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 Post subject: Questions about punishing an "inner child"
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:18 pm 
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Somehow the idea of inner child came up in a thread I started on a different topic so I have been giving it some thought as it has come up more than once by more than one person. I need to do some reading to understand the concept better because the "inner child" stuff is something I have never related to myself. It was something that other people seemed to experience but I did not relate personally.

I have seen people refer to "soothing" an "inner child" and how they go about doing that for themselves. It seems to help in some way. I didn't do so well with the concept of "self-soothing" in DBT so I haven't really related so well to the concept of "soothing" an "inner child" either. I tend to shape my own behavior with more punitive methods.

One thing that I have found helpful to improve my behavior, both as a child and as an adult, has been corporal punishment. I think that my father had a hard time with self-control so that what was intended to be punishment would end up as abuse. It did change my behavior in desirable ways but there were some undesirable consequences to my overall mental health as well. I have forgiven him for his inability to control his rages and I understand that he was hurting me out of love for me, even if it seemed like he hated me at the time. There were times he did hate me and wanted to kill me but he never did so I think he loved me more than he hated me and that he would not have hated me so much if I had behaved better.

Years ago, the topic of BDSM came up on the board so I did some research to better understand the dynamics of that type of relationship. I am not into BDSM but I watched a movie called "The Secretary" about a woman who overcame self-harm by entering a BDSM relationship and that got me thinking about ways to end my own self-injury (something I have been doing since I was a young child). There was a link posted on the board to a website titled Taken In Hand and I found I could relate to what people shared in various articles and posts there. Since that time, I have given my husband permission to spank me as the need arises (neither of us even spank our kids because they are well-behaved without us needing to resort to physical punishment). This is not something that is done as a means of sexual foreplay, it is done as punishment and it hurts as it is meant to hurt. The benefit is that it leaves no scars (just bruising) and my husband is not as hard on me as I tend to be on myself. What we both discovered is that being spanked works for me and it helps him get through my resistance when I am doing things that are not okay and his words do not get through to me. It is in no way abusive since my husband has a hard time hurting me unless it is for my own good, much like throwing someone out of a burning building might break their leg but save them from burning to death.

I don't want this thread to go off topic on the idea of consensual spanking or BDSM because I am bringing up these topics in the context of the actual topic of this thread. I have been wondering if the spanking might be effective because of "inner child" issues. If I have an inner child, it makes sense that corporal punishment would be familiar as it was even practiced in school when I was young (I used to get paddled by the principal at school because my father insisted it was the way my teachers deal with my misbehavior and it was allowed at that time). I am wondering if this would be a sort of "inner child" need as opposed to an adult need, considering it is not sexual for me as it is for some adults who use domestic discipline.

Do any of you who relate to the "inner child" concept do things to punish your "inner child" at times when your behavior may reflect an "inner child" acting out or misbehaving in some way? Does it work to change your adult behaviors that could be viewed as being directed by an "inner child" in some way?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:07 pm 
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I don't think in terms of "inner child" because the idea doesn't really resonate with me, but I understand the meaning behind it and how therapeutic it is for others.

You said: "neither of us even spank our kids because they are well-behaved without us needing to resort to physical punishment."

Denim, why don't you spank your kids?

Perhaps they are blossoming into good little people because they are treated as if they are such, because they are loved and they are nurtured, and not punished harshly when they make mistakes. They are guided and taught and helped. Why should you treat yourself - or your "naughty" inner child - with any less respect and compassion?

What would you do if your husband wanted to spank your children (humor me - think of it as a hypothetical)? Would you let him? Would you encourage him to do so? It doesn't sound like it. What do you two do as parents instead of that? What other method is humane and actually WORKS in shaping good behavior in your kids?

SO... why not treat yourself - or your hurting, wounded inner child who has known such hard abuse that was NOT her fault - with as much love as you do your children? Because you don't love yourself as much? What would it take take to love yourself more?

These aren't questions you have to answer to me, just for yourself.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:29 pm 
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What Oceanheart says is much like what I was thinking, though she said it better than I would have.

Another thought. I do honestly see the spanking as a step forward, in away, in that it doesn't cause injury.

I do see you, though, as trying to come to an understanding of where you are at, and I don't really have much to add on that.

I do wonder how the idea of discipline (as in parents disciplining a child) fits into all this.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:23 am 
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I don't spank my kids because I am afraid of giving myself permission to hurt them in anger. As a teacher, I learned other methods for dealing with behavior issues and my children usually respond pretty well. I would allow my husband to spank my children, although it has taken me a long time to trust him that much (we have been together 19 years). When I first had my oldest daughter, I made it clear to him that if he ever hurt her I would have to kill him. He has lightly swatted my younger daughter from time to time to get her attention but it has not been anything painful - she cries if you reprimand her so she does not need to be hit. My husband was not spanked as a child so he does not spank our children either. He was also a well-behaved child and nothing like me.

Perhaps if I had been more responsive to other methods, I would not have needed to be hit either but the fact is that I was a bit of a trouble-maker. My mother used to break light weight paddles and brushes on me and I would smugly tell her "that didn't hurt" instead of learning the lesson she was trying to teach me. She then left it up to my father to discipline me, although I remember that she did beg him to stop once, but then he beat her unconscious (I thought he had killed her and nearly called the police) so after that she would obey when he told her to leave the room. After the beatings my mother would help us clean up (I usually peed my pants and there would be blood on the walls at times) and make sure nothing was broken (he broke my arm when I was four and she waited days to take me to the hospital but she was more careful after that). She kept saying that if he ever did it again she would leave him but the next time she said the same thing and we never left.

Anyway, I am not talking about abusing an "inner child" but rather using appropriate means of discipline to correct bad behavior, such as shoplifting or things like that. Spanking seems to be an effective means of punishment when words don't get through. I am just wondering if it could be an "inner child" that responds to being spanked. I have wondered why it works when it doesn't make total sense to me why it does.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:25 am 
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Hi Denim,
Reading what you wrote has sort of tweeked some feelings inside of me. I relate to this to a degree anyway. I am not sure either of the inner child, inner parent, and inner adult; however, I have had some therapy when these phrases were used. I will respond as if there really is an inner child so to speak. I do think it is the inner child that responds to the pain of punishment. It seems that when we have been raised with physical punishment that got out of control it stays with us in that it seems, at least to me, to calm me down or put me in a state of maybe numbness or something. I can't describe it, but it is a calmer state. I think at some point I learned to dissociate from the pain as a kid, but I'm not sure I would do that now or not. I realize at times I annoy my H and somewhere deep down I want him to manhandle me or slap me.

Do we feel that the our inner child is getting taken care of or being paid attention to, even though it is hurtful? Does that remind us of the attention our inner child got when we were truly children? Does it "slap" us back into a calm reality state?

Sometimes I feel that I get into different states of mind and can't find my way out. Maybe physical pain brings me back so to speak.

That all being said, I can't say that seeking out physical pain as an adult is healthy. I think it could be a way to cope with difficult feelings or states of mind.

What is the substitute?

If love is a substitute, it never seems to be enough. And it is difficult to get enough without smothering somebody, including husbands.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:23 pm 
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Denim wrote:

Quote:
Since that time, I have given my husband permission to spank me as the need arises (neither of us even spank our kids because they are well-behaved without us needing to resort to physical punishment). This is not something that is done as a means of sexual foreplay, it is done as punishment and it hurts as it is meant to hurt. The benefit is that it leaves no scars (just bruising) and my husband is not as hard on me as I tend to be on myself. What we both discovered is that being spanked works for me and it helps him get through my resistance when I am doing things that are not okay and his words do not get through to me. It is in no way abusive since my husband has a hard time hurting me unless it is for my own good,


Isn't your H quite a bit older than you are?

Do you think that you are regressing into the past?

Bruising? "This is for your own good!"

Denim, I cannot see how this can be "good". It sounds like abuse to me.

Do you think it would be much better for your H to treat you like an adult? To set aside a time and discuss with you what is an issue and vice versa?

You might want to work with a therapist the reasons that you are hurting yourself and just as importantly, the reason you have given your H permission to hurt you as well.

"Gosh, I didn't have dinner ready on time, so my H punched me in the stomach (OR bruised my ass by spanking me so hard). It was for my own good! I had screwed up."

I am not following your justifications for this.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:44 pm 
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Denim wrote:

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I have been wondering if the spanking might be effective because of "inner child" issues. If I have an inner child, it makes sense that corporal punishment would be familiar as it was even practiced in school when I was young (I used to get paddled by the principal at school because my father insisted it was the way my teachers deal with my misbehavior and it was allowed at that time). I am wondering if this would be a sort of "inner child" need as opposed to an adult need, considering it is not sexual for me as it is for some adults who use domestic discipline.


Yes, I do think that by having your H spank you, you are punishing your inner child. (I wanted to clarify my earlier post.)

It may be an "inner child need"; I dunno. I just don't think that it is a healthy and/or balanced way to meet that inner child's needs, really.

Because, how old are you now? (Rhetorical.) And you are still "misbehaving"? So how has the corporal punishment changed your behaviors?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Perhaps, just perhaps, what your "inner child" really needs is a lot of love, acceptence and a whole lot less hurting.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:04 pm 
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This is a route I took for a very long time for very much the same reasons. but hell no absolutely not necessary. I prefer the have a word with myself and challenging myself to change up behaviours a very successful form of punishment. coupled with some soul feeding and nurturing. My self respect and self esteem grew at this point and some of the worst of my behaviour became very much something I did not want to do and definately didn't need the hassle of.

All this type of discipline got me was more abuse, more self neglect and more trauma to deal with.

Thing is also if it worked so well then why the hell would you ever step out of line again. Thing is it doesn't work as personal responsibility and self loving is not present through it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:56 am 
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The pain works much the same way it does when I use self-injury only it does not cause tissue damage and my husband does not go as far as I would take myself. The main difference is that I give up control and trust him to be in control so it does require an act of submission on my part, which has been good for building trust in our relationship. It is also only used under circumstances where I have had the opportunity to use self-discipline and that has failed for one reason or another. An example would be my shoplifting or spending money I did not have to spend.

My husband is significantly older than I am - 25 years older. In some ways we may have a father/daughter dynamic to our relationship. I am closer in age to my older daughter than I am to my husband. When we met he was a "father figure" to me and I was the daughter he never had (he had three sons, all older than me).

I don't think I am regressing into the past because I don't have any visual images of past events or anything like that. If I were regressing, I don't believe I would have the ability to submit without struggling. When I am spanked by my husband, it is very clear what I am being punished for and it is a valid reason, unlike when I was punished as a child and didn't always know why.

I do have an image of a gypsy girl, about 4 years old, whipped in stocks. It is this gypsy girl who is at the root of my shoplifting and I think the image has helped stop the behavior on a number of occasions when it comes to mind. I don't know where the girl came from or if she would be considered an "inner child" but I do know that I can't be shoplifting because I could end up in jail if I were to get caught. The use of corporal punishment has helped me change problem behavior so that I don't end up punishing my children (by being in jail) for my mistakes. This girl can not be allowed to steal through me and the physical punishment seems to get the message across better than anything else. It is an effective form of communication that crosses language barriers.

The use of physical punishment only takes place after words have not gotten through to me for some reason. My husband says that I "tune out" when he talks to me about something and I can get rather argumentative. I also get willfully disobedient, such as doing something he specifically has asked me not to do. The pain seems to enable his words to "stick" so that I can recall them better. This helps keep peace in our marriage because I am not destroying our relationship through constant testing of his limits.

I think the reason I step out of line is not because the punishment does not work but because it is not consistent enough. As long as I get away with something, such as shoplifting (which is like reverse gambling since you win instead of losing every time), I continue to do it. If I am not able to get away with it, by being punished rather than taking the risk of getting caught and locked up in jail, then I stop doing it because I want to avoid certain painful consequences.

This is not something I have ever brought up with a therapist. I don't think I would would mention it to anyone who might suspect I was being abused in any way because I am not being abused. I have done enough reading on the subject to know that there are plenty of woman who submit to their husbands in this way and they do not have any mental illness. I do not think it is an appropriate topic for discussion in therapy, unless it came up in the context of something that is related to therapy. I brought it up here in the context of the "inner child" stuff because I got to thinking that it might have to do with "inner child" versus adult needs.

I don't really want to debate whether or not it seems like a good idea to have physical consequences for my actions. The fact is that it works for me because that seems to be how I respond the best. The reason I brought up this topic was to find out if this might be an "inner child" thing as opposed to an adult thing. I have not tried anything that would be considered "soothing" an "inner child" but it could be that I am punishing an "inner child" without even realizing it.

I am not suggesting parents should spank their children so please don't leap to that conclusion as a result of this thread. What I am talking about is something that takes place between consenting adults and wondering whether or not it might have something to do with "inner child" needs.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:06 am 
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Denim -

Wondering if you would give some information on how you see/view your inner child that you refer to in this post. I have not really heard of an inner child being referenced in the fashion you seem to be doing so here.

Actually, what comes to mind, much more clearly for me, is that this punishment behavior is something that one of your dissociative parts relates to (and comprehends) very well, while other dissociative parts are accepting (not protecting you from).

For me these concepts have always been distinct. From the bit I know of you, it seems you do a lot of research into subjects of interest to you. I am wondering how you distingish these 2 different concepts- both of which relate to aspects of ourselves that we are not always conscious of and both of which require we learn of them; work with them; and learn to blend ourselves into one being.

Perhaps this really should be for a separate thread - I will let you make that choice, but, I feel it is appropriate given you have brought up the subject.

This isn't a debate of any sort for me, I am trying to understand 'inner child' as you seem to be defining it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:40 am 
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I tend to see things on a continuum, more or less healthy. You have choosen something that is more healthy than what you were doing before, but still not at the healthy end of the continuum.

Ultimately, whether a behavior is healthy to give up depends on if the behaviors that would replace it are healthier or less healthy.

Now, back to the inner child topic. I commented in the Inner Child Work ? how for me personally I see the inner child idea relating to my own dissociation.

Quote:
or if she would be considered an "inner child"

If I understand the inner child concept right, there's no "an inner child", but "the inner child". One inner child only. I do know there are people with DID that have multiple child aspects, but that's not the same as having multiple inner-childs. Perhaps in such cases the inner child itself is fragmented, that is, dissociation within the "inner child" part of the mind rather than just between that part and other parts of the mind.

It could be that this gypsy girl corresponds to your inner child or part of your inner child. (Corresponds not as in writing, but it's other meaning, something like matching up; just want to be clear which of the two meanings of corresponds I'm using there.)

I don't understand what "whipped in stocks" means. Not that I need to know details, it's just that I'm not sure if this is possitive, negative, or neutral.

(Ellen here [formerly MysteryRoad] with my new username.)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:43 am 
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Oops... missed the word thread in the 3rd paragraph after the link.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:05 am 
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The reason I am asking for some clarification is that I've never seen any one reference punishments or harm or any such thing when talking of an inner child- I've always seen references to such in a positive light- in drawing out ones more light/carefree side - ie child-like aspects- innocence;fun etc.. it has always been more on the spectrum of guiding one towards their geniune self (to use terminology referenced here so often).


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:24 am 
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Smilinginside wrote:

Quote:
Actually, what comes to mind, much more clearly for me, is that this punishment behavior is something that one of your dissociative parts relates to (and comprehends) very well, while other dissociative parts are accepting (not protecting you from).


When you "tune out" do you think you are dissociating? The only way for your H to bring you back is to hit you?

Do you think that was a common thing in your childhood?

I really like what Smilin wrote. Something you may want to read and study about.

EllenKMR wrote:

Quote:
Ultimately, whether a behavior is healthy to give up depends on if the behaviors that would replace it are healthier or less healthy.


What do you think Denim? Is letting your H bruise you better than the self harm?

The gypsy girl in stocks - I have an image in my mind of that. A 4 year old girl.

In my mind's eye, I invision taking that very young child OUT of the whipping stocks, taking her away with me to my home, cleaning her up, feeding her and talking with her. (Hey, it's my imagery - I can do what I want.)

And I'd want to nurture that child. Love and accept that child.

Do you have any photos of yourself when you were 4? Look at them, if you want to. What do you see? At this time in your life, would you want someone hitting or hurting the small you in the photo?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:28 am 
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denim, you have so much to grieve that you werent given as a child. same as my H has, such trauma and pain. i feel the pain for you and him.

this will be so hard, some never manage it.

what some people will do to a innocent child. they should be strung up.

sorry. my 2 cents. it just hurts me so much to hear about things adults can do to a child. and the damage it causes.

i think your insight into the inner child is incredible. huge insight. adults dont need punishing or someone in control. this is exactly inner child stuff.

the damage done by someone to a child can not be over-emphasized. it follows one thruout life.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:18 pm 
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LOL I just mentioned this in the spanking thread.... but did not read this thread before I mentioned it. I know another girl who is a borderline who used spanking therapeutically.

I went through a period where I wanted my bf to act as the father I never had. I wanted to act like a bad child so that he would show me he cared by stepping in and drawing a boundary on my behaviors. I enjoyed this. And I think it was therapeutic. I don't do this anymore. I needed it, I wanted so much for my own father to discipline me (because in my mind, it would've shown that he cared), and I wanted him to take control and act as a father. But he wasn't around to, and when he was, he played more of a friend role.

Do you think the spanking may be possibly engaging in a form of abuse? That would be one of my reservations with it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:22 pm 
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I need to do some reading on the "inner child" because I don't have a very good grasp of the concept at this point.

smilininside wrote:
Denim -

Wondering if you would give some information on how you see/view your inner child that you refer to in this post. I have not really heard of an inner child being referenced in the fashion you seem to be doing so here.

Actually, what comes to mind, much more clearly for me, is that this punishment behavior is something that one of your dissociative parts relates to (and comprehends) very well, while other dissociative parts are accepting (not protecting you from).

For me these concepts have always been distinct. From the bit I know of you, it seems you do a lot of research into subjects of interest to you. I am wondering how you distingish these 2 different concepts- both of which relate to aspects of ourselves that we are not always conscious of and both of which require we learn of them; work with them; and learn to blend ourselves into one being.

Perhaps this really should be for a separate thread - I will let you make that choice, but, I feel it is appropriate given you have brought up the subject.

This isn't a debate of any sort for me, I am trying to understand 'inner child' as you seem to be defining it.


I am trying to define the "inner child" for myself because I am confused by the concept now. I never thought I had an inner child and yet when someone suggested that I do but that I may not be in touch with it, I started thinking about how the concept relates to my experience. I think I may be dealing with something different, spirits as opposed to parts of myself. I was trying to reframe my experience in the context of the "inner child" concept but I don't think it is a good fit.

I don't think the child spirits are "aspects" in a DID sense. They came to me as a child, I did not make them up. In kindergarten I thought I wanted to be a gypsy when I grew up but I was told that was not possible because I have strawberry blonde hair, blue eyes, and freckles while gypsies have dark hair, dark eyes, and olive skin. So I decided that if I couldn't be a gypsy I would be a truck driver instead. My concept of a gypsy at that time was someone who got to travel a lot. I didn't even know the girl in my head from preschool was a gypsy when I met her. I don't remember when I learned she was a gypsy but it was years later. I think these are most likely spirits that got stuck inside of me somehow - they won't leave when I ask them to go away.

GuardedHeart wrote:
When you "tune out" do you think you are dissociating? The only way for your H to bring you back is to hit you?

Do you think that was a common thing in your childhood?


I don't think I am dissociating, just not paying attention. I have a hard time paying attention sometimes. I used to get in trouble for not paying attention a lot so it is something I have been working on for many years. My father would say that the only way to get my attention was to smack me upside the head so my husband hitting me may be the best way to get my attention. It was common in childhood.


GuardedHeart wrote:
What do you think Denim? Is letting your H bruise you better than the self harm?


Yes, I thought I explained that already.

GuardedHeart wrote:
Do you have any photos of yourself when you were 4? Look at them, if you want to. What do you see? At this time in your life, would you want someone hitting or hurting the small you in the photo?


I don't know if I have any pictures of me at 4 since my father burned everything when I left. I have some pictures my mother gave me but not very many and none of them are when I was 4. My father cut all my hair off in chunks when I was 4 so the only picture I remember ever seeing of that time was one of me with my calico cat. I probably got rid of that picture when he killed my cat so I would not think about losing her or my hair but I do still remember that picture. I don't think it matters much what I want because I was not this age when I was that age. I don't really feel very attached to pictures because they don't seem real to me.

AquaLite15 wrote:
I needed it, I wanted so much for my own father to discipline me (because in my mind, it would've shown that he cared), and I wanted him to take control and act as a father.


Maybe I do need to know my husband cares enough to discipline me. It does feel loving when he does it, even though it hurts. I am not afraid of him even though he is causing pain because I know he has self-restraint and will not go too far. It is very controlled and not a violent rage.

AquaLite15 wrote:
Do you think the spanking may be possibly engaging in a form of abuse? That would be one of my reservations with it.


No, it is not a form of abuse. It is a form of loving correction. They are more different than they are similar. I have given consent and I submit when the time comes. There is pain without violence. Not all pain is bad nor is it abuse.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:25 pm 
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Denim -

Interesting item that you commented on:

Quote:
I don't think the child spirits are "aspects" in a DID sense. They came to me as a child, I did not make them up.


Was wondering if I accurately interpreted this statement. Are you saying your understanding of DID "aspects" (your interpretation) / "parts" (my interpretation) are made up ?

---

Regardless of whether I understand the above or not, I hear you saying you are trying to comprehend the side of you that relates to punishment.

Maybe for now, 'what' or 'who' is involved isn't quite as important as why? Or do you feel all are important and you are trying to grasp just what this is and how well it fits into your childhood experiences?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:58 am 
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My understanding of DID is that the "parts" are made up in a person's head. That is why I have difficulty understanding exactly what these "aspects" or whatever you want to call them are - I did not make them up, they just showed up during my life and befriended me for some reason. I am most inclined to think they are attached spirits and so I am learning what I can about spirit attachment to help me understand the problem better in order to come up with a solution. At one time I suspected they were demons but I no longer think that is true. As far as I can tell, I did not create them myself. I don't think they came from my own head in my imagination.

I am trying to understand what it is about me that relates to being punished. It is like some sort of need I have and I was wondering if it could be an "inner child" thing. Maybe that is wrong, too. I don't know. I tend to confuse myself when I think too much but I wanted to explore the possibility that I have an "inner child" like other people. I am probably getting too far "out there" that no one else can relate to where my thoughts are taking me because I am losing myself.

I think that when I was a child I used to provoke people into punishing me, partly because I did not respond to verbal reprimands very well and partly because I may have wanted to be punished. I have always felt a need to punish myself so I think it could be related. Even in nursery school (preschool) I would do things to get spanked or locked in the cleaning closet by the teachers. I think I had a way of pushing the limits beyond what most people would tolerate and I ended up in trouble as a result. I can't say I was looking for trouble exactly, and yet I seemed to find myself in trouble quite a bit.

My parents were not the only ones I frustrated. The difference was that my father had a violent temper so he is the one who would cross the line from discipline to abuse. I don't think he was sadistic, I think I just challenged his parenting skills beyond what he could handle without losing his temper. I know that before he broke my arm when I was 4 (I broke the TV) I was already getting the belt so I can't remember ever being "spanked" by him. When we built our own house it became worse because he would grab 2x4's (some had nails in them) and electrical wiring (the multiple colored wires in the white plastic casing), which cause more damage than the belt. He would go into a blind rage until he exhausted himself and that is when it would stop. All I could do was cover my head and keep moving as much as possible to keep from getting hurt too badly. That is not what a spanking looks like, to my knowledge.

When I attended the in-home daycare with this Satanic couple, they took spanking beyond the pants down smacking thing, too. I would be tied to the bed and whipped (with whips or strings of beads) but then there was all the sex stuff that went with it so I am not sure if it was meant to be punishment for something I did wrong or as a way to get me to be more cooperative while they were teaching their son about sex with me. I don't find being spanked by my husband sexually stimulating so I don't think I have the whole pain and pleasure confusion like what happens in BDSM.

Anyway, I brought up the topic as a way of trying to figure this out for myself. I wanted to find what other people relate to but it does not seem there are many people who can relate so it was probably not a good idea for me to start this thread. I am trying to process what it is about me that feels a need to be physically punished, and yet I don't think I have come any closer to understanding this. I don't know if it is an "inner child" need or if it is something else but my guess at this point is that it does not actually have anything to do with the "inner child" stuff if what I was thinking could be an "inner child" is not actually the same thing.

Again, I need to read more about the "inner child" stuff before I try to apply a concept I know so little about. I am probably just being stupid trying to figure out something I can't even define at this point.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:15 am 
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AH, Denim -

I think perhaps that since multiple topics were brought up, this conversation has gone off on a couple of tangents which has made it difficult for you to get feedback on the information you seek.

I don't think you are 'out there' or alone in what you've experienced (tho I believe your experiences will be a 'version'/'takeoff' on someone elses or better- theirs on yours).

I, myself, believe you are on the right track in trying to understand what you've experienced and what aspect, as you call it, of yourself relates to this form of punishment.

Someone, or even a few others, I think, already touched on the fact that perhaps because of your history, the spanking is something you relate to in a somewhat positive sense (which you seem to agree with)- tho the whys you are still trying to - understandbly- uncover.

Myself, I tend to agree with the idea that because you were experiencing this early on, and it was a form of attention and being 'seen' perhaps, even tho it has extremely negative connonatation, it is something you've become accepting of on some level (I cant quite say comfortable tho that may be applicable).

This to me relates very well to DID, yet, I do not agree that DID parts/aspects are made up. DID is about dissociating and when you read text book information on DID it is validated that this is about splitting off into parts in order to survive various and extreme forms of abuse or other horrific experiences (but mainly abuse). Splitting is a form of survival. And splitting numerous times relates to the fact the human mind and spirit is capable of adjusting to extreme circumstances- this allowed you to do what you needed to in a variety of extreme situations.

Yes, there is a huge connotation around DID that people make up the parts- because there are indeed numerous people that 'hear the talk, so decide they will try to walk the walk'.. and it leaves the similiar connotation that 'all borderlines are attention seeking'. (ain't mental health issues fun!? not)

I think it is great that you are wanting to understand what you are experiencing. I think it was brave of you to post here. Your thread went in many directions and you've done your best to stay focused on what it is you want from it- (I personally find this hard to do when one of my threads gets pulled in a variety of directions)

One of the things that I think can help you get more 'focused' feedback is if some basic premises are able to be established so we are all talking within the same realm. From the little I know I think a few others here have experienced somewhat extreme abuse. I dont know how many others are DID; I dont know how their experiences relate to yours, but I do think there may be some common footing for a discussion if you wanted to focus for a bit on your history of spanking (which has become more clear as you've continued the thread); how it relates to abuse and how all of that relates to you today.

I understand your frustration in seeking out some understanding and feeling as if you are talking a different language from others. I also think perhaps trying to read with a very open mind might help because of the very nature of the subject. Of course, some people just wont be able to relate.

I do have a suggestion for you if you want more information of the specifics of what you wrote. I know youve said you arent comfortable other places but I feel you could get feedback that is more on topic- and that is by going to twhj.net and posting in the dissociate or healing journey forums. You will find people who relate; you will find a variety of interpretations -some just as unrelated as here- yet, I think they can help you put the pieces together better than those of us here can. They will relate to your gypsy girl- aspect/part/spirit - whichever one or combo she is; they will relate to your history of spanking (even indirectly); they will relate to changing forms of self-injury. I think they could help you fit your gypsy girl into your history and your current life better than we could.

I'm not saying go away- I am saying I think you will be related to on this much better. I think you can benefit from both boards. I think you can do some dual processing- hard a singular processing is.

I am not trying to end this thread. As a matter of fact, I believe others will come in with more responses since you've given us more information and a better understanding of what you are working on.

I can see how you chose to explore the inner child on this. I was not familiar with inner child work being related to punishment and that is what had me. I can relate- not first hand- to having been abused in the fashion you have; having a spirit/aspect that you identify with; finding some goodness out of abuse; and trying to relate what is going on for you today- how this punishment is actually a positive for you in some respects- with what you experienced when younger.

Atm I can't coherently put together an interpretation of taking the abuse and using it as a positive- so to speak. But I do understand how to you this spanking isnt a 'bad thing' because it is providing you the incentive to not do something more destructive.

Going back to here:

Quote:
I am trying to process what it is about me that feels a need to be physically punished, and yet I don't think I have come any closer to understanding this.


Give you attention ?

You equated love to it? (as others mentioned- it was the only time you could see/feel love - why else would so much pain be inflicted upon you?)

Is a form of self injury? (other feelings feel odd/worse- this one you 'get' on many many levels)

Can you identify any feelings/thoughts that come up prior to the need to be spanked today that are related to the feelings/thoughts of this gypsy girl ? (not sure I understood right- the gypsy girl was the one relating to all this)

Does it stop you from dissociating ? (are you familiar with the various ways in which you dissociate?)

Those are a few ideas that come to mind.

There is nothing wrong with you wanting to understand this and there is nothing stupid about what you wrote. I hope for your own sake you continue to explore this- whether here or elsewhere. I do think your topic- as it was presented- had many aspects to it and that each of us grabbed on to one that stood out for us. I think now with the above as a highlight and the other information you presented as background you can receive some more explicit feedback on what you are trying to work on.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:01 am 
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I guess I will step in here and share what I can. First off, I DO understand the connection between the inner child and punishment. For me personally, I have a deep-seated feeling that the inner child me is bad and needs discipline. I don't engage in any sort of self-injury or consensual punishment at home. But I very much understand the internal feeling that there is something inside me that is bad and deserves punishment. I believe this feeling about myself developed from the many years of excessive criticism I received from my dad. It also comes from guilt feelings regarding childhood se*ual abuse with a neighbor. I'd been stealing pennies, so in my child's mind, I deserved what happened to me. Since my parents did not reassure or explain that the abuse was not my fault, and attributed responsibility to my going to his house, I assumed that I was bad and what happened to me was my fault.

When you take those early conceptions of "bad self," and add into it other things such as being bullied in school and choosing friends who treat you badly, it reinforces your idea that there is something wrong with you and you deserve bad treatment. If the attention you get seems to always be bad attention, then you get used to it and think that's the way it is supposed to be. It very much solidifies your inner core feeling of being bad, defective, unloveable, etc . . .particularly for a sensitive child.

In Denim's case, she experienced a lot of punishment connected to her behaviors . . .and even punishment that seemed to come out of the blue. It would be very easy for her to conclude that she was worthless and bad inside. In fact, if she wasn't getting any positive affection and encouragement, she may have been so desperate for attention of some kind that she would act up, subconsciously believing that any attention is at least "something." Unfortunately, the punishments and feelings of being bad were reinforced over and over in her childhood. It is not surprising at all that she has a mental picture of a small gypsy child being whipped in stocks. She had a real experience as a child of being bound and whipped.

When she is tempted to shoplift and sees that gypsy child in her mind (which I think is a mental picture that represents her as a little girl -- inner child, if you want to call it that), she is making that connection in her mind of "bad child = punishment." And in some ways even now (as an adult in her marriage), she continues to see herself as a bad person who needs punishment. I very much think all of this ties together and is related to her very early experiences of punishment that have shaped her basic core belief of "I am bad and deserve punishment." That she continues to believe this is shown by the fact that she offers justification for the abuse she received at the hands of her father, saying that it was deserved because she acted up and was a bad child. In reality, it is not your fault. You were not a bad child. Yes, you may have acted up. Children do that. You may have done so deliberately in an attempt to get attention. But you were not a "bad child" who deserved abuse. The type of punishment you were given was extreme and undeserved.

Children tend to take blame upon themselves for bad things that happen when they do not understand what is going on. (Think about how many children feel guilty and to blame when their parents divorce, as though they caused it.) You probably felt like you caused your dad to abuse you because something deep in your core was bad. This was not true. But you accepted it as true. And it still feels true today.

I disagree that you shouldn't bring this subject up in therapy. I think that your father's abuse of you, what happened to you in daycare, etc., has had a very delibilitating, negative affect on your self of self. And the corporal punishment you and your husband have agreed on at home may not feel abusive to you, but it most likely still ties in to that early concept you formed of yourself as bad, acting out, and needing punishment. It's like a role you seem to have to keep playing out now, because it is so deeply ingrained in you. But it's based on your early mistreatment as a child. I believe this is a very, very important subject to discuss with a therapist.

Having such feelings of badness, it makes sense that the concept of soothing your inner child (or that gypsy girl part of you) seems foreign. If you feel she is basically bad, you are not going to be inclined to soothe her (soothe yourself). Rather than engaging in soothing, nurturing activities that would calm you down and make you feel good when you are in emotional pain, you may engage in activities such as shoplifting, which brings punishment. Your means of keeping yourself in line is to either punish yourself (as you used to with self-injury) or seek punishment from your husband . . .because you learned that such punishment is necessary to keep you from being a bad person. It makes sense that you would feel this way.

Your childhood was not one in which you were held, comforted, helped when you were in emotional turmoil. You didn't learn healthier ways of dealing with acting-out impulses in your childhood. You weren't given praise and affection for the good things about yourself as a child. So it makes sense that self-soothing (particularly the part of you that feels like a bad child - gypsy girl) doesn't click with you. How can you give to yourself the type of caring, understanding, and soothing that you didn't receive as a child? You need to actually learn to do it. You have to learn self-acceptance and self-love. And to realize that your feeling of badness is a distorted view of who you really are.

This subject is so rich, and has so much meaning. I truly encourage you to continue considering this matter.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:05 am 
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I conquer with the idea that the parts, or aspects (whatever the term) in DID are not "made up", but rather split off parts of the self. And the split is not something that happens consciously. The child doesn't consciously choose "I'll split off part of myself to protect myself". In fact, conscious awareness I think would ruin the benefit of this as a defense.

I know this is a side topic and not the main topic. I don't really have anymore to add on the main topic, though.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:29 pm 
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what ellen said. parts are created by the concious to cope with things the person can not cope with. in effect, people create them out of self defense and arent concious of doing it. because the concious cant cope, "someone else" is made up to cope. intentionally a "diff person" because the person cant cope as themselves. severe trauma is the cause.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:33 pm 
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I appreciate the meaningful replies. I think there is a lot of truth in the words. I am a bit triggered, in a good way, at the moment so I need to come back later to process. There is all this emotion going on right now and I need to wait for it to settle before I can sort out my thoughts properly. I can say that there is a lot of insight for me here. Thank you.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:33 pm 
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Nothing much to add to this work. I don't know much about the three key threads, discipline, DID, or inner child work. I tend to try to boil complicated concepts down to their simplest terms so I can deal with them. In the case of behavior change, to me it's a matter of replacing ineffective behaviors.... those that cause emotional or physical pain for any involved to get to the desired state... with more effective behaviors... those that get to the desired state without causing that kind of pain. It sounds like this is working for you right now, Denim. And that you might need to watch it closely to avoid future pain.

Mostly what I want to say is that I know good work when I see it and that's what I've seen in this thread. Denim, you could have bailed out so many times here, and you kept coming back and trying. All who responded kept coming back and trying again... thoughtfully, compassionately. This thread is full of hard work and great learning.

Sincere compliments to all of you. I think this is what BPDR is all about and why it's been helpful for so many.


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