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 Post subject: The invalidation lens
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:48 am 
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I have a friend who has a 5 year old son who is an extremely sensitive child. Almost everything I say to him hurts him in some way. He says: "I'm scary" and I say "Oh yes, you're very scary!", then he mopes and whines "But I'm not horrible scary" and I say "Oh no, Not horrible scary! You're a lovely boy!" and he sobs "No. I'm scary!".

I've been thinking about him and it seems to me that he has an enormous need for validation. In nearly everything anyone says, except pure, immediate praise for his actions, he detects some form of invalidation.

But this post isn't about him. It's an open discussion about detecting invalidation where it's not there.

Throughout my recovery I've met a lot of people at various stages of recovery, who have helped me to understand that what I "hear" is not necessarily being said. What I hear my well be what is being said inside my own head, not what someone else is saying to me at all. There was a time in my life when if someone said "You look lovely in full skirts" I'd have taken it to mean I look shit in straight skirts. God it must've been exhausting for people around me, just as it's exhausting to be with my friend's son.

Throughout my recovery, which I feel I have a pretty good handle on now (as recent as this has been), many people have told me things about myself that are true. Not all of them have been particularly pleasant things to hear, and I spent a shitload of energy and time trying to defend myself against their claims, bc of my predisposed platform of invalidation, rather than hearing that there were significant keys to my emotional health and overall happiness n what they were saying. I think I spent a good 12-14 years not listening completely to my T bc I was so busy trying to counter what I perceived to be his invalidation of me.

Things have changed. Today I had therapy and my T was pointing out subtle things in my explanations of my thoughts and behaviour that were, well, flawed/unhelpful etc. Recently I've made a leap to just listening to the advice rather than operating from a defensive, self-validating place. And I find it's all sooooooo much more helpful to my life, and to the way I feel about the benefit of my therapy.

It's interesting bc this change in me didn't happen through a linear process. I knew for a long time that my default position was victim and the invalidated. I knew for a long time that my knee-jerk thoughts were off centre. But I couldn't find the internal validation first. I had to try a leap of faith, that what everyone was saying to me wasn't personal. It's in the Four Agreements.

And what I discovered, by just trying it, was that it wasn't actually personal at all. It was, on many occasions, so much more helpful for me to listen without internal judgment.

Somewhere along the line a whole bunch of people (I went to AA) began saying that they were the same as each other, and that they all had a 'disease' of rising to resistance and even arrogance as a way of overcoming their deep-seeded fear of invalidation. Ironically, by identifying with this characteristic more than the alcoholism, it validated my experience of being an incredibly insecure person, and showed me that indeed I do close my ears to the good stuff because of my internal message that it was bad stuff. It's been an enormous, incredibly enormous help to me. I just can't emphasis enough how much this has completely changed my perspective and allowed me to apply all the knowledge I've acquired throughout my recovery process.

So...this isn't meant to be an "oh good on you" kind of thread with pats on my back. I was wondering if by simply saying:

– I know that I am a person whose default position is one of self-recrimination, who sees external recrimination and invalidation through those lenses. I know that my default position is to resist based on a feeling of perpetual invalidation.– ,

would be something that people can identify with here. And maybe, if a discussion of this would help people feel, the way I have, validated by seeing that they aren't alone. It's not just a borderline quality, it's the quality of someone with a degree of self doubt.

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 Post subject: Re: The invalidation lens
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:43 am 
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Wow, Sarah, what a tremendous post. I have had my own version of taking in the world through a lens of insecurity and self-recrimination. Tell me I'm great and I'll assume you're at least exaggerating, and tell me I suck and boy will I ever believe you. I suppose this is getting better for me with time and effort -- ten years ago you could smell this attitude on me and now it is much harder for people to detect -- but it's still there. jim

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 Post subject: Re: The invalidation lens
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:45 pm 
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I agree with Jim -- great post, Sarah. [clap clap]

Gaining not only the ability, but also the willingness, to be introspective and honest about one's character, the negatives as well as the positives, is so key to recovery.

As to invalidation, and learning to figure out when it's really there or not there, it's been a long journey for me as well. My mother was very inconsistent in her parenting of me -- one moment she'd be praising me, the next, criticizing me, the next, just basically blowing me off as if my feelings were totally immaterial to her. It became very difficult for me to evaluate how someone really felt about me -- I didn't trust anybody to understand, gradually grew into a more and more negative self-assessment, and as a result was likely to feel invalidated (and hurt, or angry) by the slightest thing. I think I was probably more sensitive than the average child as well -- I have 2 siblings who grew up with the same parents, all 3 of us close in age, and they didn't end up with the same tendency to feeling invalidated all the time.

It's a journey to learn how to honestly assess a situation, or the feelings, thoughts or actions of anybody else as well as ourselves. Even the healthiest, most balanced child growing up in the most ideal family still must learn to evaluate the nuances of reactions from others -- what's positive, what's negative, what's teasing, what needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I think the more sensitive the innate make-up of the child, the harder it is for him or her. And until we get a handle on that kind of constant evaluation, of ourselves as well as others, life can be a real struggle.

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 Post subject: Re: The invalidation lens
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:11 am 
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That really was a great post. I do this...all the time. I am always hearing the negative behind the positive thing someone might be saying. I am always hearing what 'isn't' being said but to me, it's what is really being said...but like you said it's all my own internal judgments. Sorry if that was confusing.

I hope to be able to come to terms with this and other things like you have. I am so happy to hear that you are making progress. It's so hard and every accomplishment is so important and crucial.


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 Post subject: Re: The invalidation lens
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:40 am 
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As for me, I think I am finally finally learning to validate my own feelings, validate myself in the sense that I acknowledge how I feel - no matter how absurd or inproportionate they are to the situation... And that has made me feel better during times of pain...

As for invalidation, I have a mentor who really cared for me, who would give me really good advice on stuff... Yet, each time, I would get angry on the inside whenever she gave advice... I felt as if she was not listening to me, I felt invalidated...

Is it just my own feelings, or as you said, "internal judgements" that I was being invalidated, when my mentor was actually not invalidating me?

I'm confused by this invalidation stuff...


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 Post subject: Re: The invalidation lens
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Hi Meremortal.

Meremortal wrote:
Is it just my own feelings, or as you said, "internal judgements" that I was being invalidated, when my mentor was actually not invalidating me?


Well yes. It's difficult to pry apart but the way I see it, the Agreement about not taking anything personally is about seeing that what other people do and say is all about them and not us. So if your mentor gives advice and appears not to be listening, it's helpful for you to see that she is (as Ruiz puts it in the Four Agreements) living her own "dream". For your mentor, giving advice may make her feel helpful and therefore validate herself (just an example bc I don't know what's going on in her head). But that's her stuff. Not necessarily "stuff"; as in "issues"....but that's about her, not you. So it would be helpful to appreciate that she has her limitations/qualities/stuff that is not making any statement about you, but about her.

But yes, I also think that we personalise these things bc we are seeking external validation bc internal validation isn't a default position for us. Once we get that internal validation happening, and separate our stuff from others' stuff (ie: what another person chooses to do and say is about them, not us) we are able to objectively listen to them. In your case, by seeing that your mentor giving advice and perhaps not listening isn't saying that you aren't worth listening to, but she's saying she wants to speak more than listen bc of who she is, then you are more likely to be able to listen to her. And in what she says you may learn something.

An example from my life, I have a friend, my neighbour, who, I consulted about something I was struggling with, and she totally lost her patience with me. She'll said things like "Oh Sarah, this is giving me the shits. You're being an idiot, get yourself under control. You know what to do so just do it and stop whinging about it." It was pretty intense and really invalidating of the difficulty I personally have with the issue I raised. But as she was carrying on like this, I kept telling myself that her reaction had nothing to do with me. Her impatience was not as a result of endless hours of self-pity and pathetic victimisation bc I hadn't done that. She just has her stuff surrounding people who are struggling. By pulling myself back from the potential perception that her impatience was an invalidation of me, and seeing that it was about who she is, I was able to listen to the content of her really quite angry statements. Yes, I did know what to do, yes I was being a bit pathetic, and I was actually looking for the honest direction she gave me, which was to pull my finger out, stop looking for external answers to internal problems, and put some actions into place which would nurture and assist my condition at the time. She was very apologetic about losing her temper with me, and I really didn't mind, bc I didn't take any of it personally. But I did get something out of what she said, took her advice and it helped.

People listening to you is important though. The people I treasure the most are those who I feel really hear me. Not everyone can do it, so I have to accept that everyone is limited in some way, and that's got nothing to do with me. Self-validation is kind of lonely sometimes, but very empowering IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: The invalidation lens
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:23 am 
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Sarah,
thanks a lot for your reply, your explanation is very clear, thanks!

I guess I'm still having difficulty in the area whereby if my mentor doesn't listen to me, it's about her and not about me.

Especially if she doesn't respond to me, I always, always feel it's about me not being acceptable in her eyes...

But I get what you're saying.


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 Post subject: Re: The invalidation lens
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:20 am 
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Sarah wrote:

But yes, I also think that we personalise these things bc we are seeking external validation bc internal validation isn't a default position for us. .


Yesterday I sent an email to two mentors and a very good friend, updating them on my recovery process. And I found myself wondering if they will reply, it's like I'm looking for external validation and evidence that they care for me, found myself feeling a little down thinking about how maybe they won't reply coz they don't really care for me...

It was then that I realise I have a huge need for external validation. It's like I keep looking for external evidence that someone cares for me, and without that (the evidence that someone cares for me), it's like my self-worth is less or something...
How do I learn to internally validate myself, since it's not a default position for us bpds?


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 Post subject: Re: The invalidation lens
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:09 am 
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The friend replied, but the two mentors didn't reply.

Felt (still feeling) as if they don't care, hence they didn't reply.
Guess that's black and white thinking isn't it?
they care = they reply
they don't care = they don't reply

Maybe it's their stuff. Maybe they didn't reply coz they didn't know what to say, maybe they are too drained with their all the stuff going on in their lives, maybe maybe maybe.


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 Post subject: Re: The invalidation lens
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:45 pm 
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Quote:
How do I learn to internally validate myself, since it's not a default position for us bpds?


I think you made great steps in answering this yourself: you identified your black and white thinking, and looked at other reasons why they may not have replied.

And yeah, those reasons are all maybes, but all the maybes tell us that we can never know what's happening in another person's head if they don't honestly tell us. It's very easy for people like us, who don't internally validate automatically, to absolutely jump to the assumption that they've not replied (in your example) bc of us somehow. Looking at the maybes shows us that there are so many possibilities outside of the conclusion we've jumped to. Have you ever noticed that you'll jump to a personalised conclusion (eg: she hates me/thinks what I said is rubbish etc) to later discover that they had an emergency, or their internet was down, or they were on holiday... I know i have and you know what? I feel so foolish when this happens, and that feeling leads to shame and further self-recrimination and invalidation.

So the steps to take are using the tools over and over until it becomes more of an automatic process to check yourself for twisted thinking and personalising in the moment.

Another important key is to practise internal validation. So not only do we need to stop seeking external validation (which is the personalisation stuff in all of the above), but we need to find the validation somewhere and the only other place to look is within. Eg: while you're awaiting these replies, while you're taking steps to identify your twisted thinking, try to also tell yourself that you're ok. Rarely do I do things that really are not ok by me. If I'm the one judging, if I think about my ethics and morals and how I'd judge another in my shoes, I find that what I've done is fine. Is right. Is totally not that bad, even when it isn't as good as I'd like. The important aspect of this process is learning to recognise that you can be the judge of your own actions, and that you have your own standards about behaviour etc which don't involve self-flagellation. We've all been in a situation where we've heard about someone's actions and thought "Oh know, that's just wrong". These thoughts are who we really are. It's where our boundaries come from. It's our authentic self. When I step into the shoes of my authentic self I find I like myself a lot more than I did when all I do is criticise.

Anyway, sorry to ramble, but I just think it's really important to learn to be your own judge. That doesn't mean being judgmental, but more that what you think of yourself is far more important than what anyone else thinks.

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