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There is an issue I am attempting to deal with unsuccessfully. I have talked to my therapist about this issue and she indicated that I need to look at the positives rather than to be freaked out about a particular thing I am doing. When I shared this issue with others, I got some feedback that indicated that other people were freaked out about the issue. So now I am wondering if my therapist is feeding me a crock of shit by telling me not to be so hard on myself. If what I am doing is freaky enough to freak out other people who are unaffected by it, doesn't it make sense that I should be freaked out by the same thing?

I can't help thinking that my therapist is telling me that the situation is okay because she does not know how to help me fix the problem. She indicated that I have "too much going on right now" to look at certain things. She told me not to be so hard on myself and yet if what I am doing is so bad that it would upset others, I should be merciless rather than being "okay" with it!

It stands to reason that if I am doing something wrong and I want it to stop, punishment is the most effective means of getting through as it has always been the most successful method for controlling my behavior. Punishment in itself is not a bad thing and I have learned ways to inflict pain without causing tissue damage so I should be doing what is effective. I don't understand why my therapist would discourage me from parenting myself this way unless she is afraid it will lead to negative consequences (mainly liability issues) for herself somehow.

The internal stress comes out through visible self-injury but the last two times I have talked to my therapist I have spoken to her over the phone so she has not seen me for awhile now (I only talk to her once a month so it has been several months since she has actually seen me). I am not doing anything that will have lasting scars as far as I can tell but I would rather do something different that I know will not leave any permanent marks on the body. It really is my choice what I do to accomplish the behavior modification I desire so I don't have to take my therapist's advice, even though I am paying her for it!

My therapist suggested that I use DBT skills (such as radical acceptance and distress tolerance) since they have helped me in the past. The skills help me cope with things I can't change rather than to change the things I can, though. I am more inclined to think that an appropriate punishment would be most effective in this situation but it takes someone else to administer the particular punishment and that can be an unsafe situation if I am not careful. At this point I don't know of anything else that would be an appropriate substitute.

I was trying to follow my therapist's advice but once I "confessed" the behavior to others, it became clear to me that her response to my behavior is the atypical one and therefore I should not trust her judgment on this particular issue. I guess I am having a hard time trusting her in general but I apparently trusted her enough to speak about the issue at all. I want to ask what others think I should do and yet I can't give more specifics about the situation so I don't know if this will even be helpful.

I think you are interpreting your T's response as acceptance yet not being shocked and not admonishing you does not mean she accepts what you are doing; nor think it is good.

Your T more than likely knows you will punish yourself and that you often find this the solution to many of your situations. From your various posts here, you seem to define everything in those very black and white terms- acceptance or punishment. There is grey and there is no reason (nor proof) that your T is not working within those greys.

Why do you hold the reaction of people in higher regard than your T's advice? Why is reaction more important to you than acceptance? Why is punishment more important? Were you relating the story for shock value (and finally got the reaction you wanted)? Are you indeed wanting to punish yourself and now you can justify it?

I would be rather appalled if my T fed into my negative feelings about who I am or what I do. In order for T's to assist us they have to walk the fine line of pushing at the right time while supporting, encouraging and accepting us? How would you be feeling right now if your T had reacted as these other people? Would it have been encouraging ? Would you feel as tho you could tell her anything? Would it have supported the relationship you have going with her?

Why not use HALT for both the incident and the punishment, as well as your reactions to both your T and these people? What 3 courses of action (vs 2 of punishment vs acceptance) are there? Aren't there more than these 2 for the different situations?

Punishment seems to be something you thrive on so how is punishment really effective in curbing you from anything? And why is punishment vs behavior modification an attractive solution?

Lastly, why are your friends opinions more valuable than your T's ? and, why isn't your T with her knowledge of you; your history; self harm and effective means of coping for people with PTSD, Abuse etc more valuable than your friends?

The way you've written your post indicates that you 'want' your friends to be right and your T to be wrong. Does this occur often where you doubt and deny your T's advice? What will it take to trust she has your interests at heart? When will that trust finally kick in?

Denim,

My read on what youare writing is that perhaps there is a grey between punishment and acceptance.

I really don't know what you mean about punishment, but it doesn't sound like truly constructive means to resolve behaviors. Limits, restriction, natural consequences are all in the game, but punishment confuses me?

And, with regard to acceptance - perhaps there is more you can do that just accept/ignore something.

Where's the grey, in your view?

Molly

Thank you for the replies. I appreciate the opportunity to see things from different perspectives. Perhaps I am seeing this in terms of black/white or good/bad so that it boils down to acceptance/punishment.



You have asked a lot of questions and I will try to answer them the best I can. I suppose that I subscribe to a democratic method of determining what is "right" because there will always be people who believe strongly in extremes and I want to find the middle ground in order to determine where "normal" lies. If my therapist is "outvoted" by the majority, I am less likely to trust that she is right.

I don't understand the second question asking me why reaction is more important than acceptance. Are you asking me why the reaction of "many, many" people is more important to me than my therapist's acceptance? As you stated, her lack of visible reaction may not have been acceptance and she could have been using her professional skills to hide what she was really thinking. I think that in this case, the tendency to react in an aversive manner is what I would then call "normal" as opposed to my therapist's accepting response.

I may have identified with Pippi Longstocking's means of parenting herself so that is what I have always done myself. My father used to tell me that the only way to get my attention was to smack me upside the head because I have a problem paying attention at times. I think it is the physical pain that helps me pay attention when words don't sink in deep enough. When I get "blank" or "become someone else" it is punishment that helps me do better. It is just the way I was raised so it is what works for me.

I was not relating the story for shock value. In comparison to other things I could have chosen to share, this was quite "mild" and not highly shocking. I don't usually share much personal stuff with others because I know they won't be able to handle something I have trouble handling myself when I am the one who lived through the experiences. Even highly trained therapists have cried when I tried sharing parts of my life story so I am careful about what I share with anyone. It is not important to me that others share my pain. I suppose this is why I have such a hard time believing in therapy and would rather not put myself or anyone else through this process.

I do have a tendency to punish myself when I feel it is deserved. Rather than using self-injury in a punishing way, I made a decision to give up control over what is an appropriate punishment because I have been told that I am "too hard" on myself. I also don't like leaving permanent marks, which happens with cutting (even though I trace over the same marks as much as possible and I avoid going deep enough to leave more noticeable scarring). I have found substitutes that work without leaving tissue damage so I try to use the least damaging means possible.



I think that initially I was "freaked out" and wanted to do something to make it stop. If my therapist had also "freaked out" when I told her, I would have believed that I am a freak and I would have wanted to stop freakish behavior rather than looking at the pros and cons. I would have held onto the shame and used that along with punishment in an effort to make it stop.

I don't like the fact that I do bad things because I want to be good. I don't want my therapist to encourage me to do bad things so if I am doing something bad I want her to tell me so I am not confused about good and bad. Sometimes people want me to do things that are bad because it is good for them and it gets hard to know what is good or bad for me.

I don't feel as though I can tell my therapist anything. I don't think there is anyone I can tell certain things except maybe Jesus because He knows and He forgives people, even when they do unforgivable things when they make bad choices. He is called the Great Counselor so there are things that He can help with that no therapist can handle.

The relationship I have with my therapist needs to be real. I need to trust that she will tell me if something is bad and help me figure out how to fix the problem. If she lies and tells me something is okay that is really not okay, then I can't trust her to help me. The most supportive quality I find in a therapist is honesty - dishonesty is not going to help me in any way.



I tend to go back and forth between being "freaked out" and "okay" with things so that is why I seek feedback from others. I don't know how I should feel about what I am doing so I try to figure out "normal" feelings from other people. I suppose if I were to need to come up with some sort of "middle" between acceptance and punishment, that would be disapproval without punishment. Maybe that is where my therapist is at, not voicing her disapproval so that it may seem like approval while also not wanting me to punish myself either. Is this what you are getting at with this suggestion?



I don't know that anyone can thrive on something that is true punishment. If applying a negative consequence does not deter behavior, it can not be called punishment in applied behavioral analysis because the term "punishment" would only be used when applying something that results in extinguishing a behavior. What is punishment for one person could be rewarding for another so an appropriate punishment has to be something that the person being punished will find punishing enough to change their behavior in order to avoid punishment in the future.

The main difference between punishment and behavior modification is that punishment is designed to extinguish a particular behavior while behavior modification is designed to target a desirable behavior. Punishment is more of a "stop that" message while behavior modification is more of a "do this" message, if that makes more sense. I am sure the terms may be confusing to anyone who has not studied applied behavioral analysis. Where behavioral modification works to extinguish an undesired behavior is when the targeted behaviors can not be done simultaneously. For example, someone is not able to walk and run down the hall at the same time (this is an example used in teaching) so if I want students to walk down the hall, I could use behavior modification techniques to achieve the desired walking behavior or I could punish anything that is not walking (such as running). In this case, punishment would not be the best choice to get the desired behavior because I would not only have to punish running but also skipping, crawling, rolling, etc. in an attempt to get students to walk down the hall. Sometimes punishment is used when a subject resists behavior modification techniques in order to extinguish a particular behavior that is interfering with the subject's ability to master the targeted behavior. There are times when "do this" does not work and a "stop that, do this" message is needed.



I am looking at my "friends" as a reflection of society as a whole while my therapist is just one person. If my therapist points me in the wrong direction, it could do more harm than good. I am more likely to listen to an individual when their thinking is in line with society rather than an individual who has their own ideas they want to impose on society. There are individuals with dangerous minds and I don't want to be exposed to their deviant thoughts. I have already had that experience so I tend to go with the majority on most things.

I think that there is an assumption that therapists have more training in the way a person's mind works and they look at a person in relation to life experiences to understand behavior. That is why therapists are in a position to help people who need help. I still have a tendency to think that if I can learn what therapists know, that I could use self-help tools without a need to pay my therapist for her service. It is much like paying to take a class or just buying the textbook to learn the subject matter independently. If I were not so overwhelmed by reading things that trigger me, I think I could be my own therapist. Unfortunately I don't seem to be able to have the more objective outlook that is necessary because I am not as removed from myself as I would need to be in order to be my own therapist.

I don't think my search for "right" and "wrong" leads me to look for verification of my own point of view but I suppose it is possible. In this case since I have both points of view at different times, I am essentially on both sides so that I don't think I have a personal preference one way or another. If I were to need to choose a preference, I think I would be more inclined to side with my therapist because I know that my own "freak out" response can lead to suicidal behavior that I seek to avoid.

If I wanted to doubt and deny my therapist's advice, I could very likely find a way to prove my therapist wrong about something since I could probably find a logical argument to disprove anything she says! LOL My mother really wanted me to be a lawyer because I tend to be effective at making arguments for or against anything. In debate, part of the research involved to support an argument is to research the opposing viewpoint as well. All good lawyers look at both sides of a case before presenting their own side. I tend to do this naturally because my research often leads to conflicting viewpoints which must then be synthesized into the truth.

You asked me what it takes to trust. For me, my ability to trust someone or believe something has to do with accepting the consequences if I later discover that they are not trustworthy or their "truth" was untrue. I have to be willing to accept the end result if the person is either wrong or dishonest. For example, for me to trust that there is a God, I know that there is a chance my prayers are unheard and that it is possible that there is no such thing as forgiveness or eternal life. I choose to believe in God and trust His character because it would do more harm to disbelieve in God if in fact He is real. I have already spent Godless years in my life so I already regret having denied His existence.

I can believe that my therapist has my best interests at heart because that is her job. It not only benefits me as her client but it benefits her as a professional to do her personal best. If her goal is to keep me in therapy longer so I continue to provide a paycheck for her, that is not going to happen because I won't allow it to happen. She is very aware that I am not stupid and I am not into playing mental games with anyone.

I don't know that I will ever be in a place where I can trust anyone completely. I have done "trust building" exercises with groups and when I do a "trust fall" in my mind I am going to be hitting the ground when I make the choice to lean back and allow myself to fall. I am usually surprised that I am caught before I make contact with the ground. If I am not willing to accept the consequences of broken trust, then I don't do things that would require me to act in a trusting manner.

This post is incredibly long with all the questions for me to answer. I think that some of the answers are helpful to me and at the same time it is rather time-consuming to type out such a long post when there are so many questions. Could I ask that people limit their questions to the most critical things needing an immediate answer and hold onto some of their questions for later if they still need to be asked? I don't have enough time to spend answering so many questions in order to get helpful feedback. My post is too long for me to read though in order to check my own words for clarification so please let me know if I was not clear enough in my answers and I can address those things in shorter posts.

Molly, thank you for your observations. I don't know if the explanation about punishment I gave in my above post answers your question or not. If you are still confused after reading what I have already typed in my last post, please ask me again and I will try to be clearer about the term punishment.

If it is appropriate for me to accept/ignore in this situation, that is what I will do. It actually seems to be what I am best at doing, which is unfortunately what has resulted in my being mentally ill in the first place! I tend to go with "it is what it is" unless I have a need to questions things further. I suppose it is my questioning mind that gets me into the most trouble.

It seems I am not looking at this in terms of grey and that could be why I am having a hard time at both extremes. I could use some assistance seeing the grey in this situation so any feedback that helps me with this would be greatly appreciated.

Perhaps you could respond to this part of my reply to smilininside:

Denim,

I think also that anything you want to prove, you can find the means to prove it. There is enough information to support anything you want to believe.

The one thing that hits me is that you are proving to yourself why you need to harm yourself. I think there are reasons not to that overcome any proof I might try to conjure up. For instance, that it isn't healthy.

Is your goal mental health? And if it is, is your therapist leading you towards mental health? I think those are the questions to ask to figure out whether you want to engage in the activities she has offered you.

I do think she is looking at my punishing myself as being harmful and not healthy. It probably does not give an appearance of mental health. The problem is that for me punishment is a sort of release from the bad feelings I have about doing bad things. I don't know how else to deal with the bad feelings. When I am punished, I feel the score is somehow settled because the pain is a way of releasing the bad feelings in addition to providing the necessary motivation to avoid making the same mistakes again (or if I do repeat the actions that resulted in punishment then I know that there will be even harsher consequences the next time which will further deter me from making the same mistake again).

I am not providing the above explanation as an argument, but I do want to point out that there are ways that being punished contributes to my mental health. I know that for many people saying "I'm sorry" is used as a means of avoiding punishment. I was taught that apologies are unacceptable and I have not been able to understand the point of view that indicates that they somehow make things better for everyone involved. In this situation where the person I am harming is myself, there wouldn't even be a way to apologize to myself for doing something bad when it does not hurt anyone else.

Perhaps I need some sort of punishment substitute that can do what being punished does without it being unhealthy. Maybe instead of physical punishment I need to look at using a token economy where I will lose privileges or something like that instead. I am not sure the "part" of me that is involved would respond to something like that, though, which is what makes it more challenging to address the behavior. Because this has been an ongoing behavior pattern for 20 years already and it has taken me this long to "catch" myself doing this again, the challenge is how to deal with it so I won't keep repeating the cycle.

I don't think acceptance is the answer to the problem and that is why I may be resistant to following my therapist's advice in this situation. For years now I have been told by mental health professionals that the way to get "better" is through acceptance. I just don't see how that would be helpful, though.

I have lost track of time and I need to be leaving already so I need to come back to this later when I have the time to give it more thought.

Isn't this then really the heart of the matter?

Why are you resistent to acceptance?

Are you afraid to find another sustitute for punishment? Given it is so closely tied to the abuse you have endured I would think you would be willing to find an alternative.

Denim -

I am sorry did not understand that my questions weren't asked to be answered here, but rather to get you to look at some of the statements you made. It seems however you took them literally, something I find I do myself at times.

There were a couple of themes I was hoping you would begin to identify.

------------------------

A couple of things stood out in your response to me:

You start out trying to explain why you were inclined to look beyond your T.. all state that basically it's not in your best interest to trust your T:




Later you come out with the below statements which imply you at least would 'like' to trust your T but seemingly dont want to.. or have yet to trust her:



Then later you say:



From my vantage point, it seems you are very conflicted about trusting your T and that she- perhaps no one- has your best interests at heart.

I am perplexed tho that at one point you say that T's are assumed to be more versed, then later go on to say, but I can't trust that....

Isn't that like me saying you are a teacher and I am not, but I won't trust that you are more versed than I in knowing how to present material and in knowing the material?

My point being.. yes, it does seem you'd rather go with the general person on the street than trust your T has a method to her behavior-

she didn't freak out because she knew you would and have the potential to do more harm...

she stayed calm and didnt react because that would not serve any purpose in her helping you thru whatever it was that occured and in helpinig you thru your feelings (being freaked)..


instead you seem to have gone looking for justification to be freaked out..

have yo followed any of your T's advice on what to do with the feelings and how you might handle a similiar situation in the future?

or is this not what is important to you atm?

Are you needing affirmation of your feelings more than assistance in what you did??

Sometimes it is necessary to take things in steps vs deal with them all at once. That too could have been your therapists goal.

Denim,

I can't speak for you or enter your mental space. I know that. But I will be able to say how much radical acceptance has changed my own life. I don't know exactly how you can apply it to end the cycle you are in, because I haven't come close enough to know the details of your situation.

I am just thinking, well, who's to say that you deserve to be punished in the way you are doing? Are you one to make determination of what you deserve? Do you see all of these other people in the world punishing themselves because they somehow believe they deserve it? Maybe you could consider Catholicism lol. The truth is, I think one day you could just say, hey, screw it, I don't deserve to be punished any more than the next guy who isn't being punished!

Denim, I am not able to get too philosophical here, but I had a thought. First, by punishing yourself, you are placing judgments on yourself. I don't know if you use DBT skills, but they say you should not judge your feelings, etc. So you may try reading up on DBT if you havent' already. Just a thought.

Second, I'm thinking that you use punishment where other people use morality as consequences. I don't know if I can word it the way I want, but it seems that many people have some sort of moral code - everyone's is different, of course. So they know when they do something wrong. The next logical step would be to vow not to do it again. They KNOW they've done wrong and they accept it. They realize what the consequences are. So that acceptance in itself is enough to make them stop. Can you just accept you "did something wrong" and say "I won't do this again?" Why do you need that extra step of self-punishment? Are you not strong enough to not do it again? Do you enjoy punishing yourself?

I'll try to give you an example. Two years ago when I had foot surgery, I was driving with my left foot. I knew it was the wrong thing to do, but I did it anyway. I was driving to my hairdresser's, and as I pulled into the parking spot I dissociated and drove right through their plate glass window. I KNEW I did something wrong. So I knew I could not drive anymore, until my foot was better. I did not need to take that extra step to punish myself. The consequence - being embarrassed, being scared, having to pay for the window - was punishment enough. I did not have to deliberately hurt myself to know what the consequences were.

I think there's almost a disconnect here. I also sense (and I could be wrong) that you enjoy punishing yourself. You must be getting something out of it or else you wouldn't do it. Maybe you need to explore that. You don't have to do it here, but maybe in private.

I agree with whoever said that your T didn't freak out because that's not what T's should do. Their job is to help us see how we can do things better. Self-punishment is not "happy, healthy living." I can't imagine what terrible things you supposedly have done to make you want to punish yourself. Plus, that's pretty arbitrary anyway. If it's all you know, then perhaps you can allow your T to teach you another way. A more healthy way to deal with disappointments and setbacks. You are not a dog who needs to be wacked with a newspaper. You are a human being who has faults, like every other human being. You dont' deserve what you're doing to yourself.

I was supposed to pick up my older daughter from school but my car won't start so she has to take the bus home instead (it takes 4 hours to get home when it takes me half an hour each way). I needed to run some other errands and now I am not able to do those either without my car running. I have been having trouble starting my car for awhile now but when there is an increase in my mental agitation, it interferes with electrical systems and causes things to malfunction.



According to what I have been told, acceptance is an important part of therapy and I will not get better until I can accept that I have a mental disorder. My therapist says we don't have to label the disorder, though, if it freaks me out too much. She does want me to work on acceptance of the "parts" thing and I am working on that.

I think I am at a disadvantage trying to work on my own stuff here when what I am working on is so different from what other people are working on. It is hard for me to explain this situation without saying too much but what I can say is that I don't know how else to control certain behaviors except through punishment. Nothing else seems to get through the way that pain does, in my experience. I suppose the resistance has to do with my wanting to see immediate results rather than long term progress.

What my therapist suggested I do is to have a "committee meeting" in order to address the time issue but this has to do with more than just time. I can see where the thoughts came from that what I am doing is intended to be helpful but at the same time it is not the way I would go about solving the problem. I can accept the good intentions and I can even accept the behavior to a point but doing this sort of thing makes me a freak and it has to stop! This is where the Pippi Longstocking thing comes into play. She would ask herself nicely but then if she did not behave she would spank herself. I don't listen to myself unless threats are imposed.

In the past, my father used discipline to keep me in line. Without the threat of punishment, my behavior tends to get out of control. I have seen it happen time and time again and yet I have not been able to figure out how to gain control. It has only been over past few years that I managed to find a way to use my father's methods of discipline to change undesirable behavior myself. What I am doing is not abusive so there is a difference. I don't want to be abused.



Actually, it was my response to feedback that I was given (that many people were freaked out) that led to my getting freaked out again. I did not go looking for justification, as far as I know, unless sharing too much information was a way of "looking for justification to be freaked out" and I did not recognize that is what I was doing.



Should I answer these questions or not? I usually take questions as a request for answers so now I am confused if the "questions weren't asked to be answered here" or if you were asking me questions and expecting answers.



There are times it helps to look at one piece at a time rather than trying to picture the puzzle before the pieces have been put together correctly. I do tend to overwhelm myself with the whole of something, which makes it difficult to look at the various parts.

I suppose I have been the one deciding that there is a valid reason I should be punished for something but then I have relied on another person to determine how severely I should be punished because it seems I tend to be too hard on myself. I don't know what other people do when they have done something wrong. I have to admit that the "confession" and "penance" part of Catholicism is appealing to me but I don't subscribe to all the various rituals that Catholics believe are important. I know that Satanic rituals are derived from Catholic rituals so I have sort of decided to stay clear of any religion that performs such rituals. I don't know that I would base whether or not I deserve punishment on what someone else is doing but then what other people do should not concern me anyway.

I just have to point out that it seems odd to me that you would use reason in this way, to say that what other people do does not concern you, yet you use democratic methods, which are dependent on what others think, in order to make decisions. It seems as if you are using reason any way you like to get what you want. Heck, if you are so convinced you need to punish yourself, and are unwilling to try anything else, then that's your decision. I don't understand why you posted. To try to get us to convince you to do something you are unwilling to do?

My therapist suggested I look at DBT skills but she did not mention non-judgmental stance as one she wanted to to look at specifically. I agree that I am placing judgment on myself but I am relatively certain that society as a whole would judge me the same way.



The behavior feels out of control and punishment seems to be the most effective way to gain control. Obviously if I had the belief that what I was doing was wrong, I would not be doing it. The fact that I am doing it indicates that on some level I am okay with the behavior, even though it is not okay. Those thoughts that don't listen to logic are connected to the flesh so that is the best way to get the message across. Because the behavior is being repeated, it is apparent that the message needs to be delivered even stronger this time in order to keep it from happening again. It is my acceptance that allows such things to happen when I should be strong enough to keep it from happening. I don't enjoy punishing myself and yet I don't enjoy the consequences of the behavior either. That is why I need to choose acceptance or punishment, unless there is something else I had not yet considered. The thoughts that what I am doing is okay do not agree that the behavior is not okay and therefore I won't get an agreement not to do it again unless it is not worth the consequences. Without punishment, I am more likely to decide that the actions are justified rather than to see the behavior as undesirable because I can see how the end justifies the means and that does not give me enough control over the situation.



I have checked this out in private and it is not something I should discuss in public. What I can say is that I do not enjoy being punished and that is exactly why it is effective. If I enjoyed it, then it would be a reward and not a punisher.



I don't know if there is another way that would be just as effective. The whole "committee" thing my therapist suggested is not something I have been able to use. She basically told me that I am already dealing with too much so I think she wants me to work on balance and not do anything to upset the balance right now. She said I should be "kind" to myself but then kindness is doing what is necessary even if it is unpleasant. I might yell at someone and throw them out of a second story window if the building was on fire to save their life. If I were to talk to them gently and try to convince them to jump, we might both die of smoke inhalation or get severely burned before getting to safety.

I guess sometimes I wonder if my therapist suggests things that are best for me or best for herself. She may be afraid that I will self-harm or even kill myself so she may not tell me what I need to hear for fear I won't be able to handle it. She does need to protect herself in case I were to do anything to myself that could cause liability issues for her. At this time I don't even have another appointment scheduled to discuss this with her so I am working on my own (I have been seeing her once a month so the soonest I would be seeing her is November 6th, although that day is not going to work for me so we will need to pick a different day in November).

If anyone has suggestions about what I could do that would not be punishing and yet would still convey a strong message in order to get this behavior under control, I would like to know what might work. The fact that I am seeking feedback is an indication that I am asking for help rather than just defending my personal beliefs. I think the last time I had to deal with this same sort of behavior I was seeing a spiritual counselor and I went through a process of repentance that was helpful.

I use others as a sounding board to determine what is right and wrong and for the purpose of reality testing. At the same time I am not morally responsible for the behavior of others so if they fail to correct their own mistakes that is not my concern. I posted to determine what others thought so I could compare their thoughts with my therapist's advice as a way to determine if my therapist was on track or if she was off base. What is interesting is that at first I thought that her advice was in contradiction to the way others would respond and now I am seeing that people are supporting her suggestions instead. This is helping me look at her advice as more logical than I had thought it to be at first. I don't think anyone has made any suggestions that I would be unwilling to do.

I'm hearing there's something you want to stop doing, punishment has been the most effective way for you to stop doing things in the past, and you don't know anything else that would work.

Since I have no idea what the problem is, I can't have any opinion on whether it's okay or wrong or harmful. If some people are freaked out by something, other people may have a different opinion. If you think it's wrong for yourself, that's probably a good enough to reason to stop, but I think it would be better to find a way other than punishment.

Does punishment really work in the long term? I'm talking about small things in my case, but for me it tends to work more like "I've paid the price for last time, so now I can do the 'crime' again".

Like you mentioned, disapproval without punishment is possible. The DBT meaning of acceptance and non-judgement is also compatible with wanting to change something, and can even be helpful with changing sometimes.

I was interested in the section on behavior modification. Is there something you could replace the problem behaviour with?

If physical messages get through better, maybe there's some kind of nonviolent physical action could be used somehow.

There's also classical conditioning as well as reward/punishment. I trained myself to get up in the morning by repeatedly setting the alarm a few minutes ahead, getting into bed, then actually getting up when it went off and running through the next few movements. The programming wore off after a few months and I need to do it again now, but it was very effective and I'm looking at how to use it for other things.

Again I can't suggest anything specific here, but maybe a starting idea or two.

Denim, I have been following all of your recent post and think I am ready to reply. You have stated in the past how much you like directness, so I'm not going to 'pretty my words up', but I'm not trying to be harsh or anything, okay?

I hear you talking about Applied Behavioural Analysis and punishment, yet I only hear you useing corporal punishment as a means to correct unwanted behaviour. I realize you have some 'part' of you that responds well to this, maybe because of your history. I don't think your getting the true concept of ABA. I feel as though your useing the part that you like as justification to harm yourself (which is what corporal punishment is, even if there are no marks) instead of learning healthier ways to cope. I understand that it may not be as simple as that, but it is not impossible to change this behavior even if it is 'working' for you. I put working in quotes because even if you are not making visable signs of your abuse to self, it is still abuse. Self-harm. Has it really stopped you from doing the behaviours or do you simply know you are in for 'more severe punishment'?

If you are unwilling to do the things your T suggests (because you think you can be your own T with enough reading maybe), and are unwilling to look into at least other ways of punishment, what do you want to gain? How do you expect to get healthy doing what you have always done?

You like to research, right? I recommend looking up Operant Conditioning (a form of ABA). There are ways to dicipline yourself without harming your body physically. Positive reinforcement can sometimes be more effective than negative, I don't know about that 'part' of you, but...Surely there is another 'part' of you that wants to be healthy more that the 'part' want to be disfuctional? In any of this thread I only hear you speaking of punishment and acceptance. What about replacing the behaviour with something you find enjoyable? Aren't there degrees of punishment that don't involve physical pain, like penance or chores or retribution? Why treat yourself so harshly when you have to love yourself? Who treats Demin kindly (and yes, kindness is sometimes cruel, but is this a situation where cruelty is REALLY called for?)?

Also, I deal with people disconnected from their physical selves all day long. Normal people, not those with mental illness, but many of the same tricks can help, I think, or at least not hurt. I really recommend you get to know your body better. It sounds to me from many of your post like you don't really feel comfortable in your own skin (common for all humans). Play with putting weight into different parts of your feet when you stand and see what that does to your back (like if you normally put weight into your heals, you might feel it in your low back--try putting weight into your inner arch and big toe, where do you feel that?). Can you tighten your biceps without tightening your triceps? Play with this, it will help you get to know you. When you can connect with your physical self intentionally, you can actively do it at will. Your brain has something to go back to in times of stress. Kinda like learning how to drive a stick shift 'just in case' you ever have to, your brain remembers how. Just a thought.

I'm just throwing ideas out there. You don't have to answer my questions, but I do hope you think about them.

I have a different view of "acceptance" than a lot of other people...

Acceptance does not mean that we find something "acceptable".
Acceptance doesn't mean that we like "it".
Acceptance doesn't mean that "it" is healthy or appropriate.

Acceptance just means that we see something for what it really is.
No judgment, no denial, no sugar-coating, no catastrophising.

Unless I can accept my situation for exactly what it is, I have no hope of changing it.
How can we ever hope to change something if we pretend that it isn't?

applause for minx post**

may i add we feel something for what it is. not just "see", but we know inside. my H is gonna drink until he dies, in less than 10 yrs. i must not only say i see it,. but feel it.

other than that, your very right.

Unless I can accept my situation for exactly what it is, I have no hope of changing it.
How can we ever hope to change something if we pretend that it isn't?

this is so 100% true. until we face ourselves, completely, we have no hope of healing. or accepting.

This really stood out to me in your whole post. I wonder how you really felt? How gut felt was that reaction. Cos that sounds pretty strong to me.

To me that kinda reaction does ask me to look at what I am reacting to, and perhaps trust my instincts as to whether this is good for me or not. What would I say if my children told me they wanted to do this? What would my gut reaction be then? I care about my children and it would appear for your posts Denim there is little doubt you do too. So what would it be like to care about yourself that way? You already said you dont punish your children this way.

You talk about societal norms, and yet there are so many of them and very diverse. You can not conform to all of them, you need to choose which you yourself are comfortable with. Sure you can get a generalisation from people you admire in someway etc... but people across society hold so many different moral and ethical codes, there is no wrong nor right! What is ok by you? In your gut? Perhaps thinking this action is something you might need punishing for could be one of your signals that says....I dont think I am happy with me doing this!

I will come back to this later because I am feeling triggered. I appreciate all the well thought out replies and I will get back to those. What has me triggered is that I can see that Jody has posted in this thread when I have repeatedly asked her to leave me alone. I am at a loss as to how to deal with this stalker behavior.

Jody, if you have something to share with me, you need to do it in CC because at this time that is the only place I am willing to read your words. I have you back on my "ignore" list since you chose not to respond to my attempt to communicate directly with you. This is a serious violation of my stated boundary that has a look of deliberateness to it that I can't even comprehend.

Could a moderator please split Jody's post from this thread so I can go through the rest of the replies and respond to the helpful posts? I would also appreciate it if someone on the leadership team could again explain to Jody the expectation to respect boundaries or I will be forced to take on the issue myself and I don't think that is what is best for the community.

A boundary is for yourself and not for the other person. "Leave me alone" is not a boundary. One possible boundary is "if you post to me, I won't respond".

You said "I will be forced to take on the issue myself and I don't think that is what is best for the community". This sounds like a threat to me. You're not forced to do anything, and if you choose to do something that's not good for the community, there may be consequences for it.

If you can't ignore one post and "go through the rest of the replies and respond to the helpful posts" even after taking some time out to think about it, then I'd say that's a pretty big problem on your part that you'd do well to be looking at.

A boundary is something about what you will or will not accept and the action you will personally take when those standards are not met or disregarded.

Commanding someone to take their stuff elsewhere is not a boundary.

Command: "Don't post to me, or if you have to, go do it in this one specific area or in the manner I dictate otherwise I won't be bothered with your crap."

Boundary: "I find it best if I only engage with you in this one specific area so if you choose to attempt communication with me in any other setting, I will ignore your words completely."

The difference is internal control over our own actions, not the demands of what actions another person should take.

The hardest part is then sticking to the boundary we create. (I know this from personal experience!) If we say "I will ignore your words in any other setting" we really need to be consistent in that consequence. Acknowledging that they exist, talking to the person even to tell them "I told you to not do that", is breaking your own stated boundary and shows inconsistency and doesn't help either party.

Denim, on a more personal level (aside from the generic outline of what boundaries/consequences are & how they work), what is the actual problem here? If you have someone on Ignore, fine. Do you really have to keep announcing it?

If your intention is to ignore someone, why would you go against your own goals and post to them?

She posted in your thread (I get that) but she didn't post to YOU, she posted to Minx. If you have her on ignore and you've said you are only willing to read her words in another forum, why are you even bothering to acknowledge that she posted?

You said that "you can see she posted here when you've asked repeatedly to be left alone." I get that. I don't like being pestered and hounded and followed any more than anyone else does. What I'm wondering though is "what's the big deal?"

If she previously stated a boundary that she wouldn't post in a thread you started but then was inconsistent and posted in this one, so what? What skin is it off your nose? Why is it such a big deal to you? It's her boundary, it's her inconsistency, it's her violation. It's not impacting your ability to earn a living. It's not impacting your computer's ability to open browser windows. It's not impacting your ability to read other posts from other people - except for as much power you willingly (consciously or unconsciously) give over to that unwanted post in the mix.

There's nothing for me to explain to Jody. Not really. Any boundary you stipulated would impact only yourself. Someone else's inconsistency isn't something worthy of admin intervention.

The only issue for you to take on, as I see it, is how you choose to handle unwanted posts and more attention to the boundaries you make. (Boundaries are different from commands.) The thing that I think would be best for you to challenge at this point is working harder at ignoring, turning a blind eye, letting it go, refusing to own it, staying focused on what's important to you.

Denim,

It's right in the way that others won't be able to bother you when you realize there is nothing they can do to bug you. When you find the power and uniqueness you have, when you find yourself, they won't be able to bother you any longer, because you will realize you have the power within and you have a lot to offer. You have a lot of strengths. For me, it has taken figuring out what I was, figuring out what strengths I had relative to what everybody else had (a teamwork kindof approach), and this is based on the fact that I haven't gotten there yet, but it is helping. And for you, I think you might be quite surprised in yourself when you decide to go there. (I think I remember ibf giving me the same lecture lol, except he was a bit older and better able to communicate it, in fact, a bit too good at communicating it .