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 Post subject: Disassociation, Rage and Self harm
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:02 pm 
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This is something i wrote on another webboard, I was wondering if anyone could relate to it:

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Oh my god, reading this, I think I dissociate!
I sometimes get these very sudden urges to self harm which seem to have nothing to do with my normal thought processes, then after I have trouble remembering. Its not like I can't remember at all: if I thought hard about it or if someone reminded me it would come to mind. More like my mind puts up a sort of screen or wants to look the other way. In fact, just yesterday I was asked by a doctor is this distresses me and I had to say no, because in all honesty its packed in its own little box affecting nothing else.
I have some control over these urges and can mostly keep it to when I'm alone, so I too have struggled to understand the nature of the mental state: like I'm in control but I'm not.


Someone else suggested that when someone is caught up with emotions that a very strong and uncontrollable, that can cause dissasociation and then the dissasociative state can prevent you from regaining control. This sort of makes sense to me.

I was wondering if anyone else can relate


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 Post subject: Re: Disassociation, Rage and Self harm
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:44 am 
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it sounds a lot like dissociating to me and i think i relate to it to an extent. I think i only dissociated in full context a number of times. My feelings were like an out of body experience. But, for me, my disociating is only triggered when i go into emotional overload. It doesnt come about without reason. However, I am aware this does happen, and sometimes the reasons for it happening can be as simple as a loud bang in the background. Back when i was really unwell, I dissociated and then without me much thinking about it and I self Harmed one time Emotionally I was tuned out and turned off. Similar to you, i have no understanding about what was going on in my head and i had no control over it. It was like someone took over me, or i was flying on autopilot. The problem i also have is that even though i recall what i did, I simply dont relate to the emotions i was feeling at the time. Its hard trying to explain it, even harder for me to grasp understanding it myself - and i was the one fully experiencing it!

I've never been able to recognise when i go into a dissociative state, let alone how to pull myself out of it. I've been told to use grounding techniques, but for me i dont even know when i'm dissociating until its done, let alone pluck a random grounding technique out of my head. Have you tried mindfullness techniques at all? These may help. not that i know.


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 Post subject: Re: Disassociation, Rage and Self harm
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:16 pm 
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Quote:
even though i recall what i did, I simply dont relate to the emotions i was feeling at the time.


Yes! This is it exactly.

Grounding techniques? Possibly. My partner has sometimes talked me through some. I used to come out of therapy all confused an spacy and he would make me describe our surroundings or play word games all the way home (I feel very warm towards him remembering this :) )

Confession time: I have never made any effort to ground myself. Ever. I think part of the problem is that when this happens I am really a bit of a nihilist. I hate myself and I don't want to back away from that hate. I want to feel it because I deserve to and I want to hurt myself as much as I can.

Writing this now: its just like you say: I don't relate to those ugly emotions at all but at the time....it seems totally self evident


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 Post subject: Re: Disassociation, Rage and Self harm
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:07 am 
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I wrote this huge response to you, went to post it but was timed out!! So unbelievably freakin frustrating!

I completely relate to that feeling of self loathing and self hatred. However, rather than act out, i generally imagine hurting myself. Like i call myslelf names, beat myself up, shred myself to peices anything i can think of to hurt myself imaginatively.. Once the feeling passes and it does, i can then start thinking objectively. I dont engage in the act of self harm because i have made a contract I will not do it, which i take very seriously.

Your post is a difficult one and i really had to think about it. The act of self harming, like cutting, is actually a way of releasing endorphines in the body. It is similar to taking a pain killer and is just as addictive. It is actually considered an addiction in its own right. So this is really dangerous territory.

One thing you may benefit from is Distraction techniques when the self hatred comes along. It could also prevent the dissociating as well. Self -harm Distraction techniques can be employed when you need to redirect your mind away from hurting yourself. Even though you have the compulsion to do it. Although, much like any other addiction, it could be hard to get off the drug. An excellent user friendly DBT workbook i have suggests that if you need a "rush", rather than self harm, you could squeeze ice in your hands for a few minues, scream, stick pins in a voodoo doll and pretend it is you, if you need to see blood, you could get a red ink marker and draw it on the part of the body you want to "Cut". Or you can do what i do and cry. This releases natural endorphines too and it makes you drowsy. I can sometimes sleep like a log afterwards. The ultimate distraction technique! But, the main thing is, you come out scar free and entirely unharmed. Not sure sure about the ice though, it can burn a bit. But it is probably good for "Feeling" pain.

Other distraction techniques are anything else that distracts your mind and redirects the pain in a physical sense. You could do your chores, watch a funny, listen to upbeat happy music, play with your pet, take a cold shower,count backwards from 1000. Anything where you DO something else, other than be trapped in your emotions.

Grounding techniques on the other hand are basically mindfulness. It is much harder to master this as it takes practice. One grounding technique i was taught is to stand up with bare feet, bend your knees slightly and dig your feet into the ground. Imagine they have roots growing out of them and breathe into it. Do this until the feeling passes. I find grounding techniques harder to use when i'm distressed than pulling out a comedy DVD and watching it or listening to my Happy music.
In any case, you may want to discuss your self harming with your T. Do you have one? Do you do DBT classes?


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 Post subject: Re: Disassociation, Rage and Self harm
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:31 am 
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Quote:
I wrote this huge response to you, went to post it but was timed out!! So unbelievably freakin frustrating!


How annoying, I hate that!

Thanks so much for replying though, I really appreciate you putting in the time and effort to help a stranger understand herself :)

Quote:
I completely relate to that feeling of self loathing and self hatred. However, rather than act out, i generally imagine hurting myself. Like i call myslelf names, beat myself up, shred myself to peices anything i can think of to hurt myself imaginatively..


This is an interesting idea and not one i've thought of. I will give it a go

Thanks for explaining the difference between distraction techniques and grounding techniques. I hadn't appreciated the distinction. Makes more sence now. I can see how distraction is easier to master than grounding.

I don't have a therapist at the moment. I paid for a few private sessions last year but didn't get as far as explaining about the self harm, although I did find myslef opening up much more to my partner about it and remembering some stuff that helped me to understand why it might be happening.

I stopped going because I found the self examination hard work (I once got so distressed by the thought of having to talk about "THE PAST" that I accidentally walked three miles out of my way and missed the session!) and I landed a new high pressure job. I felt i couldn't cope with the job and the therapy. Now i am paying for that decision because I am beside myself with work related anxiety and no coping methods to speak of other than self harm (DOH!)

I've just recently been referred to some guided self help in CBT through the National Health Service and I see my CBT practicioner for the first time on Monday. I was honest about the self harm in the telephone assessment so i'm expecting it to come up. My fear is that the self harm points to something seriously awry, expecially as it seems to come along with dysregulation and dissociation and to generally be triggered by real or percieved rejection.

I hope the CBT practicioner is able to pick up on it and point me towards a diagnosis. Trawling the internet leads me to strongly suspect I have BPD although i understand doctors just HATE it when people try and diagnose themselves so I haven't shared my fears with any medical person: just stated the symptoms.

Anyways thanks so much for replying and to all of you for being so patient and welcoming with me while i try to work myself out :) :) :)


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 Post subject: Re: Disassociation, Rage and Self harm
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:54 pm 
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I don’t mind helping you. In fact it is a pleasure, and believe it or not you are hontestly helping me deal with my stuff too. It has taken me years to pluck the courage up to respond to posts and get over the feeling of shyness and being percieved as a hypacrite (ie, being unwell but giving advice). I joined in 2006 and I’m still considered a “New Member” because I’ve only managed to post 64 times even though I log in regularly. Of recent times, I’ve actually discovered that helping others from a genuine standpoint is helping me too, in more ways than I could have realised. Anyway, thanks to your post, you have managed to give me further insights into me too, so thank you for that.
I have really had to think about responding to your post as I did not want to inadvertintly make things worse for you given your vulnerablity.
When I mentioned that I imagine hurting myself, this is something that immediately pops into my head when I’m triggered by an event. Its almost like an injet reaction for me, the borderline part of me. Something I cant control initially, but something I do eventually control to make the feelings pass. I really had to think about my mind process over the last few days before respondig to this post to understand my thoughts step- by- step, so I would be able to share them with you.
I realised that after thinking it through, while these thoughts enter my mind, I actually go about trying to avoid them or distract myself from them. I realised that what I do is actually have the bad thoughts enter my mind, but immediately when I catch myself in them, I challenge them in the opposite direction. So, if I say to myself that I’m a horrible ugly person for example, then I say to myself that it isnt true. People have told me that I’m attractive and that I have a good heart. For every bad thing I say to myself, I counteract it with a challenge thought. It isnt easy to do because some of the things I say are a part of my core beliefs, so it takes a lot of self talking. Something I’m trying to still perfect. It is probably a little difficult to understand, but I’m basically trying to make my thoughts more realistic. Maybe it’s my own way of untwisting.
As you mention that you like to indulge in your feelings of self hatred, I’m not sure that imagining things the way I do would be beneficial for you. The reason I say this is because what I realised is that when I was really unwell and these thoughts entered my mind without challenges, it is likely what drove me into the dissociative state because I was feeding it. Your thoughts can have a very powerful effect over your feelings, which in turn can create actions. Ours happens to be dissociation then self-harm, where there is no going back.
It is brilliant you are going to start CBT. If you are really serious about wanting to recover, do all the exercises they suggest. It is hard work, but with some persistence the rewards will pay off and you’ll feel like a new and better person, always improving.
Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Disassociation, Rage and Self harm
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:59 am 
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Cleopatra:

Once again, a really brilliant reply. Thanks so much :)

Quote:
When I mentioned that I imagine hurting myself, this is something that immediately pops into my head when I’m triggered by an event. Its almost like an injet reaction for me, the borderline part of me.


yes, this is exactly how it is for me as well.

Quote:
I realised that what I do is actually have the bad thoughts enter my mind, but immediately when I catch myself in them, I challenge them in the opposite direction.


This is good. I should learn to do this.

Quote:
when I was really unwell and these thoughts entered my mind without challenges, it is likely what drove me into the dissociative state because I was feeding it.


Again, this is exactly what happens with me.

Quote:
It is brilliant you are going to start CBT. If you are really serious about wanting to recover, do all the exercises they suggest. It is hard work, but with some persistence the rewards will pay off and you’ll feel like a new and better person


Thanks you, I will.
I went to the first appointment whihc was really just a chat and a risk assessment and I was a complete state: crying all over the place. Then I went to work and couldnt concentrate on anything or get anything done. This is because I was asked what i thought might have triggered my core beliefs of worthlessness and I always find it so hard to talk about.

The next appointment would have been today but becasue i have a busy day at work, i didn't think i would be able to cope with CBT on top of that so i go in again on Friday.

I am going to give it my best shot but i am a little bit scared. I bought a CBT book and read it cover to cover the other day and most of it is fine. But i don't like the idea of doing "experiments" because my most triggering thing is conflict.

The problem is that it doesn't matter how the conflict is resolved, even if an argument goes my way I am still very very triggered. So i really don't like the idea of perhaps being asked to stand up for myself as an "experiment" to prove it is not so bad because even if it went very well it would still cause me a lot of hurt.


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 Post subject: Re: Disassociation, Rage and Self harm
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Hey,

In my experience, when doing any kind of "experiment" in CBT you need to strike a balance. It is going to be challenging, but it needs to be at a level you can cope with. After all, the point is to help you feel better in the long run, not worse! In the example you gave, the aim would be to teach you that you can stand up for yourself successfully *and* you can cope with the way it makes you feel - not to give you a horrible experience that only reinforces your view that standing up for yourself is too triggery.

I think it would be a good idea to let your therapist know about your concerns, what triggers you, and how being triggered affects you. They might want to focus first on how you're going to cope if you feel triggered - CBT can actually help a lot with that. Then when/if you start to do experiments, you can take baby steps. Each step should challenge you / take you out of your comfort zone a little, not be so terrifying and upsetting that you have a complete meltdown and never go back. ;)

Lirael

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"All the world is full of suffering. It is also full of overcoming." - Helen Keller


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