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I've been doing a lot of thinking about perspective lately. How one person can view a situation one way, the other seeing the same thing can see things differently.

I think it's important for us to realize from which perspective our POV is originating. What factors are going into our thinking, and what factors we may not be seeing that may ultimately prove to be indeed relevant to our final opinion on the topic. This can apply to any given situation, I think. My perspective is usually key to understanding which is key to my feelings. To that end...

I like the study of human anatomy. I ran accross this dancer while looking up some things on left brain vs. right brain. I found that I see the dancer twirling clockwise--at first. When I tried, I could see the dancer twirling the other way at will. I was curious as to whether or not this 'test' could actually tell a person if they were more prone to one hemisphere-thinking or another, so I did some more digging.

I ran accross an article here that describes what I believe happens in an easy-to-understand way. It also shares:

So, I begin to think....

We can decide how we wish to view a situation. I get to choose my perspective, based on the available information. I can see the dancer spinning clockwise, or counter-clockwise at will. Likewise, during conflict, I can choose to see the other side, or at least try. I can cull information from trying to see where the other person is basing their thoughts. I'm not suggesting mind-reading; opinions should be based on obserable information, IMO. It challenges me to either support or deny my original feelings on the topic (argument). I have to decide for myself if what they are saying could be valid, and if so, why...all in a heartbeat. But it gives me more information. In seeing other perspectives than my original, I am able to form a more complete picture because I simply have more information with which to form my opinion (or feeling). I guess it only works if I am able to take a step back and really look......to HALT....to breathe...but I think it's important and I liked this visual. I know this isn't a 'new' revelation or anything, but I thought the visual was a nice companion to a topic on my mind. I also know it's not always easy to 'shift', to see the other perspectives. In the heat of the moment, when those emotions seize....I'm finding just by trying to 'shift' it can level the mood....and I sometimes 'see' a bit more of the view.

Then there's this bit...


To me, this re-enforces the idea to me that maybe a common theme in here is that things in life are really not usually one or the other. Not usually black or white. A combonation. The mixture of the two is where we are most effective. I mean, if even our brains can't abide in the either/or....why do I have to? Grey......

Natually, I'm drawing some conclusions from this that I'm sure the author did not intend. But these articles got me thinking.....

I'd love to hear other's thoughts on the topic.

sure we can and that is what we try to learn in therapy.

i would caution you tho...how you see something is your right. if i was to try to argue with you that you see something wrong and tell you why from my view, it could be invalidating to the other person.

we all see thru our own filters. our history, our personalities, our experiences. doesnt always make it wrong, or right. it just IS. that is reality. diff to each person. always. there is no ONE reality.

but because i see it x and you see it y, makes neither of us right or wrong.

I have major problems seeing gray. I only see black-and-white. I see things as good or bad. I have a very hard time gaining perspective. My T is trying to help me with this. I try so hard and I find it very difficult. It's not easy to change the way you've thought for so many years. I guess I need to start with small things and work my way up to bigger issues.

it is very tough to do.

black and white is safe,. gray is not. esp when it goes against our reality as we see it.

Jody, I agree that how a person sees something is their right. It is never my intent to invalidate anyone's view, or change anyone's mind about anything. All of this is just observations. All I am saying is that I can change MY view by looking at things from a different position in the conversation:
If I am fighting with my H, I am usually pretty 'set' in my belief. I find it hard to see why he wants whatever to go 'his' way. If I step back and view things through 'his' perspective--put myself in his shoes--I might decide that he is right about part of it, I might decide that my way was the right way all along. But I have more information to go on.
I used to live my life always thinking about what I wanted, how I felt....I just think it can be a good idea to empathize with the other side in order for me to form a more complete opinion. I'm also saying that our filters, our personalities, our history....can, IMO, be a factor in seeing what my perspective really is/ what my feeling really are. Say I know that I am likely to relate better to men in any given situation because of my past. I might decide to seek a male therapist, or conversly, I might decide to seek a female therapist to challenge me on this issue because I am aware of my perspective.

BG, I know your having trouble with the grey. I do too, sometimes. I would like very much a black and white world where everything was 'easier' to know, to catagorize. I'm learning hardly anything really fits into that. I like the idea of guaging things on a sliding scale (0-100%). I find many experiences to not be 'bad' or 'black' but maybe 65% bad, the rest good. Thinking about things in this way is helping me to see the middle. I agree that starting with the small and working your way to bigger is helpful!

Thank you both for your input

Ah, but B&W isn't "safe"!
It's that all or nothing that brings so much conflict and confusion into our lives. Very little in life is ever that clear, which leaves me holding a bunch of conflicting ideas and contradicting thoughts and rigid beliefs. How can I make B&W sense in a world where so much is "a little of both"?

Yes, that's how a lot of us 'round here learned how to see the world, but that doesn't make it right. Just because that's what we grew up into doesn't mean that it's healthy for us. It's the shades of grey that allow me to better understand people and situations. That's what gives me the freedom to think around and consider other sides to the story. That grey means that I'm no longer locked in to a single absolute answer that will be wrong half the time anyways.

(very interesting test there, Harmonium. I started out spinning clockwise and had no trouble switching back and forth. I have been told that my brain is "unusually balanced" - I use both hemispheres equally.)

very true H. in my counseling, we call it windows and learn to look thru diff windows for diff views of the same thing.

i found it very interesting to learn. prospective is a fascinating thing to study. its quite amazing, really. it has about 8 steps we do instantly in our brains to get our view.

i should have worded it as...black and white feels safe, where gray feels unsafe to some of us. i didnt mean it WAS safe. my bad.

Yes, black-and-white is safe. We are sure in our beliefs and nothing can change that. But it also makes things difficult when if we see black, and white occurs - what happens then? Our little constructed world comes crashing down. Not good. How do we start to change this world-view? How do we start to see the grays?

Minx wrote:

Well said! I'm really enjoying all this.....I'm glad you liked the dancer too.

Jody, it's funny to me how fast our brains process this stuff. I think that it can be an important step, for me at least, to challenge myself into the areas where I feel unsafe. I find much growth takes place from facing the fear of the unfamiliar, although that first step can be a doosie!

BG, that reason is why I no longer see B & W thinking to be 'safe'. My world would crash far too often, as things really aren't usually one or the other no matter how much I want them to be. I began to see the grays by my example above, seeing things as part-black or part-white (something my T taught me, but it is here in the untwist section). I think seeing the other perspective helps too. If you see white but they see black, finding the grey is the only workable solution where both sides win, IMHO.

I work this often now. My perspective, try and see what the other is and ya know if there isnt a whole complete other view of things often sat in a complete vagueness right inbetween. Compromise?

What feels safe isn't always safe, its what has become comfortable/ known. Often it has been a survival method, but away from it being essential to survival it isn't an in effective coping skill in day to day life. It's weird realising that the childhood full of control with extreme my way is the only thinking, don't question it and don't you dare think for yourself wasn't and isn't the only way at all. That the world / life is much more varied than that. There are many paths to the same destination often.

I see this as being a little different to beliefs and more about tolerance of others and give and take. It allows for some similarities aswell as differences...

random thoughts!
btw I have only ever been able to see that dancer go one way lol no matter what I try. (is there a way to see it, just knowing it doesnt work for me!)

Tracy, there is a whole discussion at the bottom of my second link with people trying to see the changes in the dancer. One of them submitted this link which may help you see the variation. For me, it's all in the legs.

For some reason I can't get the dancer to show up on my screen at all. All I get is a Perth news something with nothing but a white screen below the headline. I walked away from the computer, thinking it was just slow to load, but nothing ever appeared.

I tend to do well at seeing things from opposing perspectives. I have spent a lot of time watching people to find out what makes them the way they are and I can usually figure out what makes them "tick" relatively easily. I think I learned this skill as a child because I needed to know how to make people around me happy so I would not be hurt from my failure to meet their needs. Being in situations where I needed to be able to think like another person in order to anticipate his next move kept me alive.



There are times I might feel like I can read someone's mind because I tend to know what they are thinking, but my impressions are based on observable behaviors. There are people who will try to pretend to be someone they are not, usually as a ploy to try to get people to like them when they don't even like themselves, and I am usually able to pick up on the inconsistencies very quickly to know that their words are lies when they don't match their actions. When I see this sort of deception, I know that the person probably believes their own lies so they won't accept reality until they stop lying to themself. My foster mother's rapist / serial murderer boyfriend was probably one of the nicest people I have ever known but also one of the most dangerous people I have known because he was well aware of how easily he could convince people that he was a nice guy. He was such a compulsive liar that he would tell lies when the truth would have been just as good so I knew not to believe anything he said (he even lied when he said he would kill my father). He managed to kill quite a few women before the police finally caught up with him, with my foster mother's help.

Where conflict happens is when I challenge someone's viewpoint rather than seeming to believe their lies. As a child I never would have been brave enough to challenge someone else's thinking but as an adult I have realized that I don't have to be a people-pleaser all the time. I have had to learn how to not be used by other people and that often involves opposition, unless I can effectively remove myself from someone else's sphere of influence. My father is no longer a part of my life and that keeps me safe from him. Because he gave me life, he feels he owns me and can take that life away if I displease him in some way. I have been able to escape and stay safe from him for many years now so I am starting to see that he does not have the "power" and "authority" I once thought he had over me. Rather than coming after me, he "disowned" me and that gave me the freedom to live without fear for my family's safety.

I am sick with a fever right now so my mental space is a bit limited at this time. I can't go back to bed because I have a Girl Scout meeting in two hours and I am the leader so I have to be there. I am trying to take my mind off of being sick so I can be healthy enough to lead this meeting but I just realized that the pressure I feel in my head right now may be more than the sinus infection. I will need to find some other distraction for awhile and get back to this later when there is not so much pressure that my head feels like it will explode.

I think part of it is to be able to see another's perspective while hanging onto one's own.

If I think seeing your perspective means I have to agree with it and adopt it, then I'm probably going to cling to my own perspective rather than listen to yours.

Rather, the healthy thing, I think is to be able to hear your viewpoint and understand it without feeling any obligation to give up my own.

Once I hear your viewpoint, I may change my perspective, but I may not. And there's a lot of grey. I can modify my viewpoint, rather than discarding it and adopting yours. Or I may be able to blend the two viewpoints. It's not always keep my own or abandon it and adopt yours. In fact, I think it seldom is.

For me, generally, I'm more willing to hear someone else's perspective if they are also willing to hear mine. Particularly when the subject is me or something that's directly part of my particular life. (My particular life as opposed to, say, things like the economy that are a part of all or our lives.) But it is certainly possible to consider another person's viewpoint even if they aren't considering mine. And it's quite useful just for knowing how to respond to the person or how to approach them.

Denim-- I don't know why the dancer is not showing up on your computer. I have not heard the link is a problem for others, so maybe if you try it again or try the second link in my response to Tracy, you will get to see the optical illusion.

I'm sorry you are not feeling well. I know you have been under a lot of stress lately and urge you to take care of your physical well-being. For me, the physical really correspondes to the mental. When I don't feel well physically, my mental suffers too.

I, also, have felt like I can sometimes 'read' a person's mind based on observable behavior. But I have learned that I am in fact doing no such thing. What I think is in fact happening is that I am inferring or intuiting probable outcomes or solutions....I don't really know how the other party is thinking, the specific neuances that lead them to their reality. Visual cues and body language can be very telling...but it is not in fact reading minds, IMHO, there is always some assumptions going on, however minute. I agree that this ability to 'read' another can be a survival mechanism, but many are not put into such dire circumstances. At least, many I have met have not had to deal with the severe trauma of your experience, where their actual survival depended upon this ability. I suppose I am thinking that maybe less information, more of an observation, is needed for me. By your words I gather that to survive you needed to predict the other's needs and responses before maybe even they knew them. For me in my reality, I am not trying to predict anything, but rather to observe why another would feel a certain way in order to validate or invalidate or, more likely, reformulate my own thinking incorporating both their view and mine (each to some degree, none totally; grey) based on a way of looking at a situation I had not previously considered.

I also agree that conflict sometimes arises when I challenge someone else's view. I disagree that in order to do this effectively one must remove themselves entirely from the realm of influence. To me, I can be influenced by the oposing opinion without adoption of the ideals. In other words, I think it is entirely possible to stand your ground while being 'influenced' by someone with whom you are argueing. The degree would of course matter--if the arguement is over a life-or-death situation, that changes things. But to argue over politics, well, it helps me to formulate my view solidly when I have to see why someone is against my view and I have to find rational arguements in support of my view. I guess I'm saying that I can't just go with my gut, if I see the other perspective, I have to back up what I am saying with logic and I think that's a good thing.

Ellen--I completely agree that seeing the other side doesn't mean I have to give up my own view. To me, it just allows for a more complete view. I also think you make a good point about them being willing to see our view, but even if they are not, I still gain something by seeing theirs--even when I disagree with them. I don't have to tell them I am looking at things through their lens, after all....like you say, it just helps me judge how to respond.

I think that this aspect of BPD, the inability to see the grey, the inability to see another perspective, is why Nons see us as extremely self centred individuals. The BPD black and white stance is so focused on "Me" at the centre of it all. This perspective you talk about involves putting yourself in another persons' shoes. If you can't do that, then you may be an abused person who's merely acting out the expected dysfunctional behavioural pattern (the "me" perspective), but it's still selfish. This is exactly why people with BPD are reknowned for not being able to fulfill another person's needs. How can you fulfill another's needs when you only see your own black and white ones? That's why psychologists and psychiatrists all over the world warn people off those with personality disorders.

We can hold tight to those black and white perspectives, to be safe if you please, but remember that this renders you incapable of fulfilling another's needs while in that place, which means you can only engage in dysfunctional, unhealthy relationships.

And I also agree with Ellen that it's important to make sure your own perspective is retained, bc without that we render ourselves incapable of seeing, and therefore addressing, our own needs. Many times have I put only my needs first, and just as many have I put only another's first. Both ways are extremely dysfunctional and destructive.

So, like Minx said, there really is no safety in black and white, although dysfunctional, destructive relationships could appear safe to one who knows little else.

I'm confused Sarah. Are you saying that people with BPD are selfish? And I also don't understand when you say that you may be an abused person. I was never abused.

I do see many things in black-and-white, and it does impinge somewhat on my marriage. But I've been married for 37 years and I'd say my H thinks I fulfill his needs. He's never complained. My relationship is not dysfunctional - it has some problems, but I wouldn't say it's dysfunctional.

The first link still does not work on my computer but the second one does work. I just closed the boxes with the "suggestion lines" and watched the center one. It looks to me like she reverses direction back and forth but I don't know if she actually is or if my brain just thinks she is changing direction. I would try to "make" her change direction and sometimes it happened right away and other times it took longer so I am not sure if it was coincidence or if it was an illusion. With the other two boxes open there were times the center one matched one or the other so I think that the graphic itself could be changing in some subtle way that causes it to look like it is changing direction. It is easier for me to see how optical illusions work when they are still than when they are moving.

Have you ever looked at those pictures where you stare through the design and then there is a 3-D picture that suddenly pops out? The first time I saw a poster I did not see the image right away by following the directions but eventually I could get it to work. I have several books of these for my daughter and now I can see them with little effort at all because now I know how to unfocus my vision in a way that enables me to focus on the 3-D picture.

I tend to be pretty adaptable when it comes to "left brain versus right brain" perception just as I learn with a variety of learning modalities without a strong preference for any one. My older daughter has a learning disability, though, and my work with students in special education has made me more sensitive to the fact that our brains work in different ways so I don't expect others to think the same way I do. Apparently my "racing thoughts" can be labeled "psychotic" so I am careful not to mention such symptoms to mental health professionals. I think the reason I have a high IQ has to do with the fact that learning typically comes easy for me, unless I hit a mental block and allow frustration to keep me from even trying.

I remember being able to read before I was in kindergarten and then becoming frustrated with the way we were taught to read in first grade. Before I was taught to read, "t h e" was "the" but when I tried reading the word phonetically, I could not make any sense of the letter combination. Then all the "rules" we were supposed to memorize had me thinking that I would never be a good reader because I was not sure when to follow the rule and when to use the exception. Fortunately I taught myself to read using a "whole language approach" (which is now recognized as a better way of teaching reading) and did not rely on my teachers to teach me! Now I am a speed reader, LOL.



I can usually figure out why a person feels a particular way but I don't think I would be able to predict a person's feelings very well. Most strong feelings seem like an overreaction to something so in those situations I would not want to focus attention on the feelings but rather on the facts. I don't know what to do with another person's feelings so I usually let them deal with their feelings on their own, usually by giving them some time to pull themselves together. Thoughts are far less complicated to deal with, as long as a person has the ability to think rationally. I pretty much tend to look at one side and then the other side of an argument in order to find the truth somewhere in the middle.

I do have a situation in my Girl Scout troop where one mother is very "anal" and wanted to have everything organized and scheduled for the entire year prior to the start of the program year. Her daughter is anorexic and neurotic already, at nine years old, because she is so afraid to make mistakes and have her mother correct her all the time. It was hard to convince this girl that making mistakes is how we learn when she would become so distressed about doing something wrong. As it turns out, I won't have her in my troop this year because this particular mother wanted me to kick several other girls out of my troop (one with a compulsive disorder and another one who is a bully) and I refused. When she asked me for a calendar of every badge we would be working on for the year before we even met that year, I tried to explain the concept of "girl planning" to her and she never did get that the girls get to make choices about the things we do during the year, not just the leader and the parents. When we were selling cookies and I asked this mother to go pick up several cases of cookies we were running out of while her daughter was with me selling cookies, her daughter said that was the best site sale she had done (probably because her mother was not breathing down her neck the entire time telling her how she was screwing up). This year the mother informed me that her daughter did not want to do site sales and I can imagine why! I never voiced my concerns about her daughter to her because I can see that the mother is the reason the daughter has problems. I am disappointed that I won't be able to work with this girl but there is not much I can do with a mother who is such a control freak, although I can see that she thinks she is doing what is best for her daughter. What she does not realize is that I am far more concerned about her daughter than any of the girls she does not want in my troop because she thinks they have too many problems. I was able to consider this mother's viewpoints without adopting them myself and in this case the mother chose to leave the troop because I was not able to accommodate her desires when they do not go along with the fundamentals of Girl Scouting that I am required to promote as a leader.