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Ok So Im going to be very straightforward here (as if that is anything new)

I am pretty pissed at how a thread (by bg) that was directed at me has evolved. Having a post directed at me, specifically, and being 'nice' enough to provide answers; take the time; give some thought; be honest; talk of my relationships; and all I get back is a dissertation from the other person as to what happened in their life 20 years ago and a thanks.

There was no 'interaction'.. there was no answering questions that I had asked, yet I was kind enough, and took time to answer their questions. There was no 'conversation'.

Is it unnatural for me to feel used and abused? Is that not a setup by the other person? Have I not just been trod upon?

I cannot describe, properly, how I feel. But damn I can say that what transpired is very hurtful.

Thing is, I do love to exchange thoughts and ideas. I do love to investigate why I do what I do and how I interact. Mainly because yep I do have problems with it. And, this is a prime example of one of the problems. Ive had this happen with others, too. I feel set up/ used /discounted/ taken advantage of.

Im nothing to that person. The world is all about them. They didnt really want to know about me. They had a point to make and did so at my expense. They were not interested in learning or gaining anything frm my experiences. So why the hell ask? This has occured with others also. And damn it is hurtful.

Talk about not trusting others. Prime example as to why I do not and should not trust.

Harsh lesson when trust is so hard to come by in the first place.

And funny that someone who is so sensative (or so they proclaim, or is it just an act - a means of putting themselves in the limelight ?) can be so insensative about how they interact with others !

And funny that Ive yet to learn this lesson. Stay away from certain people. Especially those who dont really want to learn and grow; that just need something to talk about - no matter what; no matter why.

Often I see it; often I stay away.

Super angry at myself for falling into the 'trap' (with a capital T !)

Makes me sad over my own self.

It's not really contrary that someone who is sensitive as far as how they are treated would be insenstive as far as how to treat someone else.

And that's not a reference to any specific individual.

It's two different things. Just because it's the same word doesn't mean it's the same thing. Being personally sensitive and being sensitive to the feelings of others is two different things. And it's not uncommon that those who have trouble with awareness of other peoples feelings and perspective also tend to be more sensitive.

Again, not an observation on anyone in particular, and also, not something I learned here, but something I've learned elsewhere.

I know that only addresses part of what you are saying here.

smilin: I am not going to speak for BG because I don't know exactly what happened, but I think I have an inkling of the problem from my perspective regarding how I sometimes react to posts. It could even be that I have reacted the same way to yours.

In my case, sometimes I just get overwhelmed with a response, or maybe even frustrated. It's not going in the direction that I was hoping, and I don't know what to do. I can't just write a quick response. I'm thinking of your recent post to me in my thread on The Couch. My first thoughts were that it's irrelevant to my situation with my T, and why can't anyone understand what I'm going through? I couldn't deal with answering, though I should have.

But in many cases, the thread gets complicated, and some of us can't always understand the points being made. If we write about our life, and the responder writes about hers, and then the responder wants certain questions answered, I would say that the responder has expectations that may be too high. I think that it's in the hands of the poster to choose what to answer in a thread.

When I start a thread, I AM being selfish. I want to know if others can relate and help me with what I want to know. Sometimes the posts help and sometimes they don't. I don't think I am obligated to answer questions a poster may ask. If YOU (meaning anyone) start a thread and ask questions, then you can rightly expect them to be answered. So, I don't think it's selfish not to answer the questions.

I tried to follow the thread with BG that you are talking about. I also got confused a little. It seems that you were talking about MH issues but not BPD, and BG specifically wanted to know if you had told others about having BPD but she didn't specifically say that. It got a little unclear after that.

I may be wrong, but I do think part of the problem is with your expectations of others. You say this has happened with others. Your feelings of being used, taken advantage of, trod upon, discounted, etc. are, I believe twisted thinking. You can offer your thoughts, ideas, support to another person but that's all. You can't dictate how the person is going to respond. You need to be able to give freely without expectations of the person's response. Like, when I post about my T, knowing it's not too popular a topic, and the board is pretty empty these days anyway, I have to lower my expectations. It will be okay whether I get responses or not. I think it would be to your benefit to think that way about responses in threads.

It should be okay whether they listen to you, answer your questions, tell you how grateful they are, or whether they don't. It's not a reflection on you.

Another aspect. Just because someone doesn't answer the way you would like them to doesn't mean they haven't appreciated your input, and that it hasn't affected them. We don't know how our words affect another person, and they often don't know either. It may take time to figure it out, and much later they may say, "Smilin told me something like that months ago. NOW I get it!"

I've been rambling, not feeling so well, and not proofing this. Just thought it might help. There's more about trust. Smilin, it's not a question of trusting or not trusting anyone. I think it's all about expectations, but maybe someone else will write more eloquently about that than I can right now.

It sounds like the Expectation Bug has bitten you in the butt. I believe that any time we set expectations for other people's behaviour, we are setting ourselves up for failure. It seems as thought that's what happened here. You saw a thread addressed to you and that had you setting the expectation that the dialogue would go a certain way. It feels as though you've attached a lot of emotion to this interaction and it sounds as though this is a culmination of a lifetime of "being used" feelings coming into play. That it's more than just what someone specifically said or did in this particular instance. Rather, it's a larger life-issue for you.

I would suggest perhaps trying to take a half-step back and remove the specifics from this issue and look instead at the "being used" part overall.

What is it that gets you so wound up when you feel like you're being used?

In what past instances have you felt similarly (physically, emotionally)?

How far back do they go in your life?

Are there connections, common threads between them?

I think in this setting in particular, here at BPDR, it's important to remember that many if not most people we encounter here are dealing with mental health issues and/or personality disorders to some degree or another. One of the most common aspects of Borderline is the loss of boundaries. That means to someone with BPD, they are the world and the world is them - it all blurs together. There is no individuality, little respect or sometimes even recognition that other people are giving of themselves, that someone else is present beyond their own thoughts and issues at the moment.

While we don't need to allow ourselves to be mistreated, I think that recognition that "this is part & parcel of the disorder" can lead us to a form of Radical Acceptance which can, in turn, allow us to more fully engage in "not taking things personally."

Remember: any time anyone uses or attempts to use you, it is a reflection of them and their issues rather than a statement of your worth or value to the world.

Hi Smilin. I'm gonna be straightforward, too, okay?


Of course not, feelings are never 'wrong'. FEEL them. Then rationally decide if they were the emotion that serves you best--and decide how to proceed (healthily) from that point.

Maybe, maybe not. Have you talked to the other person enough to KNOW, or are you Assuming too? Are you reacting from your emotions, or are you logically thinking this through? For me, I can't decide something like this without first dealing with the heavy emotions. Otherwise, my emotions will lead me down a road I may not wish (in the long run) to travel.

Depends on your expectations and POV. Again, it would help me to logically look at the situation before deciding such. But, if I feel trod upon, mindfulness helps me to feel the emotion and allow it to pass without judgment.

Also--isn't it a good thing to be useful? Otherwise we are useless, right? IMO, it is only when we are abused, not used, that a problem arises.Someone said that--I didn't make it up, but I like it and can't remember where I heard it.


You feel hurt. Good. Not good that you feel that way, but good that it is one emotion you can identify and process. It's a start, Smilin. Go with that.

Maybe that wasn't BG's intention with the thread? I don't know, I have not spoken to her, but I choose not to assume either way. My point is--that was your intention. We can't project our own intentions onto others or decide they set us up because they they did not respond as we would have, can we?

Wow, you got all that from a lack of interaction? A dismissal of query? Might this line of thinking be a bit twisted? At the very least assuming?

Isn't it also possible that the points made were to provide background? Could it not be conceivable that they were learning and gaining from your sharing, even if they didn't say so the way you wished? Isn't it a further possibility that they were interested in learning and gaining, but could not because the thread did not live up to their own expectations? Many possibilities...why choose the one where you were 'wronged', especially with a lack of facts and with emotions high? Choices, choices.....

Live out of your imagination, not your history!!!! Choice... (and perspective)

So now, at the end of this venting post....you're sad and angry with yourself. How has any of this helped you, Smilin? Other's don't 'hurt' us in situations like this one, IMO, our reactions and expectations and thoughts and feelings do.

What can you do NOW that will Help you? That will re-frame, untwist, allow to feel (without judgment), or otherwise deal with the emotions that you are left with by this interaction and are now seemingly turning inward? How can you productively solve this dilemma?

I suppose my point in all this is whenever someone or something causes us to emotionally react, it is up to us to decide, logically and rationally, what is in our best interest for the long run, without that emotional charge clouding our judgment. It's called emotional maturity, I think, something all of us with BPD struggle with. Of course, that's just my opinion, but it's one that has been serving me well. I hope it helps you too.

Smilin, I did not intend to "set you up." I just asked some questions and wanted to know about your experiences with discussing your MH issues with your friends. I thought it was really nice that you had such a good relationship with your friends that you could discuss these things with them. I don't feel I "used you." I just asked some questions. I didn't know it would not be okay to share my experiences. If I didn't answer any of your questions, I apologize. I will go back and attempt to answer them. I have been laboring with a huge lack of sleep and have not been able to think very straight these past few days. I in no way would set anyone up or use someone here. I'm sorry you thought that way about me.

Regardless of who or the situation. It sounds like you are stateing a need.

It sounds like you are saying you need to feel like you are being talked to not at. If it feels like you are being talked at or not included in the conversation you feel invalidated, ignored, taken advatage of, and such.

Is that accurate or am I way off?

This is the best and closest to what seems to occur that I've heard yet. So thank you for stating what you have. It's a start for me to further understand myself. I have struggled for awhile (not today, but much longer) with what this is about. I think I would have to qualify this part:



to:

being talked at not to.... or not included.. when I have been specifically singled out and addressed.. asked an opinion, or a specific question I feel invalidated, and taken advantage of..

It isn't being ignored that bothers me. .it is the fact that there was no need to ask my opinion, or otherwise engage me specifically in conversation, if all one needs is to talk AT me (or anyone). I am not here for their entertainment; so that they can hear themself think their own thoughts.

The 'trap' is that I cannot determine this beforehand. I would be making assumptions to do so. And this, for me, is where trust- vs expectation comes in. Myself, I do not think it is an expectation to feel, when someone addresses me specifically, by name, that they are wanting to interact with me.

I did not expect the responses. I feel there is a lot of good stuff here from everyone. I appreciate each response.

I am having trouble comprehending the assumptions since I was specifically engaged. Likewise, the expectations for the same reason.

I think really I need to further pursue the invalidation and how that makes me interpret someone elses behavior as a reflection upon myself. I think this is where my thinking is twisted. Not sure how one would untwist that, however.

The above post may be a bit difficult to read.

Initially I had something to say to everyperson yet I felt the core of the subject would get lost if I did so. I therefore narrowed my response down to what I feel is the most critical.. what my feelings are trying to tell me : invalidated; taken advantage of.

I did gleam something from everyones post and do value it. I did notice that in a few places I had mixed reactions - cause I can see both sides of the coin- and in others I was a bit more argumentative in my thoughts.

I am struggling with the whole expectation issue but a few pointed it out, so I am trying to comprehend it.

I also don't see the assumptions of thinking a conversation was to ensue. since I was specifically singled out for the topic. Others have mentioned someones name without engaging them directly and still been able to discuss their thoughts around that persons ideas.

Being told I made a lot of assumptions; I read a lot of assumptions inthat same person says what 'may have been'.. so that sorta leaves me exactly where I am.

I think the post prior to this covers the most critical points for me. I need to find a way to dissociate myself from another persons actions when I am involved; even,or perhaps, especially, if they have 'drawn me in' (a term I have used previously to describe what I believe transpires. It's the closest I can describe as to when this comes up for me).

The only way I have to date been able to deal with this, is to avoid particular situations. Which really has not provided me any progress, but has allowed me more peace.

I cannot assume you are talking about me here. But in case you are, I want you to know that I did not engage you for my entertainment. That is not why I am here on the board. I asked a specific question. I had no idea it would be so distressing for you if I put in my own thoughts. I wasn't ignoring you - I started the discussion. I did not feel I was talking AT you.

I think I need to stay away from trying to engage you anymore. I felt pretty innocent in trying to ask a question. We obviously cannot communicate properly with each other.

I've been tossing this over. Is it really a matter of separation of stuff? If something is directed AT me- whether its engaging me in conver or someone calling me names...how is that not to be about ME ?

Likewise, if it is a matter of poor boundaries on the other persons part. How can I detach myself from this? Why am I so invested I suppose is the question? Which I dont understand. And Why would I not invest in an engagement with someone.. isnt that then superficial?

It's about you only insofar as that topic is you.

The reasons they brought it up belong to them, not you.

The perception they have of you or your words or actions belong to them, not you.

The outcome expected by calling you names or engaging you in conversation is their expectation, not yours.

I hope that helps.

Been absorbing what you wrote since yesterday. At first it went over my head. I do see what you are saying.

What it says to me is I should be much much more cautious and not take people at face value. Something I do have trouble with.

Think this one needs a lot of time to settle so I can find ways to change my perceptions and take better care of myself.

In a sense, it seems that what is being said in the above is that people all operate from a very selfish place. This is something I am coming to believe more and more. I guess mostly I dont like that it would give me a much more cynical outlook on life.

I also think it takes some deeper looks at my own reasons for interacting.

i dont think saying "people react from a selfish place" is accurate.

people act from their own self. their history. their way of speaking and hearing. which will not be ours.

seeing it as selfish is owning it. and we cant own anothers behavior choices.

putting the label selfish on it is from YOUR filters, history, and perspective. its putting your stuff on another.

no one CAN operate from anothers place. we wont ever understand it completely. we cant. we arent them. we cant put our labels on others and i have been guilty of that also.

How is asking a question being selfish? Why else are we here but to learn from one another? I reiterate - I did not have "ulterior motives." I just asked a question. Take it at face value - that is what it was. There is nothing to search for deep in my psyche when I asked that question. It was just a question. If we can't ask questions of one another, how else can we learn? How else can we share each other's experiences? It seems you're looking for something in me that doesn't exist. But that's your issue, not mine. You're reading too much into what I asked.

Really Smilin???? What should you do instead of taking people at face value???

It seems to me that you are still Reacting from a real or perceived slight. It doesn't seem by your post that you have really taken a step back yet-- allowed your rational side to think this through without the heavy emotions filtering your actions. Of course I could very well be wrong, I dunno.

All in this thread your initial inclination has been to find a way to avoid getting into this type of situation, rather than healthily Deal with your feelings once you find yourself IN a situation such as this that could only be avoided if one were to ASSUME or Fortune Tell things about another, even then I doubt all situations where one would feel this way could be avoided.

Not really a way of living out of one's imagination, is it?

On another note:

I think this is the best idea yet.


Please try to remember that avoidance of all things emotionally painful is not always the 'best' way to take care of ourselves. Sometimes it is just finding a new way to handle or process those painful emotions when they do arise.

Also, IMO, being used is not a bad thing. The opposite--being useless, IS. I like to be used, personally, to be useful. It is only when I get abused in some way, emotional or otherwise than I feel trod upon. (someone else said that, I don't remember who, but I like it).

I didnt ask nor do I want to understand it. It is too foreign to me and not a way I chose to operate. I chose to be considerate of others and what I ask of them. Sorry this point is very much overlooked here. I can accept that I am in a minority on this point and dont see a reason to further discuss such.

Yes, you are correct you put labels on people a lot.

Myself I labelled a behavior that doesnt sit well with me. I doubt that behavior ever will. Perhaps Ill learn to be more tolerant of it; perhaps Ill decide that I wont ever become nor chose to become more tolerant, but that I will handle my feelings about it differently.



Yep, Really. When there is enough of a devisive opinion on something I can chose to handle it in whichever way serves me best. There is nothing wrong with being cautious. Actually I believe it gets into what is called discernment. Learning to chose what is right for an individual.

Again, my goal here is to work with Queenofthefairies pointed out. That is what most closely sits with what I experience.

And what is this behavior? What doesn't sit well with you? That I asked you a question and thanked you? That I was respectful of you? What more did you want? I answered your questions. You seem to be expecting things that I have no comprehension about. You cannot control the way a post will go. I was not rude to you. I have no idea what you expected. We seem to be operating from two different planets. Well, I learned my lesson too, it seems.

Perhaps if I had known in advance what your rules of behavior were, I could have acted accordingly. But without those guidelines, I used my own judgment in how I posted to you - I reiterate - with respect and thankfulness.

BG -

Im done interacting with you. As a matter of fact, you said you were done with me quite awhile ago.

Will you please allow this thread to be about "ME" falling into the trap.

I'm sure you can continue to find plenty of places to discuss your feelings and reactions to what has occurred. Thank you

No problem. I'm done too.

Trying to process more about discernment here. As I think this is key for me. It won't stop me from falling into the trap on the first occassion with someone, and I'll have to learn to deal with that. But, it will save me a lot of time and effort in subsequent dealings.

So, taking the concept of separation of stuff:

- The reasons they brought it up are their own.

I can see where yep their reasons are their own. I dont believe I make a assumptions - at all. Yet, I do believe I need to start at least wondering what might their assumptions be. That may cause me to educate myself more before I respond. This is where taking someone at face value has been harmful. I don't assume and I get myself into the trap.

- The perceptions, of me, my words, are their own.

I did not see any perceptions being made. So, perhaps that is why I felt invalidated. Because the common denominator in these traps is that I get selected out; directly spoken to.

- The outcome expected is their expectation.

Yep, it very much has been.

My only expectation was that, since I was engaged, a conversation would ensue.

Since, in these situations, this seems to be my fallacy, I have gone off to pursue where my thinking is twisted.

This is what I have discovered so far:

Engaged:

1: to offer (as one's word) as security for a debt or cause
2 a: obsolete : to entangle or entrap in or as if in a snare or bog b: to attract and hold by influence or power c: to interlock with : mesh ; also : to cause (mechanical parts) to mesh <engage the clutch>
3: to bind (as oneself) to do something ; especially : to bind by a pledge to marry
4 a: to provide occupation for : involve <engage him in a new project> b: to arrange to obtain the use or services of : hire <engage a lawyer>
5 a: to hold the attention of : engross <her work engages her completely> b: to induce to participate <engaged the shy boy in conversation>

Conversation:
oral exchange of sentiments, observations, opinions, or ideas

Exchanage:
1: the act of giving or taking one thing in return for another : trade <an exchange of prisoners>
2 a: the act or process of substituting one thing for another b: reciprocal giving and receiving 3: something offered, given, or received in an exchange

Reciprocal:

1 a: inversely related : opposite b: of, constituting, or resulting from paired crosses in which the kind that supplies the male parent of the first cross supplies the female parent of the second cross and vice versa
2: shared, felt, or shown by both sides3: serving to reciprocate : consisting of or functioning as a return in kind <the reciprocal devastation of nuclear war>
4 a: mutually corresponding <agreed to extend reciprocal privileges to each other's citizens> b: marked by or based on reciprocity <reciprocal trade agreements

Mutual:

1 a: directed by each toward the other or the others <mutual affection> b: having the same feelings one for the other <they had long been mutual enemies> c: shared in common <enjoying their mutual hobby> d: joint
2: characterized by intimacy

I'll be returning to follow up on how my feelings of invalidation apply.

I'm thinking perhaps the problem is an assumption that the other person, like you, wants to engage in dialog. In some cases, they are just trying to gather information.

I agree with Ellen. Not everyone wants a dialog. BG was just asking you a question. I can understand your being disappointed or frustrated, but is it helpful for you to think of it as "falling into a trap?" No one is deliberately trying to "trap" you. No one is trying to mislead you either. It's not deliberate on anyone's part. I think it's YOUR needs and expectations that cause you to believe, erroneously, that you are falling into a trap. I do hope you can come to terms with this issue, smilin. It's hard to work on ourselves, especially when others see something in our way of thinking that we don't see. Good luck!

Ellen/Wondering -

I have a different take on 'gathering information' also. I wont go into it, because a ) it is already obvious that few if any can understand what is at core here for me b) I dont need someone continuing to throw down my throat how BG did no harm. I've been off the BG kick for quite a while yet BG, Wondering and I dont know who else, continues to want to make this personal.

What is personal for me is that this occurs again- hence a trap - as I've continued to repeat.

Please stop defending BG and offer me insights support but leave her the hell out of this. If you cannot relate then perhaps you dont need to post. I ve no interest in BG.. you do, so go deal with her and offer her all the support you want. I''m so done wiht the BG issue it isnt funny.

What none of you will succeed in doing is changing my core belief of what interacting with someone should involve. And because I am very comfortable in my core belief; there is no need to debate it; what is needed here is me learning to better handle the differences when they do occur.

Defending the other party is not going to succeed in me accomplishing this.

Perhaps it would better soothe those who are wanting ot support but are at a loss to think of times when they have felt used and or invalidated. That is the key issue here. The above was the 'reason' why.. again, I am not after 'majority rules'; I am seeking out how I can learn to do handle such situations differently.