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I had a really messy, really unhelpful T relationship that ended a good 4 years ago. It turned into a nightmare because of loose boundaries and it has taken me most of this time to get back to 90% functional.

The whole thing exploded and I finally managed to leave after numerous attempts - I was very attached to her, and she, it seems, to me. It took years to leave, and I was completely wrecked by the process. There was no question that she had f***ed up, and eventually full admission and remorse from her re how damaging the therapy had been.

Just after I finally did manage to leave, she moved all the way across town (and I mean ALL the way) and into my suburb. Suddenly I started seeing her most days at the supermarket. I would ignore her, but it was incredibly hard because I was still so very attached to her.

At that stage I was tossing up laying a complaint and had some dealings with her supervisor over it. I said to him in one conversation that I couldn't believe she had moved so close to where I lived - and that I was finding it really hard having her in my face every day. After that I didn't see her. She must have shopped somewhere else all these years.

Last week - and then again yesterday - I saw her at the mall again. Maybe she thinks enough time has passed, and maybe she's right. I'm trying really hard to be adult and sanguine about this, but I WANT HER GONE! I know a shopping mall may sound like a silly little thing, but I've shopped there 15 years, it's a small suburb, it's my space, and I feel like she's totally violating it. I don't understand, still, why she would move into my part of town after an entire lifetime on the other side of town, and I don't want to have to see her every time I need groceries. Yes, I could find another mall, but as ridiculous as it sounds, it feels like disrupting the whole rhythm and routine of my life. All my friends shop there, it is (or was) safe, familiar and a no-danger zone.

Yesterday I thought damnit, I am not going to just shrink up and stare at the floor again like I did the last time she started shopping there. And maybe it is time to let bygones be bygones. And who am I to tell her where she can and can't shop? So I marched over to her car in the carpark and said a big cheery 'hi', which was weird and awkward for both of us, but I thought maybe it would normalise things..

I can't stop thinking, though, I just want her GONE. I feel stalked. Or invaded. Or violated. Or whatever. And I'm going to be looking over my shoulder for her the whole time. Then I thought maybe I should just march up to her every time I see her - make it so awkward that she will want to avoid me. Which I can't imagine me doing.

I am not sure what to do. I am not nearly as sorted and laissez-fair about this whole thing as I thought I was. I am not ready (or willing) to have her in my face again on a day to day basis. But it's a public space, and who am I to dictate who can and can't be there?

Susanna,

WOW. Having had such an intense therapy relationship and difficult ending, I can see why it would distress you to begin running into your t at the mall. It probably brings back troubling memories and painful feelings that you've worked so hard to come to grips with and put behind you. I think it was courageous of you to approach her and say "Hello," as it enabled you to keep your power, rather than feeling intimidated or shrinking back and hiding.

If I were you, I would feel the same way about running into someone frequently who I'd had such a painful, unsettling experience with. Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do to prevent her from shopping wherever she wants to.

Your only two options as I see it are to (1) prepare yourself to run into her, and then follow through with whatever action will protect you emotionally and mentally or (2) shop somewhere else yourself. Which would be the most advantageous to you? To learn to tolerate the situation, or to remove yourself from it? I'm not sure that trying to make the encounter unpleasant for her is a wise choice, as it may be just as unpleasant and unsettling for you.

Susanna,

Do you think your former T is stalking you? Do you think she has mental problems herself? That is: are you afraid that she purposely is trying to get close to you again, or is it just chance that she started shopping where you do again? Is she still practicing psychotherapy? Could you have a talk with her supervisor again, if he's still her supervisor, or even if he isn't? It sounds like you still don't have closure on the whole experience and need to talk to someone about it. Your former T should be the one to be sure you're okay with her presence, but apparently does not hold by any ethics.

I can't imagine being in this situation with a T, since I'm the one who would be following my T around, not vice versa. It certainly explains your feelings about the dangers of therapy. I can understand your being upset by her presence, and wanting her not to be there. I give you credit for being able to say hi. Again, SHE should be the one to normalize things, not you. Maybe she will decide not to shop there again, after that encounter.

In my case, I stopped going to the class that I know my T attended because it was too uncomfortable for me. But I don't know if I would change where I shopped to avoid her. You're correct that, of course, your former T has a right to shop wherever she chooses.

I'm sorry you're in such a tough dilemma, Susanna. My ideal, probably unrealistic solution would be to meet with your former T and her supervisor, or just with her supervisor, or someone who replaced him, if he's not there, to get closure on the situation. It sounds like it's bothering you too much to be left alone.

Oh, yuck! Susanna what a crap thing to be dealing with. On a logical level everyone knows that what you state is true- she has the right to shop whereever, but this, like so much for us, gets down to how our emotions take such a deep hit.

It's obvious that the painful wounds are being re-opened here. And it is more than likely ex-T thought she had given things enough time or her life has changed and requires her to be here now.

I know you have a trusted friend and a T now that you can talk to. I hope you are bringing this up with them. I also hope you work thru just what has taken ahold so deeply- lack of trusting this person? a sense that they would take an opportunity if you gave it to renew things? was their apology heartfelt?

I am a bit in alignment with Wondering. Hard as it might be, would there be any benefit and comfort to having a supervised face to face with this person? (or perhaps even a phone call of just you and they.. Im concerned a supervised meeting would add too much noise. ) I am thinking that perhaps you need to see/hear where they are today. Listen to their words and be able to feel the truth in what is up for them. While on one hand this may be an extreme measure, your situation was extreme and it is obvious that while you've healed over time, there has not been a good coming to terms with what occured. You still believe that this person is harmful and being near them is unsafe.

I suppose in the short-term day to day - I see a need of radical acceptance; staying grounded/present; and re-iterating all the positives you've come to know and believe about yourself.

This person doesnt have the ability to influence you any more. It sounds as if you dont feel this.

I had forgotten that you have another T now. Or is it a friend/sometimes T? Whatever, I agree with smilin that it would be a good idea to discuss this situation with her/him. Don't you think so?

Thanks for understanding - I really appreciate it. It's not the sort of thing people in my 'real world' would even begin to relate to (tho my H is very good and gets it entirely - I just don't want to overload him with it, he has a lot of stress right now).

I do have a sometimes-T. She's not a friend, but her office building is next door to mine and we do bump into each other a lot, exchange the odd book, that sort of thing. But NOTHING like it was with ex T. Night and day. I know what she'd say already: ignore ex T, don't even look her in the eye, get on with your life. She does understand fully that ex T completely traumatized me, and she has seen how far I have come in getting over it (as much as I have).

Sometimes T had offered to have a meeting with ex T and me, to fully explain to ex T the mess she left and how strongly I feel about not having her in my life - anywhere. But I feel like I tried so, so hard at the time to get 'closure', and it made things so much worse (the last meeting ex T and I had she told me she was suicidal over the whole thing and how hard it was on HER. I ended up feeling sorry for HER. It was crap. Didn't stop her taking a very prominent position on a national disciplinary board. I guess she'd know what a blurry-boundary looked like, if nothing else). I also feel like ex T would say anything to shut the issue down.

Ex T would be a good person to talk to - she used to be ex T's boss and knows her well. Says she's ragingly narcissistic. On that basis my suspicion is that ex T is just oblivious to how I might feel, and doing whatever is convenient for her.Which makes me as angry as if she WERE stalking me, because it's like she is totally invalidating what happened and the train wreck she left me in and the part she played in it (it's not like she never admitted she was in the wrong).

Ex T asked yesterday 'how are you?' and I responded that I was fine. But it had been a long, long haul. And she said 'I know'. And she damned well DOES know that

Rationally I don't think she is stalking me - it just feels that way. But part of me can't be sure, given her position...she's got a lot to lose...her behaviour in putting herself in my face EVER is.. bizarre. But that just makes me feel completely crazy. I think that's the trouble with this whole thing. Her presence just makes me feel completely un-hinged.

You know, what I would really love is to be able to just accept that she is there, accept that what happened happened, and go about my day. I'd love to be able to forgive her (I know that sounds trite and stupid, but I hate having anger in my heart for so long) and understand that what happened, happened, and feel some sense of ACCEPTANCE about the whole thing.

But I'm not there yet. I am far, far away from being there. Instead I am a messy bundle of complicated, unpleasant and uncomfortable(and downright unattractive) feelings.

Well, all I can offer is this:

My situation with my ex-T wasn't nearly as involved or close as yours was with yours and it has taken me nearly 7 years to accept it.- which I barely do. I get angered that he is still a T (now a 'life coach'- as if that is any better- perhaps, perhaps he cannot do more harm to those already quite harmed - that's my wish/hope). Any time I hear of anyone who is dealing with a T where the boundaries are blurring, I come right back to what I experienced and the anger is there and I feel like writing him and telling him that just because I've been quiet doesn't mean I am ok or that this wasn't a harmful thing that occurred. And, on occassion I just want to pick up the phone and say how much that interaction/those exchanges with him were harmful and wth was he doing/thinking? And a lot of that isn't so much that the harm is so strong, as much as, lord I'd love for him to know that what occured was indeed wrong and harmful and it has a lasting impact. DO NOT DO IT AGAIN !

So, perhaps this is the next phase for you, in accepting your ok-ness and accepting her messed-up-ness. It's not going to be an easy road, so what can you do to make your subsequent sightings with her less stressful and more positive for yourself? Perhaps just reminding yourself how messedup she is vs how she messed you up. Perhaps lookinig at what power she has over you- none- and the past is past. You have control - you can pick and chose if or when to go up to her. (Not sure doing so is in your overall best interest, but I wonder if you and current T could discuss this- what your control and power is and why you are sent back there so readily).

I encourage you to not avoid the mall. Not to change your routines - to face this because in truth- you are fine and she has no affect on you today this minute.

I agree with what smilin said, 100%.

I have a naive question. Couldn't you report these unethical Ts? Why should they get away with their behavior? Do the doctors and Ts always win? If the surgeon took out your liver instead of your appendix (bad example, I know) wouldn't you (anyone) take action? Why is it different if they mess with our brains and hearts?

Smilin', thanks. It helps to know that I'm not alone in not being 'over it'.

Her turning up there again sort of makes me feel like I SHOULD be over it. That she has somehow decided that enough time has passed that it's OK to put herself in my face again.

I think so much of the problem with this is that it's such a tangled web of emotions. I definitely DON'T want to see her. I can say that for absolute sure now (for some years I missed her so much, despite being terrified of her, that I wanted to see her as much as I didn't want to see her. Now THAT made me feel crazy!).

And thinking about it some more this morning I think the thing that is spooking me most is

I really do, deep down, feel like she is there because she wants to see me

I am scared she hasn't let go.

And it makes me feel TRULY crazy to think that. Like I am imagining things or I'm paranoid or reading too much into it or something. But honestly, that is my gut feeling. I am scared she will never be out of my life.

I think, Smilin', regardless, you're right. I need to just go about my business and take as little on board as I can. It IS a reminder of how far I have come, how messed up she is etc. But it's also taken me so, so long to be OK with being out there in the world without looking over my shoulder in case she's there, the whole time. I don't want to go back there.

I probably should talk to somebody. I am never 100% re sometimes T, since she knows ex T so well and I know she actively HATES her. ALways feels like she's a bit agenda-d.

Wondering, thanks for hanging in there with me. I very seriously considered a complaint at the time. And I probably should have, but I was such a mess. I just wanted her and the whole thing out of my life.
She's also very high up in the national body for her profession - and I knew that me even laying a complaint would completely trash her career. Plus what if I was wrong? What if I destroyed her career for nothing? What if it was all my fault?

The difference, too, is that the heart or brain surgeon or whoever doesn't know all your weaknesses and vulnerabilities. Plus you're not already in that position of being the 'f**ed up one' while they are the mentally sound one. It's an awfully hard thing.

It's not different at all - just harder to quantify and prove the damage. No physical scars.

OK. So. Constructive action from here:


- nothing. I don't need to DO anything. Just acknowledge this is going on, make some space for it, don't get overwhelmed by it, but don't push it away, either.

- make an appt to talk to somebody. Somebody independent of all this who has an objective view. There's a guy -T who practices ACT who I saw a couple of times last year. He could be a good place to start

- make sure I am breathing, esp when shopping! I hyperventilate when I'm scared and the whole thing escalates. I really want to make sure I don't get mall-phobic again.

- accept I might need to take meds if the whole PTSD thing flares again. Life can't be upended by this right now (there's never a good time!). So much other stuff going on.

- try not to freak out about feeling stalked. It doesn't make me a paranoid delusional nutter to feel that way, there are good reasons why her being in my space would make me feel hunted down, but there are also good reasons why she might NOT be hunting me down. I just wish I could figure out which bit of my brain was giving me good information, and which bit was kicked back into some sort of primal fear-based space.

But God, honestly, I just want to cry. I am finding this really, really hard.

Sometimes-T would say I am not crazy and I am not going crazy, and that I am perfectly sane and to hang on to that. But this makes me feel insane. I suppose because it DOES feel all upside-down.

Susana,
I don't understand how you see her most days grocery shopping. It's odd that you both shop at the same time of day "most days." I'm not saying she is stalking you. I'm not sure how small your small town actually is, but if it is small I could see how people could accidentally run into each other.

I have an ex-T who had bad boundaries. I would feel uncomfortable seeing him in stores as I still have some anger regarding how he treated me. I do know how you feel.

The best thing would be to let it all go and forgive. How to do that is another question. Maybe she said she got suicidal over the whole mess in the end, not your actual leaving therapy? Am I understanding that correctly?

Maybe going over things would help the forgiveness process? For example what was the worst think she did during therapy? I realize you felt she allowed you to get too dependent, but was there any one incident that stands out?

And what was a good think you can think of that came from that therapy? Anything? I read that even in the most dysfunctional homes/relationships that there is always some good that happens too. It is good for us to have some balance when we analyze these things although I realize the bad was too big and the good not big enough.

I'm just wondering why you want to sue her---did she do something illegal? I'm sorry if I'm asking you to repeat something. I'm just trying to understand and also I'm not trying to be critical of you.

As far as stalking....I woudl worry more if somebody was showing up at my door uninvited or writing to me without ceasing or calling me or trying to make contact. Has she done any of that since all this ended? If your gut tells you it is conincidence that she is at the market, maybe it is.

Some people get very dependent on their therapists and some therapists don't know how to control that or keep the boundaries tight. And some therapists have unusual ways of doing things that borders on unethical. Some think they are helping when they are doing damage. Some are getting their own needs met, yet are not doing anything really illegal, just unfortunate.

You were ill. She got caught up in taking care of you. You looked like you were shattered into pieces and she wanted to save you and went over the top trying. It seems like she didn't know what to do and it became a mess. I'm not sure she was actually trying to hurt you (although it did). If someone is getting their own needs met and they are a therapist they are wrong for sure, they are not skilled for sure, but maybe realizing she, in her own mind thought she was taking care of you might help you to forgive and let go?

I hope you don't mind this question. I'm just trying to understand. Was ex-T interested in you romantically or sexually? I'm finding it difficult to understand why she would become suicidal, and why you think she may not be "over it." Most gut feelings are accurate to some extent.

Your "sometimes" T knows her well and hates her? That's enough to validate your feelings, I think.

I think it's a good idea to talk with the other T, the man you mentioned.

Hi

Neither romantic nor sexual - as far as I could tell. I get uncomfortable trying to second-guess her motivation for being so intensely interested in me.

Others have speculated it was because I had a bit of a profile and she liked being associated with somebody she saw as being 'special' in some way, or that b/c she was on her own and lonely she got caught up in a pseudo-friendship with me. I don't know. I honestly don't. She didn't have many other clients, and we would spend many hours per week together. For sure, there was an element of rescue involved...but I think it went beyond that.

It's a small town. I see lots of other people I have associations with at the mall - doctors I see, people whose kids go to school with mine, Sometimes-T. Some of them quite regularly. I guess what is unnerving for me is that she very clearly wasn't there, and now she is. Or she wasn't shopping when I do. And now she is. And I wonder why she's suddenly changed that pattern.

Maybe (and probably) nothing to do with me. Whatever.

The suicidal reference was in relation to what she did and how screwed up I was as a result of it. I think she was trying to demonstrate to me how sorry she was. I don't know.

C2L, thanks for the long and thoughtful post. In terms of what she did that I would want to lay a complaint...I don't even know how to articulate it. It was long, it was relentless, it was destructive and I was used for her purposes (to make herself feel competent, fill a gap in her life, give her some sense of professional competence at a time that was being undermined...whatever). Apparently I did have grounds for a complaint, from objective assessment by all sorts of people. I just don't have it in me to go over the whole thing again. And it sort of feels indulgent to keep coming back to it, though God, I can't help myself.

I don't know why I can't just forgive and let go. I know that would be the most peaceful position for me, but it's just not that simple. It's hard to know what WOULD help - I don't think that further contact with her would do anything positive for me.

I know it's childish and simplistic and unrealistic, but I just want her out of my life and out of my space. She's spent an entire lifetime on the other side of town. Why the hell did she have to move just a few blocks from me? I know it probably has nothing to do with me, but it feels so damned threatening.

My PTSD symptoms are heading through the roof

It's okay to cry. Sometimes part of the solution is to take a little time and let oneself cry.

susanna, i can sure see how this would bring up the ptsd./ damn, im sorry.

you said this which got my attention"""The suicidal reference was in relation to what she did and how screwed up I was as a result of it. I think she was trying to demonstrate to me how sorry she was. I don't know. """

this person sounds majorly fucked up to me. any T or anyone who would threaten suicide (been there with others) to convey how sorry they are is seriously fucked up. this is the danger in counseling. will we get someone who fucks us up worse or help us?

i mean listen to how this sounds. "im so sorry i will kill myself" oh come on! i heard this before in life and its selfish crap. a power trip from them. nothing more. if she was really educated, and really sorry, would she put more guilt trips on you? or would she fix herself and know how she affected you? i think the second choice. my h did this to me, and it has taken me a long time to overcome that it was fault and what bullshit his actions were.

scary she is out in the community counseling. yikes. and you would only be protecting you and others, she is quite capable of owning her own responsibility for her actions.

i am really sorry but i also would be very suspicious of her coming close to you in any way and consider reporting her if it keeps happening. she sounds very unbalanced to me to have gotten into this mess to begin with.

just my 2 cents...jody

Susanna, I can really relate to your situation with your ex T. I had a very similar experience with a T who really messed things up. I found myself being her therapist and taking care of her emotionally, with her getting her needs met by me. I covered for her lack of boundaries too, all the time. At one point, her supervisor became concerned about how much time she was spending with me and so she told me she would meet with me secretly. I was very attached and enjoyed all the special attention. In the end, she was caught and covered her own ass. I was devastated. I would be incredibly angry and uncomfortable if I ever saw her again. I still feel hurt by her betrayal. Seeing her again would just bring it all back, and I have tried to put it all past me.

If I were in your shoes, I would have a whole lot of feelings about seeing my Ex T in my "territory". Of course I don't own the territory, but that is how it would feel. But, I have to agree with the others that it wouldn't be good for you to avoid going to the mall or the grocery store just in case she is there. Maybe come up with some coping strategies to deal with the situation if she does happen to be where you are. Also, it's okay to have feelings about this still. It sounds like maybe you are thinking that enough time has passed that it shouldn't bother you to see her again? Even if it was 20 years later, it would be fresh all over again (at least for me). I would probably cry on the spot.

thank you all, so much, for the understanding.

It makes me feel so much less crazy to have other people understand.

Ellen, thanks. I am not good at feeling vulnerable - and I think that is partly why I am so freaked out about this. When she stayed away I guess I felt like I was in control (and I was: I basically traded off the complaint on her staying the F** away from me. And I thought we had a deal). Now it's like the gloves are off again.

Jody, I know you know how it is, with the PTSD. I've been doing so well in the past 6 months or so, it's horrible to feel so hair-trigger reactive again. I went and got a massage tonight after I went to the gym. Both things really helped me feel stronger and less terrified. I so don't want to go back to living in that awful freezing up/freaking out state again. I wish sometimes T was here. She DOES manage to talk me down. I think she's back later in the week, so I should maybe see her, just for some help in staying grounded.

Yes, ex T is troubled. No doubt about it. I forget, sometimes, that it's not all about me being a screw up. She's got screw ups of her own. Which is maybe why I am so wary of her.

I have this whole Buddhist thing happening, so am trying really hard to think kind and compassionate thoughts towards her, but have realized I am going to have to stop referring to her as 'that crazy bitch' in my head first I think I have a long, long way to go before I can even meditate with a straight face.

April, your story sounds so much like mine. It was the shutting down and shutting me out in the end that was so hard. Even though I was petrified of her at the time. And partly why I sort of worry that she's not done with me. The shut down happened b/c her supervisor made her, basically. She and I tried a few times 'back channel', in the end both our lawyers and her supervisor (and sometimes T) stopped it. I remember distinctly saying to her 'we both have to start listening to those people, they're right. This is not good, it's not healthy, it's not doing either of us any good'. It was like she just didn't get that she was putting HERSELF at this massive risk, and I felt quite responsible for it. I remember she said we didn't need other people involved, we could sort it out ourselves. And as soon as she left I emailed her supervisor and said she had to just stay away from me. That I couldn't deal with her any more. But I'd been the one who'd asked for the meeting. I think that was the thing: she always unnerved me so much, and there was never any chance of 'closure' - she just didn't seem capable of it.

I'm really f**ed up about all this, but also aware it's part of a wider pattern of (with some people - not all, I have many, many healthy relationships) feeling either totally consumed and overwhelmed or utterly abandoned. And nothing in the middle.

I don't WANT TO see her. I don't WANT her there. But it seems like so long as she is, she'll either be ignoring me, which feels like abandonment, or always watching, always looking for me. And I don't know which it is. And either option is really, really frightening.

Course, there is always the logical explanation, like my H says: maybe it's nothing to do with me and she's just shopping for soup for 1!

I don't WANT to avoid 'my' mall. I don't WANT to shop somewhere else. I want HER to get the hell out of my space, and for her never to have existed in my life. And I KNOW that's not a rational, adult response.

It seems the only way to get around this is through this, to come to terms with it.

I don't blame you for being upset she is closer in proximity. It just brings it all back every time you see her. I don't think there is anything you can do about this, unless you would move, but why should you have to do that.

Do you think this was a scenario something like, she was a therapist who had few clients, a lot of time, a need to rescue, a thought that she would do whatever it took to help you, saw you as very ill and needing extra, so she got caught up in how well you two clicked and decided to make it her personal mission to spend all her time and effort taking care of you, hoping she was saving you?

And....do you think for you she met a need, a deep buried need for someone to take over, fix you, take care of you and for a while it just felt good, and the more you needed, the more she responded, the more child-like you became, the more motherly she became, the more you needed or seemed to need, the more she responded?

From what I remember and what you have shared it seems like that could be a simplistic summary of what transpired. Now, even though that happened, she was ultimately responsible as the therapist. The therapist is always responsible for what happens in therapy. So she had responded poorly and did not deal with this situation correctly, obviously. She allowed you to become more helpless and childlike and dependent upon her. And it just got worse and worse. In the end you got scared right? And just at some point pulled away and left right?

So, even though she is not the best therapist and had poor boundaries, she might have thought she was giving everything to you to help and yet you were deteriorating. That was still her fault---the way she dealt with it. But maybe you can find some peace by thinking about this: Was it her INTENTION to hurt you? Or was she deluded into thinking she was actually giving her ALL?

She might be a needy, inept therapist, but so far I haven't seen evidence she wanted to hurt you. I definitely think she either was not ready for what transpired or just not skilled and also obviously had her own issues. She is apparently alone without kids or husband right? So her patients become more to her than they should. She neglected her personal life and this became dangerous for her clients.

I too have difficulty letting go of my past therapist, the one who held me, hugged me, told me he loved me, invited me to his small church, community, our kids got together, etc. He made promises he was not prepared to deliver. He had a doctorate. He was experienced. He was going through another divorce and really should have known better. I worshiped him and he liked it I guess. I don't blame myself. I know what happens to me, but he was still in charge. Have I forgiven? I'm not sure. It is part of just what I have to accept in my past. There was some good. It is difficult to remember it though compared to all the rest.

It is hard to find a really responsible and caring therapist who really truly puts the patient FIRST before their own needs. I have one of those now and I struggle because I still want more, more, more. He is skilled and draws boundaries. Yet I struggle. He says he gives me what I need, not what I want. I tell him I don't know what I want. I guess I should be grateful that I have him even though I have to deal with a lot of discomfort, pain, and insecurity on my own.

C2L

just read your post, and have to say I find it hard to accept that while her intention may not have been bad- it is a reason to forgive ok make it ok. A therapist has the obligation to make sure the client is ok. Any time a therapist gets caught up emotionally with a client- at any level- they need to step back.

Forgiveness in my situation had nothing to do with what the T's intention was- - the road to hell is paved with good intentions as the saying goes. The intention isnt the question- its the ethics and the fact that the T worked the relationship for their personal gain. And, like any of us, they ARE aware of it- the high cannot be ignored.

I think you were trying to say more than this, but this just was too blatant- felt to much like dismissing the true responsibilites that the T had. And, I, for one, cannot do that. If it helped you work thru your situation that is great, but I cannot make excuses for what my T did. He fed off the relationship knowing damn well how wounded I was when I walked thru his door.

Smiling,
I am in no way dismissing this or exusing this therapist. I thought I was clear on that. My intention/purpose was to help Susanna to be able to come to terms with this and let it go because, although it will always be a memory, it doesn't have to control her life. Easier said than done. It is sort of like my growing up years: I lived with an alcoholic father who wa abusive physically and verbally, a mom who was also physically and verbally abusive and dealing I believe with her own mental illnesses. I suffered a great deal and was very lonely and messed up. What should I do about that? People here say it is time for me to take responsibility and forgive and let it go and go forward. I find it even difficult to find somebody to listen to me about it, including therapists, who believe the present is the most important thing. I think it IS important to try to function in the present, but do I need to still process the past? I think so while some do not. But I'm damaged and hurt and carry with me ineffective coping skills I took on as well as beliefs about myself, etc. Sometimes when all this overwhelms me, I get bashed for it because I'm not making enough progress. I know all too well the effect bad relationships can have on a person. And as I said, I had a not-good-for-me therapy experience also, that lasted for about 3 years! I was in love with that man. He told me "I love you" every time!! I adored him. I got a divorce. I moved near to him and etc, as I already said. It was just short of sexual involvement. I know all too well what this is about.

Nobody really has the "right" answer to how to solve this, let it go, and live free. That is what I want for myself as well as Susanna as well as you too. I don't know your story, except for what you said above, about your relationship with your former T. I really cannot comment on it because I dont' have enough information, so please don't take what I have said to Susanna as something I have said to you also. It isn't as simple as "okay I forgive and can move on." I know that. It's got to be a process over time. I'm fortunate that I have a good T right now I can talk to about this, though we don't dwell. We also don't dwell on my past with my parents. Sometimes I think we should talk about it more though.

I've done A LOT of reading about psychology, issues of all sorts over the years. I don't claim to know how to fix anything, but I think it is difficult to take a therapist to court without something really blatent happening. There is just a lot of mucky water----is it "wrong" to see a patient 3x a week? Did the patient agree to that? It is "wrong" to hold a patient who asked to be held? I doubt someone can get sued for that. Is it ETHICAL? That is debatable. For us, I think we need a strong, solid, strict therapist! I know that now. I didn't then. And even if I suspected, I enjoyed the dependency and attention.

There are just so many issues here and it is complicated.

I do see what you mean about intentions. If some really delusional therapist thought that they were doing a client a favor by having sex with them (which happens a lot right?) :shock they are definitely wrong even though they might have thought they were doing a favor, which I find hard to swallow that anybody would think that though. I would like to think in the case of most therapists that mess up, it is not intentional. Maybe they see what is happening, but maybe in Susanna's case this therapist thought she was saving her or giving her so much that it would help Susanna. Susanna, if I remember correctly, became very dependent, suicidal, needy, desperate. A difficult situation, for sure, which would take a very secure and strong therapist to navagate. If you have a suicidal client who is talking about that a lot, what do you do? When do you suggest hospitalization and what if the client says no way will they ever to go the hospital? What if you are their only life line? What if there is a fear that if you cut back or set boundaries they will end their life? We don't know Susanna's therapist or her intentions and we weren't there.

I don't deny that her therapist had the responsibility, she did. I don't deny her therapist was wrong, she was. But I doubt she was out to destroy Susanna. Maybe she was not prepared and did not know how to handle this. Did she think to herself, oh I think I will get this client really dependent on me and just treat her like my own child and she will never leave me so I will always feel good? I doubt it. Did she get some of her own needs met? Yes! Did she have problems herself? Most definitely.

It because a mess basically, yet we still were not there to judge it.

Again, my only thought here is what can Susanna change or control now, what would be in her best interest, and how to deal with the difficult past? That is Susanna's decision in the end and again there are different schools of thought on these things, just like dealing with a difficult childhood right? She can make decisions here and maybe there are several choices.

C2L, thanks for that - it's good to get another perspective. And you are right - there is no single 'right answer'. Something I need to keep reminding myself of right now.

I agree that it is just a memory and this is where it should belong. And I think you're right in 'de-catastrophizing' it with a less threatening (and possibly more realistic) explanation. I don't and can't ever know what her motives were. And actually, it doesn't matter why she did what she did. It had nothing to do with me - as she told me over and over at the time. It was all about her.

I think that's why it IS so hard to forgive. Because she put me through hell and all the way back and it was 'nothing to do with (you)'. That was the only explanation I ever got.

Part of me still feels (rightly or wrongly - probably wrongly) that she should respect me enough to stay the F*** out of my way. I swing between feeling victimized (she's out to get me) and angry as all hell (get the f*** out of my mall), and find it hard to find some equanimity in the middle.

Last night it dawned on me that this may have nothing to do with HER. I don't want to invoke some transference explanation to exonerate her actions or minimize what she did to me: what she did may have been unintentional but of all people, she should have spotted what was going on (she trains Ts and investigates complaints). And instead of covering her own ass, she should have asked for and gotten help a lot earlier, before things got out of control (for her). And as sometimes-T points out a lot, Ts are trained to deal with suicidal, acting out patients. It's par for the course. It's what they do. And certainly somebody with her 'experience' and credentials knew a lot, lot better.

And it WAS hard not to take it personally when her whole history was of NOT connecting with patients/clients (a/c to sometimes T, who said she had 7 patients come to her wanting to leave ex-T when they were working together. Apparently she never connected with ANYONE). It wasn't like she was doing this sort of thing every day or with every person. In some way or another it WAS about me.

But it did occur to me that regardless of all that...maybe I am not afraid of HER, but rather, what she represents. Maybe this 'stalked/consumed or ignored' thing is to do with something and somebody else altogether. And she just happens to fit the relationship pattern, and that's why I am so afriad of her. We have certainly been there before, in that dynamic, her and I, with me trying to pull away and her pursuing me (not, I suspect, because she wanted me around, but rather because she knew I was a suicidal mess and I might talk to another T about how f**8ed up things were between her and I, if I got away) and then dumping me cold, at will. Maybe I am afraid she will 'capture' me again, because for sure, I felt 'captured' by her, and like my free-will was gone. She 'owned' me over that time, and there was nobody else in my life.

So maybe my fear is about something that has happened already.

Dunno. Doesn't make it any easier. But maybe explains why the fear feels so 'irrational' but real all at once.

Actually, thinking more. It DOES matter what her motives were for what she did, and why she did it, because it might help me understand the 'why' of her being in my face again, all of a sudden. But I can't ever know that. It will always be speculation. Even if I ask her to her face, she's hardly likely to tell me if the truth is unpalatable.

Some things that stand out to me:

She usually was cold or distant with clients---so that begs the question was she trying to change her style and she was not prepared to deal with what came up? Was she, in that way, not very experienced with an acting out suicidal patient?

Maybe you did stand out. Maybe she didn't have that many acting out, BPD type clients. We can attatch very quickly and intensely. Maybe she was having a lack of success with her "old" style of dealing with clients so she tried to change it. Maybe she had discussions with other colleagues who were more personable and warm and she got caught up in it.

I'm glad she said it wasn't you, but her---I'm taking that to mean that it was HER accepting responsibility for your becoming too dependent? It seems like that is what she was trying to say. And it was her responsibility. She was---for whatever reason---unable to control the situation. We don't really know how much she was trying to help or if she was trying to change her style, or if she was lonely and clicked so well with you that it became a personal relationship.

Another thing that stands out is you often blame yourself in this. I wonder if that is from feeling that in the beginning you asked a lot of her as far as wanting to be taken care of, needing her, calling her, just turning to her all the time? I wonder if you think you triggered something or caused it? Even if she became alarmed or just wanted to take care of you or thought her love in some way could heal you, she was still in charge of making sure that the relationship stayed in its place.

It's true that they are supposed to have learned all this, but in my experience it is surprising how many so called therapists will have blurry boundaries. I've been told "I love you" by 2 therapists, held, the above stuff, taken out for lunch, had a female therapist come to my house to watch a movie from a group we were both in. And yes, I was needy and wanted, wanted, wanted.

De-catastrophising sounds like a good idea.

You strike me as having a lot of independent qualities, running a business, taking initiative, self motivating. Maybe it was very scary for you to have become so dependent and needy and losing control? For becoming so different under the care of somebody who was supposed to help you become stronger?

I only hope for you (and all of us) that there is a pathway to peace from this stuff.

It is a shame this happened and you realized some scary things about yourself and scary things about the therapy world. It doesn't mean you will fall apart again and it doesn't mean there are not any good therapists out there. I hope you can continue to work through this and find some peace.

Question: You said she pulled away in the end suddenly. That must have been upsetting at the time to have had a relationship like that suddenly slam shut. Or had you already left?

Susanna,

How are you doing tonight? I keep thinking about you and hoping that you can come to a satisfactory resolution to the whole mess. You wrote that lawyers were involved. What did they do or say? I'm sorry that it came to having lawyers involved in order to extricate your T from you. It is such a betrayal of trust, and was in no way your fault. I also hope that you can find your way to some peace about it. Can you call your sometimes-T and leave a message even though she's out-of-town? Maybe she'll call you back.

Thanks, C2L. There's a lot there to think about.

Have a splitting headache and am finding the whole issue really overwhelming and...depressing, really. Just feels like exhaustion heaped upon exhaustion. There is so much going on right now it's hard to know where to start! So excuse me if I am a bit flat...

Just to clarify some of the stuff you raised:

- I wasn't even remotely needy to begin with. It took forever for me to feel even slightly comfortable with asking for another session or emailing her or whatever. And it was her that took the first step in 'getting personal' by email. I didn't become needy til a long, long way in. It's one of the things that makes me the angriest: I was very self sufficient and independent, and she encouraged me there - led me there, even

- she worked primarily with ED patients who, a/c to sometimes T, spent most of their lives acting out & threatening suicide (these were hospitalized ones)

- yep, it was devastating when we switched from having a very warm, friendly, seemingly never-ending pseudo-friendship to being standard T& client. The first time I left was before the 'style switch', after I went back (and put all my cards on the table about how uncomfortable our relationship was making me) it was a whole different thing. She was back to being the shrinky-shrink I had seen in the first place. And oh, I forgot! That's one of the reasons I chose her in the beginning! She was so reserved and so kept to herself and non-intrusive and not at all touchy feely (emotionally, I mean) and it felt really SAFE. That was everything I wanted in a T.

Gotta go to the gym now and see if I can't give myself a kick-start. Feel like all the life is leaking out of me. Too much going on, too many big, big life changes & now stupid ex T adding a layer I JUST DON'T NEED!!!

Hi Wondering

Sorry - somehow I missed your post. I was in a real state when I left work.

I went to the gym and did 45 minutes of hard out cardio. Felt much better aft that. Had to go to supermarket to get stuff for dinner. Left credit card behind, so bloody vacant!

Felt much better. But hyperventilating like crazy.

Out of town tomorrow, so will def do better for having some distance. Getting on that plane always feels so good when I'm feeling like she's everywhere.

I left a message with Sometime Ts office to get an appointment, but they never called so I popped in on my way past...had to sit in the waiting room for ages waiting for the receptionist to get off the phone, felt very safe there. Wished I could have stayed there. But picked myself up and went to the gym, and felt 100% better after that. I can see Sometimes T next week. It's a long way away. But I think I'll be OK. I know that if things get really messy I can call her. I'd hate to to it, but I could. I know she's there, I know she'd understand. And I know I have benzos if things get really ugly. I hate them, but I'd take them.

I'll post more later re the whole horrible, sorry saga (including legal opinions!). Have to go to doctor to talk re uplifting things like whether I should get both ovaries out (&....not that I would ever do it...both boobs chopped off) due to hereditary cancer risk. Ex T always manages to rear her ugly head at the worst, worst possible times.