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I've become aware just recently that although I probably no longer fit the criteria for PTSD, I appear to have all the symptoms of another disorder. I fit the DSM-IV criteria for avoidant PD or it's less severe form - social anxiety. And I now feel like I have a whole new set of challenges to overcome.

I just wondered how common it is as one works through the layers of defences/behaviours of one psychiatric condition, that symptoms of another disorder emerge? Has anybody else experienced this?

I would say in more severe cases of mental illness it is not too unusual to have more than one dx and that it isn't too rare to work more directly on one which may leave another sitting by the wayside. How common it is, I have no idea- never discussed with a professional and never read anything about such. Myself, I prefer a more pracitical approach as did the 2 T's that helped me the most- the dx and what you do matter only in so far as how it affects your life; how you are living.

That said, your post did bring a couple flags up for me:

1) From how you have phrased the above, it sounds as if you have dx'd yourself.

2) Social anxiety. To me that is really really broad and to some degree everyone has it so I feel as tho I just read one of those commercials on TV or in a magazine and I am being offered some meds. And, avoidant personality disorder well ya an extreme form of the above- but actually the disorder itself?

I guess here I am looking at BPD and how everyone has traits yet only a small number of people have the disorder. There are times I feel I am ready to label a number of people with BPD, yet, that isnt the case.

My flags are about my own stuff, but the question it raises to me is more about what arena you are comfortable in. I know people who are always taking classes; or who are always looking for the next program from which to make their million and retire. And truely, yep, I do know someone that is constantly schemeing for their retirement. So, if that gives their life focus- much as a marathon runner; or a bicyclist; or a gymrat; or dancer.. then so be it. It provides them an arena in which to function; something that their life is about and dictates or directs. But in truth, your post did bring these things to mind- what is life without a DX? without a label?

Not quite the feedback you are looking for, I imagine, but questions that arose from your post.

Guess your last sentence had me wondering about you needing a challenge in life.

I think that in order for you to know for sure if you have this diagnosis, you'd need a professional to meet with you and decide if indeed you do have this. Sometimes we think we may have a certain diagnosis, but in reality we may only have some traits.

My T diagnosed me with BPD. Then along the way he told me I had schizotypal behavior. I don't have all the criteria for it, just some of the criteria. He isn't alarmed by this so I don't think about it too much. I'm sure that he incorporates some of this into my therapy, though maybe I'm not aware of it.

It's not uncommon for some of us to have more than one diagnosis. But as I said, we need a professional to let us know if we truly have it. Are you seeing a T right now? Have you talked to him/her about it? That would be my suggestion - that you talk to your T about it. Again, you might not have the full-blown diagnosis but just some traits. Then you and your T can talk about how this applies to your life and what you can do about it.

Congrats on overcoming the PTSD stuff! That's a HUGE accomplishment! I hope you're terribly proud of yourself for that! (You did a fantastic job with the hand surgery issues.)

Do you think that maybe there's any chance you're seeking the next set of challenges? That maybe you've always had something to overcome and the thought of being (for the most part) challenge-free is freaking you out?

I'm thinking of the Empty Nest syndrome. A mother who is very focused on nurturing and caring for her children suddenly feels lost, forlorn and bereft when the last child moves out of the house - she doesn't quite know what to do with her days anymore, to occupy her hands or her mind. It's usually at this time when some women will talk of having another child (a late-life baby) or they'll start pushing the grown children to produce grandchildren or they'll dive headlong into a hobby of some sort.

I don't mean to diminish fears or concerns or challenges. Since we've said that Borderline is essentially an exaggerated form of basic humanity, that means that most of the diagnostic criteria for BPD are also displayed to much lesser degrees by all of humanity. I think you're pretty darn "normal" for whatever that's worth. You know yourself best, of course, but given the fervor with which you've tackled your BPD/PTSD stuff and the dedication & dilligence you've displayed on that front, I have a really hard time trying to picture the avoidant piece. Social awkwardness or shyness does not automatically mean Personality Disorder. I think you might be too hard on yourself for whatever reason.

Yes Smilin, at this point in time, my AvPD concerns are self-diagnosed. I don't believe that I am just looking for a new set of problems to overcome. I believe they've always been there, but have somehow been over-shadowed by the other stuff.

A cardinal symptom of PTSD is avoidance - but it's generally avoidance of situations that may trigger into past trauma. The avoidance I have become painfully aware of now is of healthy risk-taking, expanding my social life, forming new relationships and living & enjoying life. A new set of feelings have arisen for me. Loneliness being a biggie, as well as boredom. When I was in the throes of PTSD, all that internal chaos, it didn't matter to me that I had few relationships and almost zero social life. I preferred to be alone and isolated. I liked quiet and lots of solitude. In fact I needed it. It was a safety matter. I was never bored. I had so much going on internally. I had no time to be bored.

So now, I no longer have the "internal chaos." I'm no longer just surviving life on a day-to-day basis, but I'm really not living it, either. SO, what I'm left with is a lot of free time on my hands. I have always been so serious and hard-working so have never really learned how to relax and have fun. I have every now and then taken on a new "work project" such as study or an exercise program, but have self-sabotaged and quit because what's screaming on the inside is "I'm tired of working. I just want to have some fun." There is no balance in my life between work and play. I don't need another "work project." What I need is to have more fun, pleasurable activities and pastimes.

What am I doing with the free-time? I'm sleeping it away. Rather than take the risks necessary to get involved in more pleasurable past-times. This is where those DSM-IV traits appear.



BG - I plan to discuss the AvPD stuff with my therapist. I'm aware that the final stage of treatment with Complex PTSD - is over-coming the phobias associated with normal life, so it may well be that what I'm experiencing isn't a separate dx.

Amanda, I can understand how you may be feeling now. I would imagine after all the hard work you've done you're now exhausted and need a rest. But I'm glad you're going to talk to your T about it. There may be other reasons why you're avoiding socializing and things like that. Maybe you just don't have the oomph right now. By talking to your T you can get to the bottom of things. I wish you lots of luck!

How interesting, Amanda. After doing a bit of reading about AvPD, I can see how someone who has made progress in recovery from BPD, for example and perhaps CPTSD would look at these criteria and see their own behavior a plenty. I easily see them in my behavior patterns. Do I have four active traits over a sustained period? Depends on who you talk to, I guess. Does it tell me it might be well to pay a bit of attention? Oh, yes.

Here's some excellent introductory writing about AvPD. It looks a lot like the patterns of BPD minus the SI and suicidal ideation and a few other acute patterns.http://ivy_league0.tripod.com/rhyme_of_the_ancient_wanderer/id45.html Could be my imagination, but I think I may be seeing signs of this stuff all over the place at BPDR !!!!

I spoke with my therapist about my concerns today. Yes, there are cluster of "avoidant type symptoms" operating within me, but there is no need for a dx or a label. The root of it seems to stem from a lack of self worth, self-confidence & self-esteem. That deep seated core feeling of "who I am is not ok." There's a lot of feelings of inadequacy, inferiority and failure. I have difficulty seeing what value I have and a sense of being different and not really belonging or fitting in, anywhere. I don't get all excited when I achieve something. I see them as "no big deal. Any Jo-Schmo could do that." I certainly don't see myself as "normal" whatever that's supposed to mean. These aren't new feelings. They just seem to have come to the fore now, because other things are more settled for me. Other people may see me in a completely different light, but their views of me are irrelevant if it's not what I feel and believe inside of me.

IBF - I'm not seeing what you are seeing when you say this "avoidance" stuff is all over the board. I see people avoiding looking at their own issues (would rather focus on somebody else's.) I see people avoiding taking responsibility for "their stuff." I see people avoiding looking at advice and suggestions offered to them. This isn't the type of avoidance I am experiencing. My avoidance is to do with avoiding interpersonal contact/communication (not of looking within and being willing to look at a solution being offered to me) because of a feeling/sense of being "less than", inadequate etc, etc.

Here's an example of the type of avoidance I'm meaning.

How many times have I responded to a thread, or started a thread and hit the back button, rather than posting? Hundreds! Why, because I feel stupid, inadequate, inferior and think nobody would be interested in what I had to say anyway. I initially wrote this thread and hit submit, and within 10 minutes of posting, I wished I hadn't. I felt stupid for writing, scared of the responses I'd get and figured nobody would get it anyway, and it seems to me that nobody did. I'm not making up a new set of issues because I'm freaked out at being challenge free. I'm freaked out because I'm recognising that I have serious "internal issues" with avoidance in interpersonal relationships, including with members of my immediate family.

Avoidance in interpersonal relationships isn't something I think anybody could recognise on a message board. How would anybody know if I was avoiding them, unless I told them directly? How would anybody know that I was avoiding sharing an opinion or suggestion? I read posts and I have a ton of thoughts, opinions, ideas on them, but I often can't bring myself to share them. The problem is due to my own internal feelings of inadequacy and inferiority. My H & kids know when I'm avoiding, because I withdraw and isolate myself. How would you recognise that on a message board?

And yeah, I'm going to do the "avoidance thing" again and drop this post now.

I'm glad you discussed it with your T and she was able to validate some of what you wrote. Sounds like she is willing to help you work on some of that and feels a good portion is about how you see yourself and how you project that onto others (something I also do).

I think tho that you jumped to a big conclusion when you stated that those of us who felt you were looking for the next challenge didnt relate. Your post wasnt asking if people related or had similiar experiences- you stated that you had all the traits (or numerous) of avoidant personality and you asked if it was common for people to peel layers back and have more 'stuff' to deal with. For me that then put the focus not on social anxiety, but on 'the work'.

I would imagine you could find a number of people here who relate to social anxiety and perhaps even a few or more who also relate to apd. Myself, I've not bothered to read other dx's as I see it more about how I can improve my social life than I do how can I overcome various symptoms. I just don't care to label it.

The other thing that feels a little bit like some black and white thinking is that no one here could tell if one had anxiety issues or not, since this is a message board. Imo, that is exactly why message boards are so successful... it allows people who don't function that well in 3d to have some social contacts.

Yes, I think I had that in a BIG way, moreso than bpd. I think parts of it I still DO have, such as:

People with the anxious personality disorder have a tendency to avoid activities by a habitual exaggeration of the potential dangers or risks involved.
Historically, this pattern has been described as being preoccupied with security and strained in associating with people.
also sees the key traits of AvPD as social reticence and avoidance of interpersonal activities.
Individuals with AvPD will develop intimacy with people who are experienced as safe

I believe I had social phobia and AvPD, in a big way, at certain times of my life. In fact, after reading that, I think it may've been my main diagnosis at certain points. I think I've overcome most of it, but I still avoid a lot of activities because of risk or danger, and certain people because of the same. I think some of that may work to my advantage, and I'm not sure how much of that I need to get rid of, but I'm going to test it a bit and see.

Yes, I think I am seeing a whole lot of that around here too, ibf.

I've spent a lot of time (prob too much time) lately on self-dx.
I can find find similarities in myself in BPD,APD,NPD...
Although realizing I may have this or that and that it "has a name" is very helpful in accepting that I have a distorted view of reality that isn't normal and isn't shared by a majority of the population, It hasn't done anything for helping me to actually change. Sometimes it is actually depressing because it can easily become overwhelming - for me anyways.

I guess its like a first step in a trip, acceptance. You can't get anywhere if you don't know where you are at.
The next step should be where am I going? Or as I have also heard it "begin with the end in mind".
Now I can begin the work!

This works great with the Five Steps. But for me the most important thing so far is to keep it to a short trip! One that I know I can get to the end of. Then start another one.

If you think about peeling off the layers consider it a journey. If any of us ever thinks we have come to the end we are fooling ourselves. To use eastern philosophy - when you have nothing left to learn you are "dead". Thinking on this - I always hope the day will come when I can look at making changes in my life in a positive light.

Like "Hey I realize that I could improve this or that and doing so would make my relationship with so and so better" and dive into this with enthusiasm!

Right now with the effects of the bpd it can be a struggle to get past the guilt and shame of there "being somthing wrong with me" I really don't need to dig around to keep finding more things that are wrong with me. That just sets the destination further and further away.

I can relate to Avoidance in terms of avoiding taking risks to do something I know I might enjoy Amanda. Do you do this all the time or just sometimes? I seem to go through phases now, but a while back I did it all the time. I thought you were asking about whether you could have uncovered another disorder. I am inclined to agree with others that suggest perhaps not viewing it as a new disorder n more as an issue might be the way forward.

How do I deal with avoidance? Feel the fear, make a detailed risk assessment sometimes and others I just go for it, trying to think in terms of I have nothing to lose by trying.

Quite a while back I ran a thread in which I was talking about just being able to be sociable with people. I started with the mums at the school gates I used to stand on the opposite side of the road and wait for people to go so I didnt mingle with people. The first thing I challenged myself to do was just to be present amongst people. Everything since then has been built up slowly. I went out last night socially with a group of those mums but it has taken me a while to feel that I might be able to take the next step there. even then prior to going i felt a tad unsure. It actually went well and they were discussing going to see one of the big shows out of town soon. I would really like to go and perhaps now having been out near to home and having had a good experience wih it. I might be able to go further.

Perhaps you could think about where you would like to be and then break it down to the smallest amount you feel you can handle...look for an opportunity and work from there. Extending the comfort zone a bit at a time. I have found it a good way to build up my confidence and self esteem that way.

I still battle with it, but looking back over the last year or so I have come quite a way one piece at a time and discovered a lot about myself and what I like and dont like along the way.

I also often think perhaps I might have said the wrong thing or could have deleted the post cos I feel inadequate. Have even thought tyhat since writing this last one. It is why I don't edit my posts well enough to take out the typos and errors. (I might work on that some more soon) Are plenty of them above. If I did that though I wouldnt have made this or many other posts. As rather than edit it would have been another deleted post.

I'm not getting this:

I had it in my mind that I was asking if others had similar experiences, but realise that perhaps I might have worded my original post better - Leaving out the "labels." Perhaps I could have said: "Have others experienced that as one works through one set of mental health related issues, they discover another cluster of issues, or have more issues come to the fore?" When I put it that way, my question actually sounds really stupid to me now. As confused1 said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here either:

I'm aware that some people use online boards as a way to have some sort of social contact, but does one then automatically assume that all people who use online message boards are anxious in 3D relationships? Nobody knows why anybody uses an online message board unless they've actually said why. Your statement to me, also seems a tad black and white. I have no way of knowing who's anxious and who isn't, unless I ask them, or they share this information with me.

To those of you who objected to my use of labelling to define a cluster of symptoms I am experiencing: My T stopped me dead in my tracks on that one too - LOL. Why do I need to label them? Through discussion it became aware to me that I have had a tendency to "label a cluster of symtpoms" as a way to handle my internal sense/feelings of "not belonging." If I can fit myself into the "same little box" as a bunch of other people, I'm telling myself "I might fit in there, because we've got similar problems." But as my T pointed out to me, this has actually been ineffective - even when I share a label with a bunch of other people, I still don't feel that I fit in. This is more to do with my internal views of myself (as Smilin said) that I am projecting onto others. If I see myself X way, then everybody else must see me in the same way!

This too applies.



A great deal of the time, more so, than not. I guess I've always conformed and went along with what other people wanted to do or expected me to do (even if I hated it), and have never been given the freedom, had the energy or given myself permission to do something that I would like to do.

My T suggested pretty much the same thing, Tracy. "Feel the fear and do it anyway." Pick an activity that I'd like to do, then gradually expose myself to that. We're also going to be working on my negative views of myself, amongst other things. One of the first things I have to figure out is "If Amanda was free to do whatever she wanted to do, then what would she like to do?" I know that probably sounds weird, but that's where I'm at. Tracy - I'm glad you didn't delete your post. It was encouraging.

Just noticed this thread and boy do I sympathize with your feelings Amanda.


I too have difficulties recognizing when I achieve something special, I always see the flaws or what I could have done better. We need to spend time and reflect on the good things we have accomplished or are accomplishing and try to eliminate negative thoughts. (Not easy I know)



I often feel the same when I think of responding to a thread but we have to remind ourselves that we make up excuses just to avoid doing something that we think we may not get something of value out of. I also need to remember that I have to give in order to get something back, to reduce my expectations of always getting something in return and to always recognize when something good comes back.

For the last year or so I have felt like I keep finding out more about myself and may never get to the end of the tunnel. Maybe it is because I have become more and more insightful to myself and life around me. Hopefully it is not because I have a subconscious need to find flaws in myself.



So true with me too because my avoidant behaviors are always when I am face to face or over the phone. For example: not making eye contact, being impatient, giving very short answers, if anything, to friendly remarks, etc, etc. A lot of this is due to ingrained behaviors that will take lots of work to recognize and overcome. I also feel that a lot of this is due to my dysthemia (or chronic mild depression) and I have a hard time convincing myself that the effort will be worth it.

Don't be too hard on yourself about needing to be alone at times. Pushing yourself to be more social can be very tiring for us who are introverts and I feel that some me-time is always okay.

I don't have any real pearls of wisdom to pass on to you, but wanted to tell you how much I relate you what you've discussed here Amanda. I saw a psychic recently who told me that I avoid adventure bc I'm afraid. I didn't really need to be told that but you know how it impacts upon you when you hear it from someone else's mouth. He said that my life could be so much more if I let go of the baggage others give me. Said I was like a magnet to other people's stuff and I just carry all this other stuff around with me, weighing me down. Obstacles in my way of what I really want. So much so that I daren't even consider what I do want, bc the obstacles have already decided it's not possible. I don't allow myself to dream of achievement, success and happiness.

So, what I've been trying to do lately is allow myself this...umm...indulgence? Opportunity? I've been allowing myself to dream and acknowledge that there are things I want in life. I've been trying to allow myself the gift of saying "Sarah - you can have what you want" and meanwhile acknowledging and accepting that all of those obstacles, all of the internal messages I get that tell my I can't do it aren't my views. They belong to others and the reason they gave me those views is bc of their crap. I'm allowing positive messages that resonate with my actual beliefs about myself to penetrate. I'm working on hearing the truth rather than the repressive lies of others. And I'm hoping that this way I will develop more of the confidence I need to take those risks you talk about. Risks of making new friends, of fulfilling my career ambitions, etc etc.

Just remember Amanda that you have faced challenges head on. You went back to uni and faced all those demons. Ash raised how well you dealt with the surgery you were so confronted by. Avoidance isn't the only option bc when yo haven't avoided the evidence shows success. SO perhaps you can call upon some of this evidence as a confidence boost when you sense you're avoiding something.

Amanda, since you took the time to quote my passages and comment, I will address your statements:



I think yes, your wording may have been misleading. And to clarify why I agree with that statement let me back track and put the relevent part of my post here (you only posted one line which on its own loses what I was saying):



So a more condensed way of phrasing my thought is:


which is addressing this statement of yours:


This read to me as tho you were upset that people here did not relate to the social anxiety issue when in fact your original post was about and even titled peeling back the layers.. and you asked can anyone relate:


So, yes, it wasn't clear to me that you wanted to discuss social anxiety in this thread.

You then said you felt I was using black and white thinking, but I don't quite agree. I did not use qualifiers yet you do..



I may not know, but, I can deduce from years of being on the internet and from having discussions with enough individuals to know why they are on message boards. So, no, I don't feel I it was black and white statement, but yes a very general and broad one.

I hope this clarifies a little bit as to what I said, and where I was coming from. I was speaking of my experience with others on the internet, boards in particular and I was indeed talking about peeling back the layers.

Well actually I wasn't upset that they didn't relate to social anxiety. I was upset about the fact that people seemed to think "I was making up a new set of issues." "Looking for a new work project." It seems I wasn't being taken seriously when I said I had discovered more layers.

I can't say that I understand your way of thinking with your focus being on the "work aspect" because the intent of my original post was not meant to be focused on the "work aspect of it." It was focused on "peeling back the layers" and becoming aware of more issues, but I do appreciate you taking the time to explain where you were coming from.

The focus of the post has somewhat detoured into the content of those uncovered layers. When I originally posted I had no intention of having a discussion about social anxiety.

As for this: "And I now feel like I have a whole new set of challenges to overcome." Without tone of voice, I guess this could sound like I was excited about having a new set of challenges, but that wasn't the way I was feeling. In fact, I'm somewhat gutted that I've made it this far, only to find that there's still more shit to deal with. I've come out of "survival mode" only to find that I'm still not fully able to "live life."

As far as peeling back the layers go, I think that when we're in therapy we're always uncovering different parts of ourselves, and different traits that we have. For instance, I was diagnosed with BPD almost 3 years ago. It never would have occurred to me that I had that, yet as I began to read about it and talk to my T, yes, the diagnosis made sense. Then a few months ago my T started talking about schizotypal traits that I have. We discussed that a bit. So it is like peeling back the layers of an onion. I dont' think it's a bad thing. We're just learning things about ourselves. I wouldn't say they're bad or good - they just are traits about ourselves that we uncover. We can choose how we react to learning about these traits. It's all a learning process.

I think we posted on top of each other Amanda. I hope you will read what I wrote and relate it to your recent post. As far as living life, I dont' think that just because we are peeling back the layers and learning new things, that we can't get out there and live life. Therapy does not exist in a vacuum. We still have those 6 days and 23 hours to live life. We can take the tools we learn and apply them to living. Sure, sometimes we'll screw up but that's what happens - we're human.

When I first began having dissociative attacks, my mother sent me to a therapist. I was 15 years old. I was very naive. I thought the woman would tell me what's wrong, tell me how to fix it and I could go home. I would be fixed!!!! Well, I was so wrong! Learning about ourselves is an on-going event. It never stops.

I am not saying you have this or that. What it all boils down to basically is how well you function. (That's what my T would say). If you're functioning okay, then you can deal with whatever you learn about yourself.

I also used to think that one day everything in my life would fall into place and I would never have to worry again. My life would be wonderful. I'd have a beautiful house, perfect husband and child, beautiful clothes, enough money, etc. etc. Picture a wall - I would be at the wall and life would be perfect. But what I learned is that life flows - it's like a river. So we go from one thing to another. Gosh, it took me many many years to understand and accept this. I still struggle with it. What I'm trying to say is that we will always have things to work on. Some may be more dramatic than others, but we will never stop. I think it's how we approach these issues that makes a difference.

I hope what I wrote makes sense.

That doesn't sound weird because I have had to ponder that same question for myself. I tend to be so busy doing what I "should" do that I don't even consider my options.

BG - I function reasonably well in day-to-day life. I go to work, I raise my kids, etc and the routine stuff falls into place. Yes, there are sometimes hiccups and I can deal with them independently most of the time. I'm however, no longer on the chaotic rollercoaster ride where everything is triggering and I'm feeling in constant turmoil. Routine day to day life is generally calm and peaceful.

I was actually in the process of winding down therapy, so I think you may have got me wrong when you said "therapy does not exist in a vacuum." Therapy is something I now do, on an as-needed basis and I generally leave it there when I depart and get on with normal day-to-day life.

I've stayed in this calm/comfortable little space for quite some time, but the thing was, I started to feel bored with the same old routine. I had all this free time on my hands that I used to spend battling the bumps on the rollercoatser ride and working through the turmoil. So I started to think about how to fill that time. I recognised that I needed more balance in my life between have-to-do's, work and play. My life is/was lacking more leisurely, relaxed, pass-times so decided that this was what I needed to fill up that free time. I could see myself doing X, Y or Z, but do you think I could bring myself to take the risks and get out there and do it? No. I stayed stuck in this rut of boredom; and have been there for quite some time. I finally decided to face the problem. It was at that point, I recognised the source of the problem: that I still have a lot of anxiety about being more socially active, and find a lot of self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy creeping in, that seem to be preventing me from making that break.

This is what I mean by "not living life." Perhaps I should say "I'm not living it to the fulllest" or maybe even "My life is lacking fun, pleasurable activities. There's no balance." I hope this explains the situation a little better.

Sarah - Your post was really helpful. It's an entirely new and scary concept to me - indulgence/opportunity? Do something that is for me? As I said earlier in the thread "If Amanda was free to do whatever she wanted to do, then what would she like to do?" This isn't an easy question for me to answer, because Amanda has always done what other people wanted her to do, expected her to do (even if she hated it) and has never really figured out what she likes. The few things that I do think I'd like to do are not things that my my H is interested in; nor any of the handful of friends that I have, so these activities would mean going alone and that terrifies me.

It was interesting though - a new concept that my T raised, that had never entered into my mind, was to ask my H to join me even knowing that it wasn't really his thing, as she reminded me that I frequently go along to things that he is interested in, (like soccer, golf & parties) even though they don't particularly interest me much. If it's good enough for me to do this, to be there for him, then why should he not do the same for me? Even if it's only to break the ice, until I meet some new people who share these interests? The thought had never entered my mind. I always thought: Why would I invite somebody along to an activity that they weren't interested in? See, I learned in my family that if they didn't like something, they would discourage me from doing it, even to the point of telling me that I was wrong for liking it. Anyway, she gave me something to think about and I'm planning to take action on that.



This sounds really great. I'm going to to be looking into this some more with my T - The negative self-beliefs that have been programmed into my head that seem to hold me back, how I can overcome them, and learn to see myself in a more positive frame of light; I guess more in line with how her and others view me (which definitely seem far more postive than my own self-views.) Thankyou for your post. It gave me a lot of stuff to think about.

I am gathering that if you had it to do over, you would write the sentence differently now, because you think you made some mistakes in writing it. Does that mean the sentence needs to be judged as sounding stupid? Couldn't that process put you and a lot of others in a boat of sounding stupid a lot? If I thought I did a lot of things that ended up being stupid (and I'm making a point here, not assuming you do this a lot), sure, I might end up thinking I was a pretty stupid and useless person. And what is the point in that?

I know you didn't label yourself a stupid person, but you did similar, in labeling a sentence you wrote as sounding stupid. How exactly does a stupid sentence sound? That sentence is no more stupid than any other sentence anyone else has written, but learned to write it better later.


From The 10 Forms of Twisted Thinking:


9. Labeling - Labeling is an extreme form of all-or-nothing thinking. Instead of saying "I made a mistake," you attach a negative label to yourself: "I'm a loser." You might also label yourself "a fool" or "a failure" or "a jerk." Labeling is quite irrational because you are not the same as what you do. Human beings exist, but "fools," "losers" and "jerks" do not. These labels are just useless abstractions that lead to anger, anxiety, frustration and low self-esteem.

You may also label others. When someone does something that rubs you the wrong way, you may tell yourself: "He's an S.O.B." Then you feel that the problem is with that person's "character" or "essence" instead of with their thinking or behavior. You see them as totally bad. This makes you feel hostile and hopeless about improving things and leaves very little room for constructive communication.


Also, you told yourself "any joe schmo could do it", and therefore, it doesn't count:


4. Discounting the positive - You reject positive experiences by insisting that they "don't count." If you do a good job, you may tell yourself that it wasn't good enough or that anyone could have done as well. Discounting the positives takes the joy out of life and makes you feel inadequate and unrewarded. (I've been guilty of this one a lot lately).


I think it's these types of thoughts that put me where I was. Believing that a lot of people thought I was stupid or unworthy or didn't like me, and there was no clear evidence of that. Believing that I was stupid and unworthy, different, or that I didn't fit in (and I still have issues with this on occasion). Believing that I said or did a lot of stupid things. Not liking myself, my achievements, or who I was. I also do what Tracy describes:



If I fear it, I want to conquer that fear, so I take baby steps until it happens. Sometimes that has led me to situations where I am dealing with overwhelming feelings for days. When the feelings settle and I have processed and understood to my liking, which helps me to conquer the fear, I move on to the next.

I think that part of my feeling that I didn't fit in was that I wasn't comfortable with my uniqueness. I am not going to do things like the next person. I am going to do them like me. I can fit in anywhere where I hold value to the team or group, and, I can create value and a role, if I don't have it. My unique skills that I have grown over time, and my attributes, can add to the whole. It also helped me tremendously to observe other people and how they acted and thought. I started to really understand that we are all a mix of unique qualities, thoughts, and skills, and that makes us all interesting and valuable, and I was one of those people.

I think I wanted to be like the green "unhealthy" circle, not the yellow "me", and the blue "you", that work together as "us". I wanted people to be "like" me, but a healthy person won't be. My bf and I, for instance, have a lot of things in common. We also have a lot of things we differ on. I think all my relationships except for my current one with my bf have been codependent. That made for a hard time accepting that separation.

Sorry Amanda. I guess I misunderstood. I'm glad you're going to work on this and I wish you the best.

Also, I have some activities that I do without my H. He joins me sometimes, but mostly it's just me. It is hard to jump in alone. I hope that you do get to do what you're interested in though. Good luck!!!!

Amanda -

I don't want to nitpick your post and how it was worded. It is clear that we are both interpreting things in each others posts erroneously. My focus of response was on your title and your question.. do others experience this peeling of layers. Likewise, I do believe that the self-dx did influence how I (and others, from what I've read) viewed 'more layers'. And, yes, perhaps the statement you quoted above was mis-interpreted since as you say there was no tone which we could apply to it.

What is hitting me now are two things, one a very standard quote (from whom I don't recall):

It's the journey not the destination that counts.

And also, something along the lines of : What does 'the end/ending look like'.

From what you said above about having yet something else to work on, I question if really we ever reach an 'end' ? But, perhaps here again this may be more interpretation and you are disappointed/overwhelmed or ____ ?? that you aren't in some sort of floating? mode (and again work comes to mind for me- that you have more 'work' to do)

While I do understand the difficulties around feeling comfortable in social situations, I wonder how much is focus and attitude and emphasis. What I am thinking of is a quote from a life coach "There are no problems, only opportunities"..

Reading what you wrote to BG makes a ton of sense. I think in one way you've uncovered your mask - work (home and employment wise) and structure and parameters are where you operate the most comfortably. In the social arena where it's much more free-fall and there are no pre-defined roles, they get made up as we go- one becomes the leader; one the comedian; one the advice columnist; etc etc.. it is more difficult to operate, you are whatever you make yourself out to be...

I read something awhile back about learning to enjoy life and it listed 8 things very basic things that we need to do do enjoy ourselves and mostly it related to breaking (our own ) molds. I know for me, this is very difficult to do, but I also know that my own fears and needs to hold it together are the exact things that keep me at a distance from others. I will try to find it in the next day or so.. they are simple, even too simple hence easy to overlook, but I did see how they are indeed what holds me back.

I would hope that, while you are disappointed in discovering that for you to have a better life you must overcome this new hurdle, you focus on what your are aiming to accomplish- enjoy life; feed yourself with things that make you feel good- whether it is being outdoors; going to plays or concerts; taking a class in something.

My T once told me that the best way I can expand my social life and enjoy myself is to get involved in activites I enjoy- I then have some parameters in which to operate and the focus isnt on me. And, I am finding just how correct she is. I am another one that has taken the baby steps, and yep it took some encouragement from friends. Instead of looking into all my fears, I focused on what is it I like, and I reverted back to that- I placed an ad for a tennis partner, got a number of responses yet only 1 person stuck thru while I postponed meeting due to my dads illness. It has now been 3 months and we play weekly; are getting to know each other (spend time talking it up) and are looking to play during the week also. I doubt I could have gone somewhere and sat with a group of ladies and found the same (type of ) person. I would have been second-guessing myself and wondering if I was good enough or said the right things. This has evolved over the 3 months to being fairly open and comfortable with each other. And I am learning things about myself- how I do fall into old scenarios and how I need to develop more in lighter arenas of conversation.

So, I really hope that instead of feeling overwhelmed and looking at another obstacle you can focus on the 'goal'- enjoying life; doing things you enjoy.

There is a board on the web called meet ups, and a handful of other similiar ones, where in people post activites that they enjoy and others then post under such.... the whole purpose is to find others in your area with the same interest and schedule to get together. The net is the means of coming together, it isn't the focus, the focus is in the doing in 3d. (Dont think I am explaining this well but its a message board for finding people of similiar interests). Ive seen things from single working moms looking for suppport to tennis; to hiking; to chess; to crafts.

Whatever avenue you pursue, I hope you focus on the positives and on your strengths and interests vs on what you think or feel or know is lacking.