfully is not anyones right.

disrespect--for us.
respect--for another.

just some ideas....take, sort, toss! oops crossed with BG* my bad.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:22 pm 
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I am most impressed and grateful for all that I find in these responses. Woefully (???) I find myself disagreeing with and objecting to quite a lot of it. My bad. Someone asked me in PM what was "going on" with the board that prompted me to post this thread. I don't know how to answer that.

But what I think might be the burr under my saddle is my sense that this has become a place of contention rather than a place for recovery and learning. At first I thought it might be a matter of who we all are. Now I think it's more a matter of design. It's really quite natural for conversations to go this way. That's the way we do it, with the added safety of anonymity freeing us of certain inhibitions that might limit our comments in public.

So, while I disagree and object with stuff in these responses, I am also most grateful for them. Because I assume that each one is offered as a gift, an opportunity to learn and to advance my recovery. So now the challenge is upon me to treat them that way. The way I want to try is to acknowledge each, and to find ONE THOUGHT in each that I can carry around for a while as a token for learning and see what grows from it.

So here we go...

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Because to give you helpful feedback, I need to understand your perspective. Yeah, it's okay sometimes to throw out an idea as a possibility even if we don't get where the other person is coming from. But as a humble suggestion, not like we think we know better than the person we are talking to.

In order to be able to call someone on their stuff, I have to be able to see their perspective.
Ellen. Wow! At first I didn't get what you were saying. It was all very familiar and nothing I couldn't agree with, but somehow I wasn't "getting it". But I see how this point has applied to my life and my feeble attempts at empathy for decades. When I've rushed to my own ideas, it's really my own self interest I'm peddling. Most often that happened with my kids. Not only is it true that we have to be able to see their perspective to call them on their stuff... but it's also true that if we're stuck in our own perspective, it's literally impossible to do that so we would all be better served to wait until the perspective is clear. Wow.
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It seems like a CL thinks they have a license to be rude, come down on people, and show no empathy in the name of, "I need to nip those bad behaviors in the bud." I'm seeing a sense of entitlement here.
Having seen this force at work close up, I'm going to use the label "responsibility" rather than "entitlement" while admitting that at times there could be an element of that at play. But by what I've seen, it's more a matter of responsibility (often unwelcome) at work. But the point is well made... whether it's a sense of responsibility or a sense of entitlement driving a response, I need to get clear in my mind whether or not it is reasonable to expect a fair or even exemplary dose of empathy from S/CLs while exercising their other responsibilities. And, I must remember that the perception IS reality in situations like this. So, if the reader cannot see responsibility at work, they are going to see something that looks to them like entitlement. If they cannot see or feel my empathy, they are going to feel criticism. I will have to mull that a while, I think it applies to a lot of the stumbles I've made in life.
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Aqua, there is no sense of entitlement. The S/CLs manage the board. Period. We are not ordinary members in that regard by the fact that the board needs organization and Ash chose the S/CLs she saw fit to manage the board.
I guess if there's a learning here for me, it's that there is a hierarchy of opportunity and responsibility for leaders/managers in a setting like this. I suppose it's not at all unlike the old Maslow and Herzberg stuff relative to a hierarchy of human needs. The basic need is assumed to be order, protection, staying on task, keeping people feeling safe and free of threats. Of course that's needed for a deal like this. And in addition to that I have seen so many times when S/CLs have come out in times of stress and done that bit while also showing wonderful examples of the desired behavior patterns, empathy, etc. One of the reasons that is so valuable is that anybody can offer empathy here or in real when times are good. It's a real challenge for most or all of us to do that when fight/flight kicks in because we're looking to see if we're gonna get our identities smashed. Cannot see the other person at all. But some leaders have shown great examples of h ow to do that. I wonder where they've been lately. I wonder why none of the others has found anything to contribute in this thread.
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i have had it pointed out to me, many times, and for a long time i resisted it as being picked on. how stupid i was. and others see it as me being babied. the opposite views on that is just plain funny. it was neither, it was help being offered. but we saw/see it thru our filters. that is why how we word things to others is so important. we all have filters, ibf you said how you saw something and that was thru your own filter also.
Definitely a helpful reminder. Yes, our filters are always at play. As mine were in opening this thread and even now. So, the trick is to figure out how to authentically put myself in the other person's shoes (empathy) while taking care to make sure mine are not getting stepped on. Not easy, is it?

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i believe, saying they arent rules but rather guidelines (and I think the ps -subject to change and interpretation- was never inserted)
I think what I'm gonna take from this post is that what this leaves us is to make judgments based on intent rather than content. Very tricky. Tricky because we cannot possibly know intent until we ask and then verify (validate) that our understanding of their response is accurate. Hey, that's a lotta work, ya know? Ooops, someone push the sarcasm button. But it really is hard work which is the explanation I choose to use to explain why it almost never happens here or in real. I want to learn more about how this works so I can put my cynicism to rest at last.

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I don't think rudeness should be tolerated and yet sometimes the belief that someone is acting in a rude manner can be a person's perception that does not fit with another person's intent. For some reason, strong messages seem to come across as rude and yet weak messages are ineffective. It leaves people in a double bind of "damned if I do and damned if I don't" so that the person on the "hot seat" is not the one who really needs to be in that place of discomfort in order to process a particular message.
TA DAAAAAA!!!! Denim, with this post I just figured out why I value your contributions so much. In this one post you've mentioned three important issues and described them in terms of dialectics.... or maybe paradoxes. Either way, they are functional opposites which encite cognitive travel from one end of the continuum to the other and typically we jump off the train somewhere in the middle.. in the land of grays. It most certainly does seem like there is a lot of "kill the messenger" stuff happens here now and again. Sometimes it feels appallingly intentional and excessive. So it's not a matter so much of strong vs weak being right vs wrong... it's a matter of it being comfort vs discomfort. Interesting thing about that is that in most adult learning circles I've traveled, both comfort and discomfort are essential for learning to happen. The ultimate balancing act, eh? No wonder we get it less than perfect most times. Learning is simply not gonna happen until we get ourselves comfortably settled in a new different spot in the grays. So we've got to be willing to take a risk, and the other must be willing to acknowledge the fear that goes with risk taking before we can travel to the new place.

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Yes, I tend to immediately go on the defensive if I feel someone is attacking me. But we must all remember why we're here. We have problems. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here. For some, it takes years and years to tackle their problems. There are many reasons for this. I also don't approve of coddling. But I also believe that there's a decent way to talk to people to get your message across.
This is one of the posts that I feel a good bit of disagreement about. Still, I promised to find something to take away as a learning gift. Here it is, and it's a little tricky. What this suggests to me or reminds me about is that there are "dynamics" happening at both ends/sides of an interaction and they are "directed" in part by what we put in to the interaction as well as how we normally take stuff out. Maybe it's really a very organic thing rather than something drawn up and static that is inevitable based on our "personalities" or experiences. Tricky.

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i think that may be part of what the ROE suggests. if you reply out of disrespect, because it annoys YOU, it isnt for any reason but yourself. if you reply to help, out of empathy, it is for them as well as you.
A very nice reminder. I know I've done it both ways here and the results have shown that. I suppose this is one that applies to all of us every time we sit down at the keyboard. It seems sometimes it will always be easier to find something to be annoyed about than something to just be helpful with. Surely that's true for me. Surely that was true in this post. Interesting challenge, eh?

Thank you all. Time for some food. And definitely NOT food for thought!


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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:36 pm 
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ibf, i found this thread and your posts tremendously interesting and challenging. thank you.

yes, its hard as hell. most of what we all shared is hard as hell to put in practice all the time. another life long goal of mine. some days my best isnt much or good enough. somedays it is. i strive for more of the good days than the bad. must be why i am in counseling one day a week, group one day a week. lol.

thanks again for your thoughts. who woulda thought it was all so complicated and hard to do,eh? it is.

actually, let me say this. this online board runs smoother than any board i have ever seen. (no sucking up) mental illness or not, and most i have been on were and are various subjects from fish keeping to abuse to plain chat, this runs better and more open and honest than any, bar none, i have seen. most are full of trolls and assholes who couldnt care less about learning.

while we can see things at times we dont understand or disagree with, considering this place is for mental issues, this place is a well run, open, board. it really is. every place is run by humans and as such will have faults. that seems to bug you, and im sure it might a lot of people at times. but truly, most online stuff is much worse, ,much meaner, and much less learning oriented.

i love your concious work on finding something to learn from in every post. im gonna begin that also. good example!

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:51 am 
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But the point is well made... whether it's a sense of responsibility or a sense of entitlement driving a response, I need to get clear in my mind whether or not it is reasonable to expect a fair or even exemplary dose of empathy from S/CLs while exercising their other responsibilities. And, I must remember that the perception IS reality in situations like this. So, if the reader cannot see responsibility at work, they are going to see something that looks to them like entitlement. If they cannot see or feel my empathy, they are going to feel criticism.[quote]

I see this as a really nice encapisulation of how problems are created when none was intended and how problems that exist grow.

Perception IS reality. The question then becomes does majority rule? If so, it seems to take away from the experience of the individual... how can majority dictate the what someone feels or thinks or believes. The best anyone or all (if the majorty really is in 100% agreement ie yes she is playing a victim; yes she is being vicious; yes, she is trying her best) can hope for is to find a way to relate this in a manner that the individual can hear which means getting past her filters and, I believe this has been addressed here by a few people - empathy has pretty much been the tried and proven technique -not just here but everywhere- to do just that.

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So, if the reader cannot see responsibility at work, they are going to see something that looks to them like entitlement. If they cannot see or feel my empathy, they are going to feel criticism


When have you responded to criticism- especially if it wasnt constructive? especially if it is mean ? vicious? malicious? all or any combo of the above?

When have you responded positively to anyone who portrayed an air of entitlement? Who wants raise their hand and say yep yep over here, yep you are better than me-- oh so much better and because of such I will bow down to your every wish and command?

If you go back to the premise of this board.... do either of the above- entitlement or criticism really relate or portray either ?

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:10 am 
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Can someone please define "entitlement" to me as it pertains to the current topic. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:15 am 
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belief that one is deserving of or entitled to certain privileges

I believe the theory is that if one is wearing an SCL or CL hat, we're entitled and allowed to be bullies and assholes simply because we have the job title, that it's our right to be jackasses and such.

Does that make sense?

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:17 am 
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I understand Ash. Thank you. But I do hope you're being tongue-in-cheek about the assholes and bullies part.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:19 am 
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If they cannot see or feel my empathy, they are going to feel criticism.
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I wonder if it's possible to try to assume that the Mods are being empathic and not acting in a critical manner. That certainly would clear up a lot of negative feelings here.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:24 am 
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Bordergirl wrote:
I wonder if it's possible to try to assume that the Mods are being empathic and not acting in a critical manner. That certainly would clear up a lot of negative feelings here.


I think some people can and do assume that. But I don't think the mods can safely assume that everyone will start with that assumption. We are each individuals. We can each check our own assumptions and what our defaults are, and choose to take messages as coming from a caring place unless shown otherwise. But some of us doing it doesn't mean all of us will. And it doesn't mean newcomers will.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:29 am 
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I understand Ellen. I have been thinking about myself and what place I was formerly at. I am hoping that I am in a place to receive messages in a more constructive and open manner. I'm tip-toeing around it on the board now - I still have a ways to go in RL. But with continuous practice, maybe I'll get there.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:12 am 
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I wonder if it's possible to try to assume that the Mods are being empathic and not acting in a critical manner. That certainly would clear up a lot of negative feelings here.


I think new people may have to sort thru a lot to discern what is happening when; I think those that have been around they can and already have discerned those Mods that are empathic and wanting to help are caring from the others.

That aside, as I read the exchange between BG and Ellen, who often makes wonderful observations and conclusions this came up which I feel is worth a share:


What happen(s)/(ed) to the 4 agree's ? Suddenly they don't apply?

What happen(s)/(ed) to intent ? (which again gets back to 4 agrees)

Mods are exempt ? We (board members and mods) selective choose when to use and not to ?


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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:16 pm 
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this may be slightly off topic, im not sure exactly what the topic is.

i find it funny that some here holler when the mods are,,well, MODS. i desperately wanted it for so long. i wanted to see it wasnt just me who messed up. i wanted some leadership./ i got it. and it has been pointed at me for a long time and its nice to see it pointed elsewhere.

yet people suddenly began having a problem. that is what a mod hat is for. to get onto us. much is put up with here that on some boards would never be allowed. when someone, speaking for me, goes beyond the line they should set some boundaries. someone should , or this can fall apart easily into name calling and such.

and now some dont want it happening. as was said by someone,. consequences. we cant, none of us, talk trash just because its our opinion or view of another person we dont even know.

anyways, just adding this for my own benefit. im glad to see someone setting a line somewhere here. were they rude? i dont know, because i cant be objective.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:29 pm 
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I'd thought "don't make assumptions", but didn't want to complicate things by bringing that up. But that was what I was thinking about when I mentioned "defaults".

It's about trust. We don't have a way to check out each person's trustworthiness before we interact with them. We have a default level we start with (which may vary with the situation), and then adjust from there. It's a sort of assumption. But more an assumption about what most people are like, and we adjust individual views as we learn about a person.

It's okay to start at a default place of trusting the moderators to be caring, not critical. That does not go against the "Don't make assumptions". Rewording that same idea as "assuming the moderators are being caring, not critical" doesn't make it against that agreement. Either wording, it's the same idea.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:36 pm 
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Thank you Ellen. That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm trying to have a fresh start.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:41 pm 
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it's a matter of it being comfort vs discomfort. Interesting thing about that is that in most adult learning circles I've traveled, both comfort and discomfort are essential for learning to happen. The ultimate balancing act, eh? No wonder we get it less than perfect most times. Learning is simply not gonna happen until we get ourselves comfortably settled in a new different spot in the grays. So we've got to be willing to take a risk, and the other must be willing to acknowledge the fear that goes with risk taking before we can travel to the new place.


I agree that "comfort vs discomfort" is a better distinction because strong messages that support our own views are not seen as being as threatening as strong messages that conflict with our own views. It does take a willingness to move beyond our comfort level in order to grow and many people are not willing to move when they are too afraid of the unknown.

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 Post subject: Re: ROE, HUH?????
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:47 pm 
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I've been thinking about all this for a couple of days, and taking care of some 3-D issues, but I'll try to toss out some thoughts here.

First off, I guess I have to say I'm not sure I'm getting your sarcasm, Ibf. Sorry. Obviously I'm in the middle of this, since I'm one of the people "taking shots" at Aqua, and I'm the "she" that Aqua is complaining about, so I'm kind of assuming that you don't agree with what I've said to her. OK. So if that's so, is it the fact that I called her out at all that's bugging you? You had no quibble with the way she was speaking to Jody, Candle, or Minx? Or was it the *way* I said what I did in response? Maybe if I knew more about where you're coming from I'd have a better idea how to respond.

I don't think that calling someone on their stuff and being empathetic are supposed to be an either/or, one or the other. I don't know where anybody has said that -- I don't think the ROE say that either. It's certainly not something I was saying to Aqua -- at least I don't think so. I do believe in trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt. I didn't think Aqua was doing so when, for instance, she jumped on Minx for pursuing a relationship that Aqua thought was unhealthy and wrong. I saw no empathy there or willingness to hear Minx's side of the story. Now maybe *I* didn't give Aqua the benefit of the doubt, either, but I was also bothered by her frequent criticisms of Jody, which have gone on for ages and do nothing for Jody and seem to me to be more *about* Aqua than *for* Jody, her dissing of Candle as "enabling," and her suggestion that the Leadership team here is unhealthy and not capable of fostering a positive environment. So I got angry. As I said to Aqua, if it had been just one of the above, I probably would have let it go or simply asked her to dial it down a notch. But there was all of it together, I felt there'd been a pattern of this stuff from her in the past, and yes, I wanted to nip it in the bud. I tend to keep my mouth shut around here a lot -- I don't feel that every indiscretion needs attention, at least not publicly -- but in this case I felt strongly enough about it to speak up.

I don't do so from any sense of entitlement. I prefer your word: responsibility. I certainly don't think I'm better than anybody else here. I don't feel that being an SCL gives me some kind of right to behave badly when I'm suggesting to others that they shouldn't, and generally speaking I honestly don't think that I do that. I'll freely admit that my style may not agree with some people, but I've been a part of this board for six years and I have a pretty good feeling for what I think is helpful or hurtful around here, and I feel I have a responsibility to address certain things that I think are hurtful. I can certainly try to work harder on my presentation, but I don't think I'm really too far off base in terms of my general approach.

I really liked what Ellen had to say about needing to be able to see somebody's perspective in order to call her (or him, obviously) on her stuff. To the extent that I may not have understood where Aqua was coming from before I posted to her in CC, it was not for lack of trying. I just didn't get that there was any empathy coming from her, and I felt what she had said to the three people I mentioned above was more about her and being "right" than about understanding the others and trying to help them. So all in all, we had a "failure to communicate." Nobody involved was seeing anything good in what the other was saying. I'll accept my part in that, and hopefully we can all move on.

There is so much that is "in the eye of the beholder" around here. As has been pointed out a zillion times, on the internet you totally lose the perspective you'd gain in a face-to-face conversation where you could assess tone of voice and body language. In addition, it is very difficult to know what somebody else's learning style is. Depending on past history, one person may have a totally different set of needs than another when it comes to being able to learn from another. And so if someone seems to be taking a long time to get something, maybe it's just that they haven't seen it presented in a way that fits with their ability to learn. That isn't to say there aren't people here who, at one time or another, have stuck their proverbial fingers in their ears and said "I can't hear you I can't hear you" over and over again. It happens. But as you said, ibf, this is all very tricky. It takes one person who is willing to take a risk when it comes to offering help, and another who is in a place to take a risk and leave a comfortable but dysfunctional place in order to accept the help and move to a new and scary place. So I don't think we should be so very surprised that that doesn't work all the time. It's certainly not right to kill the messenger, but it also isn't right to kill the target of the message just because she doesn't receive it the way the messenger intended her to.

I have to admit that there's a lot in Denim's post that I don't agree with. I do think that there are times when two people are just so far apart in terms of their whole psyche and history and experience and learning styles and so forth and so on that effective communication between them is pretty much hopeless. Fortunately we now have the "ignore" function, or one can just have the discipline not to react when the other says or does something that pushes a button. I do not, however, think that the fact that some people here are "slower" learners than others means that we are "allowing" people to stagnate or letting the board as a whole be dragged down. I'm sorry she feels that way.

I do think that confrontation has its place here -- not everything should be all warm and fuzzy. I disagree that this is a place where there is any great tolerance for a mentality of "this is a site for people with BPD so it's OK for them to act in a borderline manner" and get away with it. On balance, I think there isn't that much enabling that goes on here. And again, one person's "enabling" may be another's having patience and trying again to help another person see a certain point. I think it's a bit harsh to say that there are people here who are "too defensive to work on change." They may be scared to make the change, they may be working on another issue than the one the confronter wants to bring up, but they aren't necessarily just defensive. Yes, we can confront, but it's not going to work in every instance. Just as a person who is "stuck" needs to realize that doing the the same (ineffective) thing over and over and expecting a different result is an exercise in futility, the confronter needs to keep the same thing in mind. If you've confronted the same person over and over and gotten no result, consider the fact that your message isn't the right one at the right time for them rather than conclude that they're simply too defensive or resistant to change and the fault lies completely with them.

I do not get the part about "using up resources." This is not some sort of zero sum game where interaction with one person means that interaction with some other (more deserving) person can't take place. This is a large community. Each of us is free to interact as much or as little as we'd like. If you have limited time to be here, then maybe concentrate on what you need for *your own* happy, healthy living and ignore those who are spinning for whatever reason. If you don't want to help them, then don't -- there's no requirement that we devote x amount of time to our own stuff and an equal or greater amount of time to others. Most of us go through spells where we have something heavy going on in our lives and we can't do the helping stuff so much. At other times we may find ourselves more moved to be generous with the time we devote to others. I really don't like the implication here that Leadership should think about *telling* the stuck folks to move on and leave the community because they're causing everybody else to stagnate. I just don't see that happening. If a person is being disruptive, then sure, anything from a temporary time-out to a ban should be considered, but personally I don't think being stuck is disruptive. Sure it's frustrating sometimes when there is someone who is in the "I can't understand what you're saying" place over and over again and it seems like they're just closing their eyes and refusing to budge, but in the long run I don't find that disruptive in the sense that arguing, being rude, constantly picking on one person again and again, and passive aggressiveness is. I don't think they're trying to "bend BPDR to their demands." I believe the Leadership Team has enough of a handle on the general function of this place to prevent that.

Yes, this is a "therapeutic community" in the sense that we're all trying to work on recovery. But we're not therapists, and to expect the community, or the Leadership people in particular, to act as a therapist would, and totally understand how to move a certain person toward recovery, is unreasonable and even dangerous. I don't think it's up to us to decide when a person's behavior is "intolerable" as long as she isn't engaging in something that is truly disruptive. I know that I, personally, don't want that kind of responsibility when it comes to dealing with any one individual. I'm not a trained mental health counselor -- I have no business treating anybody here as a "client." I *do* see my role and responsibility as working to keep the community on the whole relatively stable. That means I try to be aware of when things are going seriously off the rails, but I don't step into every dispute or take on any one person as a project. I know I don't do what I do perfectly by any means. We all screw up at one time or another. But if most everybody here is reasonable happy, then I think we're doing OK. I'm always trying to learn -- I'm not as close-minded as some people seem to think I am -- and I'm trying to balance the needs of individuals against the needs of the general community. It's not always easy.

The Rules of Engagement are good, in my opinion. I try to follow them. Sometimes when I'm feeling like I have to assert myself as an SCL I may be more confrontational, but I don't see a way around that. Obviously if we're all going to grow here, there is going to be a need for "different strokes for different folks." Calling someone on their stuff -- with empathy -- is important. Simply enabling another isn't helpful, but it really doesn't happen all that much -- it's not so common, I don't think, that we truly enable in the sense of saying "oh, poor you, nobody understands you, your behavior isn't so bad..." around here, really, as happens on other boards. There is a balance here that I think works most of the time.

Finally, the last thing in the ROE is about the "golden rule." I sort of like its inverse -- don't do something to another that you wouldn't want done to you. If you want to call someone out, then do it, but do it respectfully, and hopefully with some of that empathy we've been talking about, and expect that others may call you out as well.

OK, I've been writing this for hours now and have rambled on all over the place and there are probably a dozen posts that have gone up since I started. I hope this makes some sense...

By the way, ibf, you probably haven't heard from other S/CLs because there aren't that many of us around right now. Quite a few are very busy with real-life demands, or doing summer things with family, or whatever. It's not that we're all ignoring you.

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