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"""""I also understand that it's frustrating to see others repeat the same unhealthy behaviors over and over again, and that maybe you feel you can get them to see the light by sort of a tough love technique."""" Sari, this caught my eye. may i explore it a bit?

speaking for myself, i see why this wont work with me. i doubt im the only one but lets imagine i am for the time being of this thread.

because this is EXACTLY what was done to me thru abuse. i suspect many others. we/i were told "its for your own good". "we must be tough on you because YOU arent doing what I want you to". and pain accompanied those words, many times.

here is the problem. abusers pervert the theme there. its the same theme, only perverted to benefit the abuser and submit the victim of the abuse. speaking for me , I cant tell the difference any longer between abuse and caring.

say one person wants to do it because they know its best. a train is coming and they want others to not be hit. how much righter would something be than that?

however, the abuser took the same train crossing, and simply amused him/herself by forcing the person off the tracks to be controlling. and scaring them by saying that train is gonna kill ya yet! only I can save you. but the person learned, in spite of suffering terrible pain every time, that the train didnt always come. it dawned on them this person isnt trying to help me, they just are laughing and hurting me.

dont you think the person finally says...look, i have eyes and ears. i can hear the train. i can decide to get off the track or stand here and choose to be run over. at least its MY choice, and not anothers. they..me , become angry and immune to help because they/me have never know real, honest, caring help.

can you see that? let me decide if i want to move or not. i am so sick of the pain and conditioning of the abuser, i cant see the true reality anymore of the train anyways. its my problem if the train hits me or not anyways. im not asking to be parented and told what to do. im asking to let me choose it. abused children who grow into adults have never been able to fall on their own and get up. we dont know how. thats what i must learn.

that is the result of trauma and abuse. we dont know how to stand up on our own and its so scary, the last thing we need is someone to keep telling us shit in a "tough" way. we were burned out by toughness already. it wont work anymore on us.

hope this makes sense in some small way. your sentence really struck me when i read it. now i know why i dont like being told what to do, or told my perception is wrong. it isnt i dont appreciate the fact someone may be trying to save me from the train, its i want to save myself when i choose to.

i want to be me. not responsible for anothers ANYTHING. just mine.

Here's something I said in a different CC thread:

I would agree that sometimes some folks can be a bit too eager to glom onto the "bitchslap with love" concept and use it as a way to beat other people down. They may say something like "I see this, fix it now!" and think that they're doing the "bitchslap with love" thing. They may not understand that they haven't first done the leg work to confirm that the slapped person is going to be aware that the love is there to begin with. In some cases, they may be too focused on the bitchslap part and not really give a crap about the with-love part.

In fairness, and on the other side of the coin, I think some people wear their Abuse Glasses non-stop and see everything as abuse because that's all they knew in childhood. They can't even begin to conceive that something that's blunt is something other than abusive. They automatically leap the assumption that the person is being abusive and cruel and mean and vindictive and nasty and they can never for a moment allow that there could be kindness in there. They never consider that "Hey, these are the actions I'm seeing so if you don't want consequences to those actions, you might stop doing those actions" might be something good-hearted, filled with love and concern, oozing with empathy and compassion. To the Abuse Glasses group, even "That's an interesting sweater" is abusive, sarcastic, mean and nasty.


This is a classic example of refusal to acknowledge that the Abuse Glasses are firmly affixed in front of one's eyeballs. The person is so stuck in their past that they're unable to use their tools to live in the present, to apply the Five Steps, to separate stuff, to check for Twisted Thinking, etc.


Now, to get back to your personal story, Jody, when I see things like "this is EXACTLY what was done to me thru abuse" I think I have a compulsion to drag out the Existential Paradox:

You may be absolutely right about how abusers operate, what techniques they use, how it impacts other people and all the rest.

But not everyone is an abuser! That's the Abuse Glasses showing you only what they want you to see. You're allowing yourself to continue in the Victim Loop because it's comfortable. (It's 'comfortable' because it's what you grew up with and all you've ever known. I don't doubt for a minute how horrible it is to be at the mercy of an abuser and I could probably trade some war stories with you. The thought of letting your guard down and accepting random strangers as Non-Abusers is scary as shit because sooner or later, one of them really will be an Abuser and you'd let your guard down & they got to you, oh no!)

And you're no longer at the mercy of your mother! (Are you?) You're not responsible for having been given the Abuse Glasses. They were forced on you by your mother, I get that. But you're an adult now and you don't have to wear the darn things if you don't want to. Something tells me, though, that you do want to continue wearing them because it's safer to assume the worst than open up to the possibilities of the best that life has to offer. The fact that you continue to wear the Abuse Glasses IS your responsibility.


Yes, you can make those decisions. You're absolutely, 100% correct, no arguments, no exceptions!

That's part of the Existential Paradox. You're continuing to make the choices that keep those Abuse Glasses firmly on your face. You're continuing to make the choices that get you run over by the train. (Usually people do this to prove their own worst case scenarios as a way to defend their borderline behaviour. It's a classic pattern in the I-hate-you-Don't-leave-me cycle -- we push & push & push to see if they really will stay with us until we succeed in pushing the person away and then we say "Aha! I knew it! You never really meant it! I was right all along!")


And sometimes, after watching you deliberately and defiantly stand in front of the speeding train to get flattened over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, it starts to hurt US to watch you put yourself through it, Jody. Sometimes we want to scream "Hey, look out, there's a train, get off the tracks" because we feel just heartsick watching you get splatted for the bazillionth time.

Yes, it's your right to choose and make foolish, painful choices. We get that. We want you to choose to save yourself before it's too late ... because it seems that we care about you more than you care about yourself.

And it's our right to say "What are you doing and for god's sake, why?! You're hurting yourself needlessly and it's hurting us to watch you do this!"

And after the bazillionth-and-first time of watching you deliberately put yourself in harm's way, of "learning lessons the hard way," of being the one in control, there comes a point where it becomes irresponsible for people to just stand by and watch without saying or doing anything.

If you really were standing in harm's way repeatedly and we all just stood around saying "Well, I guess she'll stop when she's bloody enough" you can bet your ass we'd get sued or charged with Reckless Endangerment or Depraved Indifference. You're essentially saying it's your right to hurt yourself and we HAVE to turn a blind eye to your choices because of things that happened to you 45 years ago.

I hope that one day you'll be able to care about yourself a tenth as much as the people here care about you - the very people who you call Abusers.

“Patience with others is love. Patience with self is hope.” ~ unknown

I'm one of those Abusers in your eyes with the Abuse Glasses on. I know that. It hurts me to know that's how you see me but I won't ever stop loving or bitchslapping when I see a train hurtling toward you. Hate me for it as much as you want. I can take it. I've been hated by more people than I care to count and I've been called every name in the book. (I figure it's classic transference. It's easier to hate me for saying "Get off the tracks for god's sake!" than it is to say "I am really angry at you for what you did to me, Mother.")

You have the right to continue standing on the tracks as long as you want.

At some point, though, people will get tired of watching it unfold while you tune out their words of warning and compassion. Eventually, you'll get your subconscious wish to prove the borderline thoughts correct and you'll get everyone to walk away from you.

I hope with every fibre of my being that it doesn't happen but it could. You need to know that. We love and we love unconditionally but we also need to protect our hearts from watching continuous self-harm - physically, emotionally or psychologically.

And if you think I spent the last 45 mins typing this out, looking up all the quotes and legal terms because I have nothing better to do but torture and abuse you, there's nothing I can do about that. The fact is: it's going on 7pm and I haven't eaten anything except a Fiber One bar at 6:30am and I'm dying for some Mediterranean food from across the street but I've set my own needs and desires aside to try to help you see things just a tiny bit differently in the hopes that maybe this is the time my words make a difference to you, maybe this is the time you decide to step off the tracks, maybe this is the time you'll take the Abuse Glasses off for the first time, maybe this is the time you'll let the lessons sink in instead of fighting them off every step of the way. Maybe, just maybe ....

I guess I'm somewhere maybe in the middle, or a bit away from the middle. I was never abused. Not by anyone. So I can't talk about abuse. Personally, I have never seen anything here on BPDR that I would term abuse. I will even admit that most people here talk from a standpoint of caring. But I will also say that there have been some that I will turn a blind's eye to because of the way they speak their message. If I sense a person really cares, I will listen to them and hopefully learn something from them. But if all I hear is "you do it this way because I say so" then I will back away. It's all how the message is given and how it is perceived.

I agree with you Ash on what you said. Maybe I'm one of those people that haven't listened and you all got frustrated with me. Maybe part of it may be the way the message was given. I don't want to go back and rehash the past. I will say that I have gotten to the point where I am trying to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I think there must be some people here who have insecurities and doubts. None of us know each other in RL and we're out here putting our stories and lives on the line. So we tread carefully.

This is such an interesting topic. We all walk a fine line in giving advice. I'm always nervous giving advice. I think it's brave of people to want to help others. It takes a lot of guts.

I am really impressed with what you said Ash. I believe you wouldn't be here if you didn't care. I see it now much more clearly.

I want to be one of those caring people. Someone who is interested and wants to help for the sake of helping - not for some agenda I have for myself. I hope that I will always listen to someone I feel cares. That's the bottom line. Thanks Ash.

gee, Ash.

i will say this. very honestly. something i have come to know from the few DV group things i have begun.

i am too scared to take off those glasses. to me, kindness or caring is terrifying. i dont know it. i dont know what to do with it, how to handle it, and i sure as hell dont trust it because its ALL I KNOW.

now im trying to learn different. you may have or may not have any idea how hard and terrifying it is. i know there is some here, at least one, who does know how terrifying it is. she doesnt see it tho because she isnt ready yet. but i relate and feel so much for her, because she hasnt even got to where i am yet (which i dont consider very far). she still denies it. she may always. its her choice. as my T told me, we will only see things when we are ready to deal with them. until then, we use denial to cope. and until one is ready to step out and trust, one wont see it.

much as someone hates watching me get hit by a train, im sorry. until im ready to face more things, it is how it works for ALL of us. if i was to take this person im speaking of, and shake her and say LOOK. look in that fucking mirror. here is what you are doing! she would come unglued. and deny deny. and i would hurt her worse by my doing that because she isnt READY.

im sorry Ash, i know how much patience i take by anyone who cares. luckily, there havent been many who have, (lol) but i do wish you could see how desperately i am trying to reach out. to learn. how scary it is. maybe someday you will understand.

dont you remember what i told you in a pm not long ago? that was the first time and this is the second, i could see Ash spoke to me and i wasnt scared? well, this IS the second time. what a huge thing that is for me! i feel no fear, no defensiveness at all toward you. my steps may seem small to you, but for me there are huge. to just post it out loud means im facing it. that is a huge step. i have never done it before. now i am.

when all one knows is abuse, anything else is foreign. its like when all you have eaten is cooked meat, raw looks awful. i wish i could help you see this. i cant, because i cant describe it well. im just beginning to see the cage im in. im beginning to see there are doors on it and do i dare go out them? ever seen a animal released into the wild sometimes? if all they know is that cage, the freedom outside it is terrifying to them. they must be taught basics like how to hunt, how to find food or shelter. can you imagine that mind of that critter? born to be in the wild, to be itself yet its so afraid of its own habitat. they cower in a corner, terrified of what lies out in the world.

""""The person is so stuck in their past that they're unable to use their tools to live in the present, to apply the Five Steps, to separate stuff, to check for Twisted Thinking, etc.""" i dont like the word "stuck". im not stuck in the idea i have actively known each side and chose one. im stuck in the sense that i know nothing else. the stuff outside the cage is scary and foreign. to survive, i had to learn stuff others havent. to unlearn that goes against every instinct i have. i have to conciously choose all the time to go against my instincts and relearn all this. i so wish you could understand that.

its like, you know both sides. many here do. some here are stuck in the survival mode also. some arent and i look up to them for that and proof i can leave the cage and i wont die. but ,,i daresay from my own feelings, the instinct that kept me alive and wary is extremely strong and hard to break. all i can do is try.

i think i will bring this up in DV group tomorrow. i already had a inkling by talking to a friend who said she was taking a trip to see a pal without her abuser. i want to know how she feels by herself. i had the chances a few years ago to do this. visit a pal, stay by myself in a motel, eat alone. God, it was terrifying. i cant describe it but to say, i kept expecting something to hit me in the back all the time. this IS CPTSD. this is what it means, why i have the dx. this inability to cope without my cage of safety.

i know others who havent had this simply dont get it. hell, i dont even get it. when i left my H before, i talked to a counselor at a shelter and she said how do you feel? honestly i told her i was scared shitless. she said to me, you know why? i said no. she said freedom. thats freedom and it will scare you shitless for a long time. her words still stick with me to this day.

""""And it's our right to say "What are you doing and for god's sake, why?! You're hurting yourself needlessly and it's hurting us to watch you do this!"""". i wish you could see, Ash. that is foreign to me. i dont know what to do with it. by doing this very thing, posting and hearing your views, im learning. you cant see it but i can feel it. to heal this shit is a daunting task. maybe someday i will say it well enough that you see what i mean. i dont know the concept of me hurting bothers anyone else. all i know is some others like it. i dont know there ARE others who dont.

i absolutely loved your post to me. honest, blunt, caring. perfect words to hear. i will reread them. i know you arent lying to me. and in this post im not lying to you. im saying things i havent even faced till now. they make me feel sad. they give me hope. i dig deep to find courage many days. you gave me some just now.

""""You're essentially saying it's your right to hurt yourself and we HAVE to turn a blind eye to your choices because of things that happened to you 45 years ago.""" were it only 45 years ago! been much closer than that. however, how to word this? i am breaking it up into 2 parts. i desperately want to do it myself. i have to. i have such problems (altho i am much better and closer now than ever) to hear another tell me what to do. how you do it, how some others do it, i can handle and hear just fine. how another can do it i cant begin to hear it still. to me there is no middle ground yet. im afraid to trust it. my mind, soul, whatever would like to believe there is people out there who really just dont the train to hit me. but i dont know the concept, what if they just want to mess with me and laugh yet again when i believe them?

im trying to explain this. since i dont quite get it all yet either, i dont know how good a job im doing with it.

""""I'm one of those Abusers in your eyes with the Abuse Glasses on. I know that. It hurts me to know that's how you see me but I won't ever stop loving or bitchslapping when I see a train hurtling toward you. Hate me for it as much as you want""". i dont hate you, Ash. ok, i used to dislike you. nothing to do with you as a person, was about me as a person. i dont think you are a abuser. not any more. once you opened up and i actually could hear you in your words (awhile back) my feelings went away. my negative feelings. now i just kinda stand and listen in awe, usually. i dont really know why something clicked. it just did. im glad it did. maybe my not feeling those things about you anymore shows my growth and healing, i hope so.

""""but I've set my own needs and desires aside to try to help you see things just a tiny bit differently in the hopes that maybe this is the time my words make a difference to you, maybe this is the time you decide to step off the tracks, maybe this is the time you'll take the Abuse Glasses off for the first time, maybe this is the time you'll let the lessons sink in instead of fighting them off every step of the way. Maybe, just maybe ...."""" i hope you got to eat. i dont think im worth you expending any energy on. but i appreciate it far more than you will ever know. proof someone things im worth something. wow. i hear you,. Ash. i heard you. i will keep hearing those words in my mind for a very long time.

but to imagine there is anything else out there but what i know...very weird, very foreign , very scary. if its ok with you, i will just peek out and test the water and keep trying. ok?

((Ash)). you may not like the hug. it is given freely, with all caring, because i always wanted hugs and didnt get them and i want to give one. i hope you see it for what it is.

again, thanks with all my heart...jody

(((Jody)))

Jody, I hope you get to the point where you see that there are others who care for you here. We have no agenda. We just want to you feel good, have a good day and not keep looking for abuse around the corners. I can only imagine how difficult this is, but we gotta make up our minds.

I hope you will get to this place!

i hope i will too. thanks.

I hope you don't mind me butting in, but this really struck me. Why? Because this causes the most frustration in my relationship. Standing outside the cage trying to convince those in it to come out, what you want is right through this door. And they continually choose the other door is very frustrating. I know its got to be done, but.......

And, with all probability, there is always a bigger cage.

As far as the train analogy goes, isn't that kind of a trust thing? Your on the tracks, and abusive person tells you there is a train coming and you jump off. There is no train, they have a good laugh or whatever at your expense. Some non abusive person comes along, tells you there is a train coming. You've heard this before and tell them to piss off, and you get hit by the train.

Is the secret here actually recognizing the train, rather than relying on someone to tell you there is a train? Trust yourself rather than choosing who to trust?

I'm trying to understand behavior in my life, gathering information that may help.

I should have added, that you recognizing the cage, as it were, is absolutely awesome in my book!

hey spoonman! how are ya? please, share your views and questions.

i dont have any answers tho. i am gonna try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but i find i have short tolerance for anyone who is rude or disrespectful. i write them off pretty fast and dont give many chances any more.

i dont know how to get the trust yet. i just learned that i dont have it and expect abuse from everyone. no, i dont expect "abuse" as such, i expect to be treated like shit. when im not, im at loose ends on what to do.

i intend to work on this in my counseling....how to learn to give the benefit of the doubt and how to judge how much time to give and how to respond to disrespect with a behavior i can handle.

i suggest, just love the person. accept them as they are unless they are shitty to you. show you know they are intelligent and expect they can figure out things on their own. be very careful telling someone what you want them to do. ask it nicely, can you .....please? type stuff rather than a barked order. "hand me that!" i hate orders. how about asking "would you like this or that?" instead of "do you want this or that?"

if your SO wants to heal also, then know its a tough, scary road.

you said this...""""Is the secret here actually recognizing the train, rather than relying on someone to tell you there is a train? Trust yourself rather than choosing who to trust?"""". you misunderstood. i am not "relying on another to tell me there is a train". i am arguing against those who feel they must do it. others i perceive as getting into my business and wanting me to live and think like they do. and knocking it when i dont. that is too close to my abusers mindsets, and i cant take it. what i need, we need, speaking about your SO, is respect for our own stuff. ourselves. our beliefs and thoughts and ideas.

trusting ourselves is what our abusers hate(d). we fight for that right. it wasnt allowed and was usually punished. speaking for me, i want to do it. but its scary, as i feel (with no reality basis) a smack or rant is coming behind me when i do trust myself. or when i choose something for myself. it just isnt allowed. i mean, at one time i couldnt even use the bathroom with the door shut. or go to bed when i wanted. most of that is now past, with me setting boundaries, but abuse can become so controlling its unreal.


im trying to understand it to. it is so complicated and hard and scary. i wish you all the best and your SO also. please post anytime if you want to, if you want to explain more or in more detail about what you mean. jody

This abuse stuff (reading what you write) is interesting. I apply the same things (almost) to invalidation. It's like, you invalidate me once. You invalidate me again. But you keep invalidating me and I come to expect it. If it keeps coming, why should I expect otherwise? Have you shown me otherwise?

Another problem I have is that I often expect people to screw me over. Like you expect people to abuse you, I expect people to screw me. It's almost like I'm waiting for it, cos deep down I know it'll happen. That certainly is NOT giving people the benefit of the doubt. I make up these little scenarios, little conversations, in my head, of how I think the other person will talk to me. In a bad way. That's not good. Again, I have to think of giving people the benefit of the doubt. Now if someone has talked shitty to me for a long time, I might figure they will continue to do it. But if it's never happened before, why would I expect someone to do it to me now? What's wrong with me? Where does that come from?

Being that people with BPD are often over-sensitive, I can see how this can happen. But we have to learn a new way to react, a new way to think. Not jump to conclusions. Not expect bad or negative words from others.

There has to be a happy medium between trusting people and giving them the benefit of the doubt. We have to be careful, but not in a paranoid way. Why should we (I) always expect the worst from people? It's something I need to bring up in therapy. Again, I've never been abused but this behavior must have come from somewhere. And I can't begin to think where it comes from. I'll have to do some deep thinking tonight, I think.

i get the impression, from how im hearing your words, that you dont think invalidation is a form of abuse.

i have lots of paperwork from my DV group and depending on how the invalidation is done, i would expect it is a form of abuse. there are many types...

i know i and others here have disagreed on what constitutes abuse. so this is from my view only.

its too long to copy, so here are the links. http://www.eqi.org/eabuse1.htm#What%20i ... al%20Abuse?

""""Aggressive abuse can also take a more indirect form and may even be disguised and "helping." Criticizing, advising, offering solutions, analyzing, proving, and questioning another person may be a sincere attempt to help. In some instances however, these behaviors may be an attempt to belittle, control, or demean rather than help. The underlying judgmental "I know best" tone the abuser takes in these situations is inappropriate and creates unequal footing in peer relationships"""" (some im not too far out of touch to consider this and feel it how i do--even tho some here insist im out to lunch to even think that)

""""Denying a person's emotional needs, especially when they feel that need the most, and done with the intent of hurting, punishing or humiliating """"

""""Invalidation

The abuser seeks to distort or undermine the recipient's perceptions of their world. Invalidating occurs when the abuser refuses or fails to acknowledge reality. For example, if the recipient tells the person they felt hurt by something the abuser did or said, the abuser might say "You are too sensitive. That shouldn't hurt you." Here is a much more complete description of invalidation """" (sound familiar?)

well you get the idea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse


certainly,. i still cant tell abuse much of the time. to compensate, i see it everywhere. i have just swung from one extreme to the other and expect i will swing back to the middle.

i may always consider some things abuse when others dont because i have become sensitized to it. i dont know. i prefer to think some see it in a diff light as they dont want to admit it could be abusive. we are taught in class that if it feels wrong to us, it is wrong.

Maybe, as far as invalidation and abuse, it depends on the situation. If someone I'm talking with at a social gathering, or someone on a message board, etc, is invalidating to me, it's like, it's not so much abuse as just something I need to walk away from (literally or figuratively). There's no reason to think in terms of if it is or isn't abuse. Rather, how do I respond? It's not abuse if I don't let it be.

But, a parent or guardian invalidating their child is a different situation.

since i know we can disagree, ellen, and remain in a good place, i must disagree with this..""""It's not abuse if I don't let it be."""

in my view, sure it is abuse. what we choose to do with it doesnt make it abuse or not. its still abuse whether i choose to react, or ignore, or respond.

just my view and belief....my beliefs can not make or unmake abuse. it is or it isnt. how i hear "your a fat pig" doesnt do a thing for the basic premise that is a rude, invalidating, mean remark. i CAN choose how to respond or not. of course you can walk away from it. the words still hang in the air, tho.

""""Rather, how do I respond? It's not abuse if I don't let it be"""" i do not think my response defines or makes it abuse or not. i think it is abuse, and how i choose to handle it is up to me. that is what we are taught in DV counseling. if not, your taking a bunch of people and trying to tell them our abusers are fine and WE are the ones making it abuse. i just dont think that will fly. my SO could tell me im a fat pig all week, and its ok unless i make it abusive.

i think the response "making it" abuse or not takes the responsibility off the person saying it and puts it on me. while my choice of behaviors is on me, i cant choose to make it abusive or not. i can choose to not be hurt by it. i can choose to be safe or not own it. but the bottom line is the wording (or act) is abusive.

hope that made sense, and thanks for letting us disagree at times and still be cool.

If the doctor taps my knee with the rubber mallet and my leg kicks forward, it's a reflex. If my leg kicks forward and connects with your shin, you could call it abuse. It could still be a reflex -- based on years and years of conditioning, training and practice that taught me "When someone does ABC, the automatic response is to kick."

Is that still abuse?

It hurts the same regardless of what we call it. But doesn't calling it abuse make it something negative whereas if we call it a reflex, isn't that more neutral? (Never positive, just not as negative.)

I used to think my mother was horribly abusive. (And I really struggle to write this because it is not my intention to hurt her in any way. No, dunno if she reads the website, dunno if she's read the book, dunno much except her name, birthdate and address anymore! LOL)

Anyway, I used to think my mother was horribly abusive. Cruel, callous, mean, nasty, vicious, rotten, evil ... you name it, I thought it.

And then I grew up and was able to step out from her shadow. As I learned more about myself and about her -- directly from her, indirectly from other people, through other topics which helped explain certain things -- I began to realize: she did the best she could.

She didn't set out to hurt me.

She didn't set out to make me cringe at the thought of being around her.

She didn't set out to be jealous of me.

She didn't set out to resent me.

She didn't set out to punish me harshly and regularly.

She didn't set out to be the parent she was.

Instead, she reacted to my presence and acted in accordance with the tools and coping skills she had been given & learned to use (quite effectively!)

Knowing these things 20 years later didn't remove the sting of the hairbrush when I was 7 - nothing could go back in time and do that. But knowing them as an adult still lessened the depth of feeling toward it. The actions were no longer a personal thing against me for being a whiny, crying child who could do nothing correctly.

They were HER actions. They were wrong (according to my personal code of behaviour) but they were HERS and with the recognition that those actions were her reactions rather than malicious abuse (even if it seemed malicious at the time or even now) against me as a human being allowed me to let go of them.

I took off the Abuse Glasses in August of 2001. (I'm not saying I destroyed them and have never since looked through them but I no longer see every little thing as abuse. I see it more as "Wow, it must suck to be that person if that's how they handle situations!" My life is MUCH happier and easy-going now as a result.)

While it may still qualify as abuse under the strictest sense of the word, a more compassionate (less Abuse Glasses) perspective is more understanding of the bigger picture. It's less personal (even if it's directed toward you personally) and more about their inability to cope effectively.

I think you're "in the cage" on this, Jody. I don't expect you to be out of the cage this quickly. I'm just hopeful that you're able to recognize when you're inside it at this point, that's all.

Ash, its fine if we disagree. i know my definition doesnt jibe with a lot here, nor yours . its cool. its mine. yours are yours, because i dont think we are talking about the same thing from the same place.

"""""If my leg kicks forward and connects with your shin, you could call it abuse"""". no, i wouldnt Ash. abuse has a response it is looking for. control, owning another., sending out pain to avoid their own. abuse is always about control in some form. a behavior chosen for that. reflexes wouldnt come under that, girl.

a reflex is a uncontrollable body function of a muscle. abuse is a concious behavior to control someone or some thing. most times to control the abusers own inner pain.

how we see it or feel it doesnt make it abuse. its act of itself makes it abuse. however, we can change how we see, feel, or behave with it.

how to word this? john kicks you. he wants you to move. he cant ask it nicely. he resorts to violence to control your movement. or he resorts to emotional---cant you move your stupid leg, you moron? dont you see i need to go by? abuse*. not abuse---would you please move your leg so i can get up?

we may always disagree on this. i consider someone behaving in a certain manner abuse. you dont. do we have to agree? no. what matters is i see how i can choose to respond.

i do think putting the idea on ourselves, that something is only abuse if we call it that, flies in the face of all my DV teachings i have gotten and continue to get.

john has called you , every morning, a ignorant stupid fat ass. is this abuse? yes. say you ignore it and smile at the wordings. its still abuse. john begins every morning with a cheery good morning honey! is this abuse? no. even in my wildest dreams, this can not become abuse due to my own stuff. i cant "make" abuse be there. i can control how i respond.

if i can create its abuse, i can uncreate its abuse. nope. dont agree at all. inflicting pain is always abuse. the act of trying to inflict pain is always abuse. john shoots at me. abuse*. i cant uncreate that. john kisses me tenderly. i cant create that to be abuse.

that puts the responsibility on the victims or survivors and we already own enough of the abusers shit as it is. we dont need this added to it, that we "create" the abuse.

the amount of pain involved doesnt make it abusive. some things dont hurt me any longer in any form, but the behavior is STILL abuse. i just dont care anymore enough to be hurt.

you said"""""I no longer see every little thing as abuse. I see it more as "Wow, it must suck to be that person if that's how they handle situations!" My life is MUCH happier and easy-going now as a result.)"""". i also have done this. still do. today, actually. laughing at my H wanting to kill all the democrats or something. it is pitiful. it is sad to be that way. it does suck to be him. doesnt hurt me. but its still abusive./ being abuse doesnt require a hurt victim. i no longer see every SINGLE thing as abuse. i see a LOT still, yes. that is gonna take time to work out for me. as i learn the lists of abuse, i can easier figure out what is abuse and what isnt.

see, abuse doesnt need a victim. or pain. it still can be abuse, we dont have to own it or feel it. but their still abusive.

my ex SIL used to stand in parking lots and scream obscenities at me and my daughter. did it hurt us? no. but it was abuse. all he hurt was his voice. but it was wrong behavior. it was ugly. it was loud. lol.

Ash, its very hard for me (i may never) be able to have compassion for abuse. i dont want to at the moment and im very early in my recovery about abuse. but they choose this shit to put forth, and i can keep it away, but i still cant feel compassion for the person doing it. i pity them in their closed up closet. but i dont feel sorry or compassion for their need to inflict pain.

just my view, as yours is yours and its all good cant we agree to disagree on this? please set forth your views, of course. just dont be surprised when i dont agree with it all, ok?

i have a short tolerance for meaness and rudeness. i may always, i dont know where i will end up when --if---im ever done. this counseling for cptsd and abuse is very deep. very time consuming. its a deep issue. i havent even got my anger over with. im very sensitive to someone behaving to hurt another. or not caring another might hurt or not. i have almost zero tolerance for that lately. i can work on the tolerance and how i respond or to not respond. but i wont like the person doing or trying it.

im glad it didnt take you so long to recover as it will me. i wish i was a fast tracker and boom..im healed. i wont be. no matter how hard i try, another layer is still there waiting. i am just me and recovering best as i know how and can accomplish.

Borderline personality disorder is a conscious behaviour to avoid abandonment.

Borderline personality disorder is a conscious behaviour to have unstable relationships.

Borderline personality disorder is a conscious behaviour to have an unstable self of self.

Borderline personality disorder is a conscious behaviour to be impulsive.

Borderline personality disorder is a conscious behaviour to have unstable moods.

Borderline personality disorder is a conscious behaviour to feel chronically empty.

Borderline personality disorder is a conscious behaviour to display uncontrollable anger.

Borderline personality disorder is a conscious behaviour to dissociate.

If being abusive to others is a conscious behaviour choice, I would say: so is acting borderline. So is standing on the train tracks. So is picking one's nose. So is speeding. Everything is a choice. And until we receive appropriate consequences for our actions and learn more effective decision-making skills, we will continue to do all the "bad" things we "shouldn't" do.

i guess we cant agree to disagree but i still will ....

hope its ok.

"""""And until we receive appropriate consequences for our actions and learn more effective decision-making skills, we will continue to do all the "bad" things we "shouldn't" do.""" do i need some kind of consequences?

consequences will not work on certain behaviors. abuse, in some people, is one. jail, even death is their choice. that is why anger management isnt working in some cases.
certain abusers will not learn, ever, from any consequences. some people want to learn and will face their childhoods and their issues. some wont. some cant, as it is their mechanism to "live" the only way they know how.

i stand by my words. abuse is a concious choice to control another to avoid feeling their own pain and lack of control over it. because its concious, doesnt mean it is controllable all the time or all they need to do is "choose" other ways. it comes from a deep childhood issue of shame and being abused. processes i doubt most are aware of when they begin. they must learn those processes to change it. but that means facing their demons, and many cant do that yet.

please lets agree to disagree, ok?

Jody, remember, I'm talking about a situation where one can walk away.

It doesn't matter what the other person chooses. If I'm not there to recieve it, it's not abuse. He may choose actions that are abusive. (I like what Ash says. But I'm going to simplify and talk for the moment like abuse is black and white.) But if I take away the target, he can't do the abusive action he chose.

A friend talks meanly to me. Puts me down. Says things about me that are nasty and untrue. I sit there and take it. I engage him. He continues. Is it abuse? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Not a clear no, though.

I instead walk away. I don't make myself available for him to talk to. Is there any abuse? No. I haven't let it be. It's not abuse because it's not happening; I don't let it.

Jody, you quote me: "Rather, how do I respond? It's not abuse if I don't let it be."

I wasn't there saying my response makes it abuse or not. Two separate sentences there. How I respond doesn't define someone else's behavior. But abuse takes two. I don't have to let myself be abused. I don't have to be the recipient of it.

The rhetorical question that you quote there actually went with the sentence before it, which you don't quote, not the one after it. The full thought was: "There's no reason to think in terms of if it is or isn't abuse. Rather, how do I respond?" I think it's the same thing as what Ash calls taking off the abuse glasses.


It seems to me that someone's thinking is part of their response. And, it seems like you are saying, it's abuse because you think it's abuse. It's abuse because you see it that way; another person may choose to respond to insults without defining them as abuse.

And remember, I was talking about the example of a social gathering. I'm not talking about what happens in a marriage. I'm not talking about how parents treat children. I'm talking about how people I know at the bar treat me, or how people on a message board treat me, etc.

And I'm specifically saying that's a different situation than within a marriage, or otherwise within a family, or even roommates. If my husband calls me a fat pig that's a very different thing than a friend I hang out with, or a person I kinda know, or someone on a message board, calling me a fat pig.

Since you specifically bring up an SO example, I'm thinking you didn't get that I was not talking about what happens in a marriage there. I think I should have been clearer on that. I wasn't talking about marriage when I said "It's not abuse if I don't let it be." I was, as I indicated, talking about social situations. I think, with spouses, the situation is too complex for something simple like that.

Uhm, Jody ... ?

I was agreeing with you.

It is a choice -- to continue to use poor coping skills, to lash out at people nearby, to stay in a pattern, to refuse (or unable as you say, but this is where we can agree to disagree) to learn new skills.


Does the comparison between the Abuser and the Borderline trouble you?

Does it bother you to think that there's a very fine line between your behaviour and that of your husband / mother?

P.S. The reason I specifically mentioned parents, but not spouses is because I was thinking about invalidation, and there the contrast in situations is stongest. If a stranger at the bar calls me a fat pig, it's not invalidating. Because his opinion doesn't matter to me. If a parent calls a child a fat pig, it's a very very different situation.

And even for those of us inclinded to be quite bothered by the stranger's comment, who take it personally, still, very different from the parent saying it.

Those are the two extremes -- the two situations I can think of that are most vastly different, about how the invalidation and abuse thing works out.

""""Does it bother you to think that there's a very fine line between your behaviour and that of your husband / mother?""""

umm, Ash, i best ask you to please clarify and define this and what you mean and what your telling me?

since you dont know my mother or my H, i dont know what you mean and what im assuming you mean , you cant possibly.

so i need to know, please?

ellen, i feel like this may be the age old question of "if a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make any sound?

i think each of us will have our own views and beliefs on this. which im fine with........

ellen, walking away or not, i still think it will be abuse. thats just me. my beliefs. i do not think how anyone takes it matters. or who they are who said it. this may be where we are not connecting with the same ideas.

Ash, people have to be able to face their stuff and parents stuff before they are able to truly change their own coping skills. as what i have been taught*. some are unable to face this..they are broken in whatever way happened. some arent. this isnt one size fits all.

the comparison between borderline and abusers did not bother me as my T and other studies believe a high percentage of abusers are borderline.

borderline comes from abandoment. neglect, abuse can all be perceived by children as abandonment. many studies have been done on why some turn out to abuse, some turn out victims, some turn out fine and neither way. i think it goes back to genetics, and what some authors call "enlightened witnesses"..caregivers of whatever sort who cared for the abused child. victims usually had these caregivers, abusers "usually" didnt. not always..just a percentage.

""""Uhm, Jody ... ?

I was agreeing with you.""""

in public? you admit it? lol....JOKING!!!

From all descriptions and stories over the years, the behavior of both your mother and husband was, is, has been, can be abusive.

Since we're agreeing that they're making a choice to be abusive and the same logic applies to borderline behavior, your behaviour (in making the choices to continue in an unhealthy pattern) is similar to their behaviour (to also make choices to continue in an unhealthy pattern.)

I'm not suggesting you're an abuser like the way you've portrayed them.

I'm struggling to learn how this debate is relevant to anyone's strategy for recovery. Assuming that my sense of recovery.... finding and adopting alternative responses to difficult situations so that our responses (behavior and thought patterns) do not cause harm for yourself or others... then what difference does it make if everyone agrees that a certain behavior should carry the label of abuse or not?

If it leads to a reaction (behavior pattern/thought pattern) that causes pain in me or in others I care about, it's a reaction that I want to change so that I may move closer to a "healthy happy life".

So let's say, for argument's sake, that even though the half dozen or so most popular or commonly used definitions of abuse contain a considerable amount of difference... let's say that despite that Hellga Hummer says something that just about everyone here thinks is abusive or is abuse. What difference does that make to your recovery strategy? What specifically do you do differently as a result of that new consensus?

And if we bring it down to the board level... let's say that Hellga Hummer is a member here and writes something that is painful for Jody. And let's say that twenty people agree that Hellga's statement was seriously abusive. What does Jody do differently to avoid the pain of figuring out how to respond to that in the future?

I'm afraid that it DOES take two for there to be abuse. There must be a victim for a statement to be abusive or else it's just nasty noise. If you or I are hurt once by Hellga's abusive statement and then fail to invoke the ignore function here, then you and I are primarily responsible for the second incident of pain. It is as much our responsibility and "fault" as it is Hellga's. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

And about 80% of Borderlines are female. Hmmm. Does that math lead us to the conclusion that most abusers are female?

yes Ash, i agree with that.

the diff i see is i am trying to change. counseling, group, here, reading, listening to tapes, books. i dont know that my mom was capable of change and my H either, altho he isnt interested in trying.

i had no idea how hard it would be, to be sure. the more i learn, the more it simply uncovers to learn so far. but the lightbulbs are so worth it! to feel hey, i got it, just for once!

hard to say but i suspect most if not all of my moms was from her accident at 4 with her brain damage.

i appreciate all your views, Ash. i hope my trying to work on things shows some day in my behaviors.