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 Post subject: freaking out
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:37 pm 
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I'm really freaking out right now. I can't stop shaking. I just got off the phone with my sponsor. I was telling her that I had to go to this mental health clinic last night because I had a panic attack while driving on the freeway. I told them that I was afraid that I was going to hurt myself. She kept saying that she's giving me all she has. That she can't go down this road with me anymore. She said that this is probably an outside issue and that I need to call the psychiatrist. I kept apologizing and she kept saying that she was allowed to feel her feelings and that she doesn't appreciate me trying to passively aggressively control the situaiton. She said that once I get to my tenth step that she was going to start calling me out on my stuff. That my apologizing is trying to control other people. I guess when she said that I kept panicking that she wasn't going to be my sponsor anymore. She said that of course she would be my sponsor, and that it was her job to help me on the steps, but that she wasn't a doctor. She said that she's not my God. I've been praying like crazy recently. Helping newcomers. Volunteering at the homeless shelter. I was telling her that I was having a hard time getting out of bed. Anyway...I walked back to work (I called her on my break) shaking so bad that my coworker came up to me and started rubbing my back, asking me if I was okay, and then I just started sobbing. I don't know what to say to my sponsor. She told me that I give so much power to people as a way to control the situation. I don't know what to say to that. Everything I kept saying was making her more mad and more mad. I'm feeling so panicky right now. She said that she wasn't mad that she was just concerned. Then she kept saying that she has a right to her feelings. Every time I kept saying that I was sorry, she kept getting angrier. Now I'm at work and I can't calm down. She told me to make a gratitude list but that that would only be putting a bandaid on a bigger problem. I told her that I started getting into therapy again but she said that maybe I should try medication. But that's just her experience. Anyway..we're all going on a retreat this weekend. I'll see her tomorrow. But now I'm feeling so ashamed. I guess I was trying to control the situation. I just don't want her to be mad at me. I want to drink now because I'm at the level of being upset where I can't see straight. I am so upset. I know I have abandonment issues. I just don't know what to do. I need help. I can't stop shaking. Really bad.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:03 pm 
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OK. Start by taking some SLOW, DEEP BREATHS. At least 3. Get grounded. Notice the walls, the floor, feel your body on the chair. Think about the room you are in. Recognize that you are not in any danger. Try to set the emotion to the side, long enough to see the facts.

1. Your sponsor did not like a behavior of yours.

2. She has asked you to stop the particular behavior, and has told you how it makes her feel.

3. You believe she is angry, although she has told you she is not "angry," but is "concerned about you."

4. She has reassured you that she is not abandoning you. She has said she will continue to be your sponsor.

5. You will see her tomorrow.

Looking at the situation in this light, can you see that you might be over-reacting a bit?

Sure, it feels awful to be in a state of upset, and then to have somebody we count on tell us that they don't like how we are acting. It makes us feel bad and increases our stress at the moment. But the relationship is not over. She is not abandoning you.

You will see her tomorrow. Perhaps at that time, the two of you could have a calm discussion about what behaviors, specifically, are upsetting to her -- and what she would like to see you do differently. And you can talk through the situation.

What do you think?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:29 pm 
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What were you apologizing for? Were you truly apologizing for your own stuff? Or were you apologizing for her feelings? I know for myself, I tend to not like it when someone, in an attempt at apology, says something like "I'm sorry you felt..." or even "I'm sorry I made you feel...". Because my feelings are my own. It's a violations of boundaries for someone to take responsibility for my feelings. I wonder if that's how your sponsor was feeling when she said she has a right to her feelings. Maybe she was feeling like you were owning her stuff instead of your own.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:22 pm 
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Sobriety is not a substitute for actual mental health care.

It can be PART of a treatment regimen. It certainly HELPS. But sobriety is not and was never intended to be treatment for anything other than alcoholism.

If you have other issues, then you should have those treated by the appropriate professionals. Expecting ordinary, every-day people to be able to aid you with your mental issues is asking too much of them. Can they help? sometimes. But complex psychology isn't your average sponsor's repertoire.

I was about 15 months sober when I had my first non-alcoholic meltdown. It took me by surprise, because I felt so darn GOOD by the end of that first year! I thought that all my problems were solved - but they weren't. Taking the drink away DID remove the worst of the acting out, but it didn't stop all the crazy thoughts, didn't keep me stable, didn't get rid of the awful jealousy and rages. It just brought me from full boil to simmer, until I had a snap.

And it was all still there. Same old me I remembered. Same old me I drank to escape. Same old me, same old depression, same old paranoia, same old anxiety.

Getting sober leveled the playing field so that I could get a good, clear view of the issues I still had. And after bitching and pouting and crying (but not drinking) I took another deep breath and got myself into therapy, got back on my medication. I definitely make a lot more headway in therapy will a good chunk of sobriety to go along with it!

If you have more issues than just drinking, go get some help for it. I know that the old-timers call it "outside help" 'cause it's "outside" plain ol' drinking. those guys are my rock when it comes to staying sober each day, but they don't know the first thing about treating depression...

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 Post subject: off the topic
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:03 pm 
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hi - this is off the topic but its a question this thread brought to mind for me...do we have a place/board here to discuss addicitons or "false-addictions"?

where would be the best place for that?

emerging - i like the way you worded and worked through that...

ellen - i gotta take your questions to heart, i can relate to lbcgal's apology scenario kinda sorta and I need to quit apologizing if it may have other purpose too


lbc - i hope you didnt drink and I hope that you are doing beter

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:18 pm 
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Thank you. You know, it is 8 hours later and I'm still pretty upset about it. I ended up going to work at my other job, but the whole time it was hard. I was proud of myself for going, though. Normally I would have just called in sick.

I called my therapist because I seriously didn't know who else to call. I was at the level of upset where I wanted to do something to numb out. I called a few of my AA friends but none of them have called me back, yet.

But you know what? You're right. It's not their arena. Because I have done everything they have told me to. Usually everyone in AA just tells me that I'm self centered to the extreme and that I need God. That God is the only power that will get me out of this. So what do I do? I reach out to new people. I volunteer at a homeless shelter. I pray at the beach.

My dad tries to kill himself last week. I have been going through a hard time trying to deal with his alcoholism. It's been totally sucking. Especially because I don't feel like I'm getting that much support from the ladies at my meetings. But instead of getting mad at them I reach out to more newcomers. I volunteer some more.

I started seeing the therapist who lead this DBT group I was in. I've only seen her once and we only talked about DBT stuff then. I told her that if she was to be my therapist that I want to talk about my problems in ways that I can apply the DBT skills to. So when I called her sobbing today, it was kinda a surprise to her. I really like her, though, because she wasn't like "oh, poor baby." She said "well, it doesn't seem like she was very helpful there, and maybe she was trying to process her feelings at the same time that you were trying to process yours. It's not always easy for us to accept everything about ourselves."

I liked it because she didn't say that either of us was right or wrong. I told her that I was apologizing mostly because the minute someone starts to show irritation with me, then the fear of abandonment kicks in and I can't concentrate on anything else because I'm so consumed with them leaving me. Anyway..I'm going to go into the clinic Monday to get a doctor's appointment. I am back in therapy. I'm starting a DBT group again next week. I'm doing all the right things. I'm just so scared of seeing my sponsor tomorrow. I asked my therapist what to do. I told her that I felt too ashamed to go to the retreat. My therapist said to go, and to calmly tell my sponsor that I'm feeling some shame and I'm trying to work through it. My therapist kept saying that at times when we feel like we're going to be abadoned is when we start to get clingy, but she doesn't really know me that well, yet. When I feel clingy,I do the opposite. I told her that I withdraw. I told her that I was really tempted to call my sponsor back later all happy, thanking her for what she told me, telling her that I'm going to see the doctor and that I appreciate what she told me. My therapist said not to lie. So I'll just say that. That I'm feeling some shame and that I'm working through it.

She also encouraged me to journal through a lot of this, so that I could talk back to the abandonment. The part of me that's terrified that she's leaving.

And I think that that's just that. My sponsor is there to help me with my drinking problem. That's it.

And I think someone was right on here. I think that maybe I was trying to own her feelings as well. I guess when I was apologizing I just wanted to make them better. Like I didn't want her to be pulled into my insanity. I truly don't want to bring anyone down with my own stuff. I didn't want her to feel bad. But my apologizing was making her angrier.

So what do you do when that happens? When someone calls you on your stuff, what do you say? I am so sensitive and I know my sponsor knows it. I can tell that it's starting to bug her. So what do I do when she tells me something about myself that I don't like? Maybe just "thank you. I'll work on it?" Hmm...I'm not sure.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:52 am 
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lbcgal wrote:
Usually everyone in AA just tells me that I'm self centered to the extreme and that I need God. That God is the only power that will get me out of this.

The power of God working through the tools of psychology and medication...

My first time through AA - I ended up leaving because "the program" just wasn't enough. I ended up going to my first pdoc, who did lots of testing and prescribed my first anti-depressants. After a few weeks, the pills kicked in and I felt better than I ever had before. I was so grateful for my sobriety, so grateful that I was finally able to get the treatment I needed! I went in to my usual meeting and shared the gratitude I was feeling and I got smacked with a brick wall.

"You just need to work the program"
"If you were really sober, you wouldn't take any drugs!"
"You aren't turning yourself over to your higher power."
"If you just want to take "happy pills" why are you even here?"

SO I left and didn't go back for almost 10 years (I drank about five of those away). When I came back this time, I actually called Central Office in New York to get the official AA position on psychiatric treatment. because I was still pissed off.

Times have changed, but not all people do...When I had my meltdown and got back into therapy I kept it low profile. I'm don't lie about, don't deny it, but I keep it out of the meetings unless it's relevant. Most people in the meetings understand about "outside help" and my sponsor is really glad I'm doing it.

I don't know how you work your program and it's not my place to know. I can only speak from my experience...I maintain a strong core of AA beliefs, but I have my own relationship with my Higher Power. I am convinced that he works through science and medicine just as much as he works in and through people. If I'm going to live sober, I need to treat my mental issues as well. We can be "restored to sanity" but in my case, prayer and service work alone were not enough.

I'm glad you were able to talk to your therapist. Sometimes I feel like some parts of the program may be helpful for most people, but almost backwards for those of us with "grave emotional and mental disorders". Honesty (for me) is the acceptance that AA is only part of my recovery.

What can you say when people call you on your stuff? I've learned not to fight it too much, not to offer excuses or try to defend myself. Depending who I'm talking to, my response usually is something like "I hadn't considered that" or "Thank you for sharing your opinion"...I can't take it personally. There's probably something in it that I may want to look at, but whatever is going on, it's their opinion of me, not a fact. It can be helpful to get feedback from other people, but none of my flaws is going to go away overnight...

Go to the retreat, let go of this past week and immerse your mind in the fellowship for a day or two. Stay in the moment...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:02 am 
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Minx, there are still meeting out there like that, where they believe that taking ANY pills = not sober. It's important to screen meetings and find healthy, supportive ones.

ibcgal wrote:
My dad tries to kill himself last week. I have been going through a hard time trying to deal with his alcoholism. It's been totally sucking. Especially because I don't feel like I'm getting that much support from the ladies at my meetings.


Ibcgal, are you going to an Al-anon meeting for this? You might find that group to be more supportive for that kind of serious issue. It is possible and okay to go to different fellowships to have different needs met.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:31 am 
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That's it, Minx. That wall. I have friends that won't even take Tylenol PM because they feel that it's violating their sobriety. When I was talking to one person about my depression, they kept saying that they were that they, too, were suicidal once. And that only their Higher Power and service work would help them. So I get all happy thinking that if I just help people more and pray more than I would be better. But it doesn't work because I do everything they say and I still feel bad. Actually, I feel worse.

I think I was just trying so hard to be "normal" like my sponsor and other ladies in my group. Everytime I called her about something, she would always say "just wait till you get to your 4th step, this will relieve a lot of this." or "you're right where you need to be, this is totally step 7 right now." Every thing else she blames on my alcoholism.

So I'm stuck with this head trying to do all the right stuff, supressing stuff trying to be "normal" and having panic attakcs on the freeway as a result.

I remember the therapist I had early in sobriety. (I'm sober 2 1/2 years). She told me that I didn't have to explain myself to anybody. If I needed to leave early, sit by the door, come late, whatever..the most important thing is that I get there.

I spend so much time being what other people want me to be that I ignore what I need. And I push all of that stuff down and I'm having panic attakcs and don't know why.

My sponsor was right in all the stuff she was saying. I never realized that apologizing was being passive aggressive. You can bet that I won't ever do that again.

I've blurred the lines between therapist and sponsor. She's there for the drinking. I have to keep telling myself that. I'm expecting AA to treat all of my issues, and it just can't. And that's okay. Even if people in AA think that I'm self absorbed or trying to get "high" by taking antidepressants, that's just their oppinion.

And I have to keep it at that. I get so thrown off by other's oppinion. They say something and instantly I try to change to be what they want. Even if it violates something that I don't believe.

And yeah, I do need Alanon. I've been going to those meetings as well. :-)

Thank you, for all your responses.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:22 pm 
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If you do take antidepressants, why would you have to tell anyone? It's not their business. Can't you keep that to yourself?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:58 pm 
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How are you feeling now, hon?

If it's any consolation, it does sound as though you're doing all the right things. And it sounds as though you've learned a lot from this experience too, which is awesome, even if it hurts like hell right now!

I'm not in AA or any 12-step programme, but I do believe in God. And I very much agree with what Minx said about God working through therapy and meds as well as in other ways. Prayer and doing things for others are great, and you'll find those among the DBT skills, but sometimes you just need to take a different approach. The great thing about DBT is there are so many different things you can try if the first thing doesn't help!

Anyway, I hope you feel a bit better soon. Hang on in there. Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:39 pm 
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I never realized that apologizing was being passive aggressive. You can bet that I won't ever do that again.


I know all too well the panic that comes when I realize that I did or said something that inadvertently makes another frustrated or upset. And the fear of abandonment and shame that sends out an automatic "I'm sorry" in an attempt to make things okay. You don't have to apologize every time you do something that makes another feel uncomfortable. Even if what you wanted or asked for from your sponsor was inappropriate in some way, you don't have to apologize for being human.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:21 am 
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That's all so true. And no, I don't have to tell anyone. I guess I hear this thing that they read at the begining of every meeting. I don't know exactly how it sounds, but it goes to the effect of "even people with grave emotional and mental disorders do recover if they have the capacity to be honest." I guess that, to me, means that I have to come clean about everything. I'll literally be sitting in a meeting, thinking of stuff I have done recently that I haven't been completely honest about. Especially the cutting. Now I'm in therapy again and am in a DBT class to deal with that.

The more "tough love" people in AA try to show me, the more self destructive I get. They call me selfish, that doesn't go with my moral code, so I hurt myself to punish myself for it. Anyway..on this retreat I went to this weekend, my sponsor and I went to little store on one of our breaks and I bought a henna tattoo kit. I read somewhere that that's something you can do instead of cutting. I'm really excited about it. But, I guess for all the honesty stuff, yeah, it scares me. I've had several people tell me that I need to tell my sponsor about it, but I honestly don't think so. I have always had reservations about it. One time I had a panic attack during a meeting and she said "I don't think you're okay. We need to call 9-11." Another lady told me that she got them every once in a while as well and so she gave me a paper bag as I walked to another room and breathed into it. I was fine within a few minutes. I just don't think my sponsor knows how to help me. Her answer to every depressive episode I get, every anxiety or concern, every panic attack, is "that's just your alcoholism" or "you're feeling some self-pity right now." All that does is serve to increase my shame. And shame, I'm really learning, especially recently, doesn't serve any purpose. I can't help others if I'm feeling shame. There is really no point to it, unless I use it to change. But I don't. I wallow in it.

I'm thinking that I just have to keep the two things completely different. My sobriety in one thing. My mental illness in another. It's just that people share so honestly during meetings sometimes. After the retreat I felt that I was being too hush hush about stuff with me. I would be hanging out with some of the women (it was a women's retreat) and they would all be talking really personally about aspects of their lives, and I guess part of me wanted to be like that. Suicidal thoughts, depression, anxiety, etc. is actually very normal in the rooms of AA. Even my sponsor was on psych meds when she first got sober. She actually woke up from a black out in a psych ward. When I heard that it made me really happy because I thought she could understand me more. Thing is, she can't. I spent so much time with her this weekend, and while it was okay, it was so hard for me to get out of my head all the stuff that went down on Thursday. I really wanted to talk to her about it, but she seemed perfectly fine about it. She never mentioned it and seemed genuinely happy to see me. It nagged on me quite a bit, but I didn't want to ruin the relationship or make her more angry, so I just let it be. I figured I would just wait till we got together again, this time for my 10th step because I am almost done with 9. Then I was thinking that I could just thank her for what she said and work on the behaviors that she thinks need changing.

All in all. I'm really glad that she made me aware about being passive aggressive. I didn't know that was what I was doing when I was apologizing. I didn't realize that I was trying to control people. Mostly I see myself as this passive person that will do anything to make you like me. I will go along with whatever you say. But, in reality, my apologizing is my attempt to stop making you mad at me. It's me trying to control you, to hold onto you so that you don't leave me.

So, that's it. I think a lot of my problems in AA come from me being to honest, at least, with the wrong people. When it comes to mental illness, people in the program have some interesting theories on it. And in trying to work an honest program, I reveal too much, and don't take care of myself as a result.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:23 am 
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Regarding honesty and openness. The way I see it, being honest means not lying, it means, when I say something, it's the truth as I see it. But it doesn't mean sharing everything. What I choose to share is openness, not honesty.

There's a guy I know who is a friend, and someone I find attractive. I would never lie to him. I'd never be anything but honest. But I don't volunteer that I find him attractive, because it's not appropriate to the relationship. I wouldn't lie about it or go out of my way to hide it. No lack of honesty. But not something I choose to openly express.

I think you got the right idea in your last paragraph, I just wonder if maybe it would be better to talk about being too open with the wrong people, rather than too honest.


Regarding other seeing you as selfish. Someone seeing you as selfish doesn't mean you are selfish. Two different things. Someone else's perception isn't your reality. Trying to never be seen as selfish is owning other people's stuff.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:22 pm 
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You know what, Ellen? I never thought about that before, but you are so right. That's exactly what I'm doing. Thanks for sharing.


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