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 Post subject: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:22 pm 
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Just mulling over some of my recent thoughts on this subject...

I have come to recognise that there are certain people in my life who possess both qualities I admire and appreciate and qualities that i don't respect. I've been wondering what i do with their friendships.

On one hand I need to be accountable to myself (re: personal accountability model) so as not to become a victim of these people, and to take responsibility for my own reactions to them. On the other hand I want to look at what impact it has upon me to associate with people who I have trouble respecting.

The reason that a lack of respect for someone arises is when someone's belief system or behaviour conflicts with my ethics/morals. I've been thinking quite a lot about this - how ethics differ from values and that differing vales impact a friendship less than differing ethics. Ethically these people do things, or don't do things, that impact unreasonably upon others, and even upon themselves. I sympathise very much with behaviour that negatively and unreasonably impacts upon oneself. However, a part of my "moral" judgment of these people comes from seeing them do things that i have done to myself, and essentially not doing what I have done which is to take responsibility for myself. I do try very hard to take responsibility for things which effect my life, and am careful to analyse and recognise my own contributions. When i encounter people who repeatedly behave like victims, I find I judge them. I don't trust someone who cannot take responsibility for themselves.

That's one aspect of it and I see that I am somewhat projecting myself onto these people and holding up the same standards for them as I have for myself. I question this. Is this reasonable of me?

Then, and this is what I've been thinking most about, I wonder what it does for me to associate with people who I consciously disrespect. What message does this send to me and to others about my own ethics. When I'm with friends I respect, I leave their company feeling full, like I've had a good hearty meal. I feel nurtured, fulfilled and given to. I take something away with me which adds to my life and sense of well-being. When I leave the company of one of these people I've referred to whom I disrespect I feel taken from, empty, unnurtured and generally unfulfilled. I often find myself talking negatively about these people to others, which is not being impeccable with my word, and basically trying to figure out where to put these people in my life so that I can feel somewhat fulfilled by them, and how to protect myself from that sense of having had someone take from me.

It seems it takes energy to be with someone whose ethics oppose my own. I've found that speaking my mind can make me feel better about the interaction, but it's not really my place to tell someone that their actions conflict with my morals, and, what's more - why do I even want to hang out with these people? I obviously get something from them, and usually it's company. This conflicts with my own ethics too, bc they do not know how little I respect them, and this feels like a lie, which makes me doubt my integrity. Anything that makes me doubt myself is surely not good.

I'm looking for some views on these ideas please.
:-)

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 Post subject: Re: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Hi Sarah,

the key might be this:

Sarah wrote:
I why do I even want to hang out with these people? I obviously get something from them, and usually it's company.


It seems to me that sometimes we just need company and can't necessarily always connect with people who are most compatible for us. I don't think any of us is able to always act with 100 % integrity. All relationships require some level of acceptance of the other and sometimes some level of compromise. I suppose it might be a matter of being wiling to be honest with those whose behaviour we find challenging, when appropriate. And then being able to let go of the expectation that they will change in response to what we say. And sometimes we will have the courage to do so and sometimes not.

I guess what I may be getting at here is the need to be compassionate first with yourself, and then with these 'hard to respect' people. I try to keep in mind that, just like me, everyone is doing the best they are capable of at any given moment. What they are capable depends on who they are, where they are coming from and what help they have had along the way. I have been fortunate to have a lot of help along the way. And I also have a natural tendency to examine my own behaviour and its effect on others (sounds like the same is true of you) . A lot of people have simply never been taught this skill, or even the need for it.

I guess only you can know what the balance is for you, between needing people to hang out with and hanging out with people who are draining or "negative'. I guess another idea might be to focus on the positive aspects of the person when with them. That might make things more enjoyable. But I also believe it is really ok, especially as we change and grow, to give ourselves permission to leave some people behind and open the door for new kinds of company.

You've raised some good questions..I will continue to ponder! :think


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 Post subject: Re: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:43 pm 
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sarah......this hits close to home....i can relate....but i'm on the other side of it now.....having worked through a bit of stuff/ realized stuff....etc....

but i am really really sorry to say I can't respond thoughtfully now because i'm struggling with an issue in my own life....i have nothing to give right now....but i do want to let you know that on another day.....i'd have a lot to say.


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 Post subject: Re: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:26 am 
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Sarah wrote:
When i encounter people who repeatedly behave like victims, I find I judge them. I don't trust someone who cannot take responsibility for themselves.

My answer to this is to simply create a boundary and communicate a consequence. "When you behave in this manner, I don't want to be around you." It's pretty clear. And if they choose to continue behaving like victims, you walk away as promised as a consequence. Your morals, ethics, attitudes, perceptions and judgments are yours and it's okay to have them - whatever they are. You don't have to impose your morals, ethics, attitudes, perceptions or judgments onto others but you also don't need to sit and wallow with them in theirs if you don't wish to.

I don't mean to oversimplify but sometimes the simplest answer is the best answer.

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 Post subject: Re: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:09 pm 
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No I really appreciate it Ash. I think I was distilling my thoughts down to a similar conclusion, that the ethics aside this is a boundary issue. The way I have felt with these certain people is the way my T has described as "the sensation of someone crossing your boundaries" - that feeling where you just want to get out of the room/situation.

It's a simple answer, to lay down my boundary. But geez I wish I could do this before the event.

Putting the original topic, respect, into this context I'd say that the disrespect comes from the pushing of my boundaries, and perhaps even my failure to assert myself. The disrespect is a judgment and I know my judgments have no place in other people's lives. Having found that stating my judgment gives me some relief, I imagine that's bc it's a step towards asserting my boundary, if a clumsy and somewhat destructive one.

Although I, once again, find myself fumbling with boundaries, I do feel encouraged by 3 necessary opportunities to practise asserting them. The challenge is that whilst my greatest fear is rejection/abandonment, asserting boundaries always puts that risk before me.

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 Post subject: Re: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:04 pm 
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Sarah wrote:
The challenge is that whilst my greatest fear is rejection/abandonment, asserting boundaries always puts that risk before me.


Oh yes. Oh, oh, oh yes.

If I assert a boundary, the other person might get pissed and not want to talk to me anymore. Rejection!

But like so many fears, the more facing it is practiced, the less of a grip it holds on us.

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 Post subject: Re: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:23 pm 
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Ok, well I'll need to prepare myself for these boundaries. M stayed at my house last Saturday night, we had a great evening, and in the morning she discovered that her car window had been smashed and her handbag, on the passenger seat, had been stolen. She'd only bought the car a couple of weeks beforehand. Her response to the situation was really difficult to tolerate - it was that boundary crossing feeling.

M often does the poor me, sympathy victim thing. Yep, she can be a real energy vampire. I've had a number of experiences that have made me feel like I'm be wrung like a rag for sympathy. It makes me feel suffocated and I want to run. When M discovered her window had been smashed this happened again, but far more exaggerated, including self induced hyperventilation, tears and a complete denial of her responsibility by claiming she has such "bad luck" etc. It would've made a huge difference to hear her say it was bc she left her bag there, but she jumped at the opportunity, or so it seemed, to grasp some sympathy. She'd have gotten more from me had she not tried to suck my emotions. I virtually asked her to leave, though not quite. I wasn't able to express myself - it was the wrong situation but I could still have been more assertive. I just urged her away.

She called me at lunch the other day and apologised for being such a pain. I just couldn't say anything. Again, lunchtime, while she was about to run into a class, didn't seem the right time to say something. But I will have to bc I do still want to see her. I just can't see her like that.

Small doses is part of the cure, but I must respond to her apology because I don't think she understands. This seems like a very difficult topic to express myself tactfully. I just don't know how to say it nicely. So some words I had in mind:

Your reaction to your window being broken was so extreme and I just felt very much like you were pushing me to express my sympathy and pity for you. It feels very draining and I just want to go away. You'll find my sympathy comes your way more if you don't try to push it from me. I am very happy to be there as a support when you need it, but I want to be the one who chooses how and when I do this. If I'm pushed I will push away.

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 Post subject: Re: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:04 pm 
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Seems nicely worded to me. I think focusing on yourself is good because people are more likely to listen when we talk about ourselves and how something affects us than when we place blame on them (or seem to place blame on them). It might be good also to acknowledge her apology, along with a brief statement of why you are saying something even though she already apologized. That is, if you do decide to say or write something to her along these lines.

I can see how it would be frustrating when someone leaves their purse in their car in view and then, when her car is broken into, is being dramatic about it with no acknowledgement of her own responsibility.

I think you also might consider that her drama may have been her being expresive about her feelings, not her trying to get sympathy.

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 Post subject: Re: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:52 am 
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I hate to say it but the first thing that came into my mind was "What kind of dumbass leaves their purse on the seat of their car overnight?" Cuz really and truly, that has to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard someone do. I don't care what kind of "good neighborhood" you might think you're in, that's just inviting trouble.

And I know of which I speak. I left my purse on the floor of my car, with the windows rolled down about 2" when we took the dogs into the dog park for an hour. When I came back, the car was unlocked and the purse was gone. It was later recovered & the credit cards and cash gone but I got everything else back luckily.

So yeah, it was downright DUMB to do that and she would have gotten not only no sympathy from me but a ration of shit to go with it!

In this case, if I were you, I might just keep things neutral and ask her questions like "What have you learned from this?" or "What could you do differently next time?" Something, anything, to try to force her to think about her actions and the consequences of those actions.

By the way, now when we go to the dog park, I put a credit card and my driver's license in my pocket and leave nothing in the car, with the windows cracked 2". Hey, if they really want to break into the car to get the quart of motor oil or set of jumper cables from the back, they can use the power lock button inside to get into the car without breaking a window.

I might also consider keeping the "feedback" or expression of retroactive boundary a little more succinct. "When you get overly dramatic like that morning you found your car window broken, it feels really draining and I don't want to be around you when you're like that." And just see what - if anything - she has to say about that. I don't think you need to cover hypotheticals (if you do it this way, you'll get more sympathy from me) or even impose your beliefs as to what her motivations might have been (pushing me for sympathy). Just focus on the behaviour she exhibited and indicate the consequence of future displays of that kind. Period. No need to kitchen-sink it, ya know?

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 Post subject: Re: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:03 pm 
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Well....

She took it very indignantly. In fact she was all over the place about it. God her words sounded like ones I've uttered. She swapped from being aggressive and telling me I was aggressive (which I honestly think I wasn't at all) and saying she was pissed off with me, to apologising admitting to and even expanding upon exactly what i was talking about (others have apparently said the same kinds of things to her) to putting me down and down right passive aggression. We split a packet of cigarettes and the evening ended with her raising her eyebrows at how I'd divided the packet between us, which pissed me off. And WOW! How well did I handle it? Overall, pretty well I'd say.

Pat on the back for me. I am really proud of how I dealt with it.

So she said she needed some time to think about what i'd said, and I could see she did. It's so interesting to me to hear her saying things like: "I just take some time to process these things, and I feel hurt, I mean it really upset me when my window was broken, so I'm sorry but I am a bit aggressive and I know I have been in the past and I've really tried to change it, but I think you've been really condescending and that bothers me so I just need to go away and think about it. You can come back to my house if you like though." It was all OVER the place. She tried the old "I can't believe how pissed off you are with me" thing a few times, to which I calmly and repeatedly responded "I'm not pissed off, I'm simply explaining to you something that's made me feel uncomfortable."

I understand, I appreciate how she feels. It's awful bc she's got her own self-loathe battle going on, and her poor understanding of taking responsibility for herself, so she struggles to hear what I'm saying. But I am pissed off. As much as I get it, I'm pissed off that I spent an evening being put down and having to draw on even more resources. I'm pissed off that she sunk so low as to exploit a feeble opportunity to cast a negative light on me by suggesting, facially only, that I was stealing cigarettes from her. I see it was a desperate attempt to "even the tally", but it's not ok.

I'll leave it though. I'll let her settle. But I am disappointed by her reaction.

This boundary stuff is hard. I find myself that when I do this, raise things, do the whole "when you...I feel...if you...I will..." we end up in a big conversation about exactly what it is I have a problem with. It seems to magnify the "problem" beyond what i think it deserves.

I am glad I did this with M though. I need to practise this stuff and the way I felt with her last weekend is exactly the kind of thing I need to be more assertive about. In the past all those things she said , the criticisms of me that appeared to be generated by her defensiveness, I would have taken them on board. But not this time. I have looked into an ugly mirror of myself from some years ago, and it hurts to see through such pathetic, desperate behaviour. I do have compassion for her desperation, but I am now in the Non seat and it's not a nice place to be. Violations left right and centre. But this time I did not doubt myself, I didn't go home and cry, I didn't grieve or regret damage I may have done to a friendship, I just calmly said my piece and left her to chew the cud.

So this is positive news, yes?

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 Post subject: Re: People you don't respect
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:08 pm 
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Oh and Ash, yeah the "park your car in a bad neighbourhood" analogy applies well here. I am also getting a bit tired of hearing how my neighbourhood isn't safe. Where M lives you probably can quite safely leave your handbag on your car seat because she has a garage, but this is a city of 4 million people and I've never had my window broken, probably bc I haven't left any temptation to potential unscrupulous passers by.

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