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OK, bad question... but one members over at FtF struggle with a lot... and it would be helpful for us to understand this better.

We asked AJ Mahari the question 2 years ago for an article on our site. She explained her recovery here:
http://www.bpdfamily.com/tools/articles8.htm

I have said "perspective" things like (see below), but all of it seems a bit short of a good answer.

How would you answer the question for a family member or loved one?

Skippy

A low functioning BP goes into treatment often to stave off destructive behavior - cutting, suicide, etc. Some of these treatments are manditory... but law, or by employer, etc. The outcomes are generally measured as remission periods associated with avoidance of the destructive behavior that caused the hospitalization. No suicide attempts or self harm in 5 years would be considered a success. I've seen published rates for inpatients that about half make it to 5 years (if I remember correctly).

Usually when higher functioning or uBPD (traits only/subclinical) goes into treatment, it is just like us, voluntary and to deal with their own issues, as they see them - anger, resentment, PTSD, etc. If the therapist is treating anger - then that should be the measure of cure. People usually go into therapy to resolve their own duress - not to solve others frustration with them.

The treatments that have outcomes of better relationship dynamics - the question we are really asking - is typically couples therapy where the relationship dynamics are what is treated. Individual may have parallel therapies running concurrently.

I haven't read A.J.'s account on recovery, but I will offer my own thoughts.

With 256 different manifestations of BPD, there is no clear cut answer for how long it takes an individual to recover. Recovery is a process and each person has his/her own way of getting through. One would sell themselves short if they believed there was a specific time frame for working through any ailment. Duration of recovery can also be related to severity and ability to focus on recovery.

The question is asked by those directly working on recovery too. People in general would rather deal with known items rather than the unknown. But imagine how a person would feel if you told them, "your loved one will be cured/recovered in 6 months" and that 6 month period passes and the loved one is still having difficulties? I personally think a person would feel devastated. Or worse, ashamed. I'm not saying a person would actually feel that way, but it's a possible way to feel. Think of new parents, they subconsciously compare the progress of their newborn to other newborns and wonder if something is wrong since their kid can't read War and Peace by the time they're 12 months old [definite exaggeration].

Believe me, when my stepdaughter was first diagnosed with BPD, I had billions of questions. I went to the Nook (now FtF) and hoped someone would tell me the magic steps to get her through the pain and on to "recovered" status. No such luck. I mean, people shared stories of what their loved ones did or didn't do. But ultimately, it was up to my stepdaughter and how she chose to work recovery. I asked people here and they said the same thing I am telling you. There is no definitive answer for how long it takes to recover. There is also the aged question of can people actually recover from BPD? Whether you subscribe to recovery makes a difference in the scenario too.

I realize what I have shared does not give you the answer you seek. However, it is a truthful answer and one I struggled to accept when my loved one was managing through BPD.

Nik

I think it depends on what is meant by recovery.

When the question is being asked by someone about someone else with BPD, the answer might be never. The non may have a particular idea of recovery and wonder when the person with BPD will get there, how long. But that idea of recovery many not truly be what's healthy for that person with BPD.

If talking to a person with BPD, my answer is, recovery begins right away. Recovery is a process of improved mental health. It's a journey of personal growth. It's a journey that has no end... it continues for a lifetime. Recovery would, to me, be the point on that journey when the idea of BPD no longer fits the person. But, really, it's an abitrary marker. One small step on a continuing journey.

Once the person with BPD finds the right tools, improvement begins. But it can take a while to work through various issues and twisting thinking, and learn the skills, and such.

The Angry Heart offers a way to measure yourself, and claims that it takes several years of consistent effort and toleration of setbacks to reach the ultimate goal of recovery.

hey skipper,

speaking for me, and this will be a complete individual thing for anyone, i dont expect to ever completely recover. i expect to learn things till i die. (dont we all?)

how many so called "normals" are 100% healthy? at least until life sends em some tragedy, and suddenly they are in a counselors office and trying to commit self homicide. (lose a child, car wreck with a brain damaged spouse,kid in jail, kid murdered, lifes little things it sends each of us at some time)

would anyone NEVER need some help with something?

but back to speaking for me, life has too much to learn. sure as i think i have x down pat, along comes y.

i dont think anyone recovers 100% or becomes whatever "normal" means....life is the journey. when ya least expect it, it will flip ya.

does anyone live healthy every day of every year of every decade? does no one have some issue that bugs em?

so i dont think any time limit is even possible. besides, who has time to spend on themselves *only* constantly? theres work. spouses or SO. kids , maybe. a sick parent.

hope this helps. all we can do is our best, with the time we have, and learn when we make a mistake. ellen said it good. what does recovery mean to each of us.

""""People usually go into therapy to resolve their own duress - not to solve others frustration with them.""". i love that! can i have it on a t shirt?

no offense, but i dont read about others recovery. i am me, my issues wont be anothers, and honestly, i find most are lying to themselves anyways. you know..."heres my story, how did i do it? for 19.95 you can instantly download my magic cure and get a free set of steak knives?" type stuff.

There are millions of healthy people who will never get themselves into a situation where they will ever need therapy or have a serious mental health issue that warrants help. There are millions of people who will overcome bpd...

The one thing that does bug me is a person who is negative and disbelieving, (and that's the one thing right now, I am having problems overcoming).

Yes, you can recover and be considered healthy. All that takes is belief and the effort to overcome the obstacles it takes to get there. Healthy doesn't mean you will never have an issue.

I think it's pretty assuming that every person will experience some horrible tragedy and end up in a counselor's office lol. Obstacles are not tragedies, they are just obstacles one can cross and overcome.

This is just so "doom and gloom".... I just don't experience these types of thoughts in daily life, and I don't think it's considerate to post these thoughts to a new member....

Welcome to BPDR, Skip. Yes, you can reach your goals and be considered healthy.

Negativity isn't the way to recover....

Skip, I really wish there was a straightforward answer to your question, because it would make things so much easier for all of us! But unfortunately there's no set length of time it takes to recover from BPD. We're all different.

I've recovered from BPD traits myself, and my partner has mental health issues which may include BPD (the doctors can't decide). The best advice I can give any non is that you have to accept and work with the relationship as it is. You can't bring about or speed up your loved one's recovery - there may be things you can do to help, but the main impetus has to come from them. What you can do is learning coping skills and find ways to protect yourself, or if that's not enough, you can choose to leave (or cut off contact in the case of an unchosen relationship).

If you believe that your loved one can change and you want to give them a chance, I would recommend setting some sort of timescale, but I think that has to depend on you and how long you're willing to put up with things as they are - not on some concept of how long a person with BPD is "supposed" to take to recover.

I've read AJ's article too and I like the advice on what the early signs of progress may be, and signs that someone is or isn't committed to treatment - although nothing is black and white.

Just my two cents.

We all have our own perspectives on recovery. I dont' believe that just because you don't see things rosy and sweet that you are preaching "doom and gloom." I personally dont' believe I will be recovered either. I believe I can constantly learn and make my way through life. I think that's the practical way of looking at things. I do believe some people can be recovered. But I know myself and know that won't be happening for me for a long time. This is not a black-and-white thing. It's not like you take a pill and poof - you're recovered. Recovery is in the eye of the beholder - whatever each of us thinks of as "getting there." It's not fair of me to say that someone is wrong if they dont' believe they can recover. I should only speak for myself. I find it presumptous to speak for other people. So for myself, no, I don't believe I will recover. I commend people who think they can. More power to them. But we're all different and have different backgrounds. Again, this is not a black-and-white issue.

You just made about a half-dozen assumptions in your posting, but at this point, I figure I've gone over this stuff with you and it was not understood, so I don't see the point in doing so again. So be it.

I don't see any assumptions in Bordergirl's post. Looks like a perfectly reasonable opinion to me.

From the Rules of Engagement:



Aqua, I don't think it is fair or helpful to say you see someone making assumptions, but not be willing to discuss the matter with them. If you genuinely wanted to help, you would have to tell them what you see - otherwise there's no point. Helping each other get healthier (and getting healthier ourselves) is the whole point of this board. If you're not willing to do that, keep quiet.

I've never spoken up about this before, but I've reached the point where your rude behaviour towards others, and your twisting the tools in order to attack other members, is not something I want to keep quiet about. I don't think it's fair on anyone here.

echoes,

I started a cc to discuss your post.

I'm afraid I do see quite a few assumptions in BG's post and find them generally pretty negative and offensive. But even more offensive is that once again, even though they're both claiming great recovery progress (which I appreciate) BG finds it necessary to step in for her close pal Jody when she thinks Jody is under attack or when Jody tells her that in PMs before they come on the board together each day.

What were assumptions????

1) see things rosy and sweet ------ 2)that's the practical way of looking at things. (thus the other way is impractical) 3)This is not a black-and-white thing. (you have done Black and White ((( oh, baaaadddd))) thinking) 4) It's not like you take a pill and poof - you're recovered. (you were thinking this when you reacted to me and it's childish, right everyone???) 5. It's not fair of me to say that someone is wrong if they dont' believe they can recover. Assumes Aqua was saying Jody was wrong. 6. I should only speak for myself. I find it presumptous to speak for other people.Assumes Aqua was speaking for others without checking.

I am getting so sick of this surrogate trick where BG has to pick up the sword and come in to rescue or do battle for Jody. And it's always ONLY against the same one or two people. I'm sick of seeing it and I think it's not appropriate at all on the Board.

Look closely at the sequence here. Aqua posted a one sentence statement to Skip in response to his questions. About a book. No assumptions or judgments, just describing a book.

Next post, Jody comes in and among other things, refutes the idea she thinks Aqua posted in half a dozen different ways, each nastier than the former.

And finally, Aqua responds. Immediately followed by BG, not Jody. Let's not allow BG to turn this around folks. If Jody has a problem with Aqua's statement, Jody should come discuss it, not send her surrogate in. So if anybody "cut and ran" here, it was not Aqua, it was Jody.

IMHO, of course.

OFFICIAL SANCTION



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What those two fail to see, is that some of their thoughts are so vulgar that they are outside of what is considered anything 99.9% of people would WANT or EVER NEED to hear, and that's beyond rude to force them upon others. Why not share them with people who want to hear them? Yes, I want to hear that one day I will just be zooming along, and some tragedy will strike (like my H getting brain damage or my son being murdered) and then I will want to commit self-homicide. That is just so pleasant, I can't even believe it. I REALLY wanted to hear that, just like the rest of the natural world would. And yes, then she cuts out of the convo (which actually IS hit-and-run, she didn't even show the respect to explain why she wasn't going to be around for the convo), and BG has to jump in. Typical actions from those two. Honestly, if someone told me what jody just did, I would consider turning them into the police for observation.

Thanks guys - these are really helpful comments. Does anyone mind if I share these with others?

What are the most helpful things that your partners do?

Skippy

I have been with my H for over 35 years. I exhibited symptoms of BPD during all those years, but was just diagnosed about 3 years ago. The way my H supports me is by supporting me with my therapy. He has read books on the subject. He knows I have issues and tries not to take them personally. We always kiss and make up. We never discuss being "cured" or anything like that. Basically we take one day at a time and are happy when things are going well. We are in this together and we deal with it together. I do have some issues with him but we try to work them out. So I feel I get a lot of support from him.

Skip,

My partner sets boundaries with consequences. He gives me a lot of freedom to grow and explore. He is communicative and understanding, and caring. He rewards me when I do the right things. He's sets an example for me. (He could be more strict, but I think he wants Me to make the decision to do what I think is right when I know it is). He allows me to grow in my own way, while enforcing his own boundaries. He offers a safe environment for me to grow in, and that was the most important reason why I chose this relationship. He has few issues himself, so he doesn't stir up my own condition.

hope they helped, skip. you can use anything i say for anything you want, altho i dont know how much help i could be. just tried to be as honest as i could, speaking for myself only, since everyone is so different with this stuff.

take care of you, skipper. jody

OFFICIAL SANCTION



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Skip,

I'm glad you've found some helpful wisdom here - that's what BPDR strives for!

I now finally have some time to settle in and give some thoughts. Hope you don't mind / aren't already done with your gathering mission.

How long does it take? The philosophical answer is "it takes as long as it takes." The Tootsie Pop answer is 18 months to see solid sustainable results, IMO, for someone who is highly motivated and has a history of mostly in-acting, high-functioning behaviour overall. Those who are out-acting, in my experience, are less likely to be receptive to the influence of those who would be helpful in their recovery and are 'too busy' pushing those people away. The higher functioning the person, the more likely they are to be able to "fake it til they make it" because they've most likely had years of practice putting on the facade to hold it together at work, at home, etc.

As Nik pointed out, with the 256 shades of BPD, it's impossible to say that, like a cold, the gestational period is X, the contagious period is Y and the recovery period is Z. It is truly a unique experience but what it really boils down to, IMO, is a small handful of things:

- correct medication(s) in place to stabilize moods enough to allow the baseline from which to work through problems, issues and triggers

- dedication and desire to achieve a place of healthy, happy living (They say that people have to hit rock-bottom before they're ready to start climbing out of the hole. I think that's applicable to BPD because the fear of something new is often more terrifying than giving up the unhealthy ways.)

- solid support system to help through the rough patches without waffling on boundary communication and enforcement

- understandable, valuable and workable tools to help break the patterns someone with BPD has spent years or decades perfecting through repeated practice

As Ellen has already pointed out, I think it also depends on the definition of recovery. Some people have it in their minds that recovery is a sunny, scenic Norman Rockwell painting, a dewy meadow on a spring day, a basket of mewling kittens and becoming the Cleavers. I personally tend to think that such a definition of recovery is extremely unrealistic and while I have my own thoughts about why someone would set their recovery goals at such (IMO) unattainable levels, I'll move on to the more realistic examples of recovery.

During the first six months of hard, solid focus on healthy, happy living (my personal definition of recovery), the first glimpses of recovery might be that Sally didn't blow a gasket at the supermarket checker because he couldn't make proper change quickly enough. That may not seem like much but it IS the first step in separation of stuff, untwisting thinking, application of the Four Agreements and use of the Five Steps -- in its own small way.

To my way of thinking, recovery (aka healthy, happy living) is a connected string of these small steps along the way. The more instances of not-blowing-up, not-breaking-down, not-freaking-out, not-taking-things-personally, these are all leading up to an overall recovery-oriented lifestyle.

It takes a lifetime to learn how to be a consummate Borderline; the fact that tangible results can be seen in as few as six months is remarkable and the fact that automatic responses in the healthy, happy living realm can happen within two years is (to me) utterly astonishing!

Now, that doesn't mean that recovery is some Finish Line that gets crossed. There's no particular end point. Just as there was no tangible start point.

Since we know that the shrinks, in their infinite wisdom, have decreed that for someone to be diagnosed with BPD, they must meet at least 5 of the 9 diagnostic criteria, then it would stand to reason that once one no longer (on the whole, overall, generally) no longer meets at least 5 of the 9 diagnostic criteria, one could be considered "officially recovered."

We have, for years here at BPDR, pointed out that the core essentials of the diagnostic criteria are basic human traits. None of us really have a desire to be rejected. We can never always avoid all displays of anger. We may, due to circumstances, display stress and instability. These things are human. What makes them, essentially, borderline is the grouping and severity and frequency with which they manifest.

Now, that's not to say that somewhere along the path to recovery (healthy, happy living) we won't hit a bump in the road, fall and scrape our knees or just plain old get tired and need to take a rest (which, in BPD, looks an awful lot like a 3 y.o. tantrum!)! The yardstick of recovery, IMO, is found in the larger picture, not in isolated incidences.

Again, just as recovery is seen as a successive string of small successes, it can also be seen as a diminishing display of stumbles. These things are unique to the person, their circumstances, their support system, their willingness to work, their propensity for the tools they are shown, the phase of the moon - I'm kidding of course! - and a whole host of other factors.

Overall though, I do think it's possible to see the first repeatable small-scale successes within the first six months and that general "recovery" can be observed within about two years of repeated practice with the health-oriented tools.

On a more human scale (as in all of humanity), the growth and discovery process never ends. Or at least, I don't think it should. If it does, the person likely has problems other than just Borderline! LOL

Skip, the sort of question you pose gives the impression that people at FtF are sitting back and waiting for the person with BPD to recover while wondering how long the process will take. What difference does it make how long it takes for someone else to recover when we only have control over ourselves? It seems the better question for people to ask would be whether or not they are in a position to control another person's recovery.

Your question would be much the same as my wondering when my husband will ever become the man I want to be married to when what I should be doing is defining what I want in a marriage. If I decide that my husband is not the sort of person I want to be married to, then I need to let him go and find someone else who fits with what I want in a marriage. If I think there is still potential in the relationship, then I need to decide how much longer I am willing to wait while putting up with my own unhappiness when I am with him. If I dislike him for being who he is without defining what it is that I am not able to tolerate, it is not likely he will spontaneously change in ways I want him to change for my own benefit. I would need to be clear with him what behaviors I find intolerable and let him know that my staying in the marriage is contingent on his changing those behaviors. This is called setting boundaries, something we all need to do in our relationships with other people no matter how we label their mental functioning.

The important thing to keep in mind is that a person does not develop BPD overnight so it is very likely that a person already had BPD at the beginning of a relationship. If your own behavior has contributed to an increase in BPD symptoms in another person over the years, then take ownership for that and work on changing yourself. Speculation about other people's problems brings you no closer to solving your own.

Accept me as I am. Not take responsiblity for my feelings.

Skip, I'd be very happy for you to share my comments with others.

I'm thinking on your newest question and will get back to you!

The single most helpful thing my husband did for me was teach me boundaries. "If you can't act like an adult, you need to leave. You can come back when you can have a rational discussion." Things like that. Through repeated boundary communication and enforcement, I was able to learn (through words and deeds) that a fight didn't mean the end of everything, that there was still love before during and after the anger, that the disapproval was of the behaviour not of me as a person. Consistency was crucial. Still is, really.