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I know I'm not supposed to ask for replies but I was asked to write down my problem. I thought I'd get some advice here. Maybe I misunderstood?

Okay, I'll take the bait.

BG, since you asked, I will give you some advice. Keep in mind that it is coming from someone (me) who has been in similar circumstances. You say you don't like the student intern. It's okay that you don't like her. You don't have to like her, you don't have to like anyone you don't like. But ignoring her and acting upset and angry because she is there is pretty childish (not putting you down, I've been childish too). Can you use some of your DBT skills instead?

you said


He may not have to keep her there. Why do you think that is the reason he said if it came to her leaving or you it would be you? Just because you are uncomfortable doesn't mean he should throw her out. Maybe it is a good opportunity for you to sit with uncomfortable feelings and practice your skills. Actually I'm surprised that your T encouraged you to call up others members to talk about her behind her back.

I don't know why you are judging her as not very bright. How do you know that? Perhaps if you gave her a chance you would come to really like her. It's like you made up your mind before even knowing a thing about her that you do not like her and do not want her there.

When I had DBT years ago, we often had a student or co-leader in training. I always felt uncomfortable at first. I was always sad to see them go too. When I was uncomfortable with someone in the group, I would talk to my T about it, but in a way where I owned my own feelings and didn't ostracize another in the process. Why not discuss the guinea pig feelings that you have instead? I have felt like a guinea pig too when a student was participating in group. You feeling like a guinea pig is very understandable. However, your feelings have nothing to do with this other person.

This sounds like a great opportunity for you to demonstrate the skills you have learned and show your T that you are willing to work through this in a healthy manner.

Thank you April! I really did want some feedback!

I'll try to answer the questions you posted. First, I never told my T I wanted him to get rid of her. I don't know why he said that. I think he thought that's what I wanted. I did call him today and tell him I never meant that I wanted her out of the group.

My T did not tell me to call people up and talk about her behind her back. What he wanted was for me to talk to some other members and see how they felt about having a student in the group and how they handled having her there. It wasn't a gossip session or anything like that. He just wanted me to see how they dealt with having her there. I spoke to two women and they did help me.

When I spoke to him today I told him that I wanted to discuss my feelings about how I felt like a guinea pig. I told him that when I discuss this with him, that I will not bring her up in the discussion. This will be about my feelings, not her or anything about her. He told me that he tried to get me to talk about it yesterday but I was having trouble expressing my feelings.

I know she will be there for 5 more months. I thought about it a lot today and I think my main issue is feeling like I'm being watched, almost like I'm being dissected. I dont' like that. How have you gotten over those feelings April? Which skills did you use? I hate feeling like i'm under a microscope. That's how this makes me feel. I know it's not her fault. It just took me a long time to figure it out.

I think he does have to keep her in the group. He is her supervisor and he intends to keep her there. So that means that I have to figure out how to deal with it. I have to figure out how to be comfortable sharing personal things with the group, knowing that she is listening. I have been struggling with this for a few days and still don't have much of an answer.

I really appreciate your candor. If you have any suggestions I'd gladly welcome them!!!!! Thank you!!!!

It sounds like there is some reason why you don't like her, possibly related to something from your past. I seriously doubt that someone who you find to be not-very-bright could cause such overwhelming feelings. Perhaps the not-very-bright judgement is a cover-up for the real reason why you are having trouble with her.

I think there are 2 separate issues. I would like to focus more on the feelings I have regarding feeling like a guinea pig and not wanting to share in front of her. To me, that's more important right now than whether I like her or not.

I tried to open the link you gave me, but when I got to the page, it was blank.

Thanks for your help - I really appreciate it!!!!

Oh no, that wasn't a link meant for you, it's in my sig. An attempt to put a banner there... haven't quite figured it out yet lol.

BG, could it be that you are upset because your T wasn't there or just the fact that it was a chnage in routine? I hate changes and i remember even when i was younger, acting out because of it. It could be about her, but more than likely it has nothing to do with her but how you react to change.

Yea, good point. I've been there myself, when there was a change where I didn't have my security blanket, I felt scared to death. The way I overcame was I just told myself I was going to go in there and do it, regardless of how I felt. And after a few times doing it, I calmed down and became more comfortable. So regardless of whether you feel in the spotlight, do it anyway. That takes courage, but when you conquer, you will love yourself for it. And you may even begin to like her...

Thank you! Let's see - I knew he wasn't going to be there last week. He told me ahead of time and he even asked me to e-mail the people in the group to let them know. So I knew she would be leading the group last week.

I really think the problem is that I don't like feeling that I'm being "watched" and dissected by a student. I have never felt comfortable with students in a room when I'm with a doctor. I feel like I'm under a microscope. So to go in there and share my feelings with someone like that and know that she is "studying" me - well, it gives me the creeps.

And to be honest, she doesn't have much of a personality. If she were a bit more outgoing it might be better. But everytime my T asks her a question, it's like she's in la-la-land and she never can answer his questions properly. I know she's there to learn, but I just have this block about being the person being learned ON.

I also feel that we all come across as these poor pathetic BPD people who can't control our emotions and are big fuck-ups.

It's okay with my T because he's led groups before and he respects us all. But we don't know what's going on in her head and I just hate being someone's guinea pig. I don't know how to get over that. That's the crux of the issue. I don't know what to do. I went last week and thought "I can do this - I can speak in front of her." But when I got there, I just couldn't do it. I could not share anything with her there.

but see that is something else new to learn. why you cant share when H is there and what it means to you and how to learn to do it.

this is what its about. learning. changing.

can you imagine how this H feels about leading a group of people with mental issues? lol. i would be terrified. she may not be outgoing at all, and may be about as scared of you as you are of her. she must feel watched and dissected too.............

You're right Jody. But still, I'm the one who is expected to share my innermost thoughts - not her. And she chooses to be there - I didn't choose to have a student there.

I have to figure out how to do this. But i'm having trouble. I wish I knew what the answer was!!!!

Do you think I have to just Radically Accept that she's there and just deal with it? I wish I knew HOW to deal with it - the reality of dealing with it. What to actually DO. Do I pretend she's not there? That's why I need help here. I don't want to be a mean person. That's what I feel I'm turning into. It's not really about her, it's about me. I have such a hard time explaining my feelings. My T said he tried to get me to talk about them on Tuesday but I couldn't. I just couldn't explain it to him. I am going to have to try at my next session with him.

I feel so bad - like I really fucked up. That's making things worse. I'm stuck in the house, in this lousy weather, can't go anywhere because of my foot, and have been thinking about this non-stop. If anyone can give me some practical advice I'd really love it! I was reading another post about something, and realized I might need to use Radical Acceptance here. But to actually go to Group today and open my mouth and share, well, I want to do it but i'm afraid. Hellllllp!!!!!

You've handled situations with this level of anxiety just fine dozens of times in the past two years that you've been worrying about what to do in upcoming frightening situations. Each time you get into the situation, you do just fine. You seem to experience far more anxiety anticipating the situation than you do being in it.

You know what to do. You've been through the 30 lessons in Distress Tolerance, Emotion Regulation and Interpersonal Effectiveness in the dbtclass group at least twice. Check your post #1821 at Yahoo's dbtclass group. It's an experience you felt a lot of anxiety about then took an action that worked just fine, and relates closely to your situation today. There are others. Pick one or two and try them.

Thanks IBF!!! It's sort of like jumping into the swimming pool with your eyes closed - just doing it, right? Sort of just putting my mind to it.

How do I find that post? Do I go to the Yahoo site? I've never looked up posts before.

I am still a little overwhelmed with all the DBT stuff. I had been so fuzzy-headed the past 2 weeks and couldn't think straight. But I am clearer this week. I will look up the lessons in my workbook.

Thanks. This gives me something concrete to do! I'll let you know what I learn.

How about opposite action? Linehan would say that there is no actual lion in the room, no actual threat to your life. Allowing the fear to dictate your behavior is emotional reasoning. DBT therapists like it when the group is uncomfortable enough to provide skill practice in a situation where your t gets to watch you trying your skills. A totally comfortable group with the type of student t you would be more comfortable with would give you no practice. You might get to the point where you are grateful that you dislike this student so much, because she's giving you the gift of practice.

Ann, you are right on! I never thought of it that way. So it's basically going in and facing the fear. I'll just have to see what happens too. Sometimes my T has a topic we discuss, other times we're open for discussion. But I will try opposite action. I found out that my one friend who I'm very close to in the group won't be there today. I was counting on her for support, but I'll just have to count on myself for support (and also knowing you all support me)!

I'm sitting here "projecting" - thinking and worrying about things my T might spring on us in group today, even though I know it's not good to do that. I was thinking that he might bring this topic up with her in the room and ask us to talk about how we feel about having her there. Since I promised him that I would share, then I would be forced to talk about it in front of her. But I am projecting, so it's not even worth discussing, right?

I'm going to pull out my DBT workbook before I leave for group. THANK YOU!!!!

Bear with me - I've only partly skimmed April's first "i'll take the bait" reply but based on that, I think I have the gist of what's going on.

That said, I want to share a story of a similar nature.

I was ... oh, maybe 12 or 13. It was either Freshman or Sophomore US History and the new teacher was Ms. Dennehy. She used to be a student at our high school. This was her first teaching job and she was very unsure of herself. I could smell the weakness coming off her. I wanted nothing to do with her. I ignored her during class. I disregarded her teachings because I felt her style was such crap that it wasn't worth paying attention to.

That first quarter, I got a D in the class. I was mortified! I had never before gotten anything lower than a C+ in a class. Ever.

Why, that little BITCH! How dare she fuck with my high school education!

Right then and there, I set out to learn in SPITE of her fumblings and ineptitude. I continued to disregard her teachings and whatever else she put forth but I did my own work, my own thing, I taught myself.

The next three quarters? Straight A's.

I actually got called to the principal's office to explain the transformation from a D to an A.

My point is: yeah, she may annoy you but she ain't going anywhere. You can either use her as an excuse to remain stagnant (or worse, deteriorate) OR you proceed in spite of her presence. Either way, the work still falls to you. It's all about what you choose to do when faced with something you don't like.

Are you really gonna let someone else ruin your experience and progress? So what - you don't have to like or even respect her. You were doing fine before she got there and you can KEEP doing find. She is of no consequence to you unless you choose to hand over your personal power to her.

Yes, Ash, you are right. I realized that. I decided I wasn't going to let her run me out (not that she wants to). My T told me I have to work in group and if he sees I'm not, I'm out the door. So I will do that.

I think right now I'd like to explore what this barrier is that I have regarding how I feel about feeling like a guinea pig in front of a student. I know it dates to when I was younger, but my reaction has been so severe that I'd like to discuss it. If anyone here has any experiences with that, I'd love to hear from them.

Thank you!

I've not been in the hands of a student but I've been in situations where I've felt like I've been in "not so capable" hands.

Intuition suggests the things that might be coming up are:

- "I have real and difficult issues so I need someone who really knows what they're doing, not a trainee."

- "I am feeling lost and I need someone to be a take-charge, authoritative leader in this process not someone who's fumbling through class notes."

- "I trust my doctor but this person is new and hasn't earned my trust yet. As a student, I may even distrust her."

- "Since I trust my doctor, I feel safe to open up to him and even fumble a time or two. I feel like the student may be criticising me or judging me because she doesn't know me or know how far I've come."

- "I don't like change. I want things back the way they were."

- "I come here for professional assistance from people who have been fully trained and have real-life experience, not to have my life wrecked or made worse by someone who hasn't been put through their paces yet."

I don't know if any of those things ring true with or for you.

You seem pretty confident that this dates back to childhood. Was there another situation where you were at the mercy of an incompetent person?

BG, rather than explore and discuss it, (or in addition to that, since it's underway...) how about if you try doing something potentially constructive about changing it?

I personally do not believe that you will encounter that feeling enough times to make it worth figuring out why it happens. Once this five month period has ended, how often will you find yourself in a therapy group with a student intern?

I believe that there are other bigger issues going on here. As usual, per Ruiz in writing about the Agreements and Love, all of them are likely driven by fear of something.

But in my opinion, and it's only my opinion, it matters less what they are than it matters what you do about them.

So instead of discussing the causes of that reaction to feeling like a guinea pig, how about trying this..

List six or more possible consequences to you from behaviors you might choose in response to the emotions connected with feeling like a guinea pig. What are the things you might actually do in the meeting, and what are six consequences of doing those things?

List six or more possible consequences to others (T, Intern, and Group) that could result from the behaviors you listed above.

From each list of consequences... four lists altogether, circle the three that are most powerful in terms of their impact on you, T, Intern, and group.

From each list of consequences... underline the three that you are most likely to choose to do, regardless of the potential impact of the consequences on the lists.

Now, look at those consequences that are both circled and underlined.

List three alternative and more effective reaction behaviors for each.. three that you are willing to use should the need arise.

Keep this sheet in front of you at the meeting. As soon as the meeting concludes, list the behaviors you chose when it was time to respond to your feelings of being a guinea pig.

After the meeting, make a few notes about what the consequences of your behavior choices are likely to be for all the key characters and how you feel about that.

Keep this worksheet in a notebook for the next time you find yourself approaching a situation where you're worried about how you'll react to your anxiety.

Hi. Thanks so much for your help everyone!!!! IBF, I didn't get a chance to use your suggestion because I hadn't been able to get on the board until about an hour ago. I couldn't log on for a few hours. But I will use your suggestion.

Ash, I think for me, the following ring true for me:







I feel all of the above. I don't trust her and I don't think she's competent. One other thing is that I was never given a choice that she be there and listen to my "problems." But on the other hand, I had a thought today. What if I came into the Group at a later date and she was already there? I don't think I would feel as strongly as I do now. I would accept her because she was already there. So I do think part of it is that we were never given a choice. Some of us are very protective about our Group - we act like it's "our" Group, which my T said it's not.

So, I went in today a little hesitant. I came into the waiting room early and another women from the Group was there- so we had a nice discussion. At 3:00 we went into the Conference Room. My T came in and it was just the 3 of us. Then H came in, and then 4 of the other women. So there were six of us, my T and H. My friend M sat across from me and I felt she gave me support.

We had a good conversation and my T led the discussion. H was sitting at the other end of the table and I didn't look at her. But I did my best to feel relaxed and I participated and joked around and it was fine. It wasn't a session where any of "bared our souls" - it was more a discussion about something my T read and what our reactions were to it. I didn't feel threatened or anything like that. I just decided that I wasn't going to allow her to ruin it for me (which she couldnt' do anyway - it would really be ME ruining it for me).

One of the things we discussed was if we ever ask other people for help. All the women said they don't like asking people for help, and I was the only one who said I DO ask people for help. So he wants me, next week, to tell the Group why I don't have a problem with it and how I do it. Another woman has to talk about why she DOESN'T like asking for help. So the Group will open with me talking. Wow!

I feel really good about all of this. I plan on doing whatever I can to get the most out of the Group to help me. I have Radically Accepted that H will be there. I basically ignore her and pretend she's not there. I am not rude or anything. It's just the way things are.

I do plan on exploring this further with my T. I feel it's important enough for me. If I have had such a strong reaction to her, I think I need to find out why.

Also, Ash, to answer one of your questions. I have not had experience with incompetent medical personnel - but I have had times where I was in a doctor's office and medical students came in without my permission. I was very young and I felt I had no control over the situation and didn't like it at all. I was extremely embarrassed. And this situation reminds me of that.

IBF - tomorrow I will implement your advice. It's late now and I can't - but I do plan on writing those things out. I appreciate your help!!!!

And thank you Ash. You all have helped me tremendously!

I'm impressed with the way you're working on your problem, BG. :thumbsup I'm glad you are able to radically accept that H is in the group, and that you can simply ignore her. Like you said, the situation is temporary and before you know it, she won't be there any more.

It took me forever to get there! I spent a week on this. I posted, I made phone calls, I sent e-mails. Anything I could to make some sense of it. I wanted to separate any dislike I have for H from how I feel having an outsider observing us.

I have a lot of things to tell my T on Tuesday. I want to tell him that no, I m not jealous of H. That he hurt my feelings the way he told me he would get rid of ME from the group and never let her leave. I never expected for him to ask her to leave, so this was a moot point. But the way he said it wasn't nice and I was shocked and very upset. I want him to take my feeling seriously, even help me explore him. I don't want him discounting how I feel just because I have BPD.

Then we can get to the crux of the matter - why I don't like feeling like a guinea pig and being WATCHED by her. I feel like she is in there because my T wanted her to see what a bunch of screwed-up BPD women look and sound like. Like she's watching monkeys in the zoo. "Let's watch the poor fucked up BPD group perform for us. See how screwed up they are?" We are an example to her. If that doesn't make me feel like shit, I don't know what does.

It's taken me over a week to get to this point where I can finally acknowledge how I really feel and be able to articulate it. I appreciate everyone who came here and listened to me and wrote back with advice and insights. To me, that's why I'm here. I post because I like a dialogue on how to figure out my problems. And I do try to take everyone's advice as long as I feel it really can help me. I take what you-all say seriously.

So I see my T Tuesday and we'll see what happens. It should be quite interesting!

So you really believe your T has such thoughts? No wonder you're upset. Who would be willing to work with a T who thinks that way? Not me. How about you? And if you can't work with him, wouldn't that be a fine mess for you? Talk about rejection. Holy crap!

And yesterday, you seemed to believe (or I read your meaning incorrectly, which could be true) these thoughts...

were her thoughts, not your T's thoughts.

Oh, BG, what a struggle for you.

Now since it might be that these are not your T's thoughts, but your thoughts which you're projecting onto your T because of some fear or anger about something, what do you think that might be about?

Some of those thoughts were over-reactions. I know full well that my T doesn't think we're a bunch of fuck-ups. He actually tells us quite often how much he respects us. But I think deep down I'm afraid that SHE (the student) thinks we are. She's there to observe the "poor pathetic BPDers." That's how I feel. It may not be true - I have no way of knowing what she thinks. But it's my fear. Look, if we didn't have BPD we wouldn't be there in the first place. Obviously we're not the most well-adjusted people on the block.

This is all my own perception. I am going to talk to my T about it. I sometimes do feel that I'm not taken seriously because I have BPD. Even my H will sometimes say to me "oh, you're acting so BPD-ish." Other women in my group say their H's have said the same thing at various times. So sometimes it's being held against us. And in this situation I'm afraid my T thinks that way too. He probably doesn't, but again, that's my fear. I have to check it out with him when I see him on Tuesday.

I know I project a lot. I am trying to stop that behavior. It's not healthy and certainly not productive.

But I still feel that she is watching and observing us as if we are speciments in a glass dish. And it gives me the creeps. I just have to deal with it. Ignoring her and pretending she's not there is the only way I have right now to deal with it. My friend M told me she does the same thing - she pretends she's not there. It works well for her so I can do it too. I'm not rude and not nasty, so it's not like I'm being mean to her. It's the only way I can cope. All my T wants me t do is participate in Group and learn. If I can do that, then all will be well. I don't have to be her best friend.