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I teach pioneer survival skills and pioneer crafts to campers at a summer camp. Part of the "pioneer spirit" is being faced with challenges and finding ways to overcome them. I enjoy my job because I identify with the hardships the pioneers faced on their quest to survive. I have found that there is one aspect of my job that I can't stand, though. It is campers who do the whole "helpless" thing and whine for attention.

I actually had a seven-year-old camper this week who insisted she did not know how to tie her own shoes - that her parents and older sister did that for her. What kind of parent would tie a seven-year-old's shoes for her rather than to teach her how to tie her own shoes?! I teach children how to tie square knots in the process of making yarn dolls or corn husk dolls and most of them pick it up with some practice. One eight-year-old even stated that she knew how to tie a square knot already because it is how she ties her belt for karate. I am fully aware that some adults underestimate the capabilities of children and keep them dependent far longer than what is healthy for their development and yet it bothers me when the kids actually try to play the "helpless game" with me, thinking I am stupid enough to fall for it.

These "helpless" kids sit there while an adult gives directions to the group and the first thing that comes out of their mouth, before they even make any effort, is "I need help!" They tend to project their neediness in a loud whining way that is not something I want to respond to under any circumstances. If a child tries something and they are struggling with a particular part of the directions, I am fine with helping clarify or giving pointers, but I am not about to do the task for them! I actually had one girl scream at me and start to cry because I responded to her "I can't do this" with "if you say you can't, then I believe you can't." Apparently she thought I should respond to her "I can't do this" with "then I will do it for you."

We have what is called a "challenge by choice" so that it is not required that any camper challenge themselves beyond their abilities. If campers do not want to learn to tie a square knot to make a doll, then that is their choice. They can do whatever kind of knot they want, even if it does not hold tight and their dolls fall apart. I happen to know for a fact that every camper who has listened and followed directions, has been able to tie a square knot, though. The only ones who have trouble with the skill are those who decide they can't before they even try.

We also have what is called a "five-finger" contract* and one part of that is doing your best. I tell every group learning to make something for the first time that the first one is always "practice" and it may not come out the way they want it to. Once they learn a skill and have an opportunity for more practice, then they will get better at it so that they will be more likely to meet their own expectations. I probably have had more practice making corn husk dolls than most people so I expect they will come out well at this point while the ones the campers make tend to look a bit mutant at times, LOL. If I were to make the doll for the camper, the camper would not be learning the skill and there would be no opportunity for practice.

What I have discovered about myself this week is that I don't like needy whiners! LOL I remember in preschool kids would come up to me with their tears and snot everywhere wanting to be comforted while I didn't want anything to do with them until they could wipe their face and use their words. I find myself responding to whiners the same way. I want to distance myself from them rather than to listen to their pathetic whining. I know that they are not as needy as they want me to believe and it annoys me that they would act helpless in order to get adults to do something they are capable of doing for themselves. It feels like manipulation and I don't like to be manipulated.

Working at a summer camp is a unique experience, one which I enjoy even though it is exhausting. Since this is week 7 of camp and staff have been working for 9 weeks already, fatigue is setting in at this point in the summer. It was rainy last week and it is hot again this week so that the change in weather has everyone out of sorts. The final week of camp is coming up and there is that mixture of "I am glad it will be over soon" along with "I wish it were not ending already." I know that my exhaustion and mixed feelings about camp ending soon has me feeling less tolerant this week so I am careful not to let these feelings show in any outward manner. I just wanted to share my feelings here because I find this insight valuable as it parallels other areas of my life.

I have similar reactions to people here who seem "needy" or tend to "whine" for attention. I want to distance myself from them and I have negative feelings about their behavior. I think I have difficulty separating this sort of behavior from the person because my dislike for the behavior causes me to dislike the person in the same way I don't like campers who come across as "needy" or "whiners" in their plea for extra attention. I suppose this would be a "pet peeve" of mine because I know for a fact that some people are more bothered by other behaviors, although I am sure no one likes to deal with a whiner. I tend to work well with kids with emotional and behavioral problems while those kids drive other staff crazy so I know that we all have our own strengths and weaknesses when it comes to working with certain types of kids. I am working on liking the whiners even though their whining makes me cringe at the same time I am working on reshaping the behaviors, mainly by giving my attention to the campers who are making an effort.

Can anyone give me some pointers about how I can separate the behavior from the person so that I can feel more positive about these needy whiners? I have a book called Working with People You Can't Stand that I wanted to start reading for skill-building ideas but I doubt it covers such immature behaviors. With my needing to ship out requested books I am not keeping, my reading priorities are often centered around what I want to read before I put it in the mail as opposed to what I want to read because it would be the most beneficial to me at a given time. This is not a book I have listed in my inventory anywhere because I consider it a "keeper" and not one I want to sell or trade so it may be awhile before I have time to read it from cover to cover. I am guessing that people here have had to deal with people they can't stand and have found ways to make it work. I would appreciate any insight you all can offer me.

OFFICIAL SANCTION



This type of thinly-veiled reference to specific individuals within the BPDR community is unnecessary, inflammatory and unacceptable. Please look within, use your resources and tools and determine a better path of behaviour for yourself for future situations.

(Questions or concerns regarding this sanction should be addressed outside of this thread - via Conversation Corner or Private Message - with a member of the Leadership Team of your choosing.)

FWIW, I tend to feel similarly most of the time. I would agree that whining tends to be an attention-seeking manipulative device. I would also agree that however unattractive (and annoying) it is in small children, that ickiness is just magnified in an adult. (I've had my share of clients like this over the past few weeks and I'm taking a three-day weekend just to regroup!)

In terms of dealing with it effectively, I think it does make a difference whether the whiner is a child or an adult.

I'm not really the best advocate of how to handle children since I really don't care for them however I was a nanny for two years and never had any complaints (from the parents, heh.) Children, I believe, are testing the limits -- if they ask one more time, put a little more whine into it, maybe they can get the adult to give in. They're trying to find the true boundaries, not the ones they were told.

"Joey, if you do that again, I'll smack you." I've heard many adults (parents?!) say things like this to kids. The adults rarely smack the kid. Usually, in fact, the adult gives in (buys the candy, toy, whatever) just to make the kid stop whining.

When S (the 7 yr old) tried whining at a restaurant, I looked him square in the eye and said "If you whine one more time, we're leaving - it won't matter if we haven't gotten our food yet. Think before you open your mouth." His big brother, P (13 yrs old), was like "Nah, you wouldn't do that." I said "I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it. Do you want to test me?" and I reached for my purse and keys. They stopped whining and never again pulled that with me.

When it comes to adults, I tend to be similarly matter-of-fact. "I appreciate you want the system to do that. Unfortunately, as I've said, it's not able to do that. What I can offer you is this instead. What would you like to do now?" I shift it back to them. In some ways, I partially work the Five Steps for them -- "you can keep whining but it won't change anything, you can accept this alternative or you can figure out something else on your own; either way, what you want to happen isn't going to happen so there."

I think that whiny adults haven't learned their own boundaries yet so they keep testing the boundaries of others. I have found that the adults (which is my largest exposure group) are the ones that are easiest to deal with because there's some level of logic and rational thought there.

Lastly, I think that - for myself, and maybe other people who are bothered by the whining - I'm irritated to some degree that the whining works for them! If it didn't work - at least some of the time - they would have given it up long ago. Since they're still doing it, they've never really grown out of that childhood phase whereas I feel like I never had that childhood (or that phase, for that matter.) So it's kind of like "how dare they try to get away with that now when I was never allowed to do it!"

And then the tools kick in and I realize their whining isn't my issue. It's not my stuff. It's not under my control. It's not part of my story, as Ruiz says. That takes all the wind out of my self-righteous sails PDQ!

(Kids? They don't know any better and it's a perfect opportunity for me to have a life-long positive impact on someone's life -- teaching them the value of boundaries & consequences! "If you keep whining, this is what the consequence will be.")

If I can't talk about things related to BPDR here, then please just close the thread. I am no longer interested in exploring this topic since it appears it was wrong for me to bring it up in the first place.

I take no offense.
The fact that you said it "seemed" implies that it is your opinion. You didn't say anyone is needy or whiney, just that is how you interpret their behavior.

I find that my interpretations of peoples behavior is vey often skewed by my PDs.
Their behaviors are filtered through my messed up mind, what I see may not necessarily be reality.
A child is a reflecion of the scripting they have learned from their guardians. As we adults are a reflection of our experiences.

Be glad to discuss this topic more here or somewhere else

Hi Denim,

In case you are still reading...

I read your thread with interest because I was one of those kids who would have said "I need help!" It wasn't that I expected an adult to do everything for me. I was terrified of getting anything wrong because if I did, the chances were I would be punished or bullied for it. So I liked to have all the help and explanations I could get to reduce the chances of that happening.

Of course you wouldn't punish or bully the kids but if someone comes from a home or school environment where that happens, they may apply the same logic everywhere. Children have few ways of protecting themselves so they try to find other ways of taking control (or feeling like they're in control).

I also think children are like a blank canvas to some extent. Their personalities haven't fully developed yet. It's natural for children to try out different things, and to keep going with what works. If you do everything for the ones who whine, they'll keep on whining. But if you make it clear you're not going to do it for them, encourage them to have a try, reassure them that it's OK to make mistakes and so on, then that's a real chance to help them grow up into better-adjusted adults. Unfortunately the results aren't instant but rather than thinking of them as a nuisance, perhaps you could think of them as an opportunity! People who whine as adults probably do so because it worked for them (at least to some extent) as children.

I'm also wondering if your own childhood and upbringing has some bearing on the way you feel about people who whine? You were strongly encouraged not to do it and learned it didn't work for you, so perhaps that's why you have such a strong reaction to people who "get away with it"?

Whining IS a way of getting attention. In children it happens bc clearly it works at home. In adults it's also bc it works. As adults with BPD or whatever DX we all have dysfunctionality, we all have insecurities and maladaptive ways of getting our needs met. Those adults who whine can be treated in much the same way as the child who whines, but as with the child, perhaps you can get accross the message that it's not ok to do that with you, but you can't stop these antics working at home with Mum and Dad. In just the same way, when you encounter adult whiners, you can't stop it working for them with others.

I think it would help for you to be more empathic. We all have needs and it isn't our fault we've been taught or have figured out dysfunctional ways of getting those needs met. I well imagine Denim that you relate to having developed dysfunctional ways of getting your own needs met, so perhaps you can allow that understanding of yourself to extend to others by way of compassion. And perhaps also recognise that a part of your repulsion to these individuals may well arise from what Ash said, which is that it wasn't ok for YOU to do it so why does it work for others?

It's healthy to be repulsed when someone attempts to manipulate you. But if you can look at the words "I can't do it!" as equating with "I'm afraid to do it alone" or "I have no belief in myself" it might not seem so manipulative and be more apparent to you where the separation of stuff lies.

As far as the attention getting aspect, I think perhaps it's good to remember that it's not wrong to try to get attention, and people often do it and it doesn't go noticed. What's right or wrong (or, rather, bothersome or not, or healthy or not, or such) is the when and how.

And I like what Sarah said.

I think you make a good point, Sarah, in that the "I can't do it" kinds of whining are usually expressions of "I'm afraid" and I think the vast majority of whining does revolve around other things besides just blatant manipulation.

While there are people in the world who will use whining and wheedling and cajoling to manipulate others outright, I would guess that the vast majority of the time, it's kind of like with Borderline: they don't know how to best express what they're feeling. Somewhere along the way, they learned to whine and it's been working for them. They haven't yet learned how to simply come out and say "I'm afraid to try this, I'm afraid to fail" so instead they whine that they "can't do this, it won't work" (and it's amazing how a monosyllabic word can last fifteen seconds and hit three different octaves with some of the truly well trained Whiners!)

I also think Ellen makes a great point -- attention is not necessarily bad nor is wanting it. It's more about the manner in which we go about in our efforts to obtain it. Like at work, I want to be recognized, to get attention. I can either bust my butt & exceed my productivity goals to get certificates to effectively wallpaper my cubicle or I can be an obnoxious whiner trying to tell everyone how busy I'm working, how hard I work, how much work I do. Positive attention vs. negative attention.

The 'trick' is to recognize what it is and not feed the demands for negative attention. Best case, teach Whiners that they get nothing for Negative Attention Seeking Behaviour and show them that they get wonderful results when engaging in Positive Attention Seeking Behaviour. (It's this theory that brought the Absolutely Positive forum into being - we WANT people to showcase their achievements and positive steps and we WANT to reward them for their progress!)

Post-camp is nearly over! We finished cleaning yesterday and today is our staff banquet (on my birthday) so I have some time to revisit this thread before I head back to camp for the closing ceremonies this evening.



I don't know if you are still reading because I recall seeing that you were leaving again but I do think these are valid questions I want to address. If I ever tried the whining thing as a child, I am sure I was immediately corrected since my father did not like children and he certainly did not like whiners. I think he would have taken a belt to other people's kids at times if he could have gotten away with it because he often made comments to me about how children who behaved in certain ways needed to have those behaviors beat out of them! I have never felt like hitting anyone for whining but I definitely do not respond to them in a favorable manner. Additionally, I would be pretty disgusted if I saw someone else responding to a whiner in a positive manner that could potentially encourage the whiner to continue the inappropriate behavior.

I do understand having a fear of failure but I don't know if doing the "I need help" thing really solves that dilemma since not being able to do something in the first place would be considered a failure in my mind. My father always told me that if other people can do things then so could I and so I naturally expected that I needed to be successful at everything. If I don't understand a direction, I tend to look at what other people are doing rather than to use the "I can't do this" whining technique.



I know we all have needs but whining is not one of the basic needs so I am not sure how this fact ties in with the topic. Whining is the dysfunctional behavior that needs to stop and that won't happen with empathy. If I were using dysfunctional ways of getting my needs met, I would not want empathy, I would want to know how to be more appropriate. In situations where I am not sure how to act in the most appropriate ways, I tend to do nothing (as a sort of "shut down" mechanism), while sometimes even denying my own needs out of common courtesy to others, rather than imposing on others with obnoxious behavior. I do recall my former therapist stating that my withdrawing and wanting to be left alone was a non-verbal way of asking for "special treatment" because that was not normal behavior so I try to act in ways that are the least imposing on others. Perhaps that is why I so often want to be invisible.

Naturally I respond better to those using more appropriate ways of getting my attention and they tend to keep my attention longer. I would really rather use my words in an encouraging manner than to have to delve into exactly what "I can't do this" means for each individual! LOL The more annoying a person is, the more quickly I repeat the directions (sometimes slipping in a "if you had been listening you would have heard me say..." sort of reply to needing to repeat myself). I have also given other come-backs such as "I know you can but you will have to prove it to yourself" or "everyone I have worked with so far has been able to do this so I am sure you can too" sorts of remarks. Those same kids who start out saying "I can't" are the ones who are then saying "this is easy" so I often get to do a sort of "I told you so" thing, in a much more subtle way of course.

I guess something I need to keep in mind is that sometimes people like qualities in others that I can't stand. There is one staff member who yells at kids and makes them cry, which is not okay in my mind, and yet I actually had another staff member refer to this other staff member's yelling at kids as a good thing this past week. I personally have a hard time viewing yelling at kids in a positive manner and so this is something I personally would expect her to change about her own work ethics. It was quite strange, almost shocking, hearing someone stating qualities I consider negative in such positive terms but then I guess even Hitler had a large number of supporters for things I consider entirely unethical.

Did you gain any insights into this; for how you can better deal with people that you can't stand?

I'm trying to work on something similar myself at the moment. It's more the behaviour that I can't stand, but sometimes I do find it hard to separare the behaviour from the person, especially when the behaviour is pervasive and evident much of the time. I end up disliking the person and I find myself needing to remove myself from their presence. I can't change other people, but I would like to find ways to be able to still be around these people, to see their goodness and to let the stuff that bothers me slide.

If it's a matter of just being around someone in a social situation, for me, it helps giving myself permission not to interact with them and to stay away from them. And, I guess, along with that, knowing they have as much right to be there as me, and accepting their presense in that space.

I'll admit, when I recently saw the person I really don't like for the first time in a long time, I really didn't like him being there. But he did have a right to be there. I didn't let his presense get in the way of enjoying myself. On the other hand, I didn't go over and talk to my friend who was over sitting by him. (Thanfully, that friend came over to me a bit latter.)

just a tip about problem kids and their whininess:

think of the one kid/child/child-like person you know that you love 100% and think the world of and project that feeling on your problem kids/person. this works when i'm dealing with kids and adults i don't like.

i usually pretend they are my niece, who i love so much i consider her MY baby. this works all the time. it's amazing how you can trick your mind to do what you want.

i am good with kids and child-like adults. maybe it's b/c i'm a kid too. i know how to make them respect me, just by getting them to do a sort of double take. i'm not normal, so i guess they see that and think "who is this person?" boys are difficult to deal with though. it usually takes a little more time for me to figure them out. but once i do, i tend to get their attention. i can be strict though.

i used to volunteer as a leader in girl scouts about 5 years ago. until the parents requested i leave!!!! apparently i was being too brutely honest about their kids. i, too, have problems with some kids and can be sort of strict. otherwise, i love kids. the ones i can't stand are usually the prissy, "i can't get dirty", "i have everything" rich snots who get away with crap that i didn't have (so, i understand ash's comments). maybe with people like us, who have had hard childhoods, we get upset or jealous when we see spoiled kids.

but, just pretend you're talking to a kid/child you love dearly. they will sense the love, even if it's a monster kid, and react totally different. when i started doing this, it drastically changed my stress level when dealing with people i don't like.

The fortunate thing about working with kids is that they usually outgrow their immaturity! LOL I don't usually take issues with kids personally, it is how to respond to them when they are doing things I don't like that can be the challenge and fortunately my training in applied behavioral analysis comes in handy. It is my negative feelings about their behavior that troubles me because doing the whole "opposite to emotion" thing I learned in DBT is challenging for me. If I am feeling negative about a person or the way that person is behaving, I will still act in positive ways towards that person but it is in conflict with the way I am thinking and feeling about that person. I guess this has come up for me following recent discussions on the board about wanting to be "real" rather than doing the "pretend everything is okay" thing all the time. If I could change my thoughts and feelings to more closely match my observable behaviors, then I would be acting in ways that are more true to myself while also being respectful of the person.

My initial response to anything unpleasant is to avoid it so it is interesting that whenever I bring up topics about things that bother me the majority of the feedback I get is suggestions to further engage in avoidance tactics. Perhaps I am already doing the only thing that can be done in these sorts of situations and I just have to accept that there are no better alternatives. I may be wanting to fix a problem that has no solution. It seems to come down to this: if I don't like the way I feel around certain people, I need to do everything possible to avoid those people and to avoid situations where I may encounter similar types of people.

The main problem with avoidance is that I am not able to effectively isolate myself from reality to the degree necessary, particularly when it is so easy for people to invade my mental space, whether I have given them "permission" to be there or not. I also recognize that "owning my stuff" does not require others to do any changing for the better and so I end up taking on their "stuff" by being in close proximity to them as I sort though my responses to their behaviors. I suppose that if I were Christian enough, I could love my neighbors with a Godly love that would surpass my human emotions.

Maybe this is where Radical Acceptance can come into play? You realize there are people you can't change yet you must interact with them or be close to them (the supermarket, etc.). So by Radically Accepting that they are this way and you can't change them - might that help?

I think that it depends on the situation. There are times when avoidance works, and there's really no reason to deal with the person anyway. Other times for one reason or another avoidance isn't a good choice. Sometimes avoidance means giving too much up. Sometimes that particular friendship is worth the effort of trying to work things out.

Of course, it's not either or. Like, sometimes, we can't totally avoid someone, but we can limit our dealings with them.