Home  •  FAQ  •   Forums

It is currently Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:17 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: thread on spanking
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:09 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 1800
Location: texas
so as not to hijack denims thread, i wanted to voice my views on this.

spanking never works on a child to "teach them to behave". it teaches them to fear, to have anger, to use violence to get what they want. a child should never behave from fear. that is not why we behave. and when they get older, they wont know the reasons they should behave. the fear will be gone, except inside themselves. a spouse, a child wont do what they want--they will hit.

punishment should not be the goal. learning should be. natural consequences, if needed. usually kids will learn most on their own from the world around them. time outs,,,etc.

re inner child. they need love. safety. comfort. validation. will hitting accomplish any of this? will it make it worse? if your in pain or scared, do you want to be hit? or hugged?

children dont need violence to learn. some cultures knew this way back. some believe in violence and have produced the taliban and terrorists and hitlers of the world.

hitting just shows im bigger or more powerful than you. 2 hitting is called a fight, a power struggle to see who is "biggest" . that is not the lesson taught to kids who misbehave. why? because all thru life someone will be bigger or smaller than you. i guarantee it! the stronger cant hurt the smaller. thats wrong.

pain wont even teach a dog how to behave. treats and praise will. why would a child be diff?

my 2 cents. never hit a child. never hit anyone. its WRONG. never hurt your inner child. their pain is why we need to deal with them now. why inflict more? they need to feel power, not fear.

no one needs to resort to inflicting pain to "help" another to learn. if so, hell, teachers would have cattle prods to "help" teach!

abuse is a power trip to control another. need i say more? doesnt have to bring blood to be abuse. yelling can be abuse. to teach a child we do not need to take their power, or control them.

violence begats fear. fear begats loss of power. loss of power begats violence and need to control. its a cycle.

please dont hit. not anyone, not a helpless child. not ourselves or our inner children. safety begats inner power. inner power begats inner control. inner control has no need to control another.

no kid "needs" to be hurt to behave. no adult needs to be hurt to behave. another cant make another behave.

i cant tell you how this subject hurts me. i must speak out on it. maybe to keep one person from hitting another or their children.

the only reason adults hit children is because they were hit, and they feel no inner power. they feel shame and pain, and they in turn, inflict it on their kids. or spouses. or siblings.

bullies are bullies because someone bullied them. they were hit, so they hit another. you wont find a bully hitting if he wasnt taught to hit by someone bigger. they are in pain, and lash out. they didnt learn to behave from it, they learned to hurt another. or themselves.

please dont. parenting classes are available. books are out there. education is the key to stop this cycle.

_________________
"no one can walk on you unless you lay down first"
-old saying-


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:29 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 2184
Location: Near the Cornfields
I agree with you Jody. I never hit my son. I didnt' believe in it. I didn't want him to be scared of me and I didn't want him to learn to hit others.

My mother used to slap me and my sister in the face when she got angry. It was horrible. We got scared of her. I swore I would never hit my own kid. I don't see what good it does. Just gets your own anger out on someone else. Not good. My H and I have never hit each other. I have thrown things, or slammed doors, but never hit someone else.

_________________
Image

......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:43 pm 
Senior Community Leader
Senior Community Leader
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 633
Location: The biggest small town I've ever seen
I agree that physical punishment is not a particularly effective nor helpful/healthy means to teach behavior. Lord knows, it didn't work on me...I do however, have a slightly different take on things. I see small children as animals until they develop the capacity AND we teach them how to act as human beings. They don't seem really capable of reasoning and the logic of consequences for several years. Sometimes they are so wrapped up in the emotion of the moment that they seem to not even hear.

OK, how does a mother animal get her child's attention? With a touch. A firm yet gentle, meaningful touch. Mama Cat doesn't blister anyone's bottom, but she will deliver a well-aimed swat to instruct and discipline her kittens. And it works.

I believe that a single firm touch can get a child's attention when our words do not get through. A single swat on the behind to redirect the attention, disrupt the tantrum? Of the people I know who have healthy, balanced family dynamics and happy healthy children? Every single one of them believes that there is a time and place for physical reprimand. I just don't think this is harmful.

Not as harmful as the people who do not believe in "discipline" and who try to resort to reasoning with a screaming toddler (or worse, sit oblivious while she "expresses herself"). I have yet to see that approach work...Any trip to Walmart just continues to provide more evidence...

By the same token, you can also watch the effects of "discipline" gone overboard. Beatings, spanking sessions, tugging and screaming are ineffective and create more struggle and pain for both parties. Taken to extremes, it wounds people who may take a lifetime to heal.
Like so many of us here.

Children do not need punishment. They need firm, compassionate, loving instruction and correction. Children are not BAD or WRONG - they are uninformed and immature. It's hurtful to expect them to understand and behave from an adult perspective, and it's hurtful to punish them when their only real crime is not understanding.

_________________
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Image
Chester | Join the Catster community


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:46 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 1800
Location: texas
i was so heartened to read these 2 replies. so good to see yall understand.

""""Children do not need punishment. They need firm, compassionate, loving instruction and correction""" this is so true, and so well said.

_________________
"no one can walk on you unless you lay down first"
-old saying-


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:51 pm 
New Member
New Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 61
Location: USA
I'm glad you started this thread. Just because, I guess it's good to be able to address the topic without having to be addressing one person's specific mental health situation and where they are at.

I like what you have to say. I don't have your parenting experience, but it does make sense to me.

I do think the inner child doesn't need punishment. Discipline, yes, in a sense. But that discipline that the inner child needs is the self-discipline of the adult person who is in touch with the inner child and loves that part of herself.

I've learned to love that part of myself.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:22 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 1800
Location: texas
hey MR, ty for your views. i loved parenting classes and i think every kid should take them in high school. and on the developmental stages of children. too often we think of them as small adults who "choose" to misbehave. the truth is so far from that. kids dont even have conceptions of things until certain ages. fascinating stuff.

i used to be such a bad parent, i cant tell you. i am so sad still, that i didnt know or have the knowledge to be a good parent for so long. hell, when i was handed my son, i was told feed him and change him. talk about scared shitless! i thought when his belly button scab fell off, he would have a hole left! into his stomach!

i love what you said here """ Discipline, yes, in a sense. But that discipline that the inner child needs is the self-discipline of the adult person who is in touch with the inner child and loves that part of herself. """". oh, so true. who wouldnt love a little kid? innocent and trusting and wanting a hug, and to be listened to and heard.

there is a a huge diff in discipline and punishment. even punishment can be natural consequences of a action. getting hit for a certain action? that wont teach them why not to do it. maybe helps em try to not get caught again, but certainly not the reason it shouldnt have been done.

i think the child in us is the best part. the fun, the happiness, the sheer joy of living...

_________________
"no one can walk on you unless you lay down first"
-old saying-


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:43 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
I think that it depends on the personality, including genes. What works to train one person will harm another. We have become specialized and knowledgeable enough I think to read the child to figure out what works best for them individually. Of course, harsh abuse is rarely ever the answer, though I have known people in the past where this was the only thing they could respond to, which was never going to happen, so they won't be fixed in this lifetime. As I said, it just depends on the personality. Some children I think possibly respond well to small pats, but I don't really know, because I've never studied the subject. I have heard that ignoring tantrums is the best thing to do, and that's what works to train me.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:13 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 1800
Location: texas
hey aqua, you said """What works to train one person will harm another. We have become specialized and knowledgeable enough I think to read the child to figure out what works best for them individually. Of course, harsh abuse is rarely ever the answer, though I have known people in the past where this was the only thing they could respond to, which was never going to happen, so they won't be fixed in this lifetime"""

exactly what do you want to train someone to do?

harsh abuse is RARELY the answer, what are you meaning? what do you think abuse (the def means its harsh) will actually do? fix someone? how?

would you explain this please?

all abuse creates is fear. a temp solution to misbehaving,,,is all. someone is too damn afraid to behave in a way the other says is wrong. but that fear sits, and comes out. all things we have as negative will always come out later, and over and over, until the wound it caused is healed. the thing is the only reason a person/child would behave would be to that one person their afraid of. to others, the anger due to lack of self power would cause worse abuse to another.

when is abuse proper? where does it fit in in the fact that only us can "fix" us and how would another beating the shit outta us help this?

what personality is needed to respond only to abuse in order to be "fixed"?

im really curious about this view point you have. tyia*

_________________
"no one can walk on you unless you lay down first"
-old saying-


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:56 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
Ones in which people have such shallow emotions that they feel very little fear, such as psychopaths or people with antisocial personality disorder. It's really the only thing they found that changed them, but of course, it's a moral dilemma, so they don't use it anymore. Some of them can't learn any other way, and very few change anything unless their system has failed them. And then they just change their actions usually (because they aren't getting what they want), not their moral beliefs necessarily. That's why a lot of them are in jail, because they can't learn, and don't want to.

I don't think one can assume the same methods will work on everyone, as I said, I don't know much about child-rearing, but people's natural tendencies and the way they respond to environments are so different. I don't think the same methods will work the exact same with two different individuals, else two children in the same household wouldn't end up so different. But for the most part, I agree that physical punishments are abusive. I know some borderlines who have been spanked to learn, and honestly, it worked for them (of course they were consensual adults), but it would never work for me because I am a totally different personality. And heck, people are lining up in SF to be spanked lol. So I think also that one person's abuse may be another person's fun and games.

People are trained by their environments and their parents, and themselves, which is what we are all doing - retraining ourselves to act and think differently than what we learned to do initially.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:27 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 2184
Location: Near the Cornfields
I don't like the word "trained" when I think of bringing up a child. I didn't "train" my son. I taught him by example. I showed him love in my house by actions and words that he picked up on. He was "taught" how to be a decent human being and how to care for others, as well as himself.

_________________
Image

......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:28 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
Well, I think it's fine to use the word trained.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:32 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 2184
Location: Near the Cornfields
We all use different words and have different ideas. I know that when I think of "trained" I think of dogs. My child is not a dog. We all raise our children differently.

_________________
Image

......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:34 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
And that's ok, we all have our opinions. But sometimes it isn't necessary to post them when it doesn't really make a difference in anyone's recovery from bpd.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:38 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 2184
Location: Near the Cornfields
Why not?

_________________
Image

......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:39 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
Because this site is focused on recovery from bpd... and that's what we are here to do is recover, not state our opinions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:57 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
BG, I realize that it's ok here to state our opinions. I didn't mean to say it wasn't. I am just wondering what your purpose was in stating yours concerning the word trained. My purpose in stating my own opinion was 1) to show that things may not be as black and white as they appear to be in this scenario, 2) I stated that I was against physical punishments because I thought that someone would assume I was for them because I brought up a scenario where they worked, or where people did not think of a physical punishment as abusive.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:00 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
In other words, if you tell me you don't like the word "trained", what do you want me to do about that? So what? What was your purpose in pointing this out? And do you think it will help anyone else?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:15 pm 
Senior Community Leader
Senior Community Leader
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 633
Location: The biggest small town I've ever seen
I'm sorry to interrupt, but this thread seems to be going off track. Would y'all like me to split the discussion of word usage off somewhere else so we can all get back to sharing our opinions?

When we are sharing opinions, I do think it is reasonable to question others for clarification, but I don't think it's helpful to pick them apart or focus on one or two words that we don't agree with.

_________________
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Image
Chester | Join the Catster community


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:48 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 2184
Location: Near the Cornfields
Hi Minx. No need to split it on my account. Sorry for going off-track.

_________________
Image

......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:48 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
Hi, Minx.

No, that's okay, I think I said all I wanted to say, thanks. Back on track....

:)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:16 pm 
New Member
New Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:00 pm
Posts: 23
Location: none
I haven't read all of the replies... how could someone hit a child? I was nearly beaten to death as a child..... How could someone carry that on? Imagine an 8 foot giant slapping you around the place... it's the same with a child......

yeuch

_________________
Life is like a box of chocolates.... nah, it's not.. chockies melt and then wreck your head. But life is kewl.... it's not life that poses the problem; it's the head... work it out babes......
Smudg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:39 pm 
Senior Community Leader
Senior Community Leader
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 633
Location: The biggest small town I've ever seen
smudg wrote:
how could someone hit a child? I was nearly beaten to death as a child...

Really easily, unfortunately.

Lack of: restraint, anger management, other coping skills and on.
Ignorance.
Good intentions, bad decisions.
Family history - If that's how children are raised, then that's how children are raised. People can and DO pass on the lessons they learned from their parents (even the harmful ones).
Even an unrelated, uncontrolled BPD rage could lead to abuse from those of us who KNOW better.

I don't have children for many reasons and one of those is my temper. Even though I would not WANT to ever treat a child they way I was treated, I was not sure that I would be able to control myself when I blew my stack. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure that I WOULDN'T have been able to control my anger (back in the day). I grew up learning that it's OK to hit if you're mad, and I have issues with that to this day.

I don't really believe that most abusers are intentionally cruel or heartless. I think most of them don't understand (like we didn't) that the behavior is wrong...or (like us) they have trouble controlling their emotions and they lash out without thinking. Some just do what they learned how to do (like we did) without stopping to think about the merit (or lack thereof). And some of them are just selfish, not thinking about anyone else (like we can).

But then that gets me thinking...Does that make them so different from "us"?

_________________
Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off the goal.
Image
Chester | Join the Catster community


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:48 pm 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:00 pm
Posts: 991
Relating to what Minx said, sometimes people either aren't very good at putting themselves in the other person's shoes, or else, they just never think to see from the other person's perspective. Add to that being treated abusively in their own childhood and learning from example, well, I can see how abuse happens.

Also, I don't think hitting always equates to abuse. I could never hit a child, but, for, for someone for whom spanking was done as discipline, and they didn't feel it abusive, well, the idea of spanking their own children isn't going to seem so strange.

_________________
Ellen K.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:44 pm 
Senior Community Leader
Senior Community Leader
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2005 6:00 pm
Posts: 1613
Location: The Carolinas
I don't necessarily see spanking as abuse. A swat to the rear got my attention as a kid. But my mother never left me bruised or bloody. That's abuse. But I really think spanking can help in child rearing. Minx gave a great example of the mama cat. A firm but gentle swat. But I can imagine for someone who has been physically abused, any kind of hit might seem like abuse. I know when I have kids and the need arises, I will spank them. It gets their attention quickly at a time in life where reason doesn't exist yet.

_________________
As soon as you trust yourself, you will know how to live. -- Goethe


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:12 am 
Community Member
Community Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:00 pm
Posts: 861
See, that's the thing. I think some people respond ok to light spankings, and don't see them as abusive. I didn't respond well to spankings. It only made me more defiant. I responded well to being ignored when I was acting up. All in all, if there is a better way to raise a child, I would prefer it over spankings. But I can see where there would be certain situations and children where it would be appropriate. I am mostly against it, but that's not to say I wouldn't resort to it if need be.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group