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I suppose that I can feel overly discouraged sometimes.
This sort of thing doesn't just happen online. I see similar issues in my "real life" support groups - places where there are even fewer means to enforce standards or apply leverage of any kind. Situations where calling people out can be misconstrued as "taking someone else's inventory".

Matter of fact, I'm feeling overly discouraged these days because of this sort of thing in my RL.
I feel like I'm herding cats.

I think sometimes who says something makes a difference. Someone is more likely to listen to someone whose opinion they respect.

I was once a message board where some people said I posted too much and should post less, others expressed real appreciation for my posts, and I was being told both that I was killing the message board and bringing it to life. How I responded to that, what I chose to do in the future, wasn't just a matter of listening to the message I like. Though a bit of that is natural. But, ultimately, with those mixed messages, what made a big difference was knowing how one particular person who I respected a lot felt. It was a matter of whose opinion I trusted.

(I understand that some folks in this thread have alluded to BPDR community members and I can appreciate that as I don't think this topic is endemic solely to a single message board on the entirety of the internet however I want to reiterate in no uncertain terms that I am focused on, thinking about and alluding to people who are not here and completely outside of the BPDR community.)

Yeah, the other place doesn't have a Convo Corner style place. (As far as I know, BPDR is unique in that regard.)

Another aspect that makes it difficult for me is that the other place isn't focused on recovery so there's no real expectation that we'll be calling each other out on stuff with the intention of improving. And I think that because there's not really a specific focus at the board, it makes things easier for people to just let loose in all manner of ways, healthy, unhealthy, annoying, toxic - the whole spectrum.

I was pretty close to doing the "directly to the person, from my own perspective" thing the other day. In fact, I have it all typed out but couldn't post it.

My past interactions and experiences with this one person have told me that anything even remotely close to "direct" with him/her will result in a hissy-fit and stomping off, sulking and then a gradual re-emergence only to return to the same old antics.

And it's not just when *I* am direct with him/her. This person in particular gets quite paranoid and leaps to some pretty fantastic conclusions & bases their next actions on those outlandish misrepresentations of reality.

There's another person at that board who's also a bit dramatic and constantly refers to any of four topics: work, kids, family or Significant Other. There's never any real interest in what's going on with anyone else. No questions of other people's lives. No back-and-forth, give-and-take. They do a better job of not hijacking or obsessing about unhealthy stuff, per se, but it gets damn tedious that every. single. flippin'. post from the person is about those four things. Without exception. Maybe it's the self-centeredness that bugs me, I dunno.

Or maybe not. Cuz there's another person who pops in every couple of weeks/months to start a thread about his/her life issues at the moment or to seek advice on a particular topic but then never bothers to check in on anyone else, participate in anyone else's threads, really be part of the community now that his/her life is going pretty well (and fairly busy.) For some reason, I've never really been bothered by his/her self-centeredness, probably because it's all very matter-of-fact rather than filled with "OMG, can you believe it?!" and "Seriously, WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!" all the time. (Again, that excessive emotionalism and over-the-top approach is probably what disgusts me the most.)

Now, that's not to say I've never had an emotional moment! Once-in-a-while is different from a reptitive pattern of behaviour, IMO.

Anyway, if it were just a matter of these people taking distance to reflect and combine that with good modeling from the rest of the community, there would have been change by now, one would think. These people have been around good modeling for YEARS and haven't changed in the least little bit which tells me that either the distance isn't far enough or there's just a complete inability or lack of interest in reflection. So that then begs the question, when is enough just enough? When is it time to call it quits? When does a community stop pouring good resources into individuals who have not expressed interest in or the ability to improve, change, look within, etc.?

Ash

So knowing a bit more about the board you're having trouble on, it seems to me ignoring it is probably best. I think of what I'd do in 3d life with someone like those you've described in your last thread, and I reckon I'd just avoid them, ignore them, not feed into their stuff etc. This is the only place I can behave the way I do here, giving unrequested advice, calling people on their stuff. I've tried this off the board and it's been utterly obvious I'm crossing boundaries.

The thing about online forums is in participating we are electing to associate with a wide community. Not all of the people in that community we would otherwise choose to associate with. By joining BPDR I have elected to, at the very least, cross paths with people who in my 3d social spectrum I may choose to avoid. It's not their fault that they rub me the wrong way or that we are on different wavelengths. But by choosing to be here, as a member of a broad community, I am electing to associate and to some degree interact with everyone. So if I find someone bothers me, it's my responsibility to accept that I've chosen to be here. I can always leave. You've said yourself many times before to Ash. You could leave that board, or you could ignore the people who bother you. But if the premise of the board does not involve calling people on their stuff then it doesn't seem appropriate IMO to try to change their behaviour.




It is my opinion that if a community is designed to help people whilst not allowing people to be called on their stuff, then the very foundation of that community is flawed in it's ability to actually help people. It's a paradox. But then, that's why BPDR is the only recovery board I've ever been involved with, so clearly that is my own way of seeking recovery and helping others.

You know what they say Ash, you can lead a horse to water... so maybe you should just stop wasting your resources on these individuals.

I'm thinking, there's what a fellow board member can do, and what a board Admin can do. In both cases, keep in mind what will likely be effective or not with the individual.

If a fellow board member is posting in a way that is inappropriate to me personally or for the board as a whole, I have three options. No, actually four.

I can say something to the person. My experience, as far as when it was a matter of how I was being treated, sometimes it works well, sometimes, when done privately, it results in being cursed at. The only time I've tried it publically (at other boards) was after talking to them privately by email didn't work, and it was more making a statement to the community of how I felt than expecting the person to change. And actually, in that particular situation, I should have said something in person to his face, but I didn't think of that until it was really too late. Usually, of course, that's not even an option.

You can ask someone else to say something to the person. I'm thinking not usually a good option, but there may be the occasional time when it's a good option. Especially, when a mutual friend, when made aware of the situation, may choose to say something to the person not for my benefit, by for the other person's benefit.

You can take it to the admins, who may do something official.

Or, you can ignore it.


Administrators and moderators have additional tools... banning and post moderating. Here at BPDR temporary banning has occasionally been used (though not recently that I know of) in melt down situations. But that's a different situation than a drama / attention-seeking thing that comes from the person's normal mental state. I really don't have any thoughts on when that's appropriate, though.

If posting too much is a real issue that can be solved via the software most boards provide, by limiting the number of posts a person can make in a day. So, that puts it down to the choice of the admin/mod team.

Drama and attention based on the responses I've seen here to date, is really a personal interpretation and therefore, needs to be handled by the person who sees it as such (personal accountability) . I can see where black and white thinking; separation of stuff comes in to play here.

If it's excessive and repetitive and management is the one with the issue, since it is their board, then yep they have the right to address it. Hopefully tactifully and with some compassion while they determine what is going on for the individual.

I have seen on various boards that compassion is doled out when someone has walked in the others shoes and when they haven't the other is seen in all sorts of negative light. From my own experiences I know how difficult it can be to find compassion, or even less, try to discern, or help another discern, what is going on for them when their behavior is so adverse to what is acceptable (again, mostly subjective, hence this too seems to revert back to personal accountability).

It's been stated here often that no one has to a) be here b) read all posts c) interact with everyone so I am having a heck of a time getting past this topic not being about one's own personal likes/dislikes and how they can best deal.

Someone made a post about how the internet provides a social situation that isn't common in 3d and I think that is a very good point and must be taken into account with how any internet situation is handled.

Smilin, it may be a personal interpretation and I think I've already acknowledged that it's a grey area but don't you think there are some commonalities across the board and that the greyness comes in where the line gets drawn for each person?

I'm an admin at that other board so unfortunately I don't have the luxury of being "one of the gang" and taking that approach. Since I'm an admin (and the software provider and the webhost sponsor), it kind of does fall into my lap regardless. It sure would be nice and easy if I could do as you suggest and just walk away from it.

The reason I brought this up here was to get more input since our adming group over there seem to have reached a dead end when it comes to dealing with it. We want the community to not only survive but thrive as well. We've talked amongst ourselves and gotten only so far and it didn't seem right to bring that topic into the middle of the community - that would only cause more drama, which is precisely what we're trying to avoid, ya know?

I've checked and the software we're running over there doesn't allow for post-per-day limitations. Would that it did!

What's interesting is that for all of the dramas and issues the main person brings up, between the group of us admins, one of us has invariably been there. Whether it's an eating disorder, loss of a parent, drug abuse, psychiatric hospitalization, etc., one of us has been there so I doubt it's really a matter of "we don't know where this person's coming from so we're being unduly hard on them."

The community itself is in its umpteenth generation. That is to say that a splinter group of folks dropped off a very well known, gargantuan-in-size and volume board. The guy that started the off-shoot board got tired of dealing with the dramatic crap and essentially shut it down & walked away but one of the girls started up another board for those of us that wanted to stay away from the big board. She started it on her boyfriend's server and that worked for a while, until she broke up with him and the site came down. Some of us felt lost and adrift & really missed the friendships we had developed so I volunteered to put it back up there and when we started again (new admins, no mods) the we (the admins) decided that we didn't really want or need to have a specific focus (like we have here at BPDR where the focus is on recovery from borderline) but we knew we didn't want the place to devolve into pity parties, drama fests and unhealthy addictions as it had in the past.

So we're really trying hard to figure out how to nudge someone away from the "socially unacceptable" things and steer them more toward the "be normal, have fun, be a real friend" stuff.

While I don't think we've come up with any concrete plans (here or there) I think we're gaining more perspective and truly doing our best to avoid stepping into the Drama Traps with the person. For now, I think that's all we can really do. I think 'rewarding' the socially acceptable stuff by responding and interacting and kind of turning our virtual nose up in disgust at the socially unacceptable stuff is going to be the only (and possibly best) way to deal with this.

We're starting to get some 'new' people there - fresh blood, if you will - and they're still basically friends of friends of friends from that original big board. Banning or other formal administrative measures would just cause more drama and bad blood, I think.

Anyways, thanks for all the input. And Marni, thanks for the reminder: "You are the drama you seek."

The only thing I can think of Ash, is to not respond to the drama-person - basically ignore those posts.

I like that term, "drama traps". Because I do understand how one can get pulled into drama while not seeking it.

BG, if someone showed up here and monopolized the board with dramatic posts obsessing about the same old things without ever really expressing any desire to become healthier and I just ignored their posts, how well do you think that would go over with the rest of the community? Would it sit well with you?

It's not just about whether or not "the troll is being fed" -- if there's really a troll (and knock wood, it's been ages since we've had one here!) posting disturbing or obnoxious crap, it would be quite easy to ban them and make them go *poof*! Or if they were a newbie that no one knew, it'd be much easier to ignore the behaviour (because other members would also ignore the behaviour, or at that board, mock them mercilessly) until they either shaped up or shipped out.

When it's someone that's known and cared about, members are less likely to ignore attention-seeking behaviour. One person - or a small handful of people - ignoring the behaviour won't do much in the face of the onslaught because there will always be someone in the group who thinks "Gee, no one's talking to this person and they obviously want someone to talk to so I should reach out to them" and that just perpetuates the cycle, ad infinitum.

I know because we've already tried that. It just does not stop because a few people ignore their behaviour. Since not everyone will ignore it, there's always some breeze fanning the flames of drama and it's hurting the community.

As the folks at the consulting site I go to say, there's affirming feedback ("way to go!") and correcting feedback ("knock it off") and it seems as though their approach is going to be the most helpful in this situation. Reward the person when they do well (socially acceptable) by interacting with them and enforce the consequence of no-interaction when they don't do so well (socially unacceptable.)

Thanks for your input though.

Was thinking a bit Ash and relating what you are saying to the drama triangle. If someone is in victim role say the other roles to avoid falling into are either the rescuer or the persecuter, or anyone of the three. The way to achieve this is to go into nurture mode. Keep your own boundaries tight. Keep clear of the pull of wanting to fix it. To encourage someone to take accountability for their actions, encourage them to take care of self.... but ultimately to stay away from entering any of those roles yourself. It can be easy enough to even step into the victim role in the act of dealing with someone that seems to attract drama.... pushing them into a persecuter role themselves.

Probably just randomness for my own head it is late here, but thought it might be worth bearing in mind the dynamics of drama triangles.

You're right about it with this board Ash. But since I don't know anything about the other board, that's why I replied the way I did. Also because you said it's not a recovery-based board. So it's hard to know what to do without knowing anything about that board. But I think what Tracy said makes sense.

Hi Ash,

I, too, have been involved in big boards, splinter groups, and various formats of board management. I think this question is a tricky one:

When does a community stop pouring good resources into individuals who have not expressed interest in or the ability to improve, change, look within, etc.?

I think it depends on the word "community", and who holds the power to determine REAL change.

On one board - there was a person I found particularly dramatic, same thing, over and over, going no where, and what bugged me was it seemed a group of members fed into him/her in a seriously unhealthy way. On that board, I really didn't have the power to do anything, except manage my own reaction. I tried a plethora of things, probably too many, eventually to realize, it really bugged me, and this member was not interested in anything but gaining sympathy for a self induced problem.

I accepted that the powers that were - weren't willing to force things to stop. This bothered me, but I didn't have any power to change anything. It wasn't my board, and they knew how I felt - I actually knew they all agreed, but opted address it PM wise - but nothing more. As long as people engaged with the situation, it continued (which really seemed like forever). The only option I had was to leave, or learn about me, and my reactions - which I did.

Eventually, this person's situation ended naturally - and the poster came back occassionally, bringing more "drama". Big guns in the community seemed to tell it like it was, but that didn't stop anything. The community was big enough that the issue wasn't dominant.

So - factors related are the size of the community, who has the power to really do anything but ignore/be direct.

I think one reality is that the community as a whole won't neccesarily cease and desist, even if it seems they should. People are just in different places, and often connect in unhealthy ways - in "support".

I do believe that admin groups on boards have to make decisions. It's utopian to think that the board of most groups don't need clear leadership. The peer/friendship groups I've engaged in tend to dwindle down in numbers as the only really connection is agreement. Splinter boards seem to roll nicely for a while, then surge with issues, depending on the members. What I've seen is that if the admin group is complicit to the situation (by doing nothing), valuable members who are quietly frustrated drop off (I know I have from at least two boards like this).

Power and leadership in admin groups is complex, and seems deferred to ownership interests . . . (friendship, purpose, what's the focus and how is conflict handled?).

One thing I value about this board is the means to attempt to resolve things outside of waiting for a power to intervene. However, most boards don't have that.

Hope you find your path with this one.

Best,

Molly

It is probably the teacher in me (my caseload was mainly high school special education students with behavioral and emotional disabilities) that views life as a classroom so this is no different. I suppose my need for classroom management has not really allowed me to effectively ignore students who are acting up. I am sure that if a student were acting inappropriately and I were to turn my back or step out of the room while it was happening, the entire class would end up completely out of control and I would more than likely be fired for lack of supervision. That does not mean that I address every minor thing but when there is trouble I have to be on top of it before it has a chance to spread. Even if I could effectively ignore a student, the rest of the class would not!

I had a female student who was prone to being overly dramatic and I was able to use peer pressure effectively with her. When she would enter my classroom in a loud obnoxious manner, I would simply state "your friends are watching you" and that was usually all it took for her to be aware of how she was coming across to others and to lower her voice to a more appropriate level. As long as members of a group have some accountability with each other, peer pressure can work wonders. There is just no way for me, or the rest of the students in my class class, to be productive when a student is disruptive.

I am not currently involved with other message boards but I have posted at other sites in the past, both parenting sites and mental health sites. What I have observed is that if a person is not made aware that what they are doing is inappropriate, the behavior will more than likely continue because the message the person is getting is that people are okay with the way they are acting unless those people indicate otherwise. If we are silent, that gives others "permission" to act however they see fit and not everyone treats others with the same respect they expect for themselves. If I may quote the author of a book I am reading, "Evil will spread when good people do nothing." Bullies have learned how to manipulate others into silence, often by playing the victim as a means of victimizing others, in order to get away with poor behavior.

Molly, thank you so much for your words and wisdom on this.

I don't think I ever realized what a responsibility it would be to take on an Admin role - here or elsewhere. At the boards where I'm just a regular community member, things are so much different for me cuz I have no problem whatsoever in backing away, ignoring, examining my own reactions (when they happen) and moving on. I don't have the involvement or attachment like I do at places where I admin. There's very little of me invested in the continuity of the community, though I wouldn't wish any of them to go away. I'm there for myself, for my own reasons and I don't find myself overly distracted by the big picture and so-forth.

Taking the admin role generally means giving up the anonymity and relaxation (of a sort) of being a Regular Joe / Josephine.

Anyway, thank you for sharing your wisdom and perspective. It can be incredibly frustrating watching as Admin does nothing as someone clearly attempts to garner sympathy for self-induced problems. (Fantastic description, btw.) And that's the main reason I started this thread - because I don't want to be part of the problem (by tacitly lending approval of unacceptable behaviour through my own inaction.)

You've also given me something to think about in terms of the connection within a peer/friendship board. You're right, of course. I was a mod at a board that centered around a television show that recently was canceled after a number of seasons. The board essentially died within two months of the show's cancellation, though - in years past - it survived a summer hiatus and the writer's strike without any hiccups. Without that common thread, it may be doomed to fail. This is something that we tried to re-define when we started up again but didn't get very far. Perhaps it's time for us to revisit that again and see if that can help the community (small as it is now) get more cohesive and focused on a common purpose where social norms would be more easily recognizable.

BG, I know you don't know anything about the other board, beyond what I've shared here. I was trying to get you to imagine what you suggested as happening here to see if you thought it a feasible and reasonable approach for any board, regardless of what the other board in question is like. The specifics aren't too terribly relevant. I was mostly interested in how best to deal with posting to gain attention - whether intentional or subconsciously.

Tracy, I get what you're saying (after the third read-through, something about the grammar just really threw me at first) about the Victim, Persecuter and Rescuer. From a personal standpoint, overall, my boundaries are pretty much okay. The other person has made their choice despite a few attempts on my part to offer nudges, resources, alternatives, etc. I can't save them from themselves. I can't care more about how they manage their life than they do! And I don't.

What concerns me is the impact the attention-seeking is having on the fragile community. Some of the folks don't seem to realize they're getting caught in those Drama Traps. They are unwitting pawns (as is the person him/herself, I believe) in becoming a Rescuer to the Victim without realizing that the so-called Victim has no interest in being rescued; s/he's quite content to remain right where they are and never climb up out of the abyss.

If you haven't already read this - The Bridge - off the Home page, in the Inspiration section, it's pretty much what's happening. I'm okay with walking away and continuing my journey across the bridge. What bothers me from an Admin perspective is watching a jam-up on the bridge as a crowd gathers to chat with, offer encouragement, throw down resources and wait with bated breath for a rescue that will never happen (until the person's quite good & ready). It's bottle-necking the community and that is, IMO, quite a different issue.

Denim, "great minds think alike!" LOL I was trying to post all of the above stuff when your post went up. Your quote about evil is what I'm trying to avoid. I'm trying to figure out how to invoke peer pressure or appropriate administrative consequences to evoke the more acceptable behaviour for the well-being of the group. I don't want to be a silent by-stander. Heck, I don't even want to be see or thought of that way! I'd much rather take action and fail than do nothing at all to reap the inevitable.

I understand Ash. At the beginning of this thread you did ask us what we think about drama-seeking behavior and I did give my input. I suppose ideally it would be best if someone, a mod probably, could bring that behavior to the person's attention. Whether it's done privately or in person would be up to the mod. I know I'm not comfortable when drama-seeking attention occurs. I sometimes have found myself in the middle of it and I know it's not healthy for me. I never believed it was my place to let that person know how her behavior is affecting others on the board, so I usually wait until a mod steps in. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I haven't seen consistency here, but that's for the mods to decide, not me. I think when regular board members step in, it causes more strife. So to recap, I do not like the drama-seeking attention and I would think it's up to the Mods to approach the people in question and help them see how it affects others on the board.

I really like Denim's idea of applying peer pressure because it reinforces the notion of what is acceptable social behavior without putting the burden on any one person to be the "meanie". Plus then the "difficult" person can't claim to be persecuted - a typical (and understandable) maneuver for drama-seeking people, the "poor me, no one understands me" victim mode.

However, dramatic people can factionalize others around them: some support the person while others don't, which is disruptive in itself. This tendency to cause "split camps" may not be purposeful and is most likely just a habitual defense mechanism the dramatic person is unaware of. But it causes lots of environmental chaos, which is harmful for the community in general.

Perhpas it's helpful to see the person as not yet in control of certain behaviors and then to reward any pro-social ones; kinda like "teaching" them appropriate behavior that they may not have learned previously. We train others how to treat us. So what's wrong with applying social pressure to train someone what healthy behavior is and to respect others' boundaries. It's not always effective to come head-on to a dramatic person, and often I think it feeds their acting-out. But subtle pressure - and not ignoring unwelcome behavior - would seem to be an effective solution.

to speak generally, altho i do not know what board Ash refers to, this is my experience on boards for the last 10 yrs or so. only one have i been banned from...the nook. no others. some are still going, some went under.

ANY open board, where one can come and post, will be a mix of many personalities. i am on 2 who you must register, then your posts monitored before you are allowed free access to all the place and immediate posting until you prove you will accept their rules. shrug* its posted on the "for new members" place. you dont do it, your out. they are serious about what they dont want/want. one accepts that if one wants to be part of it. strict rules must be stated and enforced. no cussing, no flaming, blah blah whatever the admin wants is posted under rules. follow it or take a hike. i dont particularly like it, i dont post there but i do read the info from others. too big brother for my taste.

if one has a open board, ie...no certain topics, register and post away, no rules stated, then one will get this Ash described. some dont like something, some do. since i dont know what drama even is to most here, drama is in the eyes of the beholder in my view. one has 3 choices. live with it, or ban someone, or ignore it.

seems some on that board dont like how susie q, john doe, and sally g behave. if its a open board, and no rules, then that is what you get. some things you do like, things you dont. and all in between.

one must either learn to like it or ignore it, or go to rules and strict shit the admins agree on. i have seen boards with both kinds. its a choice.

you will never have a board with no rules, no strictness, and everyone play like you want. wont happen. the web is too big and too wonderful and uncensored for that. same with towns, neighborhoods, and all. its the nature of people and the fantastic varied personalities in it. its what we/i learn from, the differences. (my opinion only)

my opinion only, decide what you want, make it such or let it be as it is. this is too much like control for me, ie...we admin it and we want this and that but we dont want to tell someone that. cant happen. one or the other, so people know what they are sposed to do and say, or let it run free and dont watch the parts someone doesnt like. surprisingly, most will learn from peer pressure eventually. some may not. most will.

i crave boards without control because i have not been allowed to be myself and learn for myself until these last years. that is just MY opinion. how much i didnt know, how much it was not helpful to have people telling me who to be and how to behave. we all should learn this for ourselves. others cant do it for us. sometimes this involves looking away from someone, or stating how one feels then letting it go. on boards with kids there, or some admins religious stuff, it means play here how i tell you or dont come at all. (no cussing, no sex references, etc) but on line we cant have it both ways. the more i read, and post and spread out, the more i see this. one cant have a open board and then complain about how someone behaves on it with no rules in place. people just wont act like we want them to, just because we want it. we are all different.

i know im a much more liberal person than most. i lean to the liberal places altho i have learned a ton here. but i cringe at "acceptable social behavior". depends. is it a board like richardsrealm? is it a recovery board? is it a bullshit lets-all-just-talk board? you cant take a board like rr was and have rules. lol. wont happen. you cant take bpdr and not have any rules. again, wont happen. decide what it is you want from this place. then work into it. if not, you will have a rr place, and it will be a mess to some and fun to some. no one will be completely happy with it.

my 2 cents.