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 Post subject: Regret
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:07 am 
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I have not been here for awhile now. This week I met someone through a book swapping site who has been diagnosed with BPD and without thinking I referred her here. Then I decided I should take a peek and see how people are doing since I have been gone so long. What I am seeing is the same thing that caused me to leave (repeatedly) in the past. It seems nothing changes!

I have been dealing with someone in 3D who has been diagnosed with BPD and I have to admit that it has me seeing more of the "Fatal Attraction" side of BPD than I have ever seen before. This person seemed to think her illegal behavior against me and my family was perfectly justified while it honestly scared me into hiding from her. Perhaps this recent experience has caused me to be more sensitive than ever before to the dynamics I see playing out here over and over because now I find myself wanting to tell this person I referred to stay away instead.

I did give this other person a disclaimer about how there are a few people in "acting out" mode who never seem to get beyond using disfunctional coping skills, but somehow I had hoped that the community would have discouraged those people from making excuses for inexcusable behavior. Whenever I see the "I act the way I do because I am triggered into acting in the opposite way I was taught by my parents" type of (faulty) logic, it makes me cringe. I know we all fall back on old "patterns" at times but using the victim role to justify poor behavior is really sick (in a mentally ill way)! I don't know anyone who acts in an opposite way from the way they were raised when under stress because the natural tendency is to react in a familiar way when our coping skills are tested. For instance, someone who uses self-injury as a means of coping does not do the reverse and injure others, they will revert to self-injury because that is what has worked for them in the past. People who have been hurt do not lash out at others when they feel threatened unless that is a natural behavior for them, in which case they are in no way a victim (and are probably the only ones who would define themselves as victims).

Obviously this person I referred here is an adult and she can do as she pleases but I am aware how fragile she is right now so I would feel guilty for having a part in her further stress and trauma. What makes me sad is that I had given this web address to her thinking it would offer her hope while I am afraid that she might get sucked into the hopelessness of a few "hopeless" cases. I have found that I do better when I am not bothered by an individual person here and so it has been more therapeutic for me to stay away from BPDR. Since I don't actually have BPD and I have very few Borderline behaviors, it did not make sense for me to suffer through other people's issues when I have enough of my own to deal with already.

For my own sanity, I am not going to be able to stay and be a support to the person I referred here so I am asking that those of you who are further along in recovery be a positive role model and continue to challenge those who need to focus more on recovery than on making excuses. I think support is a wonderful therapeutic tool as long as it is supporting positive behavior and not helping keep someone stuck in their self-created victim mentality. Perhaps I will peek in again in time and see that things have changed for the better so that I can feel confident in referring people to this site.

Ash, I know that you don't always have the time to be the "voice of reason" when you are juggling so many demands on your time so please don't take this as criticism about your site specifically. It is the people and the words posted that make BPDR what it is and you can't possibly control everything that happens here. I have felt your frustration with specific people and seen how it ends in backlash against you so I know you can only do so much to make BPDR what you envisioned a recovery site to look like. All it takes is one quick peek in Conversation Corner to see a prominent source of conflict on the board and there is not much you can do except what you continue doing. The dynamics of the board are such that those who do not need to keep working on their stuff tend to move on and no longer have a voice here.

There are many people here who I consider friends but BPDR is no longer a place I find comfort being when there is so much conflict and sorry excuses for bad behavior. Those who claim they "can't" change are not likely to ever change for the better. I can't change those people, I can only protect myself from being dragged down by them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:23 pm 
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Such a long negative thread just to say that you are going to stay away??? It seems like the same old actions of Denim. You know coming on back. Hurting peoples feelings. Speaking arrogantly. Basically, just stirring the pot.

You have Mental Health Issues, too. How can you talk about acting so BPD when you come here and are given support and resources when you are acting totally MPD/DID??

I have been reading your posts for 3+years probably. Same old, same old with you, too. I tried to hold my tongue because I don't usually say anything but it seems like you came not as support for your friend but to be negative about the site and the people that use it.

You aren't playing fair, Denim.


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 Post subject: Re: Regret
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:26 pm 
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Denim, I don't know if you'll be back to read this, but in case you are, I want to note something.

Denim Blue wrote:
Whenever I see the "I act the way I do because I am triggered into acting in the opposite way I was taught by my parents" type of (faulty) logic, it makes me cringe.

You wrote that in the context of talking about this message board. Yet, this is something I haven't seen. In particular, I can't recall anyone ever talking about acting opposite of what they were taught by their parents, except in the context of not continuing the unhealthy things they were taught, which is a good thing. I feel confident in asserting that that kind of defense of one's behavior is not at all typical here.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Denim Blue wrote:
Whenever I see the "I act the way I do because I am triggered into acting in the opposite way I was taught by my parents" type of (faulty) logic, it makes me cringe.

Hmmm, I was taught (actively and passively) to make all manner of assumptions and take just about everything personally. I was taught that I should always know what my mother was thinking or expected of me. I was taught that I was not allowed to have my own opinion, that I must always agree with her, that whatever she said or did was the only correct way and that I was completely wrong if I wanted to do or believe something different.

The entire reason this site exists is because of my dedication to act in a way opposite from what I was taught by one of my parents.

If you meant to imply that everyone's parents taught them to behave in a healthy, rational manner and that we're just behaving in a contrary manner simply to be difficult and relish our borderline ways, I feel sad and sorry. For so many reasons that I won't get into just yet. I don't see much point in going off on a tangent that no one's yet requested I elaborate upon.

Meanwhile, there was something else that caught my eye.
Denim Blue wrote:
I had hoped that the community would have discouraged those people from making excuses for inexcusable behavior

Recovery is a continuum filled with shades of grey. It is not something that is black-and-white with an on/off switch. I was a blackened BPD nutter one day and then woke up cleansed & lily white, recovered the next. It doesn't work like that. The expectation that it must or should is ludicrous. There will always be bumps along the way. Scratches. Nicks. Cuts. Scrapes. Bruises. It's not smooth sailing.
LisaMusing wrote:
It's not a matter of how many times I fall on my ass. It's a matter of how many times I get back up and dust myself off.

If seeing people fall down and get momentarily blindsided by the very-strong pull of Borderline is offensive to you, then yes, I fully understand why you wouldn't want to be here or refer others here.

Some people are more susceptible to the tenets of recovery and have a support system in place to help them work with the tools to their benefit. Other people aren't so fortunate and have a much tougher road to hoe simply because that's how their brain chemistry works, how the people in their life suck them back in to the dysfunctional role they're expected to play, how they don't have the support nearby to give them a leg up to get out of the pit of BPD.

I'm sorry if these people are completely hopeless to you. While it can be frustrating to witness and it can be sorely tempting to write them off, as long as they keep dusting themselves off and continue trying to move forward, learn and grow, they will always have a place here at BPDR. If that's not something you can support, I fully respect that. I don't have to like or agree with it but I can respect it nevertheless.
Denim Blue wrote:
People who have been hurt do not lash out at others when they feel threatened unless that is a natural behavior for them, in which case they are in no way a victim (and are probably the only ones who would define themselves as victims).

Wow. Just wow.

A child is taught both actively and passively. My mother snapped at me repeatedly throughout my childhood. Some might call it verbal and/or emotional abuse. (Outside of the physical stuff, that is.) As a child, I was a victim because I didn't have the ability to defend myself against such attacks. (To speak up was to incur more wrath so I learned to keep my mouth shut and simply take what was being hurled my way.)

As an adult, I defaulted to what I was taught as a child. Not the keeping-my-mouth-shut and being a doormat for every form of abuse finding its way to me parts. The part I defaulted to was the "this is how adults behave" part. I had learned how to be snappish and expect other people to read my mind, to accurately assume I knew what was right. That other people should always agree with me no matter what. That I could be verbally and emotionally (if not also physically) abusive.

But according to your (somewhat faulty) logic, Denim, I was never a victim and I've always been an abuser and there has never been any hope for me to be a healthy, happy adult. Wow. Just wow.

If that is truly your view, I do indeed understand why you no longer wish to be part of the BPDR community. I see why you are hesitant now to refer people here.
Denim Blue wrote:
I am asking that those of you who are further along in recovery be a positive role model and continue to challenge those who need to focus more on recovery than on making excuses. ... I will peek in again in time and see that things have changed for the better so that I can feel confident in referring people to this site.

Just as you said earlier, things don't change. Those people are still here. Maybe some of the names have changed - resignations, promotions - but the core of that model has not changed. I'm sorry and terribly sad that you're not able to see it. If I saw things the way you see them, I would close this place down in a heartbeat. How depressing and hopeless it all sounds when viewed from that angle.

I've always been a self-proclaimed Pollyanna. I may be seeing too positive a spin on this place and its members and its Community Leadership team. Such is life.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Meanwhile, I hope all else is well with you and your family.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:42 pm 
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I don't want to end up doing a sort of "hit and run" thread so I will stick with this in order to give clarification as necessary.

Ash wrote:
Hmmm, I was taught (actively and passively) to make all manner of assumptions and take just about everything personally. I was taught that I should always know what my mother was thinking or expected of me. I was taught that I was not allowed to have my own opinion, that I must always agree with her, that whatever she said or did was the only correct way and that I was completely wrong if I wanted to do or believe something different.


I see people acting this way and it makes perfect sense to me why they would act the way they were taught to act. This is not the sort of thing I am talking about but I can't really give exact examples of what I am talking about because that would just be seen as my being "mean" by pointing out exactly what I am seeing.

Ash wrote:
If you meant to imply that everyone's parents taught them to behave in a healthy, rational manner and that we're just behaving in a contrary manner simply to be difficult and relish our borderline ways, I feel sad and sorry. For so many reasons that I won't get into just yet. I don't see much point in going off on a tangent that no one's yet requested I elaborate upon.


That was not my implication at all. I believe people act in the negative ways they were taught by their parents, unless they work to correct those "knee jerk" responses to more appropriate responses. What I am talking about is when people act opposite to what they were taught and then claim they act that way because they were taught to act in a completely opposite way from the way they are acting. When someone's "knee jerk" response is completely opposite from what you would expect, based on the fact that people tend to revert to past patterns of behavior and not behaviors that are completely opposite from the way they were taught, it does not make sense when they lay the blame on the way they were taught. Again, it is hard to explain what I am seeing without pointing fingers directly and I am avoiding doing that because I have already learned that it does not work. I am sensitive to hypocrites (people who say one thing but their actions speak differently) because I don't like being manipulated by them so what I am seeing may not be as blatantly obvious to everyone.

Ash wrote:
A child is taught both actively and passively. My mother snapped at me repeatedly throughout my childhood. Some might call it verbal and/or emotional abuse. (Outside of the physical stuff, that is.) As a child, I was a victim because I didn't have the ability to defend myself against such attacks. (To speak up was to incur more wrath so I learned to keep my mouth shut and simply take what was being hurled my way.)

As an adult, I defaulted to what I was taught as a child. Not the keeping-my-mouth-shut and being a doormat for every form of abuse finding its way to me parts. The part I defaulted to was the "this is how adults behave" part. I had learned how to be snappish and expect other people to read my mind, to accurately assume I knew what was right. That other people should always agree with me no matter what. That I could be verbally and emotionally (if not also physically) abusive.

But according to your (somewhat faulty) logic, Denim, I was never a victim and I've always been an abuser and there has never been any hope for me to be a healthy, happy adult. Wow. Just wow.


This is fabulous insight and I can't believe I did not see it myself! It is logical that this person acts just like her mother and blames her mother for teaching her to act this way. I know that some people identify with their abuser and become just like them. I should have seen this years ago. I think this person's defensiveness has prevented me from seeing it clearly, as I do now, as it has created a sort of "smokescreen" cover-up. According to the descriptions posted about her mother, that is exactly how she acts! So, instead of acting the way she was taught by her mother to act, she acts like her mother instead. Her attention seeking and need to create drama and conflict are not reactions against how she was taught to act, but rather her identification with her mother so that she learned to act just like her. That is a bit of a scarier way of looking at it but it does make perfect sense.

paintedlady wrote:
You have Mental Health Issues, too. How can you talk about acting so BPD when you come here and are given support and resources when you are acting totally MPD/DID??


I realized that the support and resources I need to work on my mental illness must be found elsewhere. Unfortunately the boards for people who are working on DID issues are not something I can take part in because I see too many symptomatic posts and not enough recovery-oriented posts. BPDR has always been the best mental health resource online, compared to other sites out there (especially when compared to other BPD sites). The issues I raised are not about BPDR - they are about the behavior of the community at BPDR.

Anyone reading through my posts here at BPDR will notice that I have a greater tendency to offer support and resources than to ask for support and resources from other people. Since I was last here in September, we have gone through the stress of purchasing a home (which required moving to another area). I had managed to go off meds before the move and I have been able to stay off meds through the move, which was all the more stressful when the owner of the home we were supposed to have been renting to own took illegal actions against us (this person has been diagnosed with BPD but I don't think that is entirely to blame for her actions), so that we may need to take her to court now. I have seen a therapist briefly to discuss what I think could be symptoms of spirit attachment but I don't think I am going to keep seeing her now that we have moved. Most of the topic of conversation at this point has been about the stress of the move and I don't think she is going to be a strong enough person to share my troubles with so I may look for someone in this area or see how I do on my own. I have not asked the community here to help me deal with any of these issues, although I could certainly have written a long ranting post about all the things I have been dealing with these past months. If I had better tolerance for some of the things I see here, I probably would have continued to post support and resources for other people but I found that my energy was put to better use in 3D.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:09 pm 
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Sometimes when un-learning a habit, including the things our parents have taught us, there is a pendulum-swing the other way for a while. This can also be progress. Some people may need to go back and forth a few times before finding the healthy grey area in the middle. The recovery process is not always a straight line.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:43 pm 
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Oops, I had meant to address another part of this in my last post so I will address it separately here.

Ash wrote:
Denim Blue wrote:
People who have been hurt do not lash out at others when they feel threatened unless that is a natural behavior for them, in which case they are in no way a victim (and are probably the only ones who would define themselves as victims).

Wow. Just wow.

A child is taught both actively and passively. My mother snapped at me repeatedly throughout my childhood. Some might call it verbal and/or emotional abuse. (Outside of the physical stuff, that is.) As a child, I was a victim because I didn't have the ability to defend myself against such attacks. (To speak up was to incur more wrath so I learned to keep my mouth shut and simply take what was being hurled my way.)

As an adult, I defaulted to what I was taught as a child. Not the keeping-my-mouth-shut and being a doormat for every form of abuse finding its way to me parts. The part I defaulted to was the "this is how adults behave" part. I had learned how to be snappish and expect other people to read my mind, to accurately assume I knew what was right. That other people should always agree with me no matter what. That I could be verbally and emotionally (if not also physically) abusive.

But according to your (somewhat faulty) logic, Denim, I was never a victim and I've always been an abuser and there has never been any hope for me to be a healthy, happy adult. Wow. Just wow.

If that is truly your view, I do indeed understand why you no longer wish to be part of the BPDR community. I see why you are hesitant now to refer people here.


Child victims are victims and that does not change for them as children. What I am talking about is someone claiming to be a victim as an adult because they were a child victim and then using that past victim role to justify poor behavior as an adult.

I see a lot of this "inner child" stuff, which seems to indicate that it is okay for people to act like children at any age. I don't have an "inner child" so I suppose it is hard for me to understand the concept applied to an adult.

I don't see adults as victims unless they are being victimized as adults. I happily cast off my role as childhood victim when I became an adult and determined that I would never be anyone's victim again. It is true that I got myself into trouble and ended up being used and abused by others as an adult, but I was responsible for my behavior and should have protected myself better. Children are powerless to protect themselves so they are not able to make adult choices. Adults have choices and they are responsible for their behavior. They are no longer victims of their childhood.

For someone to act in ways their parents acted means they identified with the parent and the behavior so that they then own the behavior as an adult. Not all abused children become child abusers - many break the cycle of abuse. Society expects those parents to treat their children and others differently than they were treated as opposed to using it as justification for the treatment of their own children. I don't beat (or even spank) my children even though I was beat as a child. I don't molest them or tell them they are evil just because I was repeatedly raped and told I was a child of the devil. It is true that I get angry and there have been times I felt like I wanted to hurt someone but I am an adult and I can choose to be the kind of mother I want my daughters to have. I can choose to treat others the way I want to be treated and not how my parents would have treated them. I am not a victim of childhood circumstances anymore.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:58 pm 
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Come on Denim, you know darn well you posted this as a passive-aggressive attempt to dig at another member who you dislike. As I recall, you had your own serious behavioral issues which even included cheating on your hubby for money to go on a trip. That you can come here acting as if you are somehow beyond all unhealthy behaviors and pointing the finger at those still struggling is amazing to me.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:45 pm 
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I see a lot of this "inner child" stuff, which seems to indicate that it is okay for people to act like children at any age. I don't have an "inner child" so I suppose it is hard for me to understand the concept applied to an adult.


Denim, while I do think you are saying what you believe is true, honestly, I think you are wrong when you say you have no inner child. Or, maybe in one sense right, but in another sense wrong. I think you have suppressed or dissociated the part of you that the term "inner child" would refer to. And being as you have DID, well, it's a given you have dissociated parts. Certainly not much of a leap to think that the parts that some call the inner child might be among the dissociated parts. So, it's not that you don't have this part, but that you aren't in touch with it.

Also, it is okay for someone of any age to act like a child, if they do it in a healthy way. Which means an appropriate time and place and manner, and while also being responsible for one's own safety.

The people here who are dealing with inner child issues aren't trying to banish their inner child, because that's not the healthy answer. Rather, they are looking for healthy answers, one small step at a time.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:53 pm 
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P.S. To what April said, now, I don't know if Denim is being passive agressive or not, but I do tend to think that when people are, it's usually not with awareness that they are being passive aggressive. They may be aware of angry or irritated feelings, but they aren't thinking of their behaviors as passive and agressive.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:58 pm 
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*Also, it is okay for someone of any age to act like a child, if they do it in a healthy way. Which means an appropriate time and place and manner, and while also being responsible for one's own safety*

I really liked what you wrote MR, I was never one to "act" like a child as an adult and would get mortified when i saw others doing it, I didn't know how to play with my kids and I know it hurt them a lot. I can now say i can play with my 15 month old son and i enjoy it so much, i actually play with his toys even when he's not lol. I don't know what changed, but i'm glad it did, I think about all the fun things i can do with my son as he gets older and its a good feeling.

I hope i didn't hijack the thread but that really stood out for me.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:00 pm 
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From the start your post was quite disturbing and yet the only question I have had for you from the start relates very well to this one statement (which you've posed in a variety of forms thru out this thread):

Quote:
Again, it is hard to explain what I am seeing without pointing fingers directly and I am avoiding doing that because I have already learned that it does not work. I am sensitive to hypocrites (people who say one thing but their actions speak differently) because I don't like being manipulated by them so what I am seeing may not be as blatantly obvious to everyone.


a) Is a post such as yours really any better than finger pointing? Is it really any less attention-seeking and drama filled?

b) You keep referencing a person or two (and I cant distinguish what you mean).. either way... this is the question that has been with me since I first read your post.

Rather than make a post in general and disturb the entire board why havent you pm'd the person directly (or CC'd) and tried to work it out with them? Why not be part of this community and do what you can to help someone? No, it doesn't always work but if every member threw up their hands when that was the case - we would not have a community here at all...

this isnt a perfect place but as you've even stated, it is pretty damn good. Yes, there are many people at many various levels of recovery - and that is for a huge variety of reasons. Have you really bothered to try to find out? Why not just accept that you are so far from understanding this person that you best avoid all posts by them and not interact?

Imo, this post is in many ways much worse than any post that is directly to an individual and really asking them to look at what they are doing (with the intention of trying to help them).

Not really sure your post was for this community at all, but some huge 'disclaimer' to your 'friend' and I think you would have been better off going directly to your friend and discussing all this with her.

Dunno. Very confused and quite disheartened by your post, Denim.

As for not having anywhere to go to work on recovery from DID- there are places that you could go, and ways you can shape what you want from it. Not doing so, imo, is the same as throwing your hands up. Dunno that that is any better; different than someone who is taking longer to integrate the tools here at BPDR.. but then both are personal judgements, eh ?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:19 pm 
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After looking beyond the initial pages I saw when I took a quick peek, I see more of what I had hoped to see here. It just takes a bit of digging and scraping under the surface, which I had not taken the time to do before I posted my initial message. It does take some effort to ignore those things that gave me concern in the first place but then perhaps it is a good exercise to be able to put certain negative things out of mind and focus on those that are more positive. If I were more capable of doing that, I suppose I would not have left in the first place. I have this fear of one bad apple ruining the entire barrel while perhaps the other apples are more able to resist rot than I suppose.

I was always able to put particular forums out of sight, such as Deep Blue, but it is somehow harder with people or issues who appear everywhere I look. The best option for me has always been to leave and hope things change in my absence when being present is not working for me. This coping method leaves me more and more "detached" though and less able to catch up on what I missed while I was gone.

This really was not a "hate" message to or about anyone in particular. I did not intend it to be passive-aggressive but given the alternatives of communication styles I have to choose from in order to communicate this type of message, I suppose that being passive aggressive would be the best approach if I were to have to pick one. Being direct is not an option in this situation as it has failed on a number of occasions in the past. I have a tendency to be too outspoken and direct so it actually takes some effort for me to communicate about something I have to avoid saying directly.

I was trying to communicate about my feelings of regret about referring someone here without thinking about what I was exposing her to by sending her the link. My initial thought about sending her here was so she would learn more about BPD and not feel so alone with her experiences. I wanted this to be a supportive place to encourage her in her therapeutic journey. My mind was focused on those positive things I have seen here in the past. I initially just gave her BPDR.com as a link but then had to find the link to the forums since that address did not work for her. Since I had my browser open to BPDR, something I have not done for months, I decided to log in and look around to see how people are doing. Catching site of the drama and conflict is what led to my feeling of regret and it was strong enough that I posted about it. Knowing that I am not capable of staying here to support this person, I was asking the community to consider being on "good behavior" in order to give a more positive impression of BPDR. I am afraid that by seeing so much "acting out" behavior from someone with the title "senior community member" could end up leading to her feeling hopeless about her own therapy when I wanted to give her hope.

Those of you who are familiar with the old "Nook" may have a better understanding of where my concerns come from since it was one of those sites out there that was so negative about BPD that people who ended up there after having been diagnosed with BPD would come to the conclusion that they must be the monster people were describing, even though that "monster" mentality was particular to the Nook and the community there. That community had somehow reached the consensus that "BPD bashing" was a therapeutic tool and could not see how destructive they were acting. I honestly don't know if that sort of behavior was therapeutic to anyone there because the majority of people I have known with BPD do not resemble anyone described there. In fact, one of my biggest concerns about the site was that it encouraged people to label other people with BPD without a professional diagnosis. My foster mother (who has been diagnosed with BPD) is a psychiatric nurse and has worked in a number of hospitals where people are incorrectly diagnosed with BPD just for demonstrating one or more trait (particularly SI behavior) so even the professionals get it wrong. I have even been told that I never actually had BPD but that DID is often misdiagnosed as BPD since it is such a controversial diagnosis (particularly when there is high resistance to the DID diagnosis, as in my situation).

Anyway, I think too fast and type fast enough to get too many of my thoughts typed out so that my posts get pretty long. My original post has gone beyond a single topic now so that there are multiple topics going on in a single thread, which is going to get long and confuse people. Can we try sticking to the original topic as much as possible here and try addressing other topics in separate threads? Since I essentially "started it" I am willing to follow through with other threads that need my input even though I had not actually planned to stick around for very long.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:36 pm 
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I'm glad to see that you've investigated the site further, Denim, and can see the growth of people here.

Regarding your viewpoint that certain members here are forever stuck in the same place and not progressing (and with a tone of looking down on them). . .

. . .I have to say that I found your derogatory comments about other people's lack of progress somewhat laughable, since I view you as fitting into this category as much as anybody else. Numerous times, I read posts from you that I felt clearly showed your dissociative processes at work, and yes, indications that you do indeed have an "inner child."

Why do I say so?

Out of the blue, you would post anxious and emotional child-like comments -- and then later come back and post in a clearly different, adult-type logical fashion -- essentially "taking back" what you'd said earlier. Or you would claim that you didn't remember having posted the earlier, child-like message. I'm no expert, but from what I've read, you were showing clear indications of dissociation. You showed very different child-like (you could say "inner child") and logical (adult like) states of mind.

However, whenever anybody mentioned that you might have DID, you would adamantly deny it, freak out, and leave the board.

I think the reason that "inner child" threads on BPDR bother you is because they trigger your fears about having DID. Therefore, you try to discredit those who speak of such things to allay your own fears.

That's my opinion. . .take it with a grain of salt.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Denim, I don't know you well at all. But I find some of what you say pretty presumptuous. You say you would like the community to be on "good behavior". I find that rather insulting. Maybe it's "my stuff' but what gives you the right to request something so subjective? This is a recovery-based board, and people are all in different places. What do you consider "good behavior?" If I were a new person and read that, I'd be out of here in a minute. I would not think of this as a very safe place. You come across to me as very judgmental, which I don't appreciate.

You said you came back here to check back up on us. What did you think you were going to find? This is a BPD recovery board, be realistic. We have problems. We are learning how to deal with them. We have issues and we come here to learn how best to cope with them. Nothing is stagnant. I hope your friend can see past what you seem to see and does work towards her recovery and that we can help her.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 9:43 pm 
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My point being:

You ran away from the opportunity to confront your possible DID, both on the board and by quitting therapy whenever your therapist mentioned DID.

Isn't that being "stuck in the same place"?

People who feel superior to others are often humiliated when they realize that they too are subject to the same weaknesses and failings that they accuse others of.

Did you leave BPDR solely because it wasn't "healthy" enough for you, or did you leave, in part, because being here was bringing you face to face with some of your strongest fears about your mental condition? Was it a flight from the dysfunctional people here. . .or a flight to avoid seeing your own dysfunctions as well?

Why not chew on that for awhile?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:26 pm 
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I started a separate thread on "inner child" issues so they will not take this one off topic.

By posting the original topic, I was not trying to imply that no one is allowed to be symptomatic ever. I agree that it is bound to happen from time to time. What I hope to see is the community responding in a healthy way and not accepting the behavior to the point that it keeps a person stuck where they are. As we know, attacking behavior is never appropriate but I think that too much babying can also be harmful. There is this impression that some people are strong enough to work on themselves while others should be permitted to act out because they can't handle looking at their behavior and how it effects others.

Let's not confuse "acting out" behavior with "lack of progress" because I don't think I accused anyone of not making progress while I clearly indicated that I am disappointed that acting out behavior is still tolerated from people who have been here long enough that it should be a far less common occurence. The "I was taught to act this way so this is the way I am going to keep acting" justification is what I see keeping people stuck more than anything else.

There are far more people who may be working on the same issue that brought them into therapy in the first place who are at least able to accept personal responsibility for their actions and work towards change. I am aware, emergingtoo, that I have had my own "freak-out" moments and it is people like you, who have been that "voice of reason" for me on a number of occasions. You are an excellent example of someone who is working hard on recovery and not causing major disruptions to the board in the process. I wish I could agree with you that I left because it was too difficult for me to process my own issues but I made the decision to leave based on the actions of one person I could not avoid nor could I watch act out and then avoid responsibility every way imaginable. I keep returning hoping things have changed but I am still seeing the same thing happening over and over again. When one person is involved with the majority of the conflict on the board, I think that I am safe to assume that I am not the only one who has found this person's behavior intolerable.

I am glad that people here see me as strong enough that they are comfortable enough to confront me on things in a caring way because it has helped me grow. It is unfortunate that not everyone can benefit the same way. I had spent many years hiding from my dissociative symptoms and avoiding therapy for fear it would come up and when it did come up I was having a very difficult time dealing with it. It is still hard knowing that people will use it against me but I am able to take a closer look at it and learn more about it now.

The longer I stay away, the more and more I am an "outsider" here. I am far less invested in the community as I once was, which is healthier for me. I really don't have the "right" to ask anyone to do anything for my benefit or anyone else's benefit. No one has any obligation to me and I have no obligation to anyone else. Everyone has the right to stay as sick as they want to be and to excuse it in whatever way they choose. People are free to manipulate and be manipulated without it causing me any personal harm. It is not about me.

I sent the person I referred an e-mail "disclaimer" and that should be enough. This is what I told her: "I have to admit that I am already having regrets about referring you there without having checked it out more recently myself first. There are a few people there you may want to ignore. They have been stuck in acting out mode for years and the community seems to tolerate it, perhaps even identifying with it. If you can weed through and avoid the drama and conflict that some people are constantly involved in (one person in particular has been involved in conflict since she first came and she is the reason I am no longer there) you might find some good from the site. I think it helps to know that you are not the only one struggling with BPD. I had wanted to welcome you there but I can't tolerate the one person I need to avoid (she is what you would call an emotional vampire) because I see her sucking up everyone else's energy and she posts everywhere so that she is impossible to avoid (what you would call attention-seeking behavior)."

BPDR is what it is and it has nothing to do with me, except that I have to live with myself for referring someone here when I can't tolerate being here myself.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:32 am 
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Curious, Denim, since I don't know you if you only respond to the posts of people who have helped you?

I see a number of concerns have been posted by a variety of people yet the only person you directly respond to by name is one you claim has helped you.

Quote:
This really was not a "hate" message to or about anyone in particular. I did not intend it to be passive-aggressive but given the alternatives of communication styles I have to choose from in order to communicate this type of message,


I don't really believe this Denim. It's really not about anyone (or two or three) in particular? C'mon.

If true, it says you don't see this community recovery oriented. It says that we tolerate keeping people stuck. I see that as a huge slap in the face to every member that has prodded, and poked, challenged and encouraged another to move forward. I see it as a huge slap in the face to Ash herself.

Moreso, I wonder why you feel a post like this, when you are NOT an active member here of late, is of any benefit to us. If you wanted something better for this community then why not be a part of it and do what you can to shape or influence it?

If everyone came along voiced their discontent (whether on a board, or in real life) told everyone how they were failing and then took off- what would be accomplished?

Maybe some are stuck but doing a hit and run- attacking an entire community because of one or two people.. WOW! (yeah , I'm where Ash was)

I also really wonder why people have opened up a post to help you work thru things. That to me, seems beyond ironic. I would be considering twice doing any work with someone who feels this community isn't working toward the good of others and who choses to poke in every so often just to voice their discontent.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:50 am 
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ibfuddled wrote:
Quote:
As I see it, the people who don't relate to the inner child idea, it's not that they don't have this part that some call an inner child. It's that they don't understand it and relate to it in ways that fit with the inner child idea.


Well, let me be first to dispute this claim. I understand the notion at least as well as most who write about it here and my idea is that as an "entity" it does not exist.

Puzzling that you say "let me be the first to dispute this claim" (after quoting me) and then what you say after that is either neutral to what I said or agrees with it, and mostly agrees. I certainly never claimed that this "inner child" is an entity. Nothing you said contradicts my viewpoint that I expressed.

And I do appreciate what you added. Good insight.

(Denim, I'm not meaning to be talking about you rather than to you below. I do consider my below words to be addressed to you, but also to the group as a whole, thus the use of 3rd person.)

What Denim first said about not having an inner child, her idea seems to be that some people do, but she doesn't. My response is, to the extent that this "inner child" idea points to something real (not an "entity", but something that exists), yes, she too has an inner child. It's not something others have and she doesn't.

And yes, I do think the idea can be abused.

And I don't see that people here have used the idea to try to escape responsibility. I have seen people using the label to help express the disconnectedness inside themselves.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:52 am 
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Oops... ignore that... my post didn't post, and when I tried again I put it in the wrong thread. So ignore that and read it in the other thread. :) Or, okay, read it either place, but put any replies in the "inner child" thread. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:59 am 
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Denim Blue wrote:
I have to live with myself for referring someone here when I can't tolerate being here myself.


By "here" do you mean the Forums? BPDR is more than just the Forums.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:38 am 
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Denim Blue wrote:
There are a few people there you may want to ignore. They have been stuck in acting out mode for years and the community seems to tolerate it, perhaps even identifying with it. If you can weed through and avoid the drama and conflict that some people are constantly involved in (one person in particular has been involved in conflict since she first came and she is the reason I am no longer there) you might find some good from the site. I think it helps to know that you are not the only one struggling with BPD. I had wanted to welcome you there but I can't tolerate the one person I need to avoid (she is what you would call an emotional vampire) because I see her sucking up everyone else's energy and she posts everywhere so that she is impossible to avoid (what you would call attention-seeking behavior)."


See, this is what i mean. This is a passive aggressive attack meant to hurt a particular member. Anyone who has been here for awhile knows exactly who you are referring too. It's cowardly, and is an expression of anger towards this person.

Attention seeking behavior can come in all styles. Flat, unemotional posts meant to elicit strong feelings from others (your style) are just as much attention seeking as those from your so-called "emotional vampires"

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:21 am 
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I don't know who Denim means. And I don't need to know.

What if, instead of making negtive assumptions about her intentions, we make positive assumptions? Or, better yet, none at all?!

What if we remove the premise that Denim's purpose is to engage in passive-aggressive behaviour and simply look at the words she's posted? Would we then be able to focus on "How do I deal with regret?" or "How do I deal with my discomfort in this setting?" or "I'm having trouble dealing with the practice and concept of being stuck in a particular place"?

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