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 Post subject: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:38 am 
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I don't think I actually WANT to get better.
I don't believe that these tools will help ME. I don't believe that I should ever live a healthy, happy life - how selfish of me to want to be happy after all that I have done? What about my many victims? Don't they deserve to see me punished?
I don't see myself ever "rewarding" myself with a manicure or a bubble bath - that's just not me! I want to eat and drink and shop! I want instant gratification. I don't want rules and restrictions. I want free, open, everything goes relationships. I do not want to take any more victims, though. So I just won't let anyone get too close! I will continue to have what I call "shallow, meaningless" relationships with people. I am not meant for a romantic relationship at all. There will be no more of those.
I don't believe that anyone is ever really "free" of their BPD. I believe you can learn how to act differently and respect rules and boundaries of society but your borderline thoughts and impulses will always be there with you. I will never be free of this intense pull I have toward strong, smart, independent women who I idolize. I will always feel that pull to attach to them. I don't have to make them my victims anymore - I can back away once I feel the pull - but that is something I will always have to battle. It will never go away. I will just have to learn how to "manage" it.
When I am feeling down on myself because I have done something terrible and caused another person emotional harm, I want to isolate myself and punish myself. People tell me to reach out to others in those times, do something good for myself, basically distract myself from the pain I feel. But is that really what we should always do? Isn't that just denying ourselves of really ever FEELING? Right now I feel terrible because I have hurt two people I felt very close to. The "healthy" thing to do would be to distract myself from my self-loathing right? Go do something that makes me happy, right? But then I am just pushing away those bad feelings and not allowing myself to learn from the experience. I am denying myself the true experience of suffering the consequences of my actions. Right? I did some really freaking terrible stuff to these people. Shouldn't I be made to suffer for it? Why shouldn't I feel down on myself? Is it fair to them if I go out and treat myself to something nice after what I have done? R loved me and knew that I loved him. He confessed to fucking up. He said he wanted to change. I TOOK HIM BACK thus sending him the message that I forgave him. Then I just out of the blue threw it all in his face and insulted him. My friend was impatient with me beyond understanding. Beyond anything she probably thought she was ever capable of. She was supportive, she gave me great advice, she was helpful and funny and so freaking smart. But the minute she tried to set any kind of boundaries, I flipped on her. I over-used and overwhelmed her. She was telling me how to get better but I obviously did not want to. I was clinging to my BPD with a death grip. WHY? Because I don't believe in helping myself. Oh, but I have tried. I have started and stopped many "self-improvement projects." Sobriety, weight loss, recovery from BPD. Nothing ever sticks. Because what's the point? To make me a better person? To make me feel better about myself? The only thing that really makes me feel good about myself is doing good for others. I don't give a shit about ME. What does it matter who I am? If I am happy? I am a lonely, miserable, psychotic stalker. Maybe that's just the way it is supposed to be.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:45 am 
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Sorry about that post. I was in a bad place mentally and should not have written it.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:53 pm 
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Chai,

My favorite part about this website is that a lot of the time I will find posts that I could have written. Not necessarily the same situation, but the thoughts and feelings about myself and my BPD. When I read something and identify some part of myself I feel encouraged because someone else understands how I feel or have felt. I appreciate your honesty.

I have done lots of things I regret and that were more than inappropriate. I have damaged relationships because I made poor choices in how I handled myself. I have failed to respect the rights and boundaries of others. I am a far from perfect person, but I am by no means a bad one. I am in progress, I make mistakes, I learn.

BPD may not go away but management becomes habit and life has some great things to enjoy. It is worth it. When I have diligently managed my BPD, I have been able to have closer relationships, almost no self harming and pretty long stretches of time without incident. Just because I made mistakes doesn't mean I cant again.

You fu*ked up, it happens. Just don't give up.

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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:36 am 
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Thanks for your response, KT, but I am going to leave BPDR for a while.
Take care,
Chai


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:05 pm 
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Chai wrote:
People tell me to reach out to others in those times, do something good for myself, basically distract myself from the pain I feel. But is that really what we should always do? Isn't that just denying ourselves of really ever FEELING? Right now I feel terrible because I have hurt two people I felt very close to. The "healthy" thing to do would be to distract myself from my self-loathing right? Go do something that makes me happy, right? But then I am just pushing away those bad feelings and not allowing myself to learn from the experience. I am denying myself the true experience of suffering the consequences of my actions. Right?


I personally think that everyone uses some distraction and/or (temporary) denial to deal with bad feelings ... to slow down the experience of bad feelings, precisely in order to process them.

That doesn't mean trying to avoid them forever (like someone with a really bad street drug habit might) ... it means slowing down the experience to a manageable pace by still taking care of oneself, still doing some good things for oneself, distraction, etc.


I think the other piece of it is that choosing the path of intense self-loathing, instead of a more paced way of processing things, is itself really a distraction mechanism, rather than real contrition or an appropriate way of trying to change.

Intense self-loathing can look like "accepting the consequences" for one's actions, etc. but notice something odd ... it doesn't actually lead to real growth, to making amends, to anything like that?


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:03 pm 
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Thanks, Auspicious, but I am stepping away from BPDR for a while. It just doesn't feel right for me to be here. I am a "threat" to the community and I keep repeating the same patterns and I don't deserve to be here.
Chai


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:34 pm 
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Come back when you're ready. :comfort

You do deserve recovery and not to be in so much pain, and I hope you can see that!

Lirael

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"All the world is full of suffering. It is also full of overcoming." - Helen Keller


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:54 pm 
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I'm not sure if you are still here or not, but I wanted to ditto what ktk said:

Quote:
Quote:
My favorite part about this website is that a lot of the time I will find posts that I could have written. Not necessarily the same situation, but the thoughts and feelings about myself and my BPD. When I read something and identify some part of myself I feel encouraged because someone else understands how I feel or have felt. I appreciate your honesty.


..Couldn't have said it better myself... Sometimes I think we focus too much on the skills and not enough on the initial feelings. There is an appropriate place (like here) and time to vent those toxic feelings. AND THEN, once vented then to use the skills. I think you are right that no one is ever "cured" (although I know there are dissenting opinions about that, but this is just my persepctive) however, what I do know is that even though I will always have to manage the bpd traits, in the last five years because of using the skills, I control the bpd better, rather than the bpd controlling me. In my life, that has made a huge difference.

Like right now, I'm battling the demons of depression and let me tell you, they are trying damn hard to destroy me. And yes, let's be blunt, it sucks to know that every winter I'm probably going to get depressed. At least now I have a better idea how to cope with the feelings. Don't get me wrong the depression feelings: the feelings of wanting to punish myself, the desire to start cutting and not stopping, the feeling that I just want to go to bed and never wake up, those feelings are all there and strong but instead of staying in bed, I went ice skating. Because I know that in the long run, doing stuff like that will help me get out of the depression faster, even though it doesn't feel like it when I'm going through it.

One of the hardest lessons I have learned is the lesson of loving mself, even and especially when I feel like I dont deserve it. But I do deserve it and so do you, regardless of the things you have done in your past.

(hugs)

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"I can lose my hard-earned freedom if my fear defines my world. I declare my independence from the critics and the stones. I declare my revolution, I can learn to stand alone."


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:11 pm 
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I just can't grasp these concepts or apply the tools to my life. I joined the online DBT class too and I read and re-read the lesson on Wise Mind and I understand the idea behind it but I couldn't figure out how to use it in my own life. I wanted to apply it to my situation with my ex. I want to stop thinking about him and obsessing over him and that situation. I want to be able to walk away from him for good but I just can't seem to help myself. I feel like a lost cause. I don't really see how I will ever be any better because I don't know how to "do the work." I have been immensely depressed all day - crying and sleeping all day today. I think it's because I have taken away all my self-destructive coping mechanisms - I re-committed myself to sobriety and I re-joined Weight Watchers yesterday and I absolutely refuse to allow myself to cut myself anymore. And I am trying not to reach out to the two people who recently left me. So as I expected, now that my distractions have been taken away, I am finally experiencing the deep depression I have kept buried. I just don't think there is any point in me being here if I can't do what I am supposed to do and if I pose a threat to the members of this community. But thanks for caring.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:26 pm 
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I wonder if maybe you don't want it badly enough. Maybe there are, right now, other things you want more than recovery.

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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:22 pm 
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Belief is what you have in something that there's no evidence of, and faith is something you have when you've seen the evidence.

There's a lot of evidence here. So have faith my dear.

Re: your ex: have you considered Codependents Anonymous? It helps to recognise an addiction when it exists, and addictions require extra strength to overcome.

It is hard to let go of old destructive habits. But the question that I keep asking myself with them is: "What are the gains from this behaviour?". When it comes to obsession/codependence/addiction (which I think are all in the same bucket) what is required is an attitudinal shift where you allow yourself all that the world has to offer. While you remain stuck, you inhibit yourself. I'm not saying this is easy, hell no! I HATE letting go of my obsessions, bc I fear my own success and in fact it seems I fear the ultimate intimacy I can have with people when I am without these codependent traits. Intimacy cannot happen in a codependent state. Obsession is codependent. But it's a strange thing, that I obsess bc I simultaneously crave and fear intimacy. And I can't have both can I?

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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:32 pm 
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And another thing (once I get started....)

I think that you telling us you'll leave BPDR bc you're destructive to the community is just sabotage. If you think we haven't seen this before, you're wrong! This is BPD for you luv. So leave, and you know what? You are entirely capable of self-destruction, you can have faith in that bc you've proven it in your past behaviours (BPD behaviours). So you can relinquish your aim for recovery by leaving a community who supports you, who is right there with you through your doubts, all because you're telling yourself some lie that you are destructive to us.

What makes you responsible for us? Aren't we capable of being responsible for ourselves? Well, I'm telling you that we are, and must be responsible for ourselves in order to recover. So drop the sabotage and the lies. Just BE responsible by trying, persevering, and having faith that it will pay off. Haven't you ever worked at something to find you can't see the progress for quite some time? Have you ever learned to play tennis, or roller skate, or drive? Could you do it straight away? Could you do it properly after 2 weeks? Wasn't is just a constant incline of improvement, with plateaus and leaps? That's what recovery is like. Have faith bc the evidence is all around you. If you choose to ignore it then that's your choice, one that you are responsible for. But let us and the "community" be responsible for itself, and you are indeed a part of that community. If you want to be a responsible community member, then taking responsibility for you is ALL you can ever do.

It's not easy, but please consider that you're sabotaging yourself and just proving to yourself once again that you're hopeless - which you're not.

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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:02 pm 
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Giving in to depression isn't really letting yourself feel the feelings ... it's just another form of avoiding them with a version of self-harm.

Sneakily disguised as letting yourself feel the feelings.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:05 pm 
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I want to hear from Ash on this. I really think I should leave but will not make a final decision without her input.


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:24 pm 
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I think it is understandable you want to hear from Ash about this. I also think it is helpful to go back and really take a look at the function of this site: in my understanding, it is an online support group, where yes, we focus on the skills as much as possible, but that doesn't negate the fact that sometimes maybe making progress is just too much. Maybe it is enough to just keep breathing....or to take a baby step here or there if you can. The forum isn't just about the shiny achievements, it is also about the venting of our emotions and the dealing with our inner demons, whatever form those demons take. It is about being surrounded by people who may or may not be in the exact situation that you are in but there are similiarities because everyone here (as far as I know anyway) had the diagnosis of bpd. To me, that doesn't mean it is hopeless. It just means it is damn hard sometimes. And when those times are tough, isn't that when you need a supportive and validating environment? And isn't that one of the goals of this forum. Yes, you have to take responsibility for your own life, but that doesn't mean there aren't times when one feels lost, feels agony, feels pain. And sometimes, we do just need a shoulder to cry on.

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"I can lose my hard-earned freedom if my fear defines my world. I declare my independence from the critics and the stones. I declare my revolution, I can learn to stand alone."


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:44 am 
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Thanks, Pip... but I am not sure if this place can still be a supportive and validating environment for me after what has happened between me and a former member. That's why I am seeking guidance from Ash and/or other SCLs involved in that situation.
Chai


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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:50 pm 
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I apologize for coming in late to this thread. This is crunch time at work for me and I've been working some pretty brutal hours lately so non-RL things have been slipping by me. At this point, I don't have the bandwidth to be able to read through the entire thread, I'm afraid, so I apologize in advance if I miss some of the points raised earlier or reiterate things already covered.

----------------------------

I don't think you need to leave and at the same time I don't think you're getting much benefit from being here right now. It sounds to me like you could benefit from an anti-depressant that works for you along with some CBT-oriented therapy. Until you get your brain chemistry straightened out to a point where you're not ping-ponging back and forth between the obsessive side and the "woe is me" side, all the tools in the world won't do you much good.

You've said you don't believe you can overcome BPD. THOUGHTS are THINGS. Whatever you believe to be true will become true. If you really believe you are the one human being in all of recorded history that is utterly incapable of learning, growing and changing, so be it. WE believe you can learn, grow and change but our beliefs in your potential alone will not bring about your recovery. YOU need to believe in yourself first and foremost. Until you're able to put up a fight against your internal negative self-talk, nothing the rest of the world says to you will have a chance of getting through to your Genuine Self.

I certainly hope you're not suggesting that this (your continued participation here) is out of your hands. You have not been asked to leave so if you want to stay and are ready to commit to your journey of recovery, you are welcome to stay.

Quote:
I am not sure if this place can still be a supportive and validating environment for me after what has happened between me and a former member. That's why I am seeking guidance from Ash and/or other SCLs involved in that situation.

Just as with anyone else, when there is healthy, recovery-oriented behaviour to be validated, it will be validated. Of late, however, there have been fewer and fewer instances of that sort of behaviour from you. We do not control your behaviour so you cannot expect us (or me specifically) to promise you support and validation for behaviours that are unhealthy. "Support without a recovery focus is simply enabling." We don't do enabling around here. You know that.

Whatever you decide to do, Chai, the decision is, will be and always has been yours to make. My best wishes to you no matter what you decide.

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 Post subject: Re: I am not a believer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:16 pm 
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Thank you, Ash. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I will call the psychiatrist I used to see about getting back on an anti-depressant and discuss using more CBT-oriented methods with my therapist. I also just re-committed to the Women For Sobriety program and their acceptance statements are aimed at changing one's thinking/beliefs about self to be more positive, so maybe that will help me change my frame of mind. Right now, I think I just need a break from this place. I won't deactivate my account and will come back when the pain associated with what happened here has subsided. Thanks for being so understanding.
Chai


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