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C2L -

Thank you for addressing my post. I apologize if I came off very harsh and attacking. I just have a real problem with these T"s (in particular) because I've yet to see one really step up and offer the client anything worthwhile. They always seem to run off , not deal, and protect themselves, leaving the client more confused than before. They had us open up to them, and they took in all this attention and emotional food/energy and then bam. just chose to shut down, and turn away, if we did not first.

I do agree we need to find ways to move on from it, and to lessen the impact it has had. As I said, for me, it's only been this last year when I am mostly ok, but things like this get me angry at these T's with bad boundaries. (At least now it is more generally directed vs right back to my ex-T-so, for me, this is progress.)

I also agree with you that there is a need to de-catastrophize it. I was looking at the situation differently tho (Susanna's current situation). To me I saw her being majorly triggered which suggests there is a lot there still to be processed.

I think you offered some great methods that can perhaps lessen the impact for Susanna.

I just felt that saying intentions weren't bad, was excusing the behavior.

C2L -

Thank you for addressing my post. I apologize if I came off very harsh and attacking. I just have a real problem with these T"s (in particular) because I've yet to see one really step up and offer the client anything worthwhile. They always seem to run off , not deal, and protect themselves, leaving the client more confused than before. They had us open up to them, and they took in all this attention and emotional food/energy and then bam. just chose to shut down, and turn away, if we did not first.

I do agree we need to find ways to move on from it, and to lessen the impact it has had. As I said, for me, it's only been this last year when I am mostly ok, but things like this get me angry at these T's with bad boundaries. (At least now it is more generally directed vs right back to my ex-T-so, for me, this is progress.)

I also agree with you that there is a need to de-catastrophize it. I was looking at the situation differently tho (Susanna's current situation). To me I saw her being majorly triggered which suggests there is a lot there still to be processed.

I think you offered some great methods that can perhaps lessen the some of the impact for Susanna.

I just felt that saying intentions weren't bad, was excusing the behavior. I guess I hold T's (most professionals) up to a higher standard. I guess while you were trying to de-catastrophize, I felt it was minimizing yet it is clear that wasn't your intention.

I was completely unaware of your own history with bad T"s (heard you reference such, but this is the first time I've heard anything about it).

I agree we all need to heal, and all need to find our way thru it. The person (t) doesnt have to be evil for this to occur. I don't think I make that type of correlation, but I guess it appalls me that they won't help the client see their way thru it.. too busy- probably out of fear of losing their licenses- protecting themselves. (no, i never bothered to file charges, tho at one time, I wondered if I should have at least reported him- with the hopes he'd look more seriously at what transpired. He did get supervision while I was still under his care but I left before I could see any direct benefits from that. His superivision actually made things worse because he wasnt addressing stuff only putting up new barriers when I was in need of just the opposite. From nearly day one my question was why was therapy so 'weird')

Can a mod please delete the 1st of these 2 posts.. # 2 is a lil more rounded out.

Ty

Susanna -

I'm glad you are using some physical exercise to help you thru this as well as reaching out to sometimes_T. I really think it helps to have a supportive place to process the feelings and help get yourself untwisted between the then and now.

I can very much relate to feeling violated because it feels as tho she is in 'your space'.

Sorry you have so much going on.

Regarding my own situation:
I did email my former T years later and I didn't confront him in any way by saying he was wrong. I never did. Maybe I should! He still says he thinks that he was trying to make things "real" for me (his caring) and that I got mixed up, that I confused things. Everything was about how I took it all wrong. THAT bothers me a lot. I often think about writing him an email and telling him exactly what I think of him now. Yes, there is still a part of me that misses the attention and that still likes him, but I recognize that he made some very crucial errors that impacted me in very negative ways and hurt me. I would like to just lay it all out for him. Maybe I didn't do that because I was somehow trying to keep him to where if I ever needed him, he would still like me or something. That is insecurity and hog wash. He will never be there for me. I think someday I might write that email!! I've allowed people to hurt me far too long----because at the time of being hurt it usually felt like I was getting some need met---being held, loved, touched, whatever, yet I allowed abuse, I allowed my mind to take a back seat whilst I aquired a false sense of being meaningful to someone, yet losing myself. Again, this has helped me appreciate my current therapist again. (sometimes I want to leave him because he doesn't give me what I think I need or want).

P.S. Thanks Smilin! I appreciate your post.

So I got off the plane & there's no food in the house, so we had to go to the supermarket on the way home from the airport.

I thought I was OK. I wasn't and I'm not. I am having full blown panic attacks.

My H said I should lay a complaint.

I asked 'on what grounds - that she's doing her grocery shopping?'

He said no - on the basis that it's four years on and I'm still so traumatized by her I am having panic attacks at the thought of seeing her.

F** it, it took me SO LONG to get over this last time. And so much is going on! It is the last freaking straw.

I am going to have the surgery.

I went to talk yesterday about getting the routine scans etc and he said 'don't do this any more - just get the damned things ripped out'. I know that's probably not helping. Even though it's a huge relief: decision made. Now I just have to find the $10 to pay for it. And I'm not going to be able to do that if I am an anxious, panic ridden wreck.

All that I can handle, though. Her, on the other hand...that's another whole thing.

C2L, I am sorry you have been there, too. I am sorry for all of us who have been screwed over by people who should have been helping - and all in the name of caring.

It's interesting, isn't it, how we are all still so strongly motivated to tell them again and again how much they have hurt us. I had thinking -time on the plane tonight thinking about that - about how I want to tell her AGAIN what she did to me. But I've talked about it til I am blue in the face. And it doesn't make a dot of difference. It's so messed up, the whole thing.

I can't see sometimes-T til next week, and I don't want to call her sooner, because there's nothing she can do. I am looking for a quick fix where there isn't one...I am going to have to go around this whole thing again and let it take its course and try like crazy to cling to feeling sane, and not crazy and suicidal and beside myself. Sometimes T can't do any more for me than I can do for myself. And if it gets really bad, I have benzos.

She would probably tell me to take them regularly for a few days to dampen things down, so this panic thing doesn't take hold. She'd say do it for 5 days, 3 x a day, every day and don't think about it. And she's always right. It settles the whole thing down and I don't lose my grip and I can cope again. And i will see her next week, so no chance to become a benzo-junkie between now and then.

I keep thinking I COULD call her supervisor and just spell it out: get her out of my face or I'll revisit the complaint thing to make her uncomfortable enough that she'll stay out of my way. But I don't think I should do ANYTHING while I'm so screwed up about this. Somehow I just need to sit it out.

Susanna,

Considering how triggering it has been for you to see your ex-t, and that it is causing panic attacks and recurrent PTSD symptoms, maybe you should talk to ex-t's supervisor and let her know what's going on. It's true that nobody can force ex-t to shop somewhere else. But if she was made aware of the negative effect of her presence on you, maybe she would willingly shop elsewhere. Is it worth a try? I really hate to see you go through so much stress!

Thanks, Emerging. I know I am getting REALLY boring about all this. I am boring myself!

There are just so many "I don't wants.." about this situation. I don't want to shop somewhere else and change my routines, I don't want to have to see her there, I don't want to be having these strong reactions to her. I most definitely don't want her to know that I am still affected by her at all, in any way. But I can't believe she wouldn't know how incredibly disruptive her presence is.

I don't want to talk to her supervisor, because it would open the whole thing up again, and I just want it gone...so badly. Honestly, all I want is for her to go away.

But it's like fairytale thinking. It's childish and simplistic and just plain not gonna happen. I don't know why I even contemplate it - it's like my grown up brain just gets jammed into this totally child-like and frozen up gear, and I lose my capacity to reason around this issue.

I DO feel better tonight. I am hopeful that I will be able to figure out a way through this. I don't know how. But my preference would be to not involve her in the solution, at all. I just don't want to be visible to her in any way, shape or form. My preference would be to learn to sit with these really full on emotions and ride out the fear and do what I want and need to do anyway: feel the fear and buy the groceries anyway!

It strikes me, when there are a lot of "I don't want"s, perhaps that means radical acceptance is part of the answer.

Ellen -

I like that correlation. Nice lil reminder there, thanks.

Susanna -

I like how you are processing this- how you are identifying the parts of you that are most scared as being the child who has determined this person isn't safe and has painted them all black in that sense. The adult 'gets' she has every right to be there, eh? And this is always the hardest part for me, getting past the child and into the adult to find a way to soothe and comfort the child on a level the child can absorb- which of course means, for me, on the emotional level. I'm still not succesful at soothing the child when she is kicking and screaming and angry about things. She still needs her tantrum (usually) before she can accept being soothed. Guess she needs someone to 'hear' her first and utmost. (wondering now, if i can take this piece and work with it next time.. made a wee bit of progress on this about a month ago).

I still think even if not soon, it would be good to discuss this with sometimes-T. While you may have come to a better place with it by then, it might still be helpful for you to share it with her. Maybe I'm seeing a little "I can do it on my own" and feel as tho, there is a happy medium.

Good luck with your health issues. It does indeed sound like you have a lot on your plate.

(((Susanna))),

I feel like, in a sense, we're going through the same thing now even though the details are different. I didn't want to post my experience last night in your thread, but I see the parallels. I don't want to have strong reactions to seeing my T in RL either! I want it to be normal! I was so upset with myself because I couldn't do that last night. I act and feel so weird with her. I don't feel threatened the way you do, but I feel like my life is turned upside down. I don't want it to be like that! So, yes I understand your feelings about wanting your ex-T to be gone.

I was fine until I SAW her. You've been fine too.



Yeah, that's the way I want it to be for me. I want to be able to handle my emotions when I see her, and not let her affect me. That's the adult speaking. Of course the child in me is screaming for something else entirely.

I still think you should see sometimes-T. Are you going to? It's a lot to handle on your own, especially with the prospect of your surgery and all the emotions surrounding that. I also have cancer risk in my family; it's not easy to make decisions about that.

I agree with smilin about doing it on your own. It's okay to get some help; you shouln't have to do it entirely on your own.

(sigh). That whole therapy thing.

To be truthful, I woke up this morning thinking 'cool. Meltdown over. I can handle this' with the full intention of canceling the appointment. Haven't done it yet. Probably will.

I really don't like to go there unless I'm completely on the edge - either worried that I am really losing it and life is getting severely disrupted, or close to it.

The surgery thing, other stuff (like my H just quitting his multi squillion dollar a year job to go freelance...now we're BOTH self employed!!!)...I can sort of deal with. It's just the x T thing that makes me crazy.

Therapy just leaves me cold. I really don't trust/like the whole process and I do think it's important for me to retain my independence. I couldn't STAND to get into that whole attached-in-therapy thing, and going too often would risk that. Plus I am mostly sane. it's just when I get seriously unnerved by ex or completely overloaded that things get messy. And there honestly doesn't seem to be any fix to that. I have tried, believe me!

I am moving offices soon, which will be a great relief. I will no longer be right next door to sometimes-T, and as much as it's been OK (and at times even comforting to see her around the place) I really feel ready to get some distance now.

Trouble re T for me is, I need help when I need help, but usually can't get in for weeks (unless I ask T to call, and I hate, hate, hate doing that).

I just don't like the whole process. I respect that it works for other people, and that others find it useful and beneficial. I also acknowledge that sometimes-T has helped me out of some serious holes, and i would call her, for sure, if things got really hairy, and I know she'd be there for me.

But I can't stand that whole reaching out and wondering if somebody will be thre for me thing. I hate the sense of one-down-ness that comes with being a 'patient'. I hate that I want their 'approval' and it's all so one sided.

I also agree with a quote I read somewhere, once:

that therapy is a way to get your heart professionally broken.

I've been thinking about this, as it has hit me close to home. And I had a discussion with my T today along these lines. I could have written what you wrote. What strikes me is that is how the "needy" me thinks/thought. (I'm still working on this).

I don't know if what I have to say is going to be helpful or not, but I hope it will, but it is what is in my own head right now and as I type I'm thinking and working too. So......

The "needy" me sees my T as if on a pedestal. This isn't difficult because of all his training, schooling, intelligence, and even kind demeanor. This "needy me" is attracted to all that in a way that I want to fill up on it. I have a part that is a huge empty hole that is craving something outside of itself to come in and fill up and overflow. That means I can see my T as having something that will fix me, feel good to me, that he has something to give me. (just when will he give it already!?) The "needy me" sees me as one down, him one up. The breaking of the heart and the one-sidedness I think speak to this "needy me" saying this person is love and concern and tenderness and you never got it and you need it, so lay it all down, become the baby and look up to this awesome being and start inhaling and sucking it in. This is the part of me that can get hurt because it becomes the child and the T the adult and the dance starts.

So I sit here thinking....I have some good friends. I like to be with them, to be open with them, talk to them. They help me and I help them. Sometimes I admire traits about them. BUT, at some point, I stop myself from putting them above me on that pedestal and at some point I stop myself from going to bed with them and just wanting and wanting more and more of whatever it is. I see these friends as more my equal and we do things TOGETHER.

So....therfore, with therapy why don't we see the T as more of an equal that we work TOGETHER with? They make mistakes, they aren't totally pulled together, they don't have the "something" that fills us up. Why not just see them as having some info that we dont' have and some experience and ways of sharing that. Just as if we had a client ask us to do what our special thing is---we show them because they don't know.

We also get that relief and good feeling in therapy, which apparently is necessary to do the work we need to do on ourselves, the difficult work. Maybe that comfortable and good feeling is what triggers some of us to want to lay it all down for that T and have them take over. It just feels so damn good, like what we missed out on, or what we just were born without. It SEEMS like they have it, but really they don't. I think we can get that same "good stuff" from our friends and even family, but it is just magnified in therapy.

What do you all think about this? I'm trying to find some answers about this strong attachment for a T and how to do that inner stuff---fill up from the INSIDE more--like what IS that? THAT is what I am trying to figure out, what that INSIDE FIX really IS.

I'm gonna have to answer this in bits...

Ellen, thanks for the reminder re acceptance. You are right. And I know that. rationally. I just get very, very frustrated because the rational part of my brain gets hi-jacked by the terrorized bit, and I can't seem to keep a rational grip on things. It's very upsetting, and sort of adds another step of 'OK, before I can accept that this other stuff is happening, I have to accept that I have fallen into a big, black hole of f**ed upedness.

Finally caved into drugs this afternoon. I had to - I couldn't work. I couldn't focus, everything was starting to scare me, and my head was swimming so much it was making me panicky, because I couldn't think straight enough to do my job. I don't know why I didn't take the meds sooner. I have needed them for a few days now, I think. I hate them, I am scared of them, but there are times I can't function properly without them, and this is one of those times.

I hate it that yoga and meditation and breathing and trying to think right just aren't enough sometimes. I fight and fight and fight not to take the drugs, but there are times I just have to, in order to function.

Thanks, Wondering for still being there. It does feel like different sides of the both issue, doesn't it? It's all about screwed up attachment and the inability to easily detach - because sure as heck, I am not detached at all, as much as I want to be.

I don't want to be with her or near her...but all the hating her being around IS another form of remaining connected to her. I want so much not to be, any longer.

Now that I am taking the drugs I WILL see sometimes T. She is never worried about me becoming a benzo-addict, but I worry about it a lot. and make sure I only ever get them from her, and that she always knows if I am taking them for more than a couple of days at a time.

I hate, though, that I am stuck in this hole again.

I read the thread about using triggers to get stronger, and being able to confront them, and I feel very ashamed. I should be stronger, I should be able to deal with this by now, I should not be running from what scares me.

And it's not for the want of trying, honestly. I have tried SO damned hard to get over this. I don't talk about it to anyone IRL (very sporadically to H) because it seems so ridiculous not to be over it yet. And I do feel that others here (clearly not you guys) must wonder what all the fuss is about.

C2L, I need to come back to your post b/c I am really interested in what you say but I have to race off to do something first,...

((((Susanna))))



There are no "shoulds." Please don't beat yourself up.

This situation reminds me a little of the situation I wrote about these past two days about a student therapist in my BPD group. I won't go into the whole thing here, but I basically have to do the same thing you do. Use Radical Acceptance. The student therapist isn't going anywhere. I don't know how big the town is where you live, but I would imagine it would be difficult to stop this person from shopping in the same stores you do.

I have spent the last week agonizing over my reaction to having her in the group. I have spoken to members of my group, to my T, and here on the board. I also have not discussed it with my H. I don't think he'd understand.

I think seeing her has triggered things for you and sent you into a tailspin. I can understand that. My suggestion would be to go to the sometimes-T and talk it over. Talking things out can help you so much! I know for me, talking things over helped me see things in a different perspective and helped take away some of my agony.

There is no time frame for getting over difficulties. Please don't be ashamed - you haven't done anything wrong! You're just struggling with a painful situation. I hope the sometimes-T can help you!

Susanna: This quote is so powerful!

Do you remember where you read it? I'd be very interested in knowing who said it and in what context. I think it's true for some people, but not all. Many people gain from therapy and never got their hearts broken. It's just some of us who are very needy get into this situation. Whoever wrote it was obviously very much against therapy.

I'm glad you're taking the meds and will see sometimes-T. I hope she can help you figure it all out. Yeah, it's difficult to sort it all out, I know.

C2L: I could have written what you did.

I

I always wanted to be equal to my ts. When I feel like their equal, I act more adult-like and less needy. Therapy puts us into the position where we feel inferior, but it shouldn't do that.



Me, too. It comes from feeling that we are worthwhile and that life is worthwhile. It comes from making a difference in someone else's life, and feeling that we are special. It comes when we don't need the T to fill us up because we just feel it ourselves.

Thanks for articulating the problem so well, C2L.

I guess I am fortunate. My T tries to tell me that we are working on this together. He behaves more like a teacher than anything. He never makes me feel "less than". He has often said that he admires and respect his patients for having the strength and guts to share their innermost thougths and feelings with him!

Wondering, does your T actually make you feel less equal or inferior to her, or is that your perception? Do you feel inferior to her due to having a "mental illness" or because you might have less education than her? Or do you walk into the therapy room feeling inferior just because she is your therapist?

I think we bring a lot of preconceived ideas into therapy. Things about what we want out of therapy, what we expect from our therapists, what role the therapist plays in our lives. A good therapist should have good boundaries but also be able to help the patient explore these issues. I doubt very much that my T would want me to feel inferior to him.

I've had a few therapists in the past - who were all men - who assumed the "father" figure with me. They would tell me I was neurotic and treated me like a little girl. I never bonded very well to them. I felt they didn't respect me very much. One of them was the doctor who feeded my addiction to Xanax because he was tired of me calling and complaining about anxiety all the time. Needless to say, my therapy with them all didn't amount to very much. I didn't see much respect there.

My current T wants me to take responsibility for myself and for my feelings. I am attached to him, but not in a father/daughter kind of relationship. I don't feel he is above me or superior to me. You don't have the same education as your car mechanic - do you feel inferior to him (not trying to be sarcastic - just trying to make a point).

I know hiring a therapist and seeing them once a week is not the same as hiring a car mechanic. We tell our T's far more personal information than we ever would to a car mechanic. But we need to very much try to put things in perspective. Our T's are not magicians and they are not all saints. They cannot be everything we might want them to be. It's not fair to them to put them into that position. They are there to teach us and to guide us.

I also get the rush when I have explained something to my T and he "gets it." When he understands me. But I imagine that would be normal in therapy. That's kind of like having an "aha" moment. I've had the same feeling when I meet a new friend and we find that we click. Basically it's two human beings understanding each other. Even though it is one-sided, we still are paying our T's for a service. At the end of the day, my T goes home to his wife and 3 kids. I know he's not thinking of me. Sure, wouldn't it be great if he did? But that' not healthy and it's not realistic.

I think great therapy can be achieved and we don't have to feel that our T's are gods. Sure, I am impressed with my T and with his education and his style of doing things. I get all excited when we have a good session and he knows where I'm coming from. It's a great feeling! But he is not a god. He just happens to do his job extremely well.

I respect my T greatly and I respect what he tells me. He's more often than not correct. So for me, he has a good track record. He obtains results. That's what counts.

Maybe therapists should have some sort of sign on their doors that say something like "I am not G-d" or something like that. We need to give ourselves reality checks every once in a while. Maybe that would help.

BG--I don't want to answer your questions in detail because I'm afraid the thread is getting off-track, and after all, it's Susanna's thread; however, this whole discussion of the one-sidedness of therapy and how that affects us is very interesting and relevant. I don't think Ts set out to make us feel inferior, but it's inherent in the arrangement. It's more a feeling of inequality rather than inferiority. I think this topic is discussed in that wonderful book about the bond between women and their Ts. I forgot the name of the book, but I know it's been mentioned on the board before.

I want to add, BG, that you have the ideal client/therapist relationship. You have the boundaries intact. You are attached to your T, but you see him realistically and in no way want him to be other than what he should be, to you. That's wonderful!

Hi - not minding the 'off-trackedness' of this at all, and will come back to it, but just had a major revelation over on another thread, and it all makes sense as to why I am so worked up about this:

By resuming shopping at 'my' mall after respecting my request for a few years, she just totally mowed down my boundaries AGAIN, and AGAIN she broke a 'contract'.

I put it to her (through her people) four years ago that I would drop the whole complaint thing if she would stay out of my face where possible - and specifically stay away from my mall.

And she did. She immediately started shopping somewhere else (it wasn't a whole of life thing, it was just about the every-day, routine stuff, ie 'don't put yourself into my day to day life').

I wasn't asking for her to change her life in any other way, nor was I asking that she change something long standing - for God's sake, she only started shopping there when things fell apart in the therapy. Probably purely coincidental, but STUPID, when she knew damned well it was my neighbourhood (and a small one, at that).

I can't stop us bumping into each other at restaurants and book stores (not that we ever do: it's only ever the freaking supermarket) or the hospital or wherever.

Now she seems to have suddenly (and unilaterally) decided that 'agreement' no longer stands. I had some 'power' in this wonky, f***ed up mess, and now it's totally gone.

And it's NOT like I am just triggered b/c I am a screw up and I am not working hard enough on my 'stuff' or whatever. I am freaked out by her because she systematically (intentionally or not) created terror in me over a very long period of time, exploited my vulnerability for her own gain, and damned near almost killed me with her ineptitude.

She owes me a shift in supermarket. I am not saying she owes me handing in her licence or withdrawing from her pompous and puffed up committee and board positions or a hefty financial settlement or even a proper 'sorry'. She just owes me the courtesy of complying with one small request.

And even though I wish it was otherwise, maybe the statute of limitations isn't up?

I am not fixed on this position. I will think about whether I want to let it go a bit, and 'allow' her back there in my mind. But I want to start with where we are supposed to be. And then decide if I am ready for this or not...

OK.

Gonna see if I can backtrack some...

Bordergirl, thanks for the understanding. I HAVE been in a tailspin, but I tink I am righted again (for now!). I have had a very easy day, went back to bed for a few hours and just read and slept, h brought me lunch in bed, and I finally emerged after that. Am just plain beat. A lot going on right now.

I will talk to sometimes T this week.

I WANT to be all beatific and serene about the whole thing and completely radically-accepting, because it fits with my value set (and would be a way more productive and comfortable way to be!) but I am some way off it..in truth, I am miles away. I have to figure out what to do to close that gap.

Wondering, I think the quote came from the very book you referred to 'In Session'. By (i think) Deborah Lott. Hated that book b/c it sort of glorified the closeness in the T relationship, which I don't think is really very healthy. But that's just me.

Oh, the whole equality thing...I could write a tome!

It's never possible, I don't think, to have a truly equal relationship in therapy. And I'd go as far as saying I don't think it's HEALTHY to equalise the power balance. That was one of the things that got ex T and I in so much trouble. The illusion of equality. In reality, of course, she still held all the power. It just LOOKED like we were sharing it.

The reason I think equality is neither possible nor desirable is that whichever way you look at it, the T holds virtually all the power in the relationship:

- T gets to control access to the relationship - final say on when, how, for how long, and how much it will cost

- T sets the boundaries (or removes them, as the case may be) eg this is how it will be if we see each other outside of the T setting, this is how and when you can contact me, this is how and when I will respond. Boundaries are usually seen as protecting the T (in truth, they should be there to protect BOTH parties)

- T holds very real power to have you locked up (or recommend that you are), to disclose to others if she/he thinks you are a danger to self or others

- T sets the treatment plan (maybe in consultation with the pt, but ultimately, it is up to T to decide and implement direction


I don't think equality is the answer: it just confuses things, and leaves both parties vulnerable to misuse of the relationship. Like what happened with me and ex T.

I think acknowledging that the T has greater power is a good thing. A healthy thing. Where things go wrong is when that power is either hidden or disguised and played down - or goes over the top. Either because the T exercises it in a dangerous way or the client hands over too much power to the T. Which I guess, C2L, is what you are referring to.

Susanna, instead of focusing on the "equality" in the relationship, can you try to remember that you are still paying this person for a service? You DO have control. You can walk out of therapy any time you want. It is not mandatory- no one is forcing you to be there. You pay this person to help you just like you pay the butcher for meat and the tailor to shorten your pants.

That said, let's dissect it a bit more. You DO reveal more to this person than you probably would to your butcher. But remember, you are there to receive a service. You are not there to make friends. This is not a club or a women's group. So the decision has to be made as to what you want. Do you want a friend or a therapist? Do you go to your gynecologist and expect him/her to go out and have drinks with you after your exam? Probably not. Why do we get so caught up in wanting to be "friends" with our therapists? We don't do it with other service providers.

I know the pull is there. It's very powerful. But to me, the bottom line is that if I end up friends on the outside with my T, a few things happen. I still need a therapist to help me with my problems. Since this therapist is now my friend, it's inappropriate for them to be my therapist. So, I now have to find a NEW therapist since my old therapist is now my buddy. I know this sounds simplistic, but there really is no other logical scenario. Either they're our friends or our therapists. I have a lot of friends, but I still need a therapist. I need my therapist much more to help me through my problems than to go out to dinner with him.

I guess I'm just trying to put this in perspective. I know many of us have had childhood difficulties and look towards our therapists to fill in for people in the past who have hurt or disappointed us. But that's not their role. Their role is to help US deal with these issues.

One of my rules of thumb is that I try to look for health-care professionals - not just therapists but doctors too - who I don't have a chance of running into in RL. I won't see a doctor or therapist who I know goes to my place of worship. I sometimes will even knowingly not go to a doctor who is the same religion as me so I know I won't run into them in my place of worship. Some of them I dont' care about - my dentist or foot doctor. But I don't want to run into my Family Doctor or GYN doctor in social settings. They know too much about me and I want to keep that separate.

I know sometimes it's out of our control. I ran into my GYN once in the supermarket. She said hello and I didn't even recognize her! I was so embarrassed! And my foot doctor goes to the same place of worship as I do. But as I said, that's okay. But the more personal the issues are with each doctor, the less I want to run the risk of being with them in a social setting.

Again, as far as "equal" goes - we have to remember that we pay our T's for a service. We go in to therapy knowing full well that we are going to tell our T's things about ourselves that we probably never tell anyone else. And we know that they will not tell us things about themselves. But it's set up that way and we need to be aware of that going in. This relationship is just the way it is. If someone can't deal with that then maybe they need to find another way to get their needs met. It's not fair to the therapist to expect the therapeutic relationship to be anything else.

As far as power goes, I think we choose to give away our power. It's our choice how much control we will allow someone else to have over us. Our T's are there to teach us and guide us. I know I get into power struggles too with my T. But I think that is how we as BPD people sometimes think. Let's say you're some regular guy and you find out your wife is cheating on you. You struggle with it and decide to go to therapy to work it out. You hire this therapist and go once a week to discuss your marriage. This "regular" guy, who doesn't have BPD, knows why he has hired the therapist and is there to work on his marriage. Nothing else. He probably won't get into a power struggle with the T. But because of our issues, we have these needs and desires and issues that other people don't have. It's part of the BPD stuff. So we strugle with this power issue with our T's. We have to try to be practical and see that there doesn't have to be a power struggle.

I'm sorry this got too long. Your post just got me to thinking about a few things. And please, I have struggled with this therapist thing for many many years. I was extremely attached to my first therapist and almost in love with her. Even though I'm attached to my current therapist I know what the boundaries are and what to expect and what not to expect. It makes things much easier for me and causes much less grief.

Susanna -

First, I want to say I think you are doing a pretty damn good job of processing all that is going on for. (this said, I still believe, that you should talk to sometimes-T as you've mentioned.)

Second, I was very much surprised to read that it was agreed upon, as part of the discolure and settling of things with this harmful ex-T that she stay away from you. I don't remember reading that before AND it provides TONS of credibilty as to why you have been SOO upset over this. - T broke her word; an agreement and it shows disrespect for you and as well as indictating that this means nothing to her. (who is she to say you should be over it, or enough time has passed?- imo, she should never have taken this step.)

This situation puts quite a different spin on why you are feelng so invaded and disrupted and all the old feelings are being resurrected.

I encourage you to pursue the proper avenues for her to cease this action- if you are not ready;you are not. AND it again goes against everything that was agreed upon and makes a statement that her needs are , again, more important than your own- no wonder the old feelings are here- the original problem cropping right back up.

As far as equality in the relationship. I don't believe anyone ever has power in a professional relationship. It is what makes it professional - their knowledge above our own- whether its your accountant; laywer; financial advisor; real estate agent or mechanic.. it is all the same- we pay them for their expertise and knowledge. Our only control is listening to our gut feelings and any time that seems off discuss the problems and then make a choice to stay or leave.

That said, of course the T relationship is more complex. Dealing with the human psyche and emotions is very complex. Take just this issue of T relationships- there is such a spectrum of experiences and needs here it's pretty eye-opening.

From what you've said this relationship never was about you seeking out, or even craving in a known way, a mother figure/protector/friend (whatever role she ended up taking) that however didn't stop the roles from being blurred and that type (which ever it was) from occuring. I see more, and perhaps I'm very wrong, that she keyed into - perhaps initially unintentionally- an area in which there were a lot of wounds and openness and eventually, because of what she gained from tapping into those, she exploited them. And, it happens all the time, as weve read here and can read elsewhere. It doesn't have to be a blatant desire/craving on the behalf of the client. Hell, ,even extra-maritial affairs dont always start out as a blatant desire /craving.

Guess the point I am trying to make is that yes, while there is some imbalance in the relationship, they do have a purpose and it is understanding that purpose that makes the relationship work. If that is misunderstood and/or abused, then all hell breaks out.

The client has a lot of chuoices- we dont have to take the extra sessions; we dont have to make those extra phone calls; we dont have to write those emails; we dont have to reveal all we do on the level we do. As far as getting comitted- those items too are usually agreed upon before hand- a T will usually state that if x, y, z occurs I will be required to take actions such as this and this.

It is when we- in any relationship- blindly (or even knowingly) turn over our choices and control that we are succeptible to damage. Again, I hold a client/T relationship up to slightly different standards and place much more of an onus upon the T. But, I don't absolve the client. I think some exceptions always occur- such as in the case of extreme PTSD and disocciation a client could be sent back into their old abusive situations and falll into that victim role. I am just not educated enough to know when and/or if that would continue long enough that a client still could not make choices or get out.

I met a gal in a chat room some years back who had an extremely dangerous relationshp with her T. No matter who said what or how or how much she (seemed) to grasp that she was being abused, she refused to leave. Very scary to see her jusify staying. To feel that that was better than the unknown of not having this T. -One big reason- she knew she would never trust another T.

I am very glad you have found some other professionals to trust. I would expect you would need a lot of healing before you could come to trust one in a way in which you could see them regularly or rely on them for too much guidance. I do hope you continue to use a T on an as need-basis and I do hope over time you learn the degree to which you can trust them.

I am very impressed with how you have handled this. Will be following to see how you resolve this issue. I can, and have, very much understood how triggering it is for you. It became much more clear however when you stated that there was an agreement that she stay away- that puts a very different spin on things.

I am very much fascinated with the entire client/therapist relationship dilemma. It is frightening to hear stories of clients being abused because the therapy becomes almost like a trap, and you feel like you are being brainwashed. I'm both an outsider looking in, and an insider looking out. I wrote an essay years ago, which I titled "The Transference Web". It was about how I felt trapped and overwhelmed by my strong feelings for my first T. I didn't understand much about therapy then, let alone how transference works. I was so vulnerable that if my T had been unethical I would have felt powerless to get out of the therapy.

So, smilin, when you say the client has choices, and does not give up power, I disagree. Yes, it IS very scary but the nature of the relationship can make the client feel totally powerless. I agree with Susanna about this.

Susanna, I understand what you mean about the illusion of equality. It's happened to me in my therapy. My T and I can talk about places and people we have in common, or I can see her at a wedding, but SHE sets the boundaries. I'm not her friend. I pay for her to talk to me. You're right. Thinking in any way that we are equal just sets me, or anyone, up for a huge disappointment and rude awakening.

Yeah, the book is In Session. She's not anti-therapy, so I wonder why she says that. But I feel like I've had my heart professionally broken by two different Ts. I thought the author painted a realistic picture of the bond that develops. That's the problem. A bond develops for most of us. Or maybe not for most of us. Ash said she never had that problem. Others don't either. We're back to that brain difference you mentioned. Did you mention, or did someone else, that there should be a warning just like on drugs, that therapy can be dangerous for some people? I don't think Ts realize this. My T just told me that she can't help me solve the problem of seeing her in RL. Duh! She's supposed to help me with my problems, and this happens to be one of them!

BG--I see the benefits of choosing Ts and doctors who aren't in your neighborhood and who you would not likely ever run into. However, my H and I see our internist in our neighborhood all of the time, and he is willing to answer brief medical questions then. It's kind of convenient! But a T is different. Like mine said, I want her complete attention, and I'm not going to get it in a social setting. I feel like I know her intimately, but it's the reverse. She knows me intimately, so it seems like it's an intimate relationship. But you're right. If my T became my friend, I'd need a new therapist! So, what if someone's friend is a T? They shouldn't use them as a T? Therapy is such a complicated undertaking.

Susanna, if your ex-T agreed not to shop by you, and she is indeed breaking her promise, then I agree with smilin. No wonder you feel so threatened and violated. I hope you can resolve the situation soon!!