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Ok, I don't see it... but I'm going to take it seriously.

Can some people explain to me why they believe my recent interaction with Trinity in the political thread is arrogant?

I have checked, and I am actually Less arrogant than A lot of people. But if it's to unhealthy proportions, I would like to know why you believe so, if you do.

I had a conversation with a guy on Thursday and I said "I know I'm confident and I know that sometimes people can misinterpret that as arrogance."

Starting with a baseline definition of arrogance: "exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner "

I think it's the overbearing part that gets to most people. (When you do it, when I do it, when anyone does it.) It's kind of a reverse borderline thing in some ways. Instead of "I have no boundaries so I'll do or say whatever you think I should say to get you to like me" it's the other end of the spectrum of "I know without a doubt that this is the right opinion, approach or method so you absolutely need to do what I say."

What a lot of people miss, IMO, is when we say "I know without a doubt that this is the right opinion, approach or method for me and many other people but you can do whatever you choose." There's a certain level of built-in boundary/consequence to these types of interactions that a lot of people also misunderstand or misinterpret.

"I don't want to hang around with people who see things that other way so if you're not going to agree with me (as is your right), I'm going to distance myself from you." It's a boundary/consequence which some people can (understandably so, I think) see as an ultimatum or punishment. Like "you're only cool like me or worth a damn if you think like me" instead of "I get really bothered by your stance because it is diametrically opposed to everything I believe in so for the sake of harmony in both our lives, we need to keep apart."

It's not a personal thing, I don't think. It hasn't been for me and I haven't picked up on the personal level stuff from your posts either. It's not that you're saying "If you don't believe in my values, you're a worthless turd." But because of the overbearing nature, the very strong confidence with which you speak (as do I), these types of interactions can be seen by others as arrogant.

Dunno if that helps any. I know that as I was typing stuff to and for you, I was seeing how ironic other people would see those words coming from me so I also tried to simultaneously write toward those points as well so it may have gotten all jumbled up.

Yeah, I wanted to say that it seems typically BPD to come across that way, too. I think if you were actually acting in a way that was arrogant for yourself you perhaps may not have posted at all, not be entering discourse, or simply "lol"ing at people, not bothering to extrapolate your reasons.

I do the same thing of just saying what I think without too much care for how sensitive or socially correct it is, without actually lacking in empathy or believing I'm empirically correct at the time - it's more a sign that I feel kind of comfortable and think the other person(s) involved can handle my uncensored thoughts.

My

I haven't been around as long as others or know you that well but from what I have noticed from some of your posts, I think you are sometimes insensitive to others points of view, are sometimes smug and are often more interested in expressing your opinion than being understanding.




I am sorry if this offends but I always strive to be honest, sometimes brutally so, and you did ask for opinions.

Downonit - No, I'm not offended. I would rather have the truth than not. And you are right, Alot of times these days, I have been more interested in expressing my opinion than in being understanding, (but, I think everyone in the political thread is expressing their opinions, which is why I'm there and not elsewhere. I think that's what I need the most right now - I'm trying to form what I stand for and who I am, based on this new set of ideals.) And you're right, I may be a bit smug, I think with the position I am in right now, comes responsibility and a new perspective that I haven't had before, and I am not used to that. I'm (slowly) evening it out.... trying and really trying to do what's right every step of the way. But yes, I'm in weird and different territory... and I feel pretty darn good about it right now.

Aramoana - That may be part of it for me too. I feel comfie here lately.

Ash - Thanks for your help.... I think it may be the confidence and overbearingness you speak of... I was overbearing in presentation... I see that... I def am feeling different lately, and am getting some very good feedback from my bf.

I think where I stand is, "I disagree, but it's ok, and I accept you regardless". Disagreeing isn't something that separates me from another. I have friends I disagree with to that level, we just don't get into those types of discussions lol. In fact, I wouldn't dare ....

Ash, you seem to think that your form of communication and Aqua's are similar. At least that's what I got from your post. I disagree. You allow people to have their own opinions, even if they differ from yours. You are confident in what you believe, but you don't completely push aside other people's thoughts and beliefs. Aqua, I often see you doing that. Being confident about what you believe is one thing. Postulating that your way is THE way is not confidence. That was the point I was trying to make in the political thread.



That's an awesome realization. I hope you remember that in your dealings with others. It should help you to get your point across.

When one is expressing the thought/opinion, having resources to back up that opinion is important (as you, and others, have done). The biggest thing is for the communicator to know when enough is enough. Reaching the pinnacle of a discussion and then wrapping it up is vital for effective communication. Make a point, let it go, next topic. Continuing to cycle through the same words rearranged for re-emphasis can cause frustration and may make a person on the receiving end feel they are being devalued. A person may feel they are trying to talk to someone who is too full of themselves to allow the opinion of another to be heard or even expressed without rebuttal.

I don't think my way is THE way, regarding the things I was saying to you, or to anyone. And I see no evidence that i ever did that in the political thread... so I'm not getting where you are coming from. I was overbearing, sure. I am not the way and the life. LOLOL. I just enjoy debating and arguing, and that sometimes comes across too much on a site not set up for arguing and debating.... realized that. I can get on a roll and then before you know it, I've gone over the edge....and it honestly is as simple as that. It's like driving a ferrarri, you're going 50, and before you know it.... you're not going 50 anymore. lol. It's my responsibility to reel that in....

True. I agree. Most things I can find something, other things, it's probably not going to be that way. Alot of things I think are just that - things I've come up with from thinking. lol. Other things come from what I've seen happen.

Nik, you mean you don't want to hear my genius-like thoughts, completely free of resources to back them up? LOLOL.... (and that was meant as a potshot at myself)....



Thanks - I honestly think I've done this based on the fact that I think if I say one of them, maybe the other person will "get it". LOL. So I say the same thing in 4 different ways to get the same point across. I think it may have to do with the fact that at one time, when they didn't understand me, I felt victimized by that.....also, I think I might have a tendency to do this because of my mother - when I communicate with her, I have to say things sometimes in two or three different ways before she understands.

:^P

Thank you for sharing your feelings. I think it makes a difference in understanding people when they're able to share feelings in situations.

I can relate to having to say the same thing to someone in different ways in order to have them understand the statement. Can be frustrating for sure!

Yes, and I think it eventually developed into a pattern (I think something about me enjoys doing it).... it helps me to see where it's coming from so I can go about changing it.... I'm not so sure how successful I'm going to be until I treat the adhd. I am almost sure I have it. When I took off all the layers, what I was left with was this.... and i have almost every symptom. The borderline was a constant outlet for the adhd, I think, and kept it under control. If I have feelings of fear/shyness, and all these messed-up thoughts, that controls the outrageous behaviors. Take that away and I have this.... I think treated, I can still be me without being overbearing. Hoping so...

# onstantly distracted by thoughts or stimuli that interrupt actions or conversations
# Needing to change physical positions often, getting out of chair, moving; history of childhood hyperactivity
# Spacey or daydreaming, trouble concentrating
# Many thoughts and ideas, seemingly all at once
# Multi-tasking, often doing several things at once (such as TV, e-mail, talking on phone, reading)
# Focusing so avidly on an interest that everything else is forgotten
# Tactless, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time
# Missing social cues, behaving or speaking inappropriately
# Needing to write or doodle in order to pay attention in meetings
# Inability to concentrate or sustain focus on reading (not necessarily dyslexia)
# Poor short-term memory
# Chronic lateness, poor time judgment
# Inability to work within the rules of a corporate or bureaucratic structure
# Inability to work effectively without imposed structure
# Chronic clutter and disorganization
# Inability to prioritize
# Inability to get started on tasks such as bill-paying, laundry, mundane paperwork
# Procrastination
# Perfectionism
# Poor follow-through on completing projects, leaving "loose ends"
# Inappropriate anger responses, defensiveness, placing blame on self or others
# History of fractured relationships, misunderstandings
# Thinking in black / white terms; things or people seem either all good or all bad
# Often taking on more than can realistically be accomplished
# Thrill-seeking behavior, or enjoyment of risk
# Intolerance of boredom, changing jobs or hobbies often

Check on 7/8 of these...interesting that black/white thinking is shared with bpd. Now, if I can just concentrate enough to find a doctor... been looking but I always go running off to chase some rainbow elsewhere lol.

You said (in the STB thread) that you struggle when someone doesn't understand you, yet in the case of Trinity I think she understood you quite well. She just didn't agree with you. I think that's the biggest area you struggle with: when someone disagrees with you, or when you disagree with them.

I think you haven't been validated and listened to in your life. You've discovered somewhere along the way that you're an intelligent girl who can be quite articulate, and I think you use these skills to reinforce a sense of grandeur about yourself. However I think your arrogance shows insecurity and fear.

While you're so busy looking after your own needs, to be heard, to be validated and to be right, which ARE valid, you overlook others. You become selfish and hurt people or rub them the wrong way.

I think that people not "getting it" isn't nearly as big an aspect of the problem as you suggest. I think the problem lies more in you thinking people don't get it when sometimes they truly don't, but sometimes they just disagree.

So, given that, I think a good exercise for you would be to ask yourself what will happen if no-one understands? If no-one agrees, or even so much as listens. You open a thread and everyone who posts seems to have completely misunderstood every word you've written. Is your opinion of the same value if no-one "gets" it?

The results of not being heard, understood and validated as a child are a lot more damaging than to an adult, as adults choose their actions, but children often can't. So, now that you are an adult, how have things changed in that respect?

I just want to say as well that, in complete contrast to what I just wrote, I think it's very humble to open this thread and I commend you on your courage and strength in doing so.

I think, the way things are being presented, since you opened a thread for criticism on yourself and Trinity (as far as I noticed, didn't really look) did not, it could appear to someone/yourself that things are 'all your fault'. I just wanted to say that I definitely don't believe that is the case, and I hope you don't feel excessively guilty for the interaction.

Although your behaviour in the political thread was dysfunctional, I really thought Trinity's was just plain out of line, and shockingly so. She clearly reacted out of emotional distress, apparently not trying to take a breather or anything first, and said something that could have been said skilfully like a common forum troll. What was it?



I didn't see you making any personal attacks, and yet all of hers are, again and again. How the hell can she say something like "it must get lonely there" to someone on a BPD recovery board? Can she be so sure that isn't a statement that will haunt your psyche and give you fears and anxieties about yourself for weeks? I am just shocked. Is her lack of empathy somehow justified by her believing you lack it? Even arrogance is present in that she apparently believes she's so special she gets to be childish, when you apparently aren't allowed to be unsympathetic!

So, I hope you don't take the welcomed criticism to yourself out of context, and are managing to keep a balanced view of yourself.

Oh, it would irritate the heck out of me if I opened a thread and no one "got it". Some people just irritate me so badly I can't even stand to be around them anymore. My fears are only based on the incompetency I view in others. I see them as being incapable, and I fear that something they do is going to cause me a consequence that is beyond my control. For instance, there are only a few people that I view as capable and therefore I trust them moreso, not completely, but I believe they will hear and understand reason, whereas the rest, I don't have that type of belief in. And that's where my fear stems from... I've been able lately to take back some of my power, and I think it's because I proved to myself that I could change something with effort. And in doing so, I started to realize that, hey, some people Will listen and understand, and they do believe. And I think at that point, I started to see that the world wasn't that frightening, and all those people I feared because I viewed them as out-of-control, had no real power. I started to see moreso who did and who didn't have real power. So I think this has happened recently....

I think that slowly the need to be heard is dissipating. I lately have not felt the, "No one is going to understand, unless I shove it down their throats in 80 different ways, and then I'm not guaranteed," as often, and I think it's because I've been able to pinpoint some people who I do think understood. I'm starting to see that there are those who have "been there", that i don't feel like an alien walking through a strange land so much anymore... that I don't feel so misunderstood. And with that has come less of a need to be overbearing. I think I've been able to define the self so much more, and that has helped immensely. I think I am specifically overbearing when I pinpoint that the other person is not going to show any understanding or caring towards what I am saying. (That's a good realization). It's not necessarily disagreeing, but it's the coldness and heartlessness that I view in others, that tends to provoke an overbearing nature in me. I'm thinking I can overcome it with more time.

I think I was writing this as Aramoana was writing hers....

That's a huge problem for me, too. Lately I've put it down to the rationalisation stage of being abused: "mum doesn't hate me, she's just stupid/incapable/otherwise impaired." I'm still not sure if it was a logical rationalisation, but it's definitely a problem, since it gives me the back away slowly reaction to anyone I unfortunately come to view as 'lacking'. I work very hard on putting these black and whites into greys, but it doesn't help that some people really are more stable, intelligent and compassionate - they're making everyone else look bad!

Yea, I tend to gravitate towards those who "pull me in" with their warmth, and who are very capable and there's no doubt about that (and that's exactly because of this fear)!

I think our fears may stem from a similar circumstance. My father was an abusive alcoholic, and I watched him for 10 years do all sorts of senseless, irrational things, culminating in him losing a limb at the end. My mother also was out-of-control, trying to chase him around and "help him", but really making things worse. She was a scatterbrain. Then, I had my peers, who of course, were just kids. So I viewed THE WORLD as being out-of-control. The only people I liked were my teachers, but I feared getting into trouble with them, and that having dire consequences at home. And I think I retained this view of the world until I was a teenager. Up until recently, I didn't see the world as something I could alter. I saw it as a big zoo where you dodged people and their crap, where you got through the day with the least problems and dealings, but I wasn't heard that way. I didn't have any power. And I think I wanted it....

Aqua, I'm a little confused by your most recent post here and I'm hoping you will be willing to clarify. I applaud you for beginning this thread, having the courage to face something that may or may not be true for you. I'm not good at brevity--yet. :)
You write:

Does this imply to you that what you deem overbearance is really dis-trust? Maybe lack of trust in yourself?

What is your definition of 'real power' and how does it manifest itself for you? Is anyone that seems 'out-of-control' by your estimation going to be judged by you to be lacking in 'power' and therefore dismissed? Is it possible for you to see chaos as powerful and indeed helpful at times in itself?

I hear you say that you feel the need to be understood by others in order to control your actions. Is this how you meant the words to come accross?

I'm left wondering if you try to understand the other perspective. If you just deem it to be cold or try to see why you deem it to be cold and whether or not that was in fact the intention of the antagonist. I'm also curious to find out why this is a "x happens and I react y situation", rather than a "maybe I usually react y but I choose my actions and therefore I can react z" type of experience.

I wrote the above before you posted again. I have been trying to decide whether or not to submit it. I decided to go ahead and post because I think you want these types of things pointed out. The very nature of the thread suggests this to me. If not, just say the word and I will back off. I don't want to offend; I want to help. I'm not sure I am getting that across.

Now that I have read your most recent post I do feel like I at least understand some of the circumstances that led you to this stage. I can certainly identify with the need to control my external situation in order to feel balanced within. I'm curious to know if you think some of the 'symptoms' you posted earlier are a result of this power-stuggle, this need for the appearance of order, or if maybe there is some untwisting left to do? Please share your thoughts with me and help me understand more fully. Or don't, I suppose. I can't really expect a reply. I do hope that you think about these questions.

Aramoana, I'm not comfortable with the manner in which you attempted to convey a message to Aqua. It's generally considered inflammatory to bring up someone else's name unless that person is directly communicating with you about the topic. Taking side-swipe pot-shots about someone else's behaviour isn't really the most healthy way of coping. I will ask you to be more considerate in future attempts to convey concern over issues that may arise here. If you have something you'd like to discuss with Trinity about her behaviour, please discuss it directly with her rather than in a thread with someone else about her. We do try to focus on being impeccable with our words as one of the cornerstones of our recovery work.

I can see why that is a rule, and I wasn't sure about posting it either, but to help you and perhaps Trinity be more comfortable with my "integrity" and "true meanings" I'll explain how it happened.

First I was going to pm this to Aqua. But then I thought that was cowardly of me, since I knew I wasn't trying to be mean to Trinity, just validate Aqua's possible experiences. I quite felt for Aqua. I have also never been a fan of quietly bitching about other people in corners, it makes me feel dirty. Dilemma.

I considered at that point, since it was going to be public, if I wanted to address Trinity personally, and found that I didn't. I cared about Aqua knowing that someone else saw the behaviour, not whether or not Trinity did. I considered bringing up a more personal thread at a later point if I found I was still bothered by the behaviour personally.

I took care to balance a lack of 'pot shots' at Trinity with also explaining to Aqua the true feelings I did have when I read the posts, because I wanted to be honest with Aqua/the board fully not partially. I did not think that skirting around the issue of Trinity's behaviour would be a better idea, since it could be vague enough to be construed as a cowardly attack 'without any backup', instead of something I had obviously thought about and cared about. I tried honesty over eggshells.

In short, at the time of writing I did care more for Aqua's experience than Trinity's, and so my actions were so biased. They were effectively lacking in direct consideration for Trinity, not secretly harbouring malicious intent for Trinity.

I'm thinking about this more, Ara and Harm....I'll have a reply to you both within a day or so.

I have found a definition of personal power for Ara, one to describe what I was speaking of:

Power is a multi-faceted concept. You experience a sense of power when you feel in control of your life. Power is the ability to achieve goals. It is also the ability to influence others. Considerable power comes from the ability to communicate. Power includes enthusiasm and optimism. Your energy level is related to your power. If you can cause things - be the master of your destiny - you have power. Power is related to self-esteem and confidence. The freer you are, the more you tend to experience your power.

Above all, personal power is the ability to achieve what you want. More than anything else, it is personal power that brings you success and happiness.

The personal power definition was one that Harm asked for, not Ara. My bad.

Thank you for taking the time to post that, Aqua. Now you have given me something to chew on as well!

Thanks, Harm! I wasn't thinking I was giving you an all-knowing experience or anything, I was thinking I was letting you know that I appreciate your perspective and your questions (and I very much do...)... so no need to do things just for me....

I have been looking at this myself Aqua for a while. So Ithought I would share what I have discovered.

The big difference I can see between holding personal power and self esteem vs arrogance is this.

Self esteem says I know this is right for me. I have taken my own personal journey to get to where I am. I am happy that I am being true to myself. I actually like the definition you pulled up on personal power.

Arrogance to me says my way is the right way. There is no other way. Any other lifestyle, idea, opinion is inferior to that of my own. I am going to make you see my POV. After all it is the only "right" way to be ,do, act etc.. which is more like trying to hold power over another.

There in is the difference between offering a POV, an idea, a suggestion for someone to take on board because you have found it best for yourself and offering someone a course that says this is the only way and I am going to by hook or crook keep at you til you see that my way is the only way.

I've bolded some things that I find of particular interest here.

In those bolded statements it all refers to what one can do with power:
- influence others
- communicate
- cause things to happen
- bring you success and happiness

What I noticed tho is that most of those require interactions with others, even tho they start off speaking of personal power. So, yep what comes up for me is control.. something I look at a lot, as I feel most of what occurs in life is driven by individuals either looking to take control or afraid of others having control... combine the two and of course sparks will fly.

Influencing others is definitely an indication that you have control upon them.. if you can sway them into your line of thinking (influence them) I'd say that one could feel they have control. And I think of the times I've gotten someone to agree with me, and the feelings I get from such.. yep pretty damn good feelings.

Communicate- what better feeling is there than getting your point across and providing someone an ah-ha moment? That too shows some control over them/their mind.. nice ego boost, eh? I'm smart/strong/ enough to have enlightened them or shown them the error of their ways.

Cause thing to happen- (again influencing others or situations) again what a feeling.

Success and happiness- what better way to boost ones ego than to succeed at something ? and doesnt success bring happiness (most often) ?

I guess I am harping on these because the definition of personal power has a lot to do with 'influencing others'. And, I am questioning if that is really then personal power and where the line of controlling comes up? And isnt this what so many struggle with on daily terms?

If I sit passively by and not exert my personal power, yep I may be walked on but yep I avoid confrontation. Am I afraid of control; of being controlled? Of showing my weakness? my strengths?

If I exert my personal power and speak my truth... am I looking to control? do I need to be right? (refer back up to the above post for more on that- said well there) Or can I speak my truth and be satisfied that I am honoring who I am? Must I influence others? Can I tell if I was heard (ie did communication occur or did I just talk to a wall)? How is my self esteem? Is it hinged upon the results/outcome?

I guess therefore I would perhaps want to somewhat re-write the personal power clause. Perhaps only to be more clear in its definition. Atm I have no time to address it.. Perhaps it should be a separate thread as my intent is not to hijack this one.. but perhaps too it is tied directly to the main topic...

is arrogance tied to this definition and people's interpretations to personal power? Is personal power only when I can see/feel the influence I've had upon others.. then yep, perhaps that is why arrogance comes up?

I guess what I noticed too is how power is defined as 'personal' but the said definition doesnt talk of self but rather results being more outward.. perhaps this is what has me stopping and pausing and looking at it in pieces...

personal power may for me be more comfortably stated as "me" or "I" statements..
- holding to 'my' convictions
- following thru to the end
- not being influenced by others (tho at times I think this is necessary)
- treating myself (and others) respectfullly
- exhibiting behaviors that I would want others to exhibit towards myself
- taking care of my own needs
- knowing my priorities and following thru on them

this is just a rough list .. I am sure it needs refining...

again, not trying to waiver from the topic at hand, I actually feel they are very much related.