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I get an uneasy feeling reading this thread that some of it is directed at me.

Would I be way off beam?

Nothing in my posts was directed to or about you, Susanna. You didn't come to mind at all as I was writing those posts. Can't speak for anyone else, however.

Thanks - maybe just my paranoid brain working overtime.

J Kabat-Zinn rocks, doesn't he?

Yep, his is very special, powerful juju.

The other bit about the paranoid brain... not to worry. It is sooo BPD for something like that to happen in all of us. Just another opportunity to learn what's going on in there.

Susanna, I took the position I did because I happen to know more background information about what Amanda brought up here since it stemmed off something we had discussed in a PM. What I have seen is that Amanda does so much self-reflection that she will accept the blame in situations that are clear examples of another person overstepping her boundaries. I am glad that I am not the only one who has noticed this about her and that other people have also pointed it out to her. Where we have a difference of opinion is how to handle such situations.

In general, I think self-reflection and owning the problem is the best choice but in situations where the other person plays by an entirely different (deviant) set of rules, I don't think it is the right thing to do. Amanda may be finding value in purposefully allowing herself to be triggered and I can't argue with something that brings her positive results. I personally think there are situations with certain people where they will allow others to own the problem, and in fact blame others outright, in order to avoid taking responsibility for behavior that is damaging to their relationships. I had to rethink my own conclusion that avoidance is the best answer to the problem when I decided to remain here and work through some things that I am struggling with in the company of people who have helped me work through difficult issues in the past.

As always, I admire Amanda for being able to look at things in ways that bring her positive growth. I am not saying it is wrong for her to expose herself to people whom she knows trigger her in order to process her own reactions, what I am saying is that she does not need to own another person's bad behavior as her own problem to solve. Had this topic come up from someone else in a different context, I may have responded in an entirely different manner without the background information I have in this particular situation.

Susanna, I can assure you that nothing that I've written in this thread was directed at you, nor have I ever thought any of this applied to you. I'm not sure why you would think it was? If you want to discuss this, I'm more than happy to.

Denim - yeah we do have a difference of opinion about how to handle this. I think exposure could teach me to be more tolerant and to expose me to stuff that would allow me to access and let go off old anger/hurts from the past (similar behaviours displayed by people in the present that trigger the past.) My T however agrees with you that avoidance is the best option. In fact she has asked me to stop coming here. I'm not sure I want to give up the board though. We're working on the reasoning behind that (not a discussion I want to get into on the board ATM as it's all still fairly new territory.) So when I have 2 people that I respect & trust telling me the same thing, then of course it's given me something to think about.

I'm managing the shop for the next 2 days (2 X 12 hour shifts) so I won't probably get back to this until Monday.



LOL!

ignore me, am sky high on flight-or-fight hormones.

But Denim, THANK YOU!! You have identified for me what I am so p***ed off about and terrified of re my T. Am heading over to my thread so I don't get things off track here.

And thanks for the clarification, appreciate it.

This is interesting, because I have of late been thinking about being here myself. One - I think that it could condition one to act a certain way because the people here are so sensitive. As I said, irl, a lot of things are not needed the way they are here. I could say the same thing to someone irl as I say to someone here, and irl, no one thinks I am non-empathetic. I want to be "normal", which means accepting certain behaviors as "normal", and knowing when to speak up and react and when not to, regardless of the behavior. At the same time, although I do see some people who act in ways I really don't like, I tend to migrate toward the ones I do like, and I suppose I do the same thing irl. It's simply learning what things are triggered from normal behaviors, and which are triggers because that person really isn't healthy for me, and I would dispose of anyways. I've had to learn to accept certain behaviors as "normal" to belong, behaviors that initially triggered me or caused me to think in a paranoid fashion. Exposure I think does help me, because I am inevitably going to be exposed to certain behaviors somewhere down the line, and I want to know how to handle that and how to think of those behaviors. At the same time, to be surrounded by triggers I don't think is the way, because that would keep us triggering with no time to work it out. Exposure at our own pace I think is the way for me. What if I completely ignored or ousted all who bothered me from the get-go, without working it out? Inevitably someone will come along (at probably a very important time for me), and throw me for a loop, and I will act out - possibly someone at work whom I can't oust. My bf takes "abuse" everyday at his job, he is a manager and he has to manage a bunch of emo nerds, some of them who can't come into the office because they scream at people when they do. But he has learned to handle them, because it's hard to find talent. It takes putting yourself in a place where certain "abuse" doesn't make any difference, and I think with exposure, one will grow to find that place. Honestly, would you care if a 9 year old called you a name? That's pretty much how it is in his mind. People haven't grown beyond doing so.

Right now I am trying to find a place where I feel comfortable here, a place where I can say what I think without walking on eggshells or changing my thoughts and what I want to say, because the world won't do that for you. I feel almost stuck between a rock and a hard place, because if I do become more empathic, then I may become strange for the normal world, and a part of me believes too much empathy is enabling. It was actually a lack of support that led me to finding a better place.

I think perhaps you may've been in a situation where you were possibly owning the abuse given by someone else? I have been in a situation where my bf would hit me or whatnot and then blame it on me. I actually DID play a part in these battles, and I figured that out later, that I was allowing it by not drawing a boundary or changing the situation. He, however, did not want to own his own stuff. I figured out that if you don't play their game, ie set yourself up for the abuse, they will go away and eventually they will come around on different terms, and if they don't, then too bad for them. They can stay in the muck they have created.

And that is my part, that I will not react in certain ways no matter what, that I will uphold myself to a certain set of behaviors and that is that, else I am doing no better than they are, because I am playing. And when most of them figure out you won't play, they go away. And that's where my responsibility lies in the puzzle. At that point, it really doesn't matter what they do or say, or who they blame, because I'm not playing.

I've actually been through this same scenario, with my mother/father and another health condition lol. Nah, I tried screaming, it doesn't work lol.

It was more of a situation where I pointed out to someone that her behavior is unacceptable and her response was basically that there is nothing wrong with her or what she did followed by questions asking what is wrong with me or what is it about me that I would respond to her in a disapproving way. She is unable to look at her own behavior except to defend it and lay the blame on the other person (as far as I know this person does not have a healthy relationship with anyone). There is no point in having anything to do with this sort of person because they will always blame others in their lives for their own messes. Therefore I don't want to be around their mess because I don't need to get caught up in their own private drama.



So one option would be to remain near this sort of person and allow their crap to fly everywhere without responding to it in the hope that eventually they will stop on their own. I don't find that helpful for myself or that person. I have found that I need to stay out of the crap flinging zone in order to be truly uneffected by flinging crap. That means that where ever that person chooses to fling crap, I have to remove myself out of range. I know that Ash has stated that the goal is to reach a place where someone could enter a person's home and fling crap without it having any effect. I would rather tell that person that it is not okay to be flinging crap around me and kick them right out the door if they do not understand that it is not okay to treat me that way. I find it unacceptable for other people to act in such inappropriate ways and I do not expect to focus my efforts on learning to live with their problem behavior, especially when they mean nothing to me.

If I am invested in a relationship, then I am more likely to tolerate some poor behavior in the context of learning from mistakes. I don't expect people to be perfect and I am a forgiving person. I can't even invest myself into a relationship with someone who has no regard for others, though. I am not willing to give anything to a relationship with someone who only takes, seeking narcissistic approval for their dysfunctional personality traits.

Unfortunately, ignoring a problem does not make it go away. You can only "ignore" a "pink elephant" for so long before it is in your lap and you will be crushed under its weight. I don't think that scratching it behind the ears and rubbing its belly does any good either.

Oh, well. Back to the drawing board.

Well, I think we are describing two completely different scenarios. If I go to work, and there is a crap-slinger, that doesn't mean I will engage with them in crap-slinging. As long as two people aren't slinging crap at me, then let them sling their crap until they learn. But if they sling crap at me, which they probably won't, because by my own actions, they will know I am not a player, then I will draw a boundary or take it up with a manager, etc. But that doesn't mean I am going to be drug down with them into playing their game. It also doesn't mean I would ever be engaged with a crap-slinger in the first place to where they would ever be invited into my life. I check that stuff out beforehand. But there is a grey area, where I can handle some people in various amounts that I think may be somewhat messed-up now but have hope for the future.

I think the goal is to be able to be in-range but know that you won't be hit by the crap, because of your own actions, because avoidance all-the-time is idealistic. But that is something that has to be learned over time.

I have no idea where you got the idea that I believe ignoring a problem is the answer. I am completely the opposite of that.

I'm simply saying that when you refuse to play the person's game, they will move on to someone who will. And that's drawing a boundary. Then you will get the respect you deserve. And if that person doesn't want to give you that respect and they continue to try to pull you in the muck, then too bad for them.

I don't have to fix them or solve their problems. They can do that themselves.

So inherently, we are saying the same thing. Just in different ways. But that doesn't mean a person has to be completely gone in order to uphold a boundary (ex/ at work, that is not possible).

I have a lot of difficulty with triggers as well. I found this link:

http://www.dbtselfhelp.com/html/opposite_action1.html

it's the DBT scripts from Marsha Linehan... it has been a livesaver to me in these types of situations.

Hey this is interesting because my T and I were discussing something along these lines. How when we are well we are less likely to chose unhealthy people to be in our lives. I guess this is part of her wish for me to not come here - wanting me to leave behind unhealthy relationships so that I can invest more time and energy into the healthy ones.

I'm inclined to agree with you though, that there is a grey area. I'm only too happy to spend a limited amount of time around people who might be messed up, so long as I can see evidence of them trying to change. Those who just continue to behave badly and in messed up ways, and never show any signs of changing are not worth my time. This is the main reason I refuse to have a relationship with my family in the UK. I could learn to live with them, grow a thick skin, armour myself with tools to cope with their bullshit, but why should I? I want to live my life and enjoy it with like-minded people, not spend it, figuring out ways to handle being around difficult people who don't want to change (mainly because they can't see anything that needs changing.)

I guess I'm pretty much saying the same thing as you said

Well, that's pretty much it with me. If someone adds value to my life or wants to change and has shown me they are taking the steps to change, then I will welcome them. But there's no need to swim around in the muck with people who are sick but don't want to take the steps to do anything about it. I no longer have any contact with my family either, except for my mother occasionally, and I'm pretty happy about that decision. I don't want to make it harder for me to change by surrounding myself with people who are only-too-happy to drag me down with them.

It seems to me like you're attacking people. You're the one that posted. And it seems like you're giving everyone an ultimatum...

Sorry, You lost me with this one? Do you want to explain more what you're talking about?

i am so sorry... i only read it halfway.. and then i tried to delete my comment but it wouldn't let me..but i misread it sorry

erink - Ok, mistakes happen. You ok? I sent you a message. If there is a problem, Ipm only to happy to discuss it with you.

Amanda,

I HOPE YOU DON'T LEAVE THE BOARD!!! :shock

I WOULD MISS YOU SO!!!

Emerging - this is one of the things that makes it hard for me to leave - the relationships that I have developed with some people here and not wanting to let them go, but I think one day (and maybe sooner rather than later) I will have to let go. I would want you and all those people I feel a special connection with to know, it isn't personal. It's just a natural part of my growth. I too would miss you and feel a loss.