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just a note here, i am posting on here for me and reading and posting on a asperger and partner board also. i am not sure about doing both, lol.

basically this recovery from bpd is about completely contrary to the other board. no wonder my H and i clash, we would even without his other issues.

its amazing the diff. and how hard this all is!

just wanted to share, it just struck me.

How do you mean they are contrary? I don't get that.

just speaking for me, ellen....

i have really been concentrating on the AS/NT board the last few days.

on here i work on identifying my feelings, changing them to a more positive way, etc. bpd is a disorder of emotions.

aspergers is a completely different disorder. (i know, doh, right--i just didnt realize how much)

i found learning how someone thinks who is a aspie. (most do not mind the term "aspie", if someone here does i will not use it again, just tell me)

im not sure but when i came back here while ago, i realized i was having a ton of trouble changing my perception from that one to this one.

it seemed i was learning how they dont connect with others, while here i am trying TO connect. i am trying to identify emotions they dont have. needs they dont have.

contrary may have not been the right word, im not sure what is the right word,tho.

its just so different in so many ways. i venture possibly my emotional issues are the worst possible thing to have a partner with aspergers.

my inability to contain my emotions --theirs to identify and show theirs or lack of such need. . my need for contact, their need/lack of for no or little contact. their logic vs my emotionalism thought processes. their planning for my spur of the moment things. my love of people watching for their need to not be around lots of people.

if there is one thing i usually am NOT, its logical and calm. if there is one thing they ARE, its logical and methodical.

they have a need to not be wrong. to not fail. my goal is seeing where i fail and change it. compromise to them means entirely diff than to me.

their need to not compromise. my need to learn to.

my need for reassurance. their need/lack of to give none.

this is just how i see it. remember that. i could well be wrong and a few have begun to talk to me about it and how they see the world. i cant even fathom most of it.

its very hard for me. it doesnt make them wrong, or me wrong. it just is different.

our board is full of emotion. my way of speaking they can not follow and keep asking me "what do i mean?" worse than here..lol. i love the fact i am asked, it helps a lot. but i realize how i talk like i think, and how it is not helping me with my H at all.

they are more full of facts. we are more full of "i feel".

they are more like how Ash and some others talk on here. im afraid i will cause a problem there and i dont want to.

i already messed up by using the words recovery and healing to describe my journey. they have nothing to recover from and i do.

help any, ellen?

I think I get it. Sounds like it's the shift from working on understanding someone else's worldview to working on your own stuff that's disjunctive, which relates in part to what you own stuff you are working on is.

Yeah, I think the word contrary isn't quite the right word, but I can understand why you said that. I'm thinking, it's not that recovery from BPD and understanding the Asperger's world view are contrary. It's more like, there's two contrary ways of thinking, and you are sometimes trying to understand one -- your husband's way of thinking -- and sometimes the other -- looking at your own emotional thinking for self understanding.

Of course, I'm not real familiar with the message board so I can't say anything about it in particular. I did look at it when you linked to it. Enough to know it's not for me, but not enough to get a more general impression.

So, I now understand somewhat what you mean.

For some people with Asperger's, there is that same challenge of learning to connect with others. Some do want contact with others. (I'm not sure whether it should be "some of them" or "some of us" because I'm not sure where I fall -- I understand me, but I don't define the labels). Still, some have either little need for that or just a lot less than most folks, and it is a different kind of thing to understand.

I guess what strikes me is that you are here to work on you - to understand you and how you think, feel, etc. The other board is to learn to understand people with Asperger's. Just because you're on that board doesn't mean you can't still work on yourself here. I can see how it must be hard to go back and forth though. I think it's really cool that you're trying to understand your H!!!!

it just struck me after i was on the other, how hard it is to come here and see the opposite. strange. very strange.

it is- i think bpd is very opposite of aspergers in ways.

yes, some do want to understand the NT world. more like a us vs them mentality, i think. and they dont like "having" to change to work with the NT world. not all, some.

the guy who runs the board is very knowledgable, very understanding, very bright.

it just hits me, how diff i am than my H. how diff things are and the shift to my issues from listening to the aspies over there. im not sure i can do it, honestly. im not sure its gonna work too well. its like learning to shift gears...on a standard transmission. lol.

What does NT mean?

If you find it too difficult to be there, there must be other ways to learn about Asperger's. Don't drive yourself crazy. You don't have to learn everything all at once. Take it slow!

NT = neurotypical, meaning those who are neurological average. Most people.



It depends on the person. Both BPD and Asperger's have a lot of variation. Yeah, you can take a person with BPD, and a person with Asperger's, and the person's BPD and the other person's Asperger's are opposite. Yet, one can also have both. At the autism/aspie forum I visit, I've seen a couple people who are diagnosed with both. And me, I'm not diagnosed with anything, but though each of these I've learned a lot about myself.

There was even a thread over there were someone asked what the difference between BPD and Asperger's is. From what he knew of each, he couldn't see a difference. I was the one who asked the counter question, what's the same? I saw them as very distinctly different, even if they can co-exist. The discussion was interesting. It relates to the idea that's occasionally been posted here that for at least some with BPD, there is a biological vulnerability. And the idea, basically, was that that biological vulnerability (not BPD, but the biological vulnerability that's one factor in it) is similiar to the neurological difference behind Asperger's. Not the same, but somewhat similar.

I read one book that says in people with autism and Asperger's prefer "computer thinking" (basically, logical thinking) to social thinking. I think one could make an argument that people with BPD put emotional thinking over social thinking.

But isn't Aperger's more of a medical condition, whereas BPD is a personality condition? People with BPD can recover, but I don't think people with Asperger's can. To me, comparing both is like comparing apples and oranges. They may both have biological roots, but so do a lot of other illnesses.

In short, in both cases, you have innate neurological differences, personality traits that follow from that, and issues related to trauma. All of those contribute to the whole of what people with each look like. (Note, as I said before

And both are defined by outward behaviors. So, really, even Asperger's isn't, at least by the official (DSM) definition, a neurological condition. Like everything in DSM, it's a set of behaviors.

There's some truth to what you say. Though Asperger's is NOT a medical condition. It's a neurological difference. And it's defined as a mental disorder, just as BPD is.

And, I would argue, BPD is NOT a personality condition. Though, that there is my personal opinion.

Actually, I would argue that Asperger's affects the personality more deeply than BPD does. BPD is something that's on top of who we are. Asperger's is something that deeply affects who we are, it affects the essence of who we are.

I'm thinking Jody won't mind me taking an aside here to answer your question. But, I'm not really wanting a lengthy discussion on this, nor is this thread the place for it. Here's an article that talks about BPD sometimes including a biological vulnerability. http://www.aaets.org/article20.htm And the first book I ever read on BPD quoted Marsha Linehan as saying people with BPD have an innate biological vulnerability. I'll look later for some links and if I find them, post them in a different thread.

Note that my replies in this thread are aimed at one person, Jody, so I haven't explained things the same way I would if I was starting a new thread or engaging in a general discussion.

its fine, ellen:)

aspergers and autism is caused by the brain wiring is different. totally biological, altho they can choose to change some of their behavior ways--not change it but adapt, i guess is a better word. they will not ever change how they see things. its just not there in their brains. as we cant lose our emotions, they cant make theirs either.

bpd is a personality disorder from *usually* trauma with a genetic tendency and can be unlearned. aspergers can not. they do not think they have anything to unlearn. i have noted some are very defensive about this. some dont understand our needs for hugs or empathy or such. i think of it more like spock from star trek/ its illogical...as he would say.

and yes, they have logical thinking while we have emotional thinking.

they dont see the world in the same way thru a electric/neuron brain wiring thing.

of course since we dont know how exactly the brain works anyways, lots is still a mystery.

aspergers has nothing to do with trauma. it is genetic. since my H has this combination of things, he is no doubt completely who knows what. abuse, aspergers, alcoholism. God only knows what it all came to in his brain. it isnt a good look, i can tell ya that.

ellen, i have to disagree with you on some of that. aspergers isnt a group of behaviors. its a way of seeing the world and thinking. """"Like everything in DSM, it's a set of behaviors.""""" no, it isnt. its a way of thinking. behaviors will come from that, yes. but basically it isnt change the behavior, change the person. its a way they see and think.

i would agree aspergers affects the behavior. certainly. because the majority of humans are wired for emotion, they are in the minority of things. i would argue emotion is what keeps or kept the human race alive. it is what causes us to nurture our children and connect with others. aspergers doesnt have that. some things i think they wouldnt like me saying ...lol...but it is just my view. aspies dont know how to hug (they see no need for it), or comfort, or compromise (no need because they are almost always right in their view). basic things necessary to sustain civilization. to have groups for protection and food. it could be argued humans are wired for needing love from birth and aspies are not wired that way.

when my H is sober, and i know what to look for, i can see his aspergers clearly and how to talk to him. i can also see what to not expect from him. drunk, however its a whole new ballgame and much worse.

i already have found how i speak is confusing to aspies.

the key to this is both parties willing to listen and compromise. and i wont have that with my H. compromise means losing to him. he wont accept losing.

im not saying some behaviors might not be in common with both or other disorders. im sure there are. but the bottom line is its very different. what we are learning to expect, they do not expect or see the need for. what humans have developed over thousands of years as social cues and communication, aspies dont understand or need.

You are disagreeing with something distinctly different than what I actually said, I think. That's not my personal opinion on what Asperger's is. It's what's in the diagnostic criteria. Psychiatrists and other doctors don't have a magic wand. Nor are their any physical symptoms they can see to diagnosis it. Diagnosis is based on behavior. I'm not wrong on that. Here's one of many webpages with the diagnostic criteria: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/1807/criteria.html My comment there was not about the nature of people with Asperger's, but rather, about the nature of diagnosing Asperger's.

was your H dx'd jody? Looks like you got a lot of information on the disorder

my bad ellen. it only shows the traits for dx, not the reason behind it happening.

no rainbow, he is not formally dxed. he wont go. there is nothing wrong with him, only the rest of us. and he is seldom sober and no one needs to have to deal with him drunk. he wont hear of any testing. he can walk on water, ya know.

if you want the other link i have where i have been posting, let me know. i will send it pm. i have learned a ton there, very helpful stuff. when my H is sober, i can handle it. and know why he acts how he does. drunk tho, he turns mean and abusive.

Lots of people who do have an Asperger's diagnosis would agree that there's nothing wrong with them. They accept they have Asperger's. They don't see it as something wrong with them. It's a disability yes (my word), but also a good trait. Different, but not something wrong with them.

Unfortunately, I'm not thinking you'll convince your husband of that perspective. Not that I think a formal diagnosis is particularly necessary for an adult (unless they are looking for professional help of some sort in connection). But self understanding can be a damn good thing. A label doesn't change who I am. And that would be just as true for a formally diagnosed label. But it does help me understand myself better.

I have a friend who teaches special education kids. She has some Asperger's kids in her class. And another friend whose grandson has it. I asked them what happens to these kids when they become adults. They said that most Asperger's kids are very smart and a lot of them go on to become college professors and scientists. Of course that's a generalization, but I bet some of it is true. I have no first-hand knowledge of this - I was just asking them because of this thread. They didnt' seem to look at it in a negative way either.

i have been asking, and havent got a answer yet, but i recognize all the traits. the thing is my H has them to a degree i do not see in the others. they listen. yes, they are not in denial and such, sorta like us here. other people with bpd not in counseling and all would be a nightmare at times. face it, i mean, its not a pretty sight when one is not in recovery.

while aspergers can be argued to be a disorder, or not it is a fact that the world demands compromise and such. no one person can be right all the time. im not sure where my H has taken this---seems to have it twisted up big time.

interesting tho. i have figured out the better way to deal with him. altho for me its extremely hard. no defense, no confrontations, just statements of fact and not be drawn into his conflicts.

aspergers are very smart. their issue is social..other people. book smart isnt a issue. getting along in society is. even getting along in the kids society is a struggle for them. its when they have a close friend or spouse the issues begin with a vengeance.

therein is the problem ,ellen. they have nothing wrong. its us who do. but the fact of life, reality no matter whose it is, is life demands compromise and communication. unfortunately. here, there, everywhere. it is something we learn here and they dont see the need for it. and there is the conflict.

to me, i will get a lot of flak for this but oh well...its a very narcissistic , selfish way to view the world. to them its just how it is because others dont seem to count in the long run.

you know, i accept i have cptsd and bpd. but i see how i need to fix some things to make my life better and others lives better. i dont believe many with aspergers see this because others are not in the equation. they have to "work" at it and they say its exhausting. (their words) to them they are fine. to a one, i have not found one who thinks otherwise. which would be fine on a island. lol. the fact is others in the world matter. others need something from each of us. it conflicts. it always will.

i have forgotten my stuff about letting him own his stuff and i must get back to that. its so easy to slip into owning his stuff.

in a way, ellen, i guess thats right. there is nothing wrong with them. if we need something from another person, it would be our issue, even tho it would be a normal need. its our problem to need caring and love.

Jody, can you please explain what you mean by this:



Who are the "other people?"

Whether people with Asperger's are in denial or not, they still have a disorder (or whatever you want to call it). They just don't think they do.

Many people have issues, whether it's Asperger's or not. We all have to learn how to communicate with other people - our spouses, our children, etc. I admit it must be harder with people with Asperger's. We learn what is the best way. I don't know if it's fair to say people with Asperger's are narcissistic. They have a problem that is not their fault. They can't help it. They can learn to cope.

I know you have a challenge and I admire you for facing it and dealing with it. You are doing a great job - all the research, etc. Your H may not realize it, but he's lucky to have you.

Yeah, I'd agree that Asperger's and Narcissism can look at lot alike sometimes (not always) despite their nature being quite different.

P.S. Interesting webpage on Asperger's and Narcissism.

I know I've been pretty unhelpful in PM recently, but I'll see what I can think of today.

The question came up here of what does Aspergers have to do with trauma? Having Aspergers gives a high chance of a confusing and distressing childhood, more so for the kids who want a social life and slowly find they can't have one. I was clearly a bully-magnet during my school years, and I hear this is quite common. There's also the less obvious internal problems with making sense of the world: for many autistic kids, normal life (and even their own bodies and feelings) can seem alien and dangerous and impossible to understand. Some of the books I read suggested that most people with Aspergers have some kind of trauma disorder as well.

That side of it is probably what brought me to BPDR. I saw I had something in common with people who had BPD; and with all the help offered, I made rapid progress during my first couple of years here. Unfortunately, the actual Aspergers stuff is more difficult to work on. While working on things relevant to this board, I've learned a lot here about how to interact with other people; but there's always much further to go.


I'm one who knows I have work to do. And I'm willing to be wrong, sometimes. Though sometimes I do hide away by myself when I don't have enough energy to do this work. Life is exhausting a lot of the time for me.

----

I thought you might be interested in AJ Mahari's writing. She has Aspergers and used to have BPD. She's done a lot of work on herself.
This page has about 30 articles with her perspective on Aspergers and what she's done to adapt to it: http://www.aspergeradults.ca/asarticles.html
And some videos on Youtube: http://ca.youtube.com/user/ajmmahari

Donna Williams is another who's done a huge amount of self-work. She has classic autism. I'm not sure if it's mentioned anywhere on her website, but what struck me most in her books was about how she came to terms with having feelings, what they all meant and what to do about them. Few figure that out, and many don't even start. I'd like to get there too.
There are some other articles on her site: http://www.donnawilliams.net/

Thanks Ellen. So it seems that one difference is that Narcissists choose to be cold and indifferent, while those with Asperger's can't help it. I know that's a very black-and-white statement, but I do see the differences. Also, isn't Narcissism a personality disorder, while Asperger's isn't listed under Personality Disorders in the DSM?

narcissism is a personalty disorder, some think is a degree of bpd, on the extreme side.

aspergers is a developmental disorder due to brain wiring.

some similiar behaviors with very diff causes and basis. aspergers have a self. Ns do not. Ns recognize others as pawns, aspergers do not use pawns. its just very diff things with some similiar behaviors on the surface.
Ns do not choose to be cold and are never indifferent. aspergers are not either but they dont see the need to be social.

aspergers is only a problem when someone with it wants to be social in a close relationship of some type and doesnt know how. bosses vs employee, spouses, etc. other than that issue, they seem quite happy.

to learn to communicate if one has aspergers seems to be almost insurmountable sometimes to some of them. they do not see or hear the world as NTs do.

i have asked this question to several now and no one has answered me. but i wanted to know if my Hs was a extreme depth of aspergers or another condition. they just list me the traits and i dont need that. i know the traits. his is simply off the chart in severity. he does not have to do a thing to get along in the world. believe me. he is never told no, he does what he pleases, and doesnt give a shit about anything else. cross that and he will not only kill you but i can see him killing himself also to stay out of prison. anyone who gives up their kids to stay out of jail will do anything, in my view.

"""""Jody, can you please explain what you mean by this:


Quote:
other people with bpd not in counseling and all would be a nightmare at times.


Who are the "other people?"""""

anyone who is like my H, who decides to hell with it, i will live how i please. i will hurt who i want, i will take drugs till i OD, i will simply do nothing i do not want to do.

to want to be healthy and happy and if one has a disorder of any kind, one must accept the fact they have it, want to change and begin the path. the ones who wont are the "others" i meant. say i am told i have diabetes. i can choose to do it my way and die. i can choose to change my life and try hard and get healthier.

make sense yet?

stoneglow, it is your choice to not discuss a thing with me here or in pm about aspergers. i respect that and will simply keep looking elsewhere seeking answers. i may never find them..who knows.

i dont consider it unhelpful. i consider it your choice. shrug*

personally, tonite, im done with life. im going to bed. i have had it with people in my life today.

It seems that maybe the only way you can really find out about your H is if he saw a professional himself. I would think it's hard to get answers when the person you're asking doesn't know your H. I know when I've asked those kinds of questions to professionals they kind of evade me, and say they would have to see the patient.

I'm sorry you're having a bad night. I wish you peace in the New Year!

(((Jody))))