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 Post subject: rage???
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:05 am 
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Sorry, can anyone tell me, what does raging mean?

For example, I feel my mentor is going to / has abandoned me coz she has not replied my sms, and I message a whole string of long messages, is that considered raging?


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:19 pm 
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I don't think there's a standard definition that everyone would even come close to agreeing with. In my book, raging is a question of reacting (in a knee-jerk, non-thoughtful, non-rational sort of way) to something with extreme anger, and even more, acting out about it. It's anger on steroids, and often (not always) involves something physical. It can be just screaming at the person who ticked you off, but can also include hitting/biting/scratching/etc. the person, or throwing stuff, or breaking stuff, or exaggerated threats of or actual self-injury or suicide attempts. It also isn't something where the angry person just blows up and lets off some steam and then it's done -- the rage is deep and intense and not easily defused at all.

But like I said, others may disagree with my point of view. I've never talked to any mental health professionals about what actually constitutes a BPD rage.

All things considered, I would put your string of angry phone messages at the low end of rage. For starters, you're not face to face with the object of your anger. You're acting out and being a pain, but it's not so over the top that you're causing major distress to the other person, who can easily delete or ignore your messages. You're obviously holding on to your anger (which emanates from abandonment issues) and not letting go of it or trying to just sit with it until it dissipates, but you haven't (or at least, haven't fessed up to) trashed her office or screamed at her non-stop for an hour or physically attacked her.

I'm not sure why you asked, or why it matters to you whether your behavior meets some official benchmark, but I would encourage you to look for ways in which our "Tools" could help you in times like this. For starters, from the Four Agreements, don't make assumptions (that your mentor has abandoned you -- she might be busy or ill or whatever), and don't take it personally -- for whatever reason that she hasn't responded to you, it's about her and what's going on in her life and not about you. Also, you should be impeccable with your word, which means being authentic and truthful and careful and respectful when you speak (or leave messages). Next, use the Five Steps to figure out alternative -- and hopefully less annoying and more productive -- ways of dealing with your abandonment fears and resulting anger. Acting out with anger, whether it's actual "rage" or not, is usually not productive -- it rarely solves the initial problem, and usually just makes the relationship even more complicated and difficult. So look at the Steps, consider "I was feeling abandoned because [ ] didn't respond to my message" as the problem, and see if you can figure out two other responses to that situation (other than sending a string of angry follow-up messages) that might have better results. It might be a matter of distracting yourself until you hear from her, or calling somebody else, or deciding to send ONE message that spells out clearly -- and most importantly, non-confrontationally -- your previous effort to contact her, the topic you need to discuss with her, and so forth. Then the next time you feel abandoned -- and getting angry -- do one of those things instead of what you did this time, and see if you get a better result. The more you practice dealing with strong emotions without acting out, the better you'll get at handling those kinds of situations. Acting on the basis of rage is virtually never useful. Look for other ways to defuse the emotion and respond to the problem in a responsive -- not reactive -- way.

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I made some studies, and reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it.
I can take it in small doses, but as a lifestyle I found it too confining. -- Jane Wagner


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:17 am 
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Sari, thanks a lot

I think I'm trying to understand myself, I mean I'm beginning to have some self-awareness of the bpd-ness in the ways I behave, say things, relate to people especially those I have difficulties with.

I saw some messages about raging, and I was 'examining' my own behaviour, to have self-awareness about how I act and behave and think.

Terms like "act out" did not make sense to me, I mean I don't understand them, though I'm sure I am guilty of acting out too.

Your explanation really, really help me to understand many things.

Will try the tools you mentioned - the four agreements and the five steps :)

thanks lots!


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:55 pm 
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[quote="Sari"]I don't think there's a standard definition that everyone would even come close to agreeing with. In my book, raging is a question of reacting (in a knee-jerk, non-thoughtful, non-rational sort of way) to something with [i]extreme[/i] anger, and even more, acting [i]out[/i] about it. It's anger on steroids, and often ([i]not[/i] always) involves something physical. It can be just screaming at the person who ticked you off, but can also include hitting/biting/scratching/etc. the person, or throwing stuff, or breaking stuff, or exaggerated threats of or actual self-injury or suicide attempts. It also isn't something where the angry person just blows up and lets off some steam and then it's done -- the rage is deep and intense and not easily defused at all. [/quote]

I think Sari has a great start here. I would ADD to this that there is also "silent rage" which includes but is not limited to disappearing, silent treatment, ignoring, 'freezing out" and emotionally withholding. It can include all of the passive aggressive behaviors of "accidentally" hurting someone physcially or emotionally, or harming property or oneself, saying we are going to do something and not following through, blame when we do not bring our peice to the situation and deflecting our failure to do so back onto the person through emotional blackmail, threats to leave, threats of any kind or bringing up something "they did' putting them on the defensive, poking at someone, interrogating...

This is not the same as taking a constructive time out within the rules of fair fighting or promoting relationship health and repair.

Perhaps a string of angry TXt messages is on the "low end" of rage, perhaps I might offer that the low end of rage is when we do not at all vent our frustrations onto another, but maybe beat a pillow and detroy our own things. I would disagree strongly that the fact that another unsuspecting person "has the choice" to delete a rage message theycouldn't possibly be expecting (unless it is a habit of ours to send these to them)and the "once removed" status of the person because it is a phone contact qualifies it as "low end". There is still a human being on the other end and our inability to face that peson or just because we do not have access to them in another medium does not really mitigate how it feels to be on the receiving end of that behavior and those high out of control emotions.
For anyone who has been on the receiving end, it feels like cowardice, vitriol and being stalked. This is a very frightening feeling because we know it comes from rage and rage is a loss of control. In ome situations, domenstic one's for example, feeling stalked by someone ina rage who won't speak with us directly and clamly feels like being terrorized.

I think it's great to talk about this stuff because this isn't what wewant to bedoing and whatever the reason you are asking (insight into your own behaviors you said) ...GOOD FOR YOU!!

Thing is- what are sometools you can use to not do this to yourself or to others so you can have a lot of love in your life, which I know you deserve.

I speak from experience- I had the same questions...

Hugs and I know you can do it!


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:59 pm 
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I would totally agree that passive aggressive behavior is an example of rage and is inappropriate, though I still see it as a "low end" of rage compared to the physical destruction and even injury that can take place in a more "acted out" raging incident. And I don't mean to sound like I think sending a stream of angry phone messages (or texts) is fine since they can be deleted or ignored -- it is indeed annoying and frustrating for the recipient, who generally doesn't know how to deal with that kind of carrying on.


"Acting out," mortal, is basically what happens when you react to a strong negative emotion like anger in an instant, knee-jerk, not-reasoned-out, often non-rational way, rather than to respond responsibly and thoughtfully. And because it doesn't arise from thoughtful consideration, where the consequences of the action taken would be anticipated, it's generally not constructive. It's usually a lashing out, an outwardly-directed expression of the anger or frustration or hurt or whatever. In contrast, people who "act in" are those who more rarely dump their unhappiness on others whom they blame for their misery, but opt to do things that punish themselves such as cutting or other self-injury, or suicide attempts.

So the key in all this is, when you feel that emotion building up and you feel like you're going to explode and you want to make someone (or yourself) suffer, STOP! Don't do anything at all for a few minutes. Center yourself, concentrate on relaxing your muscles and regulating your breathing, and try to recognize what it is you're feeling and why you're feeling it. If you can make yourself pause and do a little reality testing, you're much more likely to be able to find some alternative (and more constructive) resolutions to the problem than the knee-jerk loss of temper. This is where you practice running through the Ten Forms of Twisted Thinking to see if your emotional reaction to the situation really matches up with the reality. Say you're feeling abandoned. You need to look at that more closely. Is the person usually reliable? If so, isn't it possible they're not responding to you because they're busy or distracted by something in their own immediate life or maybe ill? Is your own reaction being influenced by something else going on, like your child is ill or the dog died or your mother-in-law is about to arrive for a visit and you can't stand her and your anxiety is spilling out into the other situation? You get the idea. You need to slow down and make yourself do NOTHING until you've thought about a) what's really happening and b) what's the best way to respond that will actually get me what I want or need rather than just piss off the other person.

Slowing down and thinking things through before acting are probably the two most important bits of advice I can give anybody with BPD. They will save you a ton of aggravation.

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I made some studies, and reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it.
I can take it in small doses, but as a lifestyle I found it too confining. -- Jane Wagner


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:15 am 
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Surreal:
There have been quite many a time when I couldn't control my text messages to one of my mentors. No wonder recently she has been asking me to stop messaging her, and she even texted me saying that I have been harassing her. I wonder how she must feel to be on the receiving end of my raging through text messages, when I feel hurt / abandoned.

Sari
Thanks for the tip, that is to:
a) pause
b) think through using the ten twisted forms of thinking, and getting in touch with reality

NOW I understand what it means by the statement "people with BPD lose touch with reality", always wondered what that means.

Thanks a lot, folks! Will STOP next time I feel like sending a string of text messages to my mentor or to anyone else!


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:30 am 
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Good for you!!!

I know that we all tend to want one thing from people who are scaring or hurting us- it's a behavior change, not an appology without the behavior change. I think it's so great that you are takeling this stuff so head on. BRAVA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOO

What's your strategy to deal with the feelings in the mean time? Any ideas yet?

Sari- it's ok we disagree on the severity of "once removed rage acts" - we all feel a little bit differently about the nuances based on personal experience - what's important is we know that the severity is irrelevant when thinking about if it'shelpful or not :-)

Surreal


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:26 pm 
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Glad that I could be helpful, mortal. If you have more questions, ask away!

Surreal, it's perfectly OK to have different perspectives. We've all had different experiences. I've personally experienced emotional, non-physical abuse, which is what I would roughly equate with receiving multiple angry phone or text messages, and it was long-term over years, which would not be the situation with meremortal, at least based on what she said. It was no fun at all, very damaging in the long run, and I would never suggest that it's OK to verbally abuse anybody. But as an RN, I cared for people who were the victim of physical abuse and face-to-face destructive behavior which far outweighed what I had been through, at least in my opinion.

The bottom line is that we all have a responsibility to be non-abusive, physically or verbally, face-to-face or second-hand. We have to learn to stop ourselves when we feel we're going to lose our tempers and be tempted to over-react and rage at somebody who, in truth, doesn't deserve that treatment. So we have to learn what kinds of things trigger high emotion in us, we have to learn to recognize the signs that we're getting over-emotional, and we have to learn to STOP and THINK before we act on our emotions.

_________________
I made some studies, and reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it.
I can take it in small doses, but as a lifestyle I found it too confining. -- Jane Wagner


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:01 pm 
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Surreal:
It took me a longggg while to realize that I was raging, it was like a 'aha' moment when I was reading through some of the posts on this site.

Behaviour change? Hmm... I've apologized to my mentor, and have stopped sending her text messages, as she has requested. It was really really painful though, when she texted me, "stop smsing me". Really, really painful.

What's my strategy in the mean time? I guess just don't send any text messages to her, and whenever i have the urge to do it, just don't do it? Don't know, I can't think of any other strategy.

Sari wrote:
So we have to learn what kinds of things trigger high emotion in us, we have to learn to recognize the signs that we're getting over-emotional, and we have to learn to STOP and THINK before we act on our emotions.

Hmmm... I think it's perceived abandonment and rejection... Something for me to work on here. Thanks for the valuable tip!


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:20 pm 
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YOU ARE A SUPAH STAH!!!!!!!,


I have found that having a 'cookie jar" of strategies is really helpful. Sometimes journaling will work for me one time, sometimes working out another
depends...sometimes it's a big container of chocolate icecream...positive self talk 'it's ok. I can wait, I am able to wait because I can control myself" (that was my 'go to" many times)

Maybe you could type on a word doc what youwant to say and keep it as a journal?

maybe you can think of a couple of other things that could serve you so you are prepared!

but I will tell you what- YOU ARE A SUPAH STAH for your line of thinking here!

I remember when I had your same aha moment- yikes.
But it made my life SOOOOOO much better!

SUPAH STAH YOU


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:59 pm 
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Surreal:
yikes is the word man. It's like yikes am I like that? Do I behave like that? I rage? Yikes.

thanks for the suggestions, will work on that :)

and THANK YOU so much for cheering me on!


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:56 pm 
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anytime!

I remember thinking to myself..OMG I AM THAT girl!

I didn't MEAN to be, but my own emotions and needs were all I could see. I was totally narcisistic that way. i had no idea how I was affecting anyone else. but I will tell you what I found out underneath it all. i honestly didn't think anyone noticed. I had a very wrong underlying belief that i was like invisible basically, so that no one noticed what i did; or this other illogical thought I didn't know I had which was connected to the first thought, that no matter what I did to people or myself, that no one had any feelings and nothing I did could affect anyone...

It made sense in myself at the time...it sounds crazy outloud, especially now. But i had been "invisible' for so long and feelings were not tolerated in any way...what else was I supposed to learn or think...not to mention become totally messed up internally...

oh well, maybe the next life will be a little more smooth :-)


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:55 pm 
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wow...


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 Post subject: Re: rage???
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:40 pm 
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I don't know if that's a good "wow" or a bad "wow"...:-)

This is the second part of your original question which I don't think really got answered. "For example, I feel my mentor is going to / has abandoned me coz she has not replied my sms, and I message a whole string of long messages, is that considered raging?"

It depends on what you said in the messages...

It IS however considered being "out of control" and self oriented as a general umbrella.

How did you FEEL when you sent the messages? What were you trying to DO by sending that many messages?

Were you threatening? Punishing? Cursing? Accusing? Blaming? Begging? Switching it up by changing tactics? Barraging the mentor with "your stuff" and not being able to control your impulses to wait for a response?

In hindsight, how do you think you came across to other people in that episode?

Does that match what you felt inside?

Is it what you wanted to accomplish?

Questions like this can help us understand better if we are raging or acting out in other ways (we have more than rage y'know :-) )

maybe they can help you :-)


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