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 Post subject: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:37 pm 
My therapist thinks I am very "all or nothing" when it comes to the rules/structure I have set for myself...

These are my rules:

1). No casual sex. I took a personal vow nearly 7 years ago, and I haven't broken it yet. I would be incredibly pissed at myself if I did now.

2). No drinking.

3). Tying into the no drinking thing, cutting ties with old drinking buddies with whom I share no common ground (other than booze).

4). No romantic relationships until I get my shit straightened out some more(she believes that I am self-protecting from hurt to the extreme, rather than strictly just taking care of myself).

The 4th, ok. Fine. She has a point, I am self-protecting. I have a ginormous chip on my shoulder right now. I have no desire to stab away at it, either.

I have been trying to figure out why she feels I am black/white on these issues. I have come up with this guess -

The reason I abstain from those things, IS because I get out of control when I partake in them. So it's like my own personal structured thing going on. If I break it, there's a chance I will get all wrapped up in things which I consider unhealthy. I would rather not. Casual sex and drinking both make me feel gross afterwards. And truly, they have been addictions for me. I feel it makes sense to abstain from unhealthy addiction.

I feel like I am missing something here...Could anyone shed some light on the situation? Perhaps there is a perspective that is just wooshing right over my head.


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:21 am 
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Sadly I will be absolutely no help at all on this one and I equally dont understand your T's point of view either. Not fully. I would be interested in others views on this. I am largely with you, mainly because I have similar stringent rules for similar reasons. Casual sex and Drinking cloud your judgement and can interfere with your ability to get better. - Its a Fact! esp. if you know that they are a potential addicition to you. They are actually in line with 12 steps which i do. Those programs are only successful because of their black and white rules. They have to be. I cant imagine a self proclaimed alcoholic being allowed to have grey rules. That being they are able to drink/binge at weekends, abstain from weekdays, then recover from that addiction. They have to abstain completely. I would be interested in clarifying what your T means by these being too black and white. Unless they are looking of course at your rules in a more overall context. I cant imagine your T would suggest you go around having casual sex or start binging at weekends. They may be speaking In terms of your self structuring. Unfortuantely, i only look at things in literal contexts. ie, if you show me a glass of water, all i can see is the glass. Someone has to point the water out to me.

With regard to your relationship one, this may be a little black and white. Its also a tricky one. I see exactly where you are coming from, although, i'm probably way of, but to an extent, if i could do things over, i'd probably have a similar rule. Frighteningly so. Largly because we are likely to attract to us that person who displays traits that re-ignight our traumers. Ideally, we would all enter into a healthy relationship from a healthy standpoint so that in all our relationships are healthy themselves so it is equal. But there has to also a balance within you too. Recovery takes many years for most people. Unless we look outside ourselves every now and then, we cant see what opportunities are around us and we cant grow because where inside our own little bubble. I do this a lot. But again, i'm seeing the rules as rules. I dont think this rule can change over night.

For the last hour, I have really tried to undersand your T's perspective and try and help you as i really genuinely want to. I think the fourth rule is much deeper than I can even begin to comprehend, so it is also difficult for me to get my head around it. It is also hard for me because i strongly relate to your rules, more for what they are rather then looking deep into their overall meaning. Perhaps it suggests that I too am more black and white thinking than i thought also and equally to obsessed with structure. Maybe the water needs to be pointed out to me.

There are some very helpful people on this forum, so hopefully they will have some insights on this. I'm just sorry i cant. What i will say is, good on you though for making decisions that serve to increase your chances of recovery and for knowing your own limitations. It takes some people decades to learn that, if at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:49 am 
I was thinking more about the 4th, and I do agree that it is that or that, black or white. Like right now, if I were to hop in a relationship, I would suck it dry for all it's worth, because I'm struggling right now. And I admit instead of being willing to work through any thing that comes up, I would probably just go run off. And I know that's a real bitch to put myself and another person through. So I feel like, if I don't desire a healthy relationship, I shouldn't attempt to have one for the time being. PLUS, I truly don't want to allow anyone close right now. I am walled-off to the idea.

But the other three, scratching my head here. I think you may be onto something when you say it may be in an overall context, that is my best guess. But I feel like...Different rules need to be put forth for addictive activities/behaviors. I have to say I still don't get it. I can't say that I structure other areas of my life this way, if I did then I think it might give me a lightbulb moment.

Thanks for the brainstorming session, cleo!


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:59 pm 
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. I see both your point of view and your therapist's. Maybe you could ask her to elaborate further in the hopes of pinpointing the specific areas of your behavior that she's referring to. Assuming and Guessing usually yield vaguely approximate results at best, and maybe your therapist is on a completely different page from you. It couldn't hurt to ask for clarification, just in case.

I've often felt that AA and NA were very black-and-white organizations, with strict rules that were "either/or". "Either/Or" is actually listed as a logical fallacy in Aristotle's philosophy, with good reason, because few things in life are so simple.

However, I believe that something can work for someone at a certain point in their lives, and then later become irrelevant or no longer applicable. If not drinking is working for you right now, by all means, soldier on. Why try to fix something that's not broken?

On the other hand, if your rigid thinking is leaking into other parts of your life where it's causing severe problems, then perhaps those particular areas need to be addressed.

For example, I do not smoke. Ever. I'm very firm about this fact. However, I recognize that by standing firm in this regard, I could easily fall prey to the notion of "Oh, I've had one cigarette - now it's over!!"

I'm cautious to avoid black-and-white thinking in its most extreme form; even so, I'm not allowing myself to smoke because I feel that nothing truly good could come of it in the short-term. Just a nasty feeling, a gross smell and a feeling of guilt and anxiety. Ew.

If it happened, I would accept it, feel the nasty feelings, process the experience, and avoid doing further damage.

Thoughtfulness above all. These are just my thoughts. Maybe they'll help, maybe not. Either way, I hope you're doing well.

Best to you,
Sunflower


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:06 pm 
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P.S. While recovering from my most extreme forms of black-and-white thinking, I, too, erred on the side of caution and didn't drink, use drugs, have sex OR relationships.

Instead, I finished college, internships, worked steadily towards my goals and bettered myself.

Perhaps your therapist has your best interests at heart, but is rushing you a bit. However, I don't know you or your therapist. I can't say for sure. In fact, not a one of us can ever really say anything for sure.

Thoughtfulness with the goal of functionality needs to come first, though. If it's working, let sleeping dogs lie. When it no longer works, begin re-evaluating.

Just wanted to add that after reflecting on your post a little further.


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:10 am 
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Hi :) I guess I can understand why she may feel as though you are very black and white. It may not be the topic itself that she is concerned about but maybe just your overall take it or leave it way of things. HOWEVER, I agree with you. I think the things that you chose this type of boundary on are such healthy things. I think it is great that you know who you are and what you struggle with and have therefore set boundaries for yourself!!! That is something to be proud of in my book. Her opinion about the 4th one may be true but only you know that. I think that some therapists are very intelligent and skilled at what they do but that doesn't mean they are always right. If you feel as though she or he is wrong here, that is ok! You are both entitled to your opinions and this is something you both should accept. Again, for the record, I think you should be proud of yourself for recognizing those weaknesses and creating boundaries for yourself. No casual sex and no drinking are both such healthy things for anyone. I for one am proud of you for these things!


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:32 pm 
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"All things in moderation."

It's one thing to be a diabetic and never set foot in a candy store. There's not really much temptation to overindulge in sugary treats. If you actually go to the bakery every few weeks to pick up fresh rolls or a birthday cake for a friend or get some specialty bread for a sandwich, you're actually exposing yourself to the temptation of those decadent pastries and cakes and cookies. Being diabetic doesn't mean NEVER eat ANYTHING with sugar. It means carefully monitor and control your blood sugar to maintain stability.

What your therapist is telling you is that you're avoiding all sources of temptation without learning how to do things in moderation (which is healthier.)

I may not have been an alcoholic but I sure thought I was. I got a DUI when I was 19. I had alcohol poisoning a couple of times in the late 80s. I would drink at every opportunity, in secret, with people, to excess, do stupid things, lose complete control. To me, that was alcoholism - I wasn't able to control my consumption. If I got near it, I chugged it. There was no such thing as a sip or two or a glass or two or a drink or two. It was "stay til the bar closed" or "drink til the bottle is empty."

After the DUI, I told myself "No more drinking - it's bad for me and I can't control it." That lasted about six months, if I recall correctly. After that, I realized I would forever be a prisoner to the all-or-nothing mentality if I stayed that course. I took the much harder step of trying to learn / teach myself how to drink in moderation. A glass of wine with dinner. A couple of cocktails with friends. Nothing to excess.

Today, I'm able to do that. There are times when I'll skip the wine with dinner, even if everyone else is having some. Not because I want to stay in an all-or-nothing mentality but because I just don't feel like it. Alcohol is no longer a crutch for me. It's no longer social lubrication. It's something I might enjoy tasting with a good meal. It might be fun to get a little buzz but I no longer have any interest in indulging to the point where I can't function the next day.

I'm not suggesting that you should go out and have random one-night stands just to prove a point. In fact, I think it's admirable that you want sex to mean something. That one may not necessarily be so much of a "black-and-white rule" so much as "this is part of my Genuine Self - I believe that sex should be meaningful and I do not believe in casual sex." You're not saying "NO SEX EVER" - you're actually engaging in moderation as far as sex is concerned. You'll enjoy it in a meaningful relationship but if it's offered outside of that, you'd rather pass. That, to me, is a healthy thing.

Saying "NO DRINKING EVER" isn't so much about moderation as the complete removal of temptation. It's "running from the room" rather than "okay, but just one." It's cutting off your legs so you don't run a marathon rather than keep the legs to walk around when you need to. It's learning to avoid the addiction rather than learning to overcome the addiction. You've gone around the mountain instead of climbing it to reach the other side.

Does that help any?

And for what it's worth, I do think you need to climb the mountain when you're ready. If you feel like being around those drinking buddies will lead you right back into the abyss, then you're not ready. You'll be ready when you feel like "Yeah, I can meet up with them even if I don't drink at all." In fact, I think you'll find that if you spend some time with them in a reasonably safe environment (at your house where there's a limit on the alcohol or even none at all except whatever they bring) you'll probably see them as the drunken fools they are which would likely help you climb the mountain. Witnessing the drunken stupidity while sober is one of the best teachers of moderation. You've spent so long being sober and avoiding all situations of alcohol that watching these people act like idiots would probably just serve to reinforce to you that addiction / drinking to excess is foolish, makes one look stupid, has nasty consequences, etc. If you slip and have a drink and slip some more and drink to excess, you'll know you weren't ready yet. But if you slip and have a drink and stop there to avoid becoming a drunken lush, you'll be halfway up the mountain already.

Please note - I do think you should discuss this further with your therapist to come up with some game plans. If you accept the Genuine Self thing about casual sex, I'm thinking the T will be cool with that. If you decide you want to climb the mountain at some point, maybe come up with "how, in what setting, what are your goals, will there be someone there to help keep you on-track, what might you do if you spiral out of control, what will you reward yourself with if you succeed in hanging out with people who drink, will you put a time limit on the evening, will you only bring a certain amount of cash, will you host the time to better control the situation, etc." I do NOT advise jumping into anything willy-nilly but I DO think you'll serve yourself better by learning to deal with the addictions rather than to simply avoid them.

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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:04 pm 
I've been meaning to update this! Thanks so much for all the insight.

My therapist summed it up as me not digging my heels in the ground regarding moderation(at least, when it comes to those particular things). She encouraged me to go out on a date, and have a small glass of wine/beer with my meal. A DATE, with BOOZE(the horror). Well, so, I thought...Why not?(after a lot of hemming and hawing) Perhaps she has a point here, and I won't know unless I test the waters. If I dislike it that much, I can simply not do it.

So I went out with a man I used to work with, we had a great dinner, I dutifully sampled the wine, had a few sips, and really didn't have a desire for it. In fact, it didn't taste as lovely as I'd remembered it to(though it was a red, who knows). Dinner was fantastic, though. It was great to get all prettified after slumping around in sweats for the last month or so, and having awesome conversation over delicious food. I can't say I'm interested in the guy or the wine, but it was an experience.

Would I do that again? A chance, the experience was nice. I can't see myself having a drink, though, wasn't feeling it. Also still standing by the sex thing(which she understands after my clarification). I feel good about it, though I must admit there's some guilt mingling in here, which we've been talking about. Guilt for 'breaking' one of my rules. I feel a little like a dog who was in the midst of a shit on the carpet when their owner walked in, like I let some invisible person down.


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:06 pm 
Oops, I meant DIGGING my heels in the ground.


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:47 am 
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It is great you implimented your T's suggestion. You had a crack at it and you learned from it. You should be giving credit to yourself as it was a really big step you took and challenged your comfort zone.

Your feelings of guilt are a bit of a concern though. You mentioned something about breaking your "rule". This seems to be a little bit of a rigid/twisted way of thinking and certianly very black and white without the shade of grey.

In order to try and deal with your feelings of guilt, it may help if you try to understand why you feel guilty about breaking the rule in the first place. For example is it something about loss of self-control or is something much deeper than that? If you can try and takle this problem, it may give you insight into the reason you feel guilty with breaking your rule, then give you some understanding as to how you may find a more happy balance without rehasing similar emotions.

Personally, I really believe that Ash had a valid point when she spoke about the diabetic in the lolly shop. i think by spending time in male company and around alchol every now and then will help you build on your recovery.

From where i sit, i see it as being a positive exercise, so well done and pat on the back to you.

I apologise if this doesnt make much sense, I've been hit with a migrane


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:23 pm 
cleopatra - Yes, what happened, the idea of it, represents a loss of control to me - Even though I rationally understand that it was a very moderate thing to do, and was being done in the light of my well-being and recovery. But this definitely sheds even more light on just exactly what my therapist meant by 'black and white rules'. Not as much the rules, but my reaction to the 'rules' being bent, does that make sense? It does, much much more to me now, that I have gone out and experienced a moderate version of those things.

I feel as if I did something 'wrong', even though nothing about it felt inherently wrong. I was hesitant, oh yes. And that was ok, was a natural feeling. But I did feel like "Oh boy, I'm doing this. I hope I don't get carried away with myself, now." More or less, I was in the midst of setting myself up with disastrous thinking. I had quite an inner dialogue before I went out that night. Like "I've done this before, and I got wild. If I do this again, I will get wild" No in-between, no gray, just simply thinking it would turn out that way. I pleasantly surprised myself by simply enjoying, and not analyzing.

Whenever I do something I feel I shouldn't be doing, I travel back in time. I see the face of someone berating and abusing me for doing shit I shouldn't be doing. I think it's about time he stop spending time in my head rent-free, and my therapist and I have been working on this. I am an adult, this is my life, and I have the freedom to make my own choices, to make mistakes, and to grow from them. I tell myself this all the time, and I try to abide as much as possible, but frankly, I scare myself with the thoughts sometimes, and that's what can hold me back. My reaction to my reaction.


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:11 pm 
An update-

This has been going well. I'm discovering, as I go on, that I don't think I'm too keen on drinking anymore. I just don't really ENJOY it these days. At best, it is somewhat pleasurable in quite small amounts (I've apparently become a lightweight).

I've also been dating, a lot. It's been really good for me in terms of discovering what I find compromisable and not so in a future partner. I did take to one man and after a few weeks, it became apparent that we weren't so compatible. And you know...I was bummed, sure. But I feel positive about that and this whole dating game, because I a) enjoy myself, b) accepted incompatibility without essentially blaming myself or him, and c) I learn more about what I like and what I don't, and get more chances to utilize healthy communication!

In terms of guilt and inner dialogues, majority of that has eased up tremendously the more I slide myself into these situations - They were very uncomfortable at first, and I felt like I was going against the grain...I struggled with a lot of angry feelings, like "Why the hell do I have to do this?" and generally being totally terrified, especially when it came to dating. But I see this had much to do with 'old' ways of thinking and fears of losing myself...When in fact, these situations and scenarios only give me more opportunity to FIND myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:36 pm 
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Thanks for the update -- it sounds like you're moving forward in a positive way!

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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:36 am 
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very happy for you, raeni!


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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:27 pm 
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Look at you go - that's FANTASTIC!

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 Post subject: Re: Black and white 'rules'
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 3:46 pm 
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this thread is timely for me, although way past timely for raeni....

I am looking at it in terms of my own situation and what's going on around here...I hade a glass of wine today and i feel like raeni did in one of her posts..something about shit on a carpet...

i think I feel this way because I know I am not supposed to be drinking with my meds and neighbor keeps bringing alcohol into the situation, knowing I can't drink because of my meds.

i feel like I can;t say no sometimes. not peer pressure, but I love food. To me, food includes alcohol when it is very good, the same way it includes dessert when it is exceptional. A good cote roti is an evocative 'meal" to me...
I enjoy the TASTE and bouquet...I can smell a good wine and take the same journey in my brain as if I were drinking it...I really do appreciate a good tasting anything...

So, I am wanting to be a "moderate" grown up and have a glass or two over an evening without feeling like a dipsomaniac or a medicated drooling patient...only problem is I AM on meds that come with a warning- "no drinky drinky". Now I feel like I am going to roll over and go to sleep.

the bottle of wine, a vey fine one at it's peaj at that, has been sitting in my house for the last 3 hours. The fact that I haven't guzzeled it only speaks to the fact that it is not yet 5 (or wasn;t all day) and I just don;t do before 5 drinking.

It also speaks to the idea that I had to work very hard to get over the shame of allowing someone to again push my boundaries, without probably realizing how much he does this 9he doesn't know it's a huge struggle for me internally about alcohol, he thinks it's just a meds thing) by bringin it into my house in the first place. No let me rephrase that- I dropped my boundaries - is more accurate in this instance..

i feel guilty for having a glass on meds when it says not to. I feel shame that I can't stick to the directions...but y'know it's been a few years...I WANT TO REJOIN THE WORLD and the things I like.

I feel afraid that I will reach that 'tipping point" where all judgment goes out the window and I will be off and running...thank goodness I am just sleepy now...

I feeel...I was thinking about the rule "I will not drink when I am angry or sad" I think that's raeni's rule...and i was both of those things the other day and I really wanted to go get a good glass of scotch...and I knew it was not going to help or make me feel anything less than a fool, so I didn't..now I would just like to have a nice time and enjoy the dang wine.

I hate these meds and I hate the idea that I don;t know if i can drink like a responsible adult anymore because it has been so long...

ARGHHGGGH


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