Home  •  FAQ  •   Forums

It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 7:21 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:48 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
jodyisme wrote:
i tend to think, due to the original purpose of this board, we focus more on us, yes, but it doesnt give blanket approval to say anything we please or do anything we please.




I think I have agreed that you are right. And just because I hate another person's bad behaviors, or they have acted in a way that I see as wrong, that doesn't give me license to react without responsibility, either. It's not only my responsibility to act respectfully towards another, but it's also my responsibility to learn to control my own reactions so that I don't act in the ways I don't like, regardless of what another does, because if I do react in these ways, how can I expect another not to?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:02 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 1800
Location: texas
i didnt really post this to you or about you, aqua. our exchange and then subsequent board stuff got me on this subject..since BG had asked and was talking about it. i realized a lot comes down to only 1 or 2 things at the core of communication.

you cant expect another not to, however, i am one who will not name call back or accuse or bad mouth anyone just because they did it to me. i hate it so bad, i simply wont call another anything bad.

_________________
"no one can walk on you unless you lay down first"
-old saying-


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:06 pm 
New Member
New Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 61
Location: USA
I'm thinking, as a listener, if someone says "Ellen, you are X", rather, than, "Ellen, you seem to be X", or "Ellen, I see you acting as X" or "Ellen, I think you are X", it's good for me to see what's behind that.

Do they think they know what I am like and are trying to tell me, thinking it's for my own good?

Are they angry, with their statement being more a reflection of that than of their general viewpoint?

Are they actually coming from a spot of humbly expressing their viewpoint, knowing their viewpoint is at best an incomplete reflection of who I am, but not articulating that in their words?

Do they mean it as playful teasing?

(These are the kind of things where the differences are much more likely to be clear in face to face encounters than they are in writing.)

Instead of getting immediately defensive, I can talk with them. Maybe ask where they are coming from. Maybe share my own differing view of myself.

And as I find out more where they are coming from, and how they respond to my sharing my own view of what they said, I can decide how, and if, to proceed further.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:10 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 1800
Location: texas
i am so glad you can do that, MR. maybe someday i will get there also.

but since i was born, this has been done to me. i AM this and that and its always something shitty. i dont know if i will ever be able to handle it from someone at the moment. i can after time passes, easily. at the moment it happens, i cant. it brings out my ptsd fight stuff, due to my childhood shit.

somedays i hate cptsd so much.

i always admire how you think. its very encouraging for me when you share it.

_________________
"no one can walk on you unless you lay down first"
-old saying-


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:12 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
jodyisme wrote:
i hate it so bad, i simply wont call another anything bad.


jody,

This is where I am seeing the problem. Do you think hating is healthy?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:14 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 1800
Location: texas
hating a certain behavior? dunno healthy or not, i am just being honest with why i wont do it to another.

i am a self injurer more than a abuser, most times.

what problem do you see?

_________________
"no one can walk on you unless you lay down first"
-old saying-


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:31 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
There's where the problem lies.... you hate when people say you are something. That's what you could work on, learning not to hate when people say you are something. It doesn't mean it will give others license to call you things, nor does it mean you can't draw a boundary on certain behaviors. But to hate when people call you something leaves you in a place to be manipulated. Because if I want to pee jody off, all I have to do is say she is something (and I have nudged at people like this in the past, I admit, because I had my own issues). Also, it leaves you in a vicarious spot, because everytime someone says you are something, whether it be because they don't know any better, or because they have issues themselves, or because they just feel like getting a reaction from someone, you will have to feel hate and anger and whatever other strong emotion this brings about, and then you will have to get all up in arms and wonder why justice isn't being done against this awful person who said you are something. Whereas if you fix the fact that you hate it when someone says you are something, you won't have to react at all. You will choose how you react, and eventually this will probably lead to a change in how you feel when this occurs. And you will be in control, and not so easily manipulated.

Hate is never a good thing for anyone. It causes all sorts of problems in society.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:15 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 1800
Location: texas
i know all that. obviously, you have not read much of what i post and what i work on. or what i own is my own stuff.

but,,,ty anyways........

naw, you cant pee me off any longer. been there, got it dealt with. its only the surprise times that get me now. im past the predictable stuff. now i expect it, which means the shit wont work on me. only when i dont expect it from someone i trust that it will still floor me and i end up with a reaction.

sounds easy in your words but it isnt so easy for me. i could tell myself all day i can swim, but throw me in and i still cant swim.

_________________
"no one can walk on you unless you lay down first"
-old saying-


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:39 pm 
Retired SCL
Retired SCL
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 646
Location: United States
BG:

Re: Your sister insisting that you are lazy.

My brother insists that I 'am' A,B, & C, and no matter how much I argue with him or how much my actions demonstrate that I am not A,B, or C, he is invested in seeing my that way regardless of contrary evidence.

That is the role I play in HIS movie. He perceives me as having A,B & C traits/flaws, whatever, and has NO reason (or upside for him) to change these views, (which views he has apparently held for a long time).

I have finally accepted that I will likely never understand why he wants to view me the way he does. I have also accepted that his perception of me is not likely to change unless and until there is some benefit to him to change them = some big incentive, and there isn't, so he says.

I don't believe AB&C about myself are true, so him continuing to hammer it at me has far less effect than it once did.

I DO limit my interactions with him to what I can tolerate, knowing that he will likely say the things he has always said and will likely continue to act pretty much as he has already acted.

In a nutshell, it really does come down to a radical acceptance of the fact that I cannot change him or how he views me.

Perhaps that is where things are with your sister and you over this issue.

I still wonder why my brother chooses to characterize me (in HIS movie) the way he does, but that 'wondering', after having asked myself if what he was saying WAS true over and over, is now just a wondering about him and what could have shaped his views/perceptions, etc., and even that 'asking why' exercise I have pretty much given up on after all of these years.

It's just easier that way, and perhaps taking this view/stance may help you feel less distress when your sister says the things she does also.

Warmest regards,

Candle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:26 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 1800
Location: texas
candle ,,,re something you said.....i wonder why others (my H your brother etc) seem to need to do that?

you are this...i am that...seems they rather see us as such than understand no one is their behaviors.

arguing usually simply reinforces their ideas of their own reality about others. i have never yet found a way to change someones mind by discussing or arguing either. it seems a set idea to them. the more we argue, the more they say see how right i am? listen to you! very frustrating when its a family member or someone you really care about.

that is why i said calling someone by their behavior ends communication. it turns into he said she said or rather i think, you disagree thing. nothing better than that. most people dont like someone to disagree with their thinking...and defending will auto do that.

yet it brings to mind, with you and Bg esp, how can someone care about me when they think im this or that? how can i care for them when they dont like me? stuff like that...........

its complicated....

"""I have also accepted that his perception of me is not likely to change unless and until there is some benefit to him to change them = some big incentive, and there isn't, so he says. """ i know you said you werent asking whys any longer, but i probably will die saying why to someone..lol...why would someone like a sibling want to believe something wrong about their sister or brother? that is too odd for me to grasp.

ultimately, of course, it comes down to you choosing how to handle it and all, but it still gives him no right to say this to you.

_________________
"no one can walk on you unless you lay down first"
-old saying-


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:23 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
Candle wrote:
BG:
I have finally accepted that I will likely never understand why he wants to view me the way he does. I have also accepted that his perception of me is not likely to change unless and until there is some benefit to him to change them = some big incentive, and there isn't, so he says.



Who needs a pay-off to change their views? Ummm, well, since I think you're a jerk, because you stole my candy in first grade, I'm going to stick with that, because there's no incentive for me to change it..... I suppose in that way I'm liberal. Doesn't make any sense to me, but, so be it, I suppose.

Yea, I would say in that scenario, all one can do is accept it and go on. But I sure wouldn't worry about it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:56 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 2184
Location: Near the Cornfields
Yes, after reading these posts I think what I am feeling is that I don't think being honest gives you carte blanche to call people names and say nasty things. If someone called me lazy, yes, I would be offended. I think there are rules of etiquette. You can say "BG, you seem to be tired lately and not getting such-and-such done." That sounds a lot better than telling me I'm lazy! You can tell me all day that I shouldn't get offended if someone calls me names, but it's not gonna change how I feel. I know I will get upset. You are going to the core of who I am and saying I am LESS THAN. I know this may sound simplistic, but there is such a thing as trying to be Nice. There are ways to word things that help rather than hinder. When I post, I work very hard to make sure my words convey what I mean, without hurting anyone's feelings. I spend a lot of time on that. And if I feel I did hurt someone's feelings, you can be sure I'll apologize. I guess different people here have different ideas of what is appropriate behavior and words. I know for me, if you call me names you sure as heck are going to close down any communication I may have with you. I don't approve of name-calling and never have. I worked very hard to not raise my son that way and have never called my friends names. Those are just my values. If some people here feel otherwise, that's their wish. I'll just have to work around it. Fortunately, I don't see it too much on here.

_________________
Image

......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:07 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
Bordergirl wrote:
Yes, after reading these posts I think what I am feeling is that I don't think being honest gives you carte blanche to call people names and say nasty things.


Where did anyone ever say that being honest gives anyone a license to call people names?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:20 am 
New Member
New Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 61
Location: USA
Yes, people should be nice to each other. Yes, if someone calls me lazy, their choice to say it is their problem. Yet, I can choose to be offended or not. If I'm offended, that's my choice.

And, this thread is about communication on this message board. We aren't talking about being called stuff by our parents, or spouses, or husbands, or such. Although, even then, I don't have to take it personally.

Now, if someone calls me names (inaccurate, negative names), yes, that gets in the way of a cordial relationship, whatever the relationship. If someone calls me lazy, I'm not going to just continue on being friendly with them like nothing had been said.

But I don't have to let them affect my mood. I can say to myself, their viewpoint is their stuff. They are wrong, but I don't have to own it.

By changing my thoughts -- not taking something personally -- I can change my feelings -- not feeling offended.

I have the power to choose not to let what they said get to me, even while choosing not to continue communication (if that's what I choose).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:33 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
There's no argument, guys.

We have the responsibility to have empathy for others, and to act in ways that are adult-like, regardless of any situation that occurs. If we can't do that, then we need to figure out how.

Of course we will make mistakes, but there is no reason to assume we can't do it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:37 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 2184
Location: Near the Cornfields
Quote:
Where did anyone ever say that being honest gives anyone a license to call people names?


No one said that Aqua. I just said this in my post, that's all. Just something I wanted to say about how I feel.

I agree with you MR. I guess I was just trying to say that you get more flies with honey than with vinegar. I don't want to belabor the point. Just my point of view.

I'm learning to step away more than I used to. It's not the end of the world if someone thinks things about me that aren't true. I try to do the best that I can here. Can't do much more than that. It's a learning experience.

_________________
Image

......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:41 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
Bordergirl wrote:
Quote:
Where did anyone ever say that being honest gives anyone a license to call people names?


No one said that Aqua. I just said this in my post, that's all. Just something I wanted to say about how I feel.



BG,

I was just wondering exactly what you were responding to, because I couldn't see any tie with your post to the topic or to anything anyone else had mentioned....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:44 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 2184
Location: Near the Cornfields
It was just my own thoughts Aqua that I wanted to write out here. Just how I feel about certain things.

_________________
Image

......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:04 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
I agree with MR, for the most part.

I just wanted to mention that the way we conduct ourselves here is going to be different from the way we conduct ourselves elsewhere, at least if you are me. If I'm playing a MMORG, it's completely acceptable to curse, taunt, and do many offensive acts to others. As it is on many websites that I visit. My bf tells me I'm lazy and a pain in the ass. We get along perfectly great. lol. My point being, that to one person, being called lazy may be the end of the world, to another, it's nothing. I'm a lot more careful here than I am irl, because for one, there are some complicated, well-developed people here, for another, I try to learn how to conduct myself here by looking at examples of others who do well. Most of the people I know irl couldn't care less whether I think they are lazy or not.

And all in all, I think some people could loosen up a bit. Have a little fun and stop worrying so much about what other people think, but don't be defiant in doing so. Just be. No agenda, no bs.

It depends on the environment and situation what types of actions are appropriate (specifically), and my suggestions were for people to try and deal with what they could possibly be met with here on these forums (without them going out into hyperspace and posting things not related to or emotional responses that haven't been thought out), not irl, and not in any other situation. But some actions, such as the Four Agreements, will work anywhere, and that's why they are suggested here as rules to live by.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:08 am 
New Member
New Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 284
Location: SouthEast
Hey MR~

Yes, thank you for clarifying. What you meant wasn't what I perceived to a certain extent. But now I think I understand.

When I was out in Utah for my SIL's funeral, my OL Sis (the one that is stealing from our Dad who has dementia) told me that I have "Frog Eyes".

Frog Eyes?! Is that the best insult she can come up with? I just about died laughing (inside). What are we, 3 again?! (This same sister would mercilessly tease me that I had Marty Feldman eyes when we were young.)

I turned to her and said, "Why yes, and I think they are beautiful." Because, well, I do. (I've been told that I look like a blonde Kate Walsh.) It left her speechless. I really don't care what she thinks of me or how she does perceive me.

After hating just about everything about me and myself for years, it feels really good to actually like myself.

I like Ash's definition of LAZY.

We are so much more than just one adjective; we really are. No one is just LAZY and no one is just BPD - we are a mixture of so many different things at different times. Lovely shades of gray. Although there are some traits that all of us have that do help to define us.

For instance: GH is a home body. She loves animals. She can be "wordy".

_________________
Progress not perfection.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ...
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:18 pm 
Retired SCL
Retired SCL
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 646
Location: United States
I think Jody, Ellen, Aqua, Julie, BG and everybody have made really good points and I don't disagree with any of them.

My point was simply that, in the example I gave, my brother lives by a separate set of rules than I do, and my choice was to have nothing to do with him whatsoever or to accept him the way he is and to change my thinking and emotional reaction (and then subsequent response) about and to what he says.

About two months ago he said the worst things he has ever said to me, (and that is really saying something :shock ), and I almost ended our relationship but didn't.

I did the radical acceptance thing, stayed away from him physically, but interacted sporadically on the phone, and then, all of a sudden and out of the blue, he 'essentially' retracted what he had said (and stressed that he believed at the time) by totally denying ever having said or thought anything of the kind (and, in fact, said he thought just the opposite), when the subject finally did come up again.

In the intervening time, I had discovered that I did, in fact, love my brother as close to unconditionally as one can, and also decided that, while I don't have to like him all of the time, it simply was not what I wanted to eradicate him from my life, despite everything.

I don't know what he thought in the same intervening time, but he appeared to have had a shift or have recognized that he had gone over a line that was unacceptable even to him.

If I had pushed it and tried to extract some kind of apology, I believe, given who HE is, it would have been gaime over, and I had already decided that that is not what I wanted.

He and I are all we have 'relation' wise, so ...

I think, [to Ellen's point about relationships/interactions here at BPDR], the same sort of balancing comes into play, but to a far, far less degree. In my case, clearly I wouldn't take from anyone here what I have chosen to take from my brother, but the principles encompassed in the Four Agreements (re: not taking things personally, etc.) and accepting (or not) people for who they are certainly does play an important role here as well.

I also agree that that balancing and weighing and what each person decides re: what they will tolerate and what they won't, etc., is a very individual decision and that, absent a breaking of the ROE's, etc., it really does still come back to each of us and is not, ultimately, about the other person.

Oh, and Jody :)) = about the stopping in the 'asking why' department re my brother, it's sort of like with my Mom's suicide. I asked why until I didn't want to anymore, (because of running up against a sense of utter futility and a belief that I will never really have an answer).

Yes, my bro. is still to have the 'why' questioned posed to him, but he's not going to answer it, and I have decided that I just don't need to ask him anymore. At this point, at least on some levels, (but not all), it just doesn't matter why anymore.

To the extent I say it still does matter (the why of it), it's more about a concern feeling for HIM rather than me, especially about some of his more shocking beliefs. I don't think they lead him to being happy, but, after I've done all I can do, I just can't change that either, (as much as I want to and have always wanted to).

8-)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 7:20 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 2184
Location: Near the Cornfields
I've just read all of the posts. And I can understnad yoru situation very well Candle. It made me realize why I think my sister says the things she does. First, she has no boundaries with us. We are identical twins. She feels she can say or ask anything she likes. I may not like it, but she doesn't care. That's the bottom line. She doesn't care. And I think she tells me that I'm lazy to make herself feel better about herself. It's her little game. So be it. I can limit my time talking to her. I can cut short conversations. But I know she isn't going to change. I dont' expect her to - Radical Acceptance. However, I am not giving up our relationship.

As far as other people go, that's my choice. I can walk away and laugh at what someone says. I can get insulted. I can ignore them. There are many things I can do. They're all my choice. Of course I can also learn not to take things so personally. I may scratch my head and wonder why someone would say such things to me, but I don't have to take it seriously.

I think if we have a core feeling about ourselves - core validation of who we are - then these things won't bother us so much. But I know as someone who has BPD, my core isn't as strong as it could be. So I have a problem not taking things seriously. Honestly, if I were in such great shape I wouldn't be here or in therapy in the first place. If I had such a wonderful sense of who I was, why would I be here? So yeah, I'm going to get upset about certain things. If I grew up with my parents saying over and over to me, - BG, you're this, or BG, you're that - how could I get over that so easily after hearing it for years? I'd have to be a magician or a miracle-worker! I have to work hard on this stuff. It's real easy to say in a post - "yeah, you shouldn't take things so seriously" but another to actually work on it. So I'm learning. But I can't do it overnight. It took 50 years for me to get this way - you think it's gonna go away in one or two years? As long as I acknowledge it I can work on it - at least that's better than where I was two years ago. But I can't wish it away. It takes hard work.

_________________
Image

......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:01 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
I'm different in the way that if someone shows me they don't care about my feelings or thoughts (and I have evidence of my siblings showing me they don't), then I just have no need for them. I am not going to be around to be stepped on. That's why I haven't spoken to any of my siblings in 3 1/2 years and don't plan to, and honestly, I can say I don't care. I'd rather invest myself emotionally and spend my time in relationships with people who care about me. That's why you'll never see me talk about my past with my siblings.... I got over it, got them out of my life, and I don't care. And there's no reason for me to bring it up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:12 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
It's not only my responsibility to act respectfully towards another, but it's also my responsibility to learn to control my own reactions so that I don't act in the ways I don't like, regardless of what another does, because if I do react in these ways, how can I expect another not to?[/quote]

To end my own interaction, in this thread, I would just like to emphasize this statement.

Analyzing one's own behaviors to make sure they aren't doing what they don't like is utmost. To anyone who doesn't: I go back and read later what I've written and try to see any discrepencies between what I've said and what I've done. The expectations I place upon others must match what I do, else that makes me a hypocrite, and in my mind, I wouldn't deserve respect for being one of those.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:34 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 738
Location: Reality ~ It's a great place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there!
I weigh all comments and criticism against the source. If I hear something that seems to ring true for me from someone I think knows what they are talking about, then I am inclined to take them seriously. If I hear something that is obviously false from someone who has a tendency to spout off without any real knowledge about something, then I don't put any stock in their words. I don't even feel I need to defend myself against someone who is so far off base and has already proven themself as lacking credibility when their words drop off with a simple shrug and require no further response from me. The same thing goes for praise. I don't internalize praise very readily, unless I can agree that it is true and the source is credible.

I had a sixth grade teacher who taught me to begin sentences with "I believe the answer is..." since I could always be wrong, even if I thought my answer was right (I wouldn't raise my hand to give a wrong answer, after all). I still tend to use "it seems to me..." or those types of statements when making observations and I try to keep an open mind about other points of view.

_________________
The question of suicide:
Keep it a question.
It's not really an answer.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 50 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group