BPDRecovery.com: Forums

My Sis went to her T yesterday and her T told my Sis that, "As a young girl, you got used to making lemonade out of lemons."

Meaning, that my Sis had stayed way too long in an unhealthy relationship.

Sure, in our family, boundary setting was unheard of, so that is a factor. Also, the emotional, verbal and physical abuse didn't help much either.

But do some of us stay way too long at a "bad" job, in a "bad" relationship, in a "bad" situation because we are trying to make that lemonade?

Where can someone begin to get some answers?

I'd love any and all feedback...

It's interesting that the T said "making lemonade out of lemons." I always took that saying to mean something positive. Like if something bad happens to you, you look for the good in it. But talking about staying in unhealthy relationships is different. It doesn't seem to me that that is making lemonade out of lemons. I would have used a different expression.

I think there's a lot of reasons people stay in unhealthy relationships. They're afraid of change, they're comfortable staying where they are, they're afraid of what else might be out there, they feel intimidated to leave that person.

Maybe your S's T meant that she tried very hard to see the good in an unhealthy relationship. And at some point she needed to see that it just wasn't going to work.

I guess I don't have any answers - I just wanted to comment on what you said. I know for me, if I'm in a bad relationship or situation, it takes me a long time to figure out what to do. Sometimes I just don't recognize that it is a bad situation. I guess the bottom line is that I'm not apt to change things. I usually wait out a situation.

One basic simple rule of thumb for people dealing with abusive situations:

If you've never experienced different, how do you know?
If you're worth;success;meaning come from outside, listening to yourself means danger not safety; enlightenment or anything else?

I think anyone who's been in bad situations knows it takes ALOT to learn to balance the internal messages (which finally, in abusive situations, begin to get mixed with the external as well as mixed with the low-self-worth ones) with the external. It takes learning to trust that others do care and want the best for you without there being a personal gain attached for them. How often does that happen?

If you've always been beat down- being around others who dont can feel more intimidating than it can feel helpful or insightful or realistic... caution flags will go up.

------

Likewise - when one describes a bad situation- in comparison to what?
this itself can be key.. one can easily move from one bad situation to the next because the complexion changes hence it looks or feels (least for awhile) different.

What it takes to change/get out........ strictly depends....... on so very much. volumes can be written imo.

Making lemonade sometimes = "It could be so much worse."

I wonder if when we're little rugrats and we encounter fear and terror on our own for the first few times... when there is nobody to help us get constructive answers, our minds go to one of several places to build a fort for our mental selves. One place it goes is to shut down entirely. It can be a completely involuntary response... another place it sometimes goes is to the Lemonade Stand. And you can be sure that if whichever route it selects leads to the desired place of relative safety, it's gonna make that same choice again sometime.

So for those of us who encountered fear and abuse from within our families, we learned to look for the bright side. I suspect that one of the reasons we sometimes do that is so that we do not have to face the fact that this person who I depend on for life, who is supposed to love me and nurture me... actually dislikes me so much.. or can be so angry at me.. that they could conceivably hurt or kill me. As a five year old, I don't think I have a chance to escape, because the world is a dark scary place. So what can I do from here? I believe our minds simply will not let us dwell on that proposition, and it sends us off to the Lemonade Stand. In order for me to feel ok about who I am, I have to make Lemonade or else.

Could be worse, eh?

Making lemonade out of lemons is good, but perhaps even better to let the lemon alone and eat an orange instead.

To me, "making lemonade out of lemons" means making the best of an unpleasant situation.

But I suppose it could be viewed along a spectrum -- anything from just "looking on the bright side" . . to creating an alternate reality that feels better than the truth of what is happening (denial). . .to outright dissociation.

To put that together with what I said above, and with the original situation. Sometimes it's better to get out of the bad situation.

BG wrote:


and EllenKMR wrote:


How does one begin to "see" that it is a bad relationship? How does one begin to choose the orange instead?

Smilin' wrote:


IBF wrote:


How does one begin to recognize that they are staying in something that is "bad" when it is such an ingrained coping mechanism?

Sure, making lemonade out of lemons can be a positive thing, but in my Sis' situation, it was not. It can be seen as 'distress tolerance' as well, ya know?

Emerging wrote:


How does one stop feeling terrified like a very young child and realize that they can leave, they will survive and there are a lot of "oranges" out there? How can one even begin to see that there are "oranges" out there when all they've known are the lemons? Do the lemons feel comfortable while the oranges do not?

I mean, standing outside my Sis' situation, I clearly saw a lot of signs. Sometimes (being my usual helpful [controlling] self) I'd point it out to her. "Look, that is a red flag, don't you see it?!" She'd make excuses and pooh pooh it away. Some rationalization like, "all men cheat". And all of the men in a relationship with her did cheat. Is that who she is attracted to? How does she begin to know; to see the red flags?

I think saying "You got used to making lemonade out of lemons" is a misleading or an incomplete analogy. It doesn't sound like quite the unhealthy action it can be to me, for the points made already in this thread. (Can you tell I spent most of my life *trying* to make lemonade - fruitlessly? [no pun intended... at first] :shysmile )

I think those of us who tend to gloss over red flags or put the 'Enough!' bar way too high or the 'Walk' sign indefinitely on Pause do so because of a deficient degree of self-esteem.

[The other extreme might be those of us who see flags that are barely waving, put the 'Enough!' bar so low everybody clears it, and have a hyperactive 'Walk' sign. Also signs of deficient self-esteem, I'm thinking. Anyway...]

In order to notice oranges, I've had to realize [with guidance and time and lots of focus and knocking down fences of denial...] that lemons weren't good for me and that it took more than lemons to make lemonade and that I didn't really even care for lemonade anyway (even though I was raised to think I did). I came across an orange while I was with my second really big lemonade recipe disaster, at least I thought it was what an orange looks like. I married him.

Turns out he's not the sweetest orange - he gets bouts of citric acid, not unlike my volatile stepdad (surprise, surprise) - but, all in all, I like orangejuice. It sustains me, offers lots of nutrients, and it doesn't disagree with my stomach nearly as much as lemonade.


I'm not making light - just using the given metaphor. I think sticking with something after we sense it isn't good for us has to do with self-esteem and fear of the unfamiliar. I know how I deal with fear of the unfamiliar - I try to see past the obstacle and just do it. The self-esteem part... that's not so cut-and-dry. Or maybe it is... Deciding to get familiar with feeling worthwhile can be scary, too.

~ jr

JR, thanks for your perspective. I appreciate it. My Sis doesn't just see "making lemonade out of lemons", for her, it is a coping mechanism in a bad situation/relationship. She "puts her big girl panties on and just deals".

Not healthy for her; and costly.

So, how do we know when it is time to "cut and run"? Many can't as the relationship is "unchosen".

Boundaries? Sometimes a chosen and unchosen loved one bulldozes over the top of those.

In the beginning, the road to where I am at now was so rocky and I fell several times. It was hard to convince my H that I was seriously trying. For a time there, he thought I was just "hoovering" him.

That is where our couples counseling with a DBT T was extremely helpful. The T let my H know that it was going to be rocky and difficult for me at the beginning.

What if my H had left me then? I don't know. What if I'd cut and run?

Most people I know who know the story say I stayed too long in my marriage. I can appreciate their thinking and agree with a great deal of it. If you go from the point of view that no emotional abuse is tolerable, then it can easily seem to make sense to cut and run. I agree with the equation, but not with the solution. Unfortunately, she did.

After two years of "all white" she went to "all black" in a matter of a few months. I could see it happen, literally. The rants became more frequent, more intense and less rational over a period of several months.

And it had a lot to do with being triggered by some of my very own style of BPD behavior.

My reactions were to chalk it up to early and horrid abuse, physical, sexual and emotional from age 10 to age 20. It looked like classic PTSD dissociation. So I thought there could be a fix.

I really didn't take on the abusive things she said. Not only did I not believe them, but I couldn't (and can't) understand how she did. I've put together some bits of reasoning that make the path visible, but there are many blind spots.

So denial was present before and even after the divorce and the dawn of Radical Acceptance. I suppose I would have stayed forever. Actually, I'm certain of it. I'd experienced so much worse in my life that this did not seem like much of a hurdle.

When I realized that I was doing my recovery work with the hope of convincing her to see the light of reconciliation, I knew I'd been on the wrong track. So I had to make it for myself and whoever stayed in my life and those who come newly into it.

I feel so sad and remorseful for the pain she caused herself. From the vantage point of it's own beauty, I feel a tragic loss (not to me.. but to "life" and all who knew us...) over the death of an amazingly beautiful relationship. Of course I don't even want to think about the my own sense of loss and sadness.

It can be a huge loss to bear. Though I surely had a choice about it, I felt like there was none. I'm sure I would have stayed and am pretty sure that would have been the wrong choice in the end, even with my own little recovery successes.

I think that this is it - the coping mechanism of making lemonade out of lemons.

Because we HAVE experienced much worse in our lives. We were just babies, toddlers, young children, teens with no way of protecting ourselves from the abusive situations that we were in. We couldn't just "cut and run"!

Hence, the coping mechanisms come into play. Dissociation, the act of going somewhere else in my mind to escape my physical surroundings, was a good one for me.

How and ANYONE know that they are using outdated, ineffective coping mechanisms? I didn't realize that I "dissociated" until I had a T point it out to me. Then I learned "living in the moment" and "distress tolerance" tools. Someone on here brought up the "three strikes you are out rule" for the new relationships.

IBF, it sounds like you are in a good place. "Little recovery successes"? Hah! :biggrin

IBF~

I have a question for you:

What would you differently now? How would you handle 'things' differently? (I am being serious.)

I think it comes down to boundaries and sense of Genuine Self.

I can still use the concept of taking the lemons life hands me and make lemonade - when it comes to working for a crappy boss, dealing with a bumbling fool of a teammate, facing canine cancer in my pack, etc. - as long as I'm still able to honor & respect my Genuine Self. If something doesn't feel right and infringes on my boundaries, that's a sign that it's time to return the lemons from whence they came (or throw them out.)

My dog getting cancerous tumors falls into "lemons" but it doesn't infringe on my boundaries so I can make lemonade out of that.

My husband being a complete jackass would also fall into "lemons" but if it's infringing on my boundaries (verbally abusive, cold, distant) of what I will accept/tolerate in a marriage and has no end in sight, then I won't make lemonade out of that. I deserve a happy marriage in which I am appreciated and respected. I owe it to my Genuine Self to take action to return to that place.

If my husband's going through a rough time and the buttheadedness is (or appears to be) situational and there is an end in sight (new boss, new job, new car, etc.) then I can make lemonade out of that. It's not a permanent shift in the relationship dynamic; it's temporary and for the greater good / the long run, I can make the best of things for a short while.

That's a very tricky question, GH. I don't think I can get to apples and apples from here.

One of the main factors was my own BPD behaviors (blame shifting, sarcasm, grumpy Saturday mornings, road snits.) If I'd had the same recovery work experience before she split that I had afterwards, I could have and would have removed the triggers easily and gladly.

But it didn't happen that way. She split and then my recovery work, which I'd proposed six months earlier, began.

But let's say I had made some recovery progress before she split and got abusive. In all probability I would have reacted quite similarly. But I would have known a LOT more about PTSD and what was going on with her. So what would I have done? Hmmm..

I would have reacted less defensively to what she called boundary setting which was more like punishment.

I would have taken a longer view and been less frightened about her short term demands for separation.

I hope I would have considered and reacted to her pain before reacting to my own.

I would have validated her feelings and concerns and tried to learn the source of her thinking about how she suddenly concluded that I had always been an abuser, a predator, an addict to everything and anything she disliked and a deviant. From there, I might have been able to respond more effectively.

I would have tried to learn more from others in her family about what was happening. Frankly, in doing this I likely would have heard that it was hopeless. That when she got into her defensive posture, nobody and no thought was going to be allowed in.

I had said to her that there was only one way she was going to be completely rid of my love. And I would have waited for that. She obviously never got that far, but she did threaten it three times.

So the short answer? Since the stress has nearly disabled me, I likely would have waited for her or it to kill me knowing it was coming. Not a great choice, eh?

Ash, I am so sorry to hear about your dog.

I really liked your reply. There are times when I really don't like my H (and times when he doesn't like me much either) but NOW I know that I won't feel that way forever.

I kept trying to make Lemonade out of a friendship. Unfortunately, that particular friend kept drinking all the lemonade and left just the lemons for me. Not good. And there was no end in sight.

IBF, thank you for your honest and open answer to my questions.

I have had two (2) T's tell me that "if I just bailed out of the relationship I was in at the time, the next one I got into would just start off where I'd left the one I'd bailed out of UNLESS I worked on ME."

My DBT T told me that I had "a gift, an opportunity to work on ME while already in a relationship."

Bailing quick and fast has sometimes been my "coping mechanism" if you will. (I DO have 2 ex-husbands, after all.)

Honestly, I think I've done a pendulum swing - bailing too fast and staying too long.

Ash, thanks for your post. It gives me insight.