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i now see how i miss-posted in another thread, as i had not separated my thoughts and my feelings. while they are connected, it is up to ME to separate them out and figure out reasons, responses, etc to each.

i have found this idea fascinating. and more "stuff" to conciously work on.

no wonder people didnt get what i meant. it was all too jumbled up. it didnt say what i meant. no wonder, eh? this thinking is hard to get! lol.

now to practice this, it is entirely new to me. i think the board worked on this awhile back, but i wasnt at that stage then and there are many newbies here who may not have heard of this either.

here is my plan. i need to HALT and then think deeply on defining "what am i thinking now?" . then i need to separate my feelings from that and list only what i FEEL. (check list at left in case i cant identify them clearly) make sure i see them as separate. then i can work on untwisting the thoughts. and identifying the feelings. and then 5 steps to choose a positive response or behavior.

that sounds complicated but actually, once i learn it pretty good i can do it--it just takes concious stopping and thinking and clearing up my own mind into parts i can deal with. this way things arent mixed up together and i have no idea what i feel or what i should do as a adult.

separation must be done....for each of these. i didnt see they should be separated or could be.

this is cool. thanks to the person who showed it to me so clearly! anyone else want to add a view or idea, please feel free or share how you have learned this already and any tips that helped you with it are welcomed.

One of the things that helped me separate thoughts and feelings...
Feelings can (usually) be described in one word.
Just about anything beyond that is a thought connected to the feeling.

I may have more than one feeling going on! I can be angry and frightened and excited all at the same time, but each feeling is a single word. It can actually help me to identify more than one feeling at a time (because the world isn't black & white).

I've found that learning to manage the feelings, learning how to identify, accept and cope with them, has been very important to my recovery. I was usually acting out on the feelings. The thoughts just kept me stuck there.

interesting, thanks minx. i find this whole concept new and a bit daunting. it makes sense tho...as thoughts can be....just that. thoughts. totally my own issue, and they can be anywhere from correct to 100% wrong. or in between, to see the gray.

feelings , on the other hand, just are but can be felt without acted upon. and yes, one can have several at once, which is where it gets even more confusing.

i find this takes a lot of insight and honesty with myself to do and change. but i find it very helpful to sort thru things, to help find a healthy response, and to just know what i am experiencing.

separating them seems to give me more --a easier--time on choosing behaviors and responsibility on what i can do vs just a knee jerk reaction.

i like the idea about the one word.....

make sense?

I think all of what you posted above is fantastic! Good work Jody!!

thanks H! but i have a long way to go on this.........

Hi Jody! I'm glad you're working on this and that you have a handle on it!

its all deep and takes so much work and insight and willingness to look inside.

im trying.

I may not have much control over the initial feeling. The feeling will come, and it simply IS.
I DO have the option to change the thought attached to it.
I can choose to hang onto that thought and stay stuck in the initial feeling.
OR
I can choose to change that thought by untwisting, working the agreements and using any other tools in my kit.
If I successfully challenge those unhealthy thoughts, I may be able to have a different feeling going forward.
Hmmm...example...

B tells me "That was a stupid thing to do".
Initial Feeling: Anger
Inital Thought: He thinks I'm stupid!

Old Thoughts: That ignorant S.O.B.! What the f*&% does he know! Just like my GD mom. Maybe I am just a stupid worthless piece of s#&t...
Old Reaction: Feel Angry and Ashamed and (usually) lash out

New Thoughts: That ignorant S.O.B.! Looks like we do things differently. He might think I'm stupid but doesn't make me stupid. Actually, he didn't say I WAS stupid, just that some action I took may not have been a good idea...
New Reaction: Ask for suggestions, smile and ignore, change the subject - but i DON'T have to stay angry and make a big fight.

yes, minx. i am seeing a lot now once i had the concept pointed out to me.

and it ties in with S of S, twisted thoughts and feelings vs moods.

damn stuff, lol.

i want to take your analogy a bit further, if i may.

example...that was a stupid thing to do!

old thought, he thinks i must be stupid to have done x. i was always told how stupid i am and this proves it. he saw it also.
feeling, anger. sadness.

example, that was a stupid thing to do!

now new thoughts and feelings,

i wonder why he has that view. i shall ask him why he saw it as stupid/ (assuming i didnt just walk in wet concrete or touch the paint by the "wet paint" sign to see how wet it is, lol). i should listen to his view. not own it, but hear it.

my thought, am i stupid? did doing one thing wrong make me a stupid person?
feelings..i feel dumb
thought..does doing something stupid make me a stupid person? how could it?
feeling, (this ones hard) curious (that took awhile! i kept using thoughts)

conclusion...behavior isnt who i am. it cant make me anything (ie, doing something dumb wont lower my IQ). if i mess up, i can learn from it and walk on. how others see me isnt or cant make me someone. only i can do. so i feel.......

embarrassed, willing
not owning anothers feelings or views. not taking anothers comment as who i am. --thought

behavior...smile and say i feel embarrassed i did that. i hope i wont do it again but i bet i will! (mixture of both)

thought, im human and messed up. i know inside im not dumber because of it nor a lesser person.
feeling, relief

if yall think this is easy---!!! come try it with me! it is hard as hell.

thanks minx! """"I may not have much control over the initial feeling. The feeling will come, and it simply IS.
I DO have the option to change the thought attached to it.
I can choose to hang onto that thought and stay stuck in the initial feeling.
OR
I can choose to change that thought by untwisting, working the agreements and using any other tools in my kit.
If I successfully challenge those unhealthy thoughts, I may be able to have a different feeling going forward.""""" EXACTLY. i hope to get faster with this as i practice it.

Gosh Jody - I can see how that is hard work. It takes a lot not to turn yourself into a victim. I struggle with that all the time. How much easier it is to say "yeah, I'm an idiot, I can never do anything right, etc. etc. etc.". Sit in the corner and sulk. But it sure takes a lot of introspection and hard work to untwist the thoughts and feelings. Sometimes I can do it, other times I just want to cave in and play victim. This exercise helped me - thank you for taking the time to post it! I am learning a lot from this!!!!

I just thought of something. I realized I do this a lot with my H. He says something that pisses me off. I get angry and turn the anger onto myself. I turn into victim and sit in the corner and sulk. So much easier than working the tools, figuring out what he said, what the reality is, etc. I flip-flopped a lot with this when I was on vacation. I gotta stay focused, though, and work on not owning what he said and also figuring out if there is any merit in his words. Sometimes there are. I have to take each situation separately. Again, thanks for working on this - it's helping me a lot!!!!

Hi Jody~

Good work! Feelings do become thoughts and thoughts do become actions. That is where using different skills and tools is so necessary for those of us who can become twisted up in our thoughts.

I know that you are going to Al Anon meetings, right? That, I believe, is a good place to unlearn any victim and/or martyr mentality issues. Is that a correct belief?

I also wanted you to know that I am not ignoring or avoiding you. I am not on here very much or often. I'm busy working on me and my stuff.

thanks BG. it is quite hard but i hope the more i practice the more i get better at it. its just so hard to see it all the time. i am gonna go back to my other thread and redo my first post...do it correctly so it says what i meant. oughta be good practice.

hey ((GH)) i never thought you were ignoring me. yes, i am in al anon and yes, its a excellent place to work on victim mentality. i gotta tell ya something funny tho. all along i have learned this concerning my parents and my H. however, its always a constant surprise that it happens with other people, and that i can use the skills with it. its like, i never got the idea others can do it also. i guess i figured they were the only 2 in the world and i have it down pat with my H but another, and i dont see it! now how funny is that? suddenly i figured out oh ! its with others also! ohhhhhhhhh.

lol. im not the brightest crayon in the box.

thanks guys. i hope it does help others. i hate for all this work to go to waste just on me. lol.

damn BG how often have i turned victim??? millions of times. im ashamed! and im sure i will again until this is burned into my head and heart.

i just can not tell ya how i know see what my old T wanted me to understand. she was one drill sgt with this stuff. being angry with another makes us a victim to them. ! i want to cap that--its so important!!!

i gotta tell ya, minx had the best view that is sooo helpful. feelings can be described as ONE word. i posted that other post and shit, i musta backspaced 100 times. telling myself one word, jody. its hard. this needs a ton of practice for me to get good at. if i can help you, BG, when you need it, just holler. for me, its very hard to do alone.

Good job - Looks like you're starting to connect the dots! Get enough dots connected, and you can finally start to really see the picture.

Yeah, this stuff is hard. This is one of those lessons we never got growing up. But trust me - there is a lot of power in this particular lesson. It's a really hard one, but this is where a lot of the healing can come, if we let it.

I used to think that crap just happened to me and people just didn't like me and they were just mean and that was a misunderstood dung heap - but those were my THOUGHTS. Just because I thought it did NOT make it true. And just because I felt something...I didn't have to stay with that feeling (I thought I did because of all the thoughts that reinforced it). As I began to learn how to separate the two, as I learned how to FEEL feel my feelings and manage my thoughts, I was able to free myself from a lot of the pain and guilt and conflict that had previously ruled my life.

Really cool stuff actually. I found I have more power than I ever believed possible.
I didn't know you were going to Al-Anon. There IS a lot of good stuff there, and it DOES apply to our everyday lives. My old pdoc told me that my 12-Step work was one of the best things I could do for my BPD, too. It took a while to make the connections...but take a peek at the end of that twelfth step "and practice these principles in ALL our affairs". Oh, yeah - that's important, and it works.

Keep this lightbulb lit, if you can. I'm glad it's cast some light and that you can see more clearly. This can be really powerful and it's worth the practice!!

this lightbulb will stay lit. the thing is sometimes i just forget my skills. it seems the "old" patterns are very strong and can take over in a instant. does this mean im not healed at all? no. does it mean i dont try daily? no. does it mean im quitting? NO. i do this every day, it is just sometimes i slip. we all slip.

i agree with ya, minx. this is a huge part of things for me. exciting, self power, wow. but another thing very hard to do and work on. the more i do it, im hoping the easier it gets. the more automatic, lets say.

no, growing up, peoples thoughts were their feelings and their behavior was their feelings. and others always caused it. so its been a revelation for me. this whole stuff. you have to understand, due to my moms brain damage, she couldnt control her feelings at all. course i didnt see it that way, i was a child. i didnt know about brain damage and stuff. neither did she, unfortunately. she lived thru her accident, and to drs, that was all needed.

i find it funny as hell that i am just beginning to apply it to everyone, tho. i guess i thought it was only 2 people in my life who it applied to and the world outside the window wasnt like that. HAHA. what a weird idea. now i see this applies to everyone. i would revert back to my old stuff with anyone else. wtf. strong patterns, strong stuff.

al anon is hugely helpful to reinforce the beliefs. for some reason, i compartmentalized it into "it only refers to the A". now im branching out, reaching out, and finally seeing it refers to ALL matters in our lifes and ourselves.

does this mean im now perfect? haha. hardly. does it mean i wont mess up? not even. it means i see it and im trying.

ty minx. you have been a huge help. and i hope you will continue to be. separating this thoughts and feelings is huge, just huge a thing to do.

Perfect situation. It happened an hour ago. I'm in the kitchen and my H comes downstairs with a bottle of water. He says "this is yours, you left it upstairs. When I do this you always get mad at me." So I said "why are you bringing up old stuff I did - do you want to get into a fight?" He says he's only telling me what I used to do because if he did it, I would get mad at him. I tried to make light of it and not get into a fight.

Then he comes to my desk and sees a container of hummus on my desk. He yells "what is this?" I said "what?" He says if he took the hummus upstairs and ate from the container, I'd be mad at him.

I didn't want to argue with him so I made light of it and told him I refused to get into an argument with him. If he wanted to be mad at me, that's his problem, but I won't fight with him. He stormed upstairs and banged the door shut.

I even tried to make light of it at one point when he was yelling at me. I said "so, I want a divorce - you tell the judge I took the hummus." Ah, he did not like that very much.

So I sat at my desk, not owning anything. In the past, I would have sulked and played victim, thinking what a horrible person I am. But I did not play into that this time. In a little while he came downstairs, hugged me and told me he loved me.

So I diffused the situation by not getting angry back at him and refusing to play his game. I admit, I might have done things in the past, but why bring it up? I hate when he does that. So I just did not get into it with him.

Believe me, it was not easy to do. It did not come naturally. I had to work at it. But it worked. Whew!