BPDRecovery.com: Forums

Interesting combination of things in the title, I know, but I just wanted to bring this up in a public discussion to see what others think of the idea.

I notice that a lot of folks seem to think "avoidance of triggers" is the best way to deal (i used to do it myself so I can understand it and am not judging it), but I'm actually finding the opposite and that hunting out and finding the things that trigger me, gives me an opportunity to heal.

When I find myself reacting intensely to somebody in the here and now, it is usually a cue that this person reminds me of somebody in my past who has treated me in a similar way (an old issue that is unresolved), OR I am seeing behaviour in another that I don't like, that I have not yet accepted or acknowledged within myself. Whatever the reason for my intense reaction, I am given an opportunity to then explore my reaction further and to hopefully make steps forward.

I've basically accepted that I cannot change what I perceive as "bad behaviour" in another. No matter how much I feel triggered by it or bothered by it; No matter how much it pushes my buttons, and makes me feel like screaming or running away; unless they are willing to self reflect, there is no point in telling that person "this behaviour troubles me" because nothing I can do or say can change that person, unless they want to change. The kind of people that seem to be particularly triggering for me; are highly narcissistic and can see nothing that needs changing, so it is pointless to point out to them their bad behaviour. I've pretty much learned that most N's don't, won't & can't change, because they can't see anything wrong with themselves or their behaviour (no ability to self-examine.)

So, I have to look at me. What I can do, for me, in order that the unhealthy/bad behaviour of X, Y or Z person doesn't have the power to push my buttons? In doing so, I find that I actually "use" that person (indirectly) to stir up my reactions. I purposely observe the bad/unhealthy behaviours that these people display (the ones that wind me up) in order to feel triggered. I then work through the underlying stuff, release those old feelings and take the power out of the "intensity of my reaction" so next time, I don't react at all.

I'm aware that my reactions in the present are simply because of unresolved emotions from the past that were suppressed and by releasing them now, I rid myself of the trigger. Bottom line, it's about accepting that the behaviour of X, Y or Z from my past, hurt me and it will continue to hurt me so long as I hold onto it. So, If I purposely use others to cause a trigger reaction in me, I can then release those old feelings now and let them go. I'm adult now and it's safe for me to do so (it wasn't back then as a child.)

My experience has been, the more old wounds that get opened up and lanced and those old feelings let go off, the less 'triggery" I become. Things that used to really trouble me, no longer bother me at all.

One main point I want to make is that when I talk about reacting to others behaviours, I don't usually express or show that reaction. I walk away and look at it in private or with my T's assistance in therapy. This isn't about reacting and allowing bad behaviour on my part. My T tells me it is good and she wants me to bring my reactions to therapy to be observed.

This is my thoughts on triggering & using people - I think it is a good thing to get triggered. I do however feel kind of weird with observing & hanging around certain types of people to purposely have my buttons pressed, even though they are oblivious that I am doing so and it's not harming them in any way. It does feel kind of like I'm using them. Do others here do that? I'm interested to hear others views on self-reflection when bothered by behaviours of others or how you deal with it?

What a marvelous post! Amanda, I try to do as you describe. I'm not going to lie. I sometimes get caught up in the reaction to the trigger(s). When I do stop to think about it, I realize what you've realized. Either the person or situation that triggers me either reminds me of someone from my past or of things about myself that I don't like. Or things I used to do that I now have an aversion to. You're right that looking at the trigger is a great way to learn to be less triggered.

Thank you for posting this!

You're so right. Exactly what I do.

What do I do? I try to figure out what it's linked to. I try to figure out WHY this person bothers me so bad. Because when it bothers me, there is some reason why, and I can identify it in time. In a few months, after I've thought about it and shifted my thoughts, and dealt with the past event that was triggering the present one, the person doesn't bother me anymore. There are some people I am simply going to find more annoying than others, even without triggers, because of the way they think and the things they do. I tend to try to put myself around people I like. When I'm over the root of the problem, I barely even notice these people anymore. My focus shifts to the people I find things more in common with.

I'm also finding that the process is getting quicker for me, as in, identification of problem, dealing with past issue and applying new thoughts and methods, and solution. I can run through in a week what it took me 3 months to do before lol.

Your human. We're all human. If we could stop ourselves from reacting 100% of the time we'd be super-human - LOL! But, even when we do outwardly react, as you say, we can still self-examine afterwards & we can try to make amends in most situations. I strongly believe that for the most part, I am doing my best, so I forgive myself when I make a mistake.



Yes, this is another cause of intense reactions; that I'd forgotten about - When I see somebody displaying unhealthy behaviour that I myself used to display - it's almost like I'm afraid to be near them or they might contaminate me again - LOL. Thanks for reminding me of this one.



Yeah, I'm finding that too. The more I work through and release the underlying stuff, the less reactive I become to similar people in the present.

I agree that there are some people that will still bother me in the present (without all the past stuff getting triggered) and that the best solution is to keep away from them or limit how much time I spend with them and focus more towards those who I have more in common.

Thankfully the process is getting so much quicker for me too. It's all about being able to self-examine, rather than finger point. I agree that It's nice to be able to put something to rest after only a few days, instead of a few months.

Thanks for your thoughts/comments Trinity and Aqua.

Yea, definitely nice to feel a bit of a sense of achievement when the struggles are easier.

It seems that whenever I have a conflict with someone else, my immediate response is to question "what is it about me that results in my having difficulty with this person?" and I had to stop doing that so much. I have come to realize that the people I have problems with tend to be problem people, in that I am not the only one who has difficulty with those people. I used to also wonder "what is it about me that causes people to treat me this way?" when I was in abusive situations. I realized that people mistreat me because I allow them to and I have to stop giving people permission to treat me in ways I don't want to be treated by them. I think there is definitely value in self-reflection, but sometimes we are not to blame just because certain people can't take responsibility for themselves. There are people in the world that are best avoided and so there are also books about "toxic" relationships that give some ideas about how to protect ourselves from these people.

What has helped me know when to use self-reflection versus when to use self-preservation is talking to others and finding out what they see from a more impartial viewpoint. I want to make sure I am not jumping to conclusions about someone based solely on an emotional aversion to that person so I go through a process of "reality testing" to determine the facts without being influenced by the feelings. If there is something in myself that needs work, I am more capable of working on it in a more "safe" environment where I am not being triggered by the person or situation.

Nah, doesn't matter whether they are what you think are problem people or not. If they bother you, it's up to you to figure out why and to move past it.

I tend to pull the trigger on certain kinds of behaviors rather than classify people as types that trigger me. Often I don't really know enough about the person to classify them. I don't know why they did what they did and usually can avoid making judgments about it. But I surely know how the behavior makes me feel and I have reacted quickly and powerfully in the past. (My fishin buddies wouldn't let me fish alone on certain streams lest a big ol' powderkeg go off unexpectedly if I saw somebody trashing the fish.)

And the triggers tend to be about core values more than anything. So I've come to realize it's about my take on the values and not about theirs, except their take is obviously egregiously wrong and I am obviously right as rain. It' s about what I learned the "shoulds" are... (my "shoulds" should be their's too, no?) Things like caring for infants and young children, caring for the Earth and it's critters. Listening and being polite and trying to be helpful when your being paid, in part with my money, to listen and be polite and be helpful.

There are some very few people in my life whose behavior patterns have been so consistently unpleasant to me that I just go out of my way to avoid them. Others surprise me. There are folks at work who do stuff that upsets me frequently. And on other days they do stuff that I admire or endears me to them. I will compliment them as quickly and genuinely as I will chastise.

I have been feeling blessed that recently I've learned to see the triggers coming far enough in advance to put a trigger guard on the gun. It's quite an experience to "watch" a reaction forming and just watch it in silence till it passes and then try to constructively finish the business as quickly as possible and move on to a more friendly environment.

So.. it's all about me when I trigger. That doesn't mean I have to like what they do. I can dislike it immensely. But my reaction is totally my responsibility.

And I think I might have learned that last point here. YIKES!!!!

Oh, yeah... and that other thing... the one I started out to write about....



I believe that no matter which approach you choose, this practice can be exceptionally helpful in changing our behavior. At least in making ourselves much more distress tolerant. I think Linehan and one of the other DBT workbook authors publish lists of situations we can use to practice these skills. Hundreds of them, designed to get a reaction from the other person that causes a reaction in ourselves that we then get to observe and manage. From telephone calls to stores to going into government buildings for help. Of course it helps to have a plan and know what you're gonna be looking for within yourself and have an idea about how you will respond to your reactions when and if they happen.

Really is a strong and helpful idea IMO, Amanda.

I agree with IBF. I find that I can't classify people. But if certain behaviors are brought out in them, I can choose to stay away or not. And also how much will I tolerate from that person? I used to tolerate a lot. But I am getting tired of that and find that I don't need people as much as I used to think I did. I used to put up with a lot because I didn't want to be alone. But I'm not as scared to be alone as I used to be, so I can be stronger than I used to be. A perfect example of this is the friend I "lost" last year. It would have been very easy for me to try to re-establish a friendship with her. But her behavior went against what I think is acceptable and I won't allow myself to be put in that situation again. I stood up for myself and used some self-respect.

I also find that I'm basically getting along better with people now that I used to in the past. I'm learning tolerance and not judging people as much as I used to. It opens the way for new relationships that I didn't have before. I still have a ways to go, I know that - but I'm trying to pick apart those situations that I still have trouble with. That's my biggest challenge right now. Trying to learn why certain people trigger certain thoughts and behaviors inside of me. But at least I'm aware of it. I never used to be in the past.

I have always hated triggers and tried desperately to avoid them, as once I become destabilized, it is hard to regain emotional control. However, I've begun to see (as others have mentioned) that when I am strongly triggered and reactive, there is usually a reason for it -- and that reason usually has something to do with MY issues, rather than being strictly about what the other person said or did. If I can endure the trigger and ride through the emotions until I get calmed down, then I can look at the situation more objectively. Then I can usually get some insight about why I reacted the way I did, and see where I can do more self-work to straighten out my issues and reduce such triggers and overreactions in the future. So. . .as BAD as being triggered feels, I am seeing there is often VALUE to it.

My advice was specifically for this particular website. See, the reality is that this IS a safe place, being that physically, no one is going to reach out of my computer screen and grab me lol. If I read something and FEEL unsafe or threatened, then that is alerting me that there is some sort of problem occurring within me, that that person has triggered something or I am reacting to them though my own patterns that were set from past events. And then I can work it out. Actually, I can't imagine a safer arena to work on my problems than BPDR.

This makes a lot of sense for real life situations, but on an internet forum, I can choose to draw a boundary by ignoring the person I don't like, and if I can't do that, then there is something going on within.

Denim, I think I see what you are saying - I've had it pointed out to me that I have a tendency to over-analyse myself when I have a reaction, even to the extreme that I overlook the wrongness in the behaviour of the other person. I allow the bad behaviour in them, but take it on board that its all "my stuff" because I reacted to it. I make myself the "bad guy." SOmetimes, as i've had it pointed out to me it's just simply somebody else's bad behaviour and that my reaction to it is perfectly normal and understandable. But how do you know when it's just a normal reaction or when it's about somebody else's stuff? This seems to be where I get stuck, so In my case, I usually go straight to self-examining, rather than finger-pointing. Sometimes, it isn't possible to reality check.

IBF - Yeah you seem to know what I'm talking about - purposely exposing myself to situations, behaviours or people that I know will cause me some discomfort, so that I can learn from them.

BG - Maybe that's one of my problems. I used to allow any kind of behaviour and abuse and saw it as ok, and now I've gone to the opposite extreme and have no tolerance for any of it - Could be why I find myself reacting strongly when I see it happening??? ANyway, kind of getting off track.

E2 - Glad you are finding value in being triggered.

That is exactly what I am talking about. We tend to take ownership of other people's problems and all it does is excuse them from changing their behavior. We allow them to mistreat us because we assume it is our fault that they treat us the way we do. I still go straight to self-examination by default so it is a process of "reality testing" that helps me know if it is about me or not. I find that I am not the only one to respond in certain ways to bad behavior and that helps normalize my response for me. I can then set boundaries to protect myself and put the responsibility to change back on the person who truly has the problem and the ability to fix their own problem.

Sometimes the evidence is in the other person's own words as they might indicate that they have the same problem with other people and blame those other people for the problem. If another person has the same difficulty in their relationships with other people, it can't be all about me! Problem people are usually the ones who frequently complain about the faults of others and continually lay the blame on everyone else without ever seeing how they are the ones responsible for the problem.

Another way of knowing whether or not we are to blame is knowing how other people would treat us in the same situation. If another person's behavior is outside of what a "reasonable" person would do under the same circumstances, then they have a problem and it is not about us. That is when it is helpful to recognize that we don't need to accept the blame for the other person. Some of us are so good at accepting the blame that others will expect it from us and they will get angry when we do not enable them in this way.

As I recall, you were feeling harassed by someone in private messages and you analyzed your contribution in depth. You could see that you were triggered and you were able to figure out why. This is healthy self-examination. We need to look at how our actions may not measure up to our own expectations. What you did not do, which was a healthy response, was to take on the other person's garbage as your own. It is hard to resist picking up other people's garbage, especially with people who seem to expect other people to put up with their crap. We think that it is our responsibility to "make things right" with the person and so we take the blame in order to avoid conflict. Sometimes it is better to walk away and let the other person sift through their own trash with the hope that someday they will recognize their problem and deal with it more effectively.

A boundary does not protect us from abuse. It is more of a statement that "if you choose to do what I have expressed I will not tolerate, I will take a specific action" and then follow through with that action. The more abusive a person is, the less they will respect our boundaries, even when we have repeatedly make them very clear. In fact, abusive people will usually deliberately choose to test our boundaries by doing the very thing we have asked them not to do because it is a way of exerting control. I have had an experience where I asked someone online to leave me alone, only to have that person make several very deliberate attempts to "bait" me into breaking my own boundary by responding to her directly. It can be very difficult to ignore a particularly attention-seeking person who does not wish to be ignored without it being necessary to remove oneself entirely from an environment where that person has the ability to push other people's limits. Sometimes the only means of protection we have is to stay away from someone because abusive people treat people in abusive ways.

Amanda, something else occurred to me that I should mention (after I have already posted twice in a row). Sometimes the reason we can't perform a "reality check" with other people is because those people are no longer subjecting themselves to a particular type of person and they have already figured out how to get away from that type of person. That is when we can take a look at their actions and perhaps follow their example, even though we no longer have the benefit of talking to them anymore.

Yea, exactly, stay away = completely ignore. Not talk about how much someone bothers us, ie, baiting a person. Simply ignore. Talking about someone without mentioning their name, where that person can figure out who you are referring to, is baiting, and honestly, you are asking for it by doing so, so at that point I am expecting that person to react. In fact, some people may see that as abusive. It takes two to tango.

I had to learn that as well, the hard way, when I continued to ellicit reactions from people by doing so.

I was having a discussion about this with a close friend tonight (in person) and it would seem that the 4 agreements has some input into this. The way I see it, taken to its extreme level - not taking anything personally - allows a person to throw it all back out there and to take no responsibility for anything they do or say.

Somebody yells at you and you say "It's their stuff. don't take it personally" but what you don't do is self-examine and ask yourself "What did I do, if anything that caused this person to yell at me in the first place?" It may well be that I did something that provoked the person into reacting that way, but if I use the 4 agreements to the extreme, it can be used as an excuse to not take ownership of any of my bad behaviour whatsoever. I can get away with provoking somebody and if they react "it's their stuff." This is a behaviour pattern that I find particularly disturbing when I see it happening.

I guess my therapy has taught me the opposite of the 4 agreements. It's taught me to go away and self-reflect when conflict or triggers arise. What did I do wrong? How did I contrinute to what happened? What is my stuff? What is theirs? But, unfortunately I still seem to be stuck at the extreme of owning it all. I'm aware of this now, much more so and with more insight and understanding of it, so hopefully I can swing back to the grey area. It's sort of the opposite end of the spectrum from those who use "not taking things personally" to its extreme.

I can see this hypothetical situation, as well as the real one being discussed on and off, in the opposite way.

I don't believe the Four Agreements give anyone license to do anything hurtful. I see the opposite. I don't believe "don't take it personally" means the same thing as "anything is okay, because it's their stuff not yours".
If you tell me I'm a low-down dirtbag, it may be your stuff and I will want to remind myself of that, but that does not make it acceptable to anyone.

If I then ask you politely but firmly to leave me alone in the future, and you come to me the next day calling me a dirty evil dirtbag, that's still your stuff, whatever it is, poor soul, but it makes it even less acceptable.

I also believe the Agreements are meant to be worked together, always, even though we learn them as separate and in sequence. Agreements One, Three, and Four tell us (and them) to be very careful with our thoughts and words so as not to foment misunderstanding and emotional damage. They tell us to not assume we know what another is thinking or feeling when the call us a dirtbag, and that we cannot know without asking. And finally, they teach them and us to always do our best when speaking with and listening to others, so that if a person was intending to call me a dirtbag and saying Agreement Two makes it ok, I'd have to say.. nay, nay... but I'm willing to try to understand what you're thinking and feeling, so long as we both try to follow all four.

To me, if that doesn't work, and the other person insists on abusive behavior, the Four Agreements, separately and together say to me... Ignore completely. Don't take it personally. And do my best to ignore completely despite any temptation to look at or rise to the bait. It has worked here for me several times, thank goodness. I've nearly fled several times, and still have to fight the temptation. That's my stuff and the Agreements help me with it a lot. Now I use it as an opportunity to observe and work on my reactions and responses when I can't avoid it. To me, that's doing Agreement Four, with Three, Two and One along to help me as I work on them.

You ARE so right! You know they say you can't change what people do, but you can change your reactions to what they do.

I spent a long time thinking that if something triggered me, then my friends/family knew it triggered me, shouldn't they avoid doing whatever it was. Now I see that was totally ridiculous on my part.

The fact is that sometimes I don't even know what triggers me. A song or a smell can bring on an intense bad reaction and feeling of dread and I am having to learn to STOP and think before I fly off.

Girls looking at my husband always made me go off on him and the other day I told him, ya know you're a good looking guy and you shouldn't have to dress down or try to look unattractive so I don't go way off on a tangent about cheating/trust/past grievences...It has been so healing to face those things and say I can get past this, I can deal with it.

IBF - I understand when all of the agreements are used together, they can be a powerful tool, but I see it all too often when "don't take anything personally" is used as a stand-alone tool and my point here was, as a stand-alone tool it becomes an excuse to not look at ones own bad behaviour and a means of throwing the blame back out there. Another main point I'm trying to make is I seem to have a pattern of going to the other extreme and owning it all. I think I'm going to re-read and re-study Ash's book over the next wee while - the chapter on separation of stuff.



TBH - this is one of the main reasons that I'm looking at this subject so closely, because I currently find myself in a scream/blind eye situation as a member of this board. The temptation to run a mile to avoid the triggers is so strong, the temptation to react towards the source of the problem is really strong and what I'm actually trying to do is find the "grey zone" - How can I come here for me without feeling completely frustrated and infuriated by displays of what appear to me to be obvious bad behaviours that seem to be allowed to go unchecked.

In the process of sorting through, I swung to taking all the blame - my reaction was all my stuff, but a reality check of sorts (including from my therapist) has shown me that I'm not wrong in my observations and that some of the owenership (in fact most of it) belongs outside of me. I'm also of course using this situation as a distress tolerance exercise, even though my therapists advice has been to remove myself from this board as she cannot see any benefit in my being here (this is her opinion and it's up to me to decide.)

nowandzen - thanks for sharing your perspective on the idea of being triggered. I like the example you used about your husband.

I agree completely, Amanda, and share a similar reaction. Actually, I think that's only one of several maddening games commonly used here, and I'm at a loss to know what to do or say about it within the terms of the ROE and group norms.

So my approach is to take a quick look at how all four apply to what's been written that I'm reacting to, and then to look at all four as they apply to my reaction. What I'm left with is trying to learn one thing from the encounter each day it occurs based on that study. It ain't easy, no it ain't.

But in the end, I believe it will be a very powerful learning for me. Kind of like an extreme form of your idea when you posted about intentionally putting ourselves in the path of others' reactions that we expect to be difficult for us and learning from our response. It's painful, but I suspect if anything good is going to come of it, that's the only way I know to make that happen for me. For me, it's the only constructive alternative I've thought of to those wild swings you mentioned which have taken too much of a toll left unchecked.

I too am feeling the same way, although it doesn't infuriate me. I simply get frustrated when I try to communicate with someone and they just ignore it or simply don't understand what I am trying to say to them. And I have done enough experimentation to decide it is mainly their problem. I do find if I see a certain injustice taking place, and I do see hypocrisy all the time, although at certain times I am sure I was engaging in that as well, that I will work to get my point across, whether it is being listened to or not. Eventually I may have to approach that person directly, but if that's what it takes, then so be it. I decided that if no one else was going to make the point, then I was. It seems that when I do tell them what I think, the frustration subsides. It doesn't have to do with my opinion, it's either a hypocrisy or a serious breaking of a rule, or simply that the other people refuses to listen or learn. And I'm the first one to admit, I DON"T have the patience of Jobe, nor do I believe I will ever be a counsellor-type. But some of the entitlement around here is simply disturbing. It seems that borderlines have a bad case of know-it-all'ism, regardless of where they stand in life or the stupid things they are doing to harm themselves. And some will stand for things and do another, it's almost comical the hypocrisy that occurs. And I can see some of that in myself as well.

I think I'm getting closer to my grey zone. But I am definitely up-and-down on the patience meter. I am seeing that it is in my own actions how another will respond to me. And I am not having much trouble right now with staying out of the way of abuse. I think if I act a certain way, I am guaranteed to receive abuse. At the same time, I don't have to have the kind of empathy outside of this board that I have here. And I am seeing that as well. Other people simply aren't as sensitive as we are. And sometimes my bf will say, "You don't have to explain that. He isn't going to be hurt by that, and he will think your behavior strange." And it's because I am assuming the other person will feel the same way I do, but he doesn't. And I am trying to learn those "normal" behaviors. I can say the same thing on this board and be blistered for it, that I can in real life and it's considered normal.

I have struggled with this for so many years in real. I'll use my experience with my daughters as my best example. It applies to all of them, but the most recent example is the most colorful for me. It's really a matter of figuring out why they refuse. They're surely not stupid. Extremely intelligent women, as a matter of fact. Like they mama. And she did it too, of course.

From what they tell me, the WHY is that when I'm determined to give them a solution that will bring wonderful results, they're not ready to hear it. They want to hear validation of their thoughts and feelings and don't care what my solution is. They think that by refusing to give them what they want, and insisting on giving them what I want to give them, I'm being abusive!!!

The current example is with my youngest, who is thirty. This kid has been suffering extreme pain with endometriosis for ten years. Two surgeries, many pain management strategies, becoming addicted to pain killers and needing to go through a long difficult detox... etc.

So a year ago, I tried to introduce her to Jon Kabat-Zinn's mindfulness - meditation - yoga program for pain management. He's had wonderful success with this for decades and it seemed like a perfect fit. To me. Sent her the book, and accompanying CD audiobooks, and asked, two or three times if she'd just begin and follow his program, which is eight weeks. Wait to judge it when it's done, which is what he asks in the book. Nope. Then I encountered the ACT workbook on pain management, mostly a CBT/DBT third wave kinda thing that looked like a sure bet to change her relationship with intense pain. Sent it and encouraged, from a distance, twice. Nope.

It's as though the very fact of someone else offering a solution at the wrong time or in the wrong manner, is reason enough to reject it.

And so this lady who could have reduced her suffering from pain significantly months ago, still sits curled up on the couch writhing for nearly two weeks each month. Will not do anything to get health insurance and start medical pain relief. Seems to want someone to parachute in and fix it for her. But only when she doesn't know it's happening or only when it's coming from someone who she knows or believes accepts her for who she is without question.

Yes, it's her stuff, and mine is mine. Makes me want to scream. Maybe that's the next best strategy.

Shall we just start screaming when we encounter this stuff?