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Bogit, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. I feel somewhat that you have invalidated how I feel. I explained fully and clearly how I feel. I put myself on the line - saying things that I feel uncomfortable with. The example I gave is how I feel - it is not catastrophizing. That's how I feel. I'm sorry if you see it otherwise.

I don't feel that every time I feel uncomfortable I have to "sit" with it. Sometimes you have to take action. This scenario is too difficult for me to deal with. No, I am not getting help soon enough. It's causing me too much distress and I can't deal with it. I specifically go to private doctors so I can get the care I choose to get. I choose not to go to teaching hospitals or clinics. I have good health insurance so I don't have to go to teaching insitutions. I am fortunate. I admit that. So it's my perogative who gives me care. It's my choice. And my choice is not to be studied by a 22-year-old student. I tried to "sit" with these feelings and I couldn't. Why should I HAVE to suffer? The world is not going to end if I leave group. Maybe I won't learn the big lessons of the world, but it's my choice. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but I don't understand why it's so important that I stay and have to deal with such a difficult situation. Even my T doesn't want me to stay if it's causing me so much grief. He told me that. He is my T and I chose him. I believe he is a good therapist. I'm not going to leave him just because of this. I'm sorry I'm such a disappointment to you. But I am trying to take care of myself and not cause me more misery. Believe me, I have stayed in situations that I didnt' like and worked with people I didn't like. I've done it for more years than you can count. I don't run away every time I encounter someone I don't like. But this is more than not liking someone. I explained how I felt. As I said, it is not catastrophizing. It is how I feel. I am trying to explain this and don't feel I'm getting my point across. Yes, my T said he would help me with Radical Acceptance. But what do I do in the meantime?

Sigh - I'm sorry. This is too much for me. I've tried to explain. Yes, the example I gave is how I feel. I will not apologize for my feelings. I am not catastrophizing - I am telling you how it makes me feel. It may not be reality - but it is how I feel. And I am not going to lie about my feelings. I didn't make this up out of thin air - I have thought about it long and hard. And this is how I feel. I have problems. I admit it. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be in therapy. So, I have told you something deep and personal, and have been told it's catastrophizing. Well, I don't agree. And even if it is, it is still how I feel. Bottom line. Does this make me a weak person? Someone with no backbone? Yes, BG should stick it out and stay in the group with someone she can't tolerate. Well, I can't do that. I tried for 7 months and I can't do it. I asked for support and got very little. And you know what? Even if I did practice DBT skills, why should I allow someone to have access to my personal feelings if I don't want her to? Do I have to accept everyone and allow them to have access to me that way? Why? This isn't a social club - it's my personal feelings on the line. Why do I have to allow her access to me? For what reason?

BG

How you feel is how you feel, guess I was trying to say that if you are comparing it to being studied in that way by 10 students then your feelings about this were possibly based on something much bigger than one student. If you dont feel it applies then you dont have to listen was just throwing it out there.

I didn't say you were a disappointment, if you are not disappointed with yourself then no need to hear that is there.

Your decision is yours to make BG!

You say no one will help you. You say you want help.

I have seen you say that your T has agreed to help you find ways to deal with it. What he has refused to do is agree with your response.

I have seen at least ten people here offer you suggestions about specific things you can do to deal with this. I personally have offered at least four. You have either rejected or ignored every specific suggestion made because they don't agree with what you want to do.

I have seen you write elsewhere about practicing a dozen DBT techniques for Distress Tolerance and Emotion Regulation to the extent that I know you know how to do these things if you choose to do them.

This looks like a pattern, BG. You've done this very thing several times in the past year. If fact, a year or more ago, over some similar bout of not liking someone or being angry about someone, after offering several suggestions, which you ignored completely, I wrote you a PM saying that I would offer no more advice until I saw you actually taking some advice that you didn't agree with and taking actions based on that advice. I should have kept my promise because while many have offered advice since then, you have not once accepted an idea that did not agree with your views about how to deal with the issue. You say "I can't". It means "I won't."

Your choice is to be angry, blame it on everyone but yourself, stamp your foot and say, "You cannot make me do anything different. This is what I want to do, dammit and this is what I'm going to do." Fine. Your choice

It seems that when you say you want help it means you want people to agree with your thinking. When you get into situations where more than a dozen people disagree with your thinking, IMO, it's time to reconsider your thinking.

You say you can't help your feeling. Everyone agrees. But you are not talking about dealing with your feeling. You're talking about dealing with your thoughts in response to your feelings. Your feeling is some form of discomfort. Perhaps some anger. Then you try to put a name on it and try to understand it and instead of taking responsibility for managing your feeling you blame it on H.

H has absolutely nothing to do with your feeling, BG. It's your choice of what thoughts to have and what to do about those thoughts in response to your feeling.

You've had a dozen or more positive suggestions about effective and constructive things you can do about your thoughts. You've ignored or rejected each one because it doesn't agree with yours. You want to be angry. Well, you are free to be angry. But if that's what you want, you should not be asking others for help with other ways to respond.

We are responsible for our own emotional pain, BG. The thoughts we have in response to distress will either be effective in limiting that distress or they will cause even more distress and suffering for ourselves.

The choice and responsibility is mine and yours.

The next time you find yourself not getting many responses to your posts about troubling situations like this, I recommend you look back at this thread to see how you've reacted to and what you've done with the many ideas and suggestions people have shared.

The choice and responsibility for your pain is yours, BG. Yours alone.

I see that I really should try to respond to these questions posted to me. I was tired last night and couldn't get to them. But you are trying to help and I honestly appreciate it. I am going to reply to these questions. I'll try to reply in a non-defensive manner and say how I really feel.



As I said before, I have done a lot of soul-searching about this. The "voices" tell me that I don't like being someone's guinea pig. I don't like being studied. Even if it's only for 5 or 10 minutes, I am not happy with it. Maybe it is an immature me, but these are deep feelings for me. What I can't understand is why its' thought I need to stay in a situation that makes me distinctly miserable and unhappy. As a free adult, why do I have to stay in this and put up with it? I ask this in all honesty. I discussed it with my H last night and asked his opinion. He said he doesn't see why I should stay if I clearly don't want to be around this girl.

I am not afraid of losing something. What bothers me is that I wont' get the benefit of the group. But my feelings are so strong that they override any benefit I would get from the group. And right now the benefits from the group are not enough for me to put up with being in such an uncomfortable situation. I'm not helping the group by being there. It's counter-productive. I try to stay but end up getting headaches and feel worse when I leave. I don't see what the payoff is here.



The only examples I have are that I don't like her being part of my treatment team. I did not agree to this. I was not consulted about it. It was sprung on us. We were not given the option of saying yes or no.

H has not said anything to me. She doesn't talk to me. And I don't talk to her. What she does is watch us in group. She studies us. And I am uncomfortable with that. As I've said before, I do not like being someone's guinea pig. It's my choice whether I allow her to study me or not. I am not being coerced into staying. If I don't like the rules, I have the option to leave. The rules are not going to change. So what she does is watch me and study me and then make notes in my chart about me. I also don't like her having access to my records. I doubt very much that she goes through my records and reads it. But I still am not comfortable with her having access to them at all. I did not give permission for her to be part of my treatment team and my wish is for her not to be. So the only way for her not to be is for me to leave.



In this instance it IS about me. It's not about anyone else. I don't think it's selfish to take care of my needs. I'm not asking my T to get rid of her because of me. I'm not asking anyone to do anything because of me. I am just trying to take care of myself. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'm not in group to take care of anyone else. They can take care of themselves.

No, I don't like her watching me and taking notes about me. I dont' care if she's only doing it for 5 minutes. The bottom line is I don't like it and want it to stop. That is my choice. I am not saying I'm important. I didn't set this up this way. My T did. As for being important, I don't want to be important. I don't want to be anything regarding her. As far as how much she notices me, she notices me enough to make whatever notes she makes and enters them into my records. And even if it's only one line of notes, I don't like it.

C'mon - how many people are in your group? How long does it last? If you have six people and group lasts only an hour, then she's probably only paying attention to you for ten minutes, tops. And that's if it's a full hour. Oh, wait - I forgot the group leader. She's probably watching HIM a lot more than she's watching you. After all, she's there to learn how to do what he does. so he gets a solid ten minutes, bringing you down to less than nine. Toss in a little daydreaming, a little planning tonight's dinner...We may be able to get your time down to five minutes or less.

Is five minutes worth throwing away a whole hour of therapy and training?

What you are saying about how many people are in the group, how long it lasts, who she's watching. Yes, you are correct. I'm not the one she's watching most of the time. But I am not comfortable with the few, maybe 1 or 2 minutes she does watch me. She still has to gain access to my records and enter whatever information she has into them. I dont' want her doing this at all. Yes, it's probably 5 minutes or less. But I've not given my permission and I choose not to have her do it at all. I know i'm not that important. That is understood. But I still have not chosen for her to do any of this - watching me for 5 minutes, entering stuff in the computer about me, discussing me with my T, even if it's only for 5 minutes. I did not give my permission.

I still have not seen where anyone has said to me - "This is specifically HOW you sit in group and feel comfortable with her doing these things." People have told me she only watches me for perhaps 5 minutes. They've said she's a student and needs to learn. They said I'm making too much otu of this. But I haven't seen any skills or tools to specifically be comfortable with the fact that she is part of my treatment team and has access to my records. What do I specifically do to be comfortable with this? And I still have not seen WHY I should stay in the first place when I am so miserable. I do not want to stay in group to make her happy. That is not my goal. My only goal would be to stay to learn what my T teaches us. But my unhappiness overrides this. I am not blaming anyone about my feelings here. I am accepting full responsibility for how I feel. H did not cause this to happen. This is a result of my feelings about her being on my treatment team and the fact that I don't accept her as part of it. I am trying to learn how to overcome these feelings but so far have not been able to. DBT skills can help me to tolerate her, sure. But I don't understand how they will change my mind that I don't like being someone's guinea pig. Which skills will do that? How can I wake up in the morning and say gee, I like Heather and am glad she's watching me adn making notes about me. How will I change my feelings 180 degrees? And I'm still not convinced why I need to do that in the first place. I have freedom of choice. Do we always have to stay in situations we aren't happy with? What if I didn't have BPD and found myself in a situation that made me sick? Would I continue to stay and be miserable? What payoff is that?



I don't think i'm important. But I was told she's watching me and studying me. That's what my T told me. So obviously she IS doing these things. It's not a question of me being important. The issue is that she IS doing these things and they make me uncomfortable. I don't see why I need to allow this to happen when clearly it makes me miserable. I know I'm not that interesting. But she's still watching me, whether I like it or not. And I don't like it. So there's 6 of us in the group. Break it down into an hour. That means she may be watching me for 10 minutes. To me, that's 10 minutes too long. Okay, so she's thinking about what she's going to have for dinner. Let's cut it down to 7 minutes. It's still too long. See, I dont' want her thinking of me at all. Not even for 2 minutes. This was not my choice, I didn't ask for it, and I dont' like it. I know i'm not that interesting or important. I dont' want to be interesting or important at all. I don't want to be on her radar at all, not even for 2 minutes.

I am not in the least blaming anything on H. She is just doing what my T has told her to do. I don't blame her for that at all. I dont' see where I'm blaming her. I take full responsibility for my feelings. I don't blame her for my feelings. I have said over and over that this is based on the fact that I don't like being anyone's guinea pig. I accept this is how I feel. So what can I do to stop being uncomfortable with feeling like someone's guiniea pig? I have not seen any responses to help me stop those feelings and thoughts. I am not angry at anyone here or blaming anyone here.

People have told me a lot of things. I agree with them. But I still can't get over the fact that I don't like being studied or watched. I have not seen anything that would compel me to agree to being studied or watched. Yes, it's part of her curriculum. Yes, she is learning. But if I'm not happy with being watched or studied by her, why do I have to put up with it? What is the payoff for me? What do I get out of it?

I dont' particularly expect people to agree with me. But why do I have to be invalidated. This is a big deal to me. I gave a scenario as to how this makes me feel. I was told I'm catastrophizing. I don't feel I am. I just tried to lay out exactly how this situation makes me feel. I feel vulnerable, I feel like I'm spread out there on the table. I feel I don't have control. I have not seen how to overcome this or why I need to. I am trying to take responsibility for my feelings, but I hit a brick wall every time I try. So far, i have not been given any compelling evidence why staying would be in my best interest. I can learn what I need to in my private sessions. I get along with all the women in my group. And again, this is not learning to get along with H. I can get along with her if I want to. This is more about feeling exposed and watched. I don't have much experience with this and can't seem to work out my feelings around it. My T hasn't helped me much here. He would rather I leave the group than make myself sick. I fought his suggestion. I tried to stay. But it's not working.

IBF, I will work on some DBT skills surrounding this. I am still leaving the group, but I will still work on the skills. I just haven't had time these past few days. I had things to do with my H that kept me away from it this weekend. But tomorrow I can begin. I'll write down lessons and try to work on it. I am not discounting your suggestions. I welcome them. I appreciate the help you try to give me. But I need to get away from the group for a while because if I stay I can't function as well as I should. My distress level is too high and it's making me sick. Actually, it'll be easier to work on the DBT if I get out of group because my mind will be clearer. I wont' be distracted.

Again, I am not angry at anyone here. I apologize if it came across that way. I just wanted to be heard, to be understood. I still don't know if I have been heard, if people understnad how I feel, but I've tried my hardest to explain how I feel and why I feel the way I do. I don't like being exposed to this stranger and laid out naked in front of her. Sorry if that sounds extreme, but it's the way it makes me feel. It took me a long time to realize this, and that it's not about not liking her. So I took a chance and exposed myself here, hoping you all would understand. I will work on the DBT skills and not discount your suggestions. I can start working on it this morning.

Minx wrote this in another post. But it's how I feel exaclty. Here, the subject is H. But what really is bothering me are the feelings underneath. How I feel about being watched and studied. It's not about H per se. I need to address how I feel about being someone's guinea pig. I can get along with H if I want to. But it's what she represents that bothers me. Does this make sense now? I hope so!

I don't think anyone here thinks you should have to stay. The question is, should you choose to stay, or choose to leave. Choosing to stay is not the same as having to stay.

I'm not saying you should make that choice. I'm just pointing out that it can be a true choice, just like leaving the group is.

Ellen, I apologize, but can you explain what you mean here? Does this mean that my leaving the group is a true choice? I just don't understand. Thanks!!!!

I dont understand your question BG

Why wouldnt it be? When dont any of us not have a choice?

CHAIN ANALYSIS OF PROBLEM BEHAVIOR

1. Describe the specific PROBLEM BEHAVIOR (flashback, cutting, disassociation, hiding, closeting, panic attack, etc.)

Being uncomfortable with student intern in Group.

A. Be very specific and detailed. No vague terms.

We have a student intern in my BPD group. I am uncomfortable with her there. At first I thought it was because I didn't like her. Then I did a lot of thinking and realized it was because I don't like her watching me and studhing me.

B. Identify exactly what you did, said, thought or felt (if feelings are the targeted problem behavior).

I told my T I don't like her there. At first I told him I didn't like her and didn't feel she was competent. Later on I realized it was more about feeling uncomfortable with the fact that she watches us and makes notes about us.

C. Describe the intensity of the behavior and other characteristics of the behavior that are important.

My feelings were pretty intense. My T told me I was paranoid and obsessing about this. I was angry and felt exposed.

D. Describe the problem behavior in enough detail that an actor in a play or movie could recreate the behavior exactly.

I was obsessing last week about this. I could not get it out of my mind. I didn't know what to do or how to handle the situaiton. I spoke to my T about it, he told me to speak to other members of the group, I called him a few times on the phone.

2. Describe the specific PRECIPITATING EVENT that started the whole chain of behavior.

A. Start with the environmental event that started the chain. Always start with some event in your environment, even if it doesn’t seem to you that the environmental event “caused” the problem behavior. Possible questions to get at this are:

a. What exact event precipitated the start of the chain reaction?

The event started when a new student intern entered our BPD group.

b. When did the sequence of events that led to the problem behavior
begin? When did the problem start?

The problem began a few weeks after she joined the group.

c. What was going on the moment the problem started?

I felt that she was intruding on the group. Some other members felt the same way. I was uncomfortable with her being there. I felt she wasn't bright. Our T would ask her questions sometimes and she never got the answers correct. Later on I learned that she watches us and studies us, and has access to our records. She has to enter what she writes about us into our records.

d. What were you doing, thinking, feeling, imagining at that time?

I was feeling exposed. I didn't like knowing she has access to my personal records. I felt like a guinea pig, with her watching me and studyhing me. My T told me she's part of my treatment team, which I do not like at all. I do not accept that.

e. Why did the problem behavior happen on that days instead of the day before?

The problem happened on the days we had group.



3. Describe in general VULNERABILITY FACTORS happening before the precipitating event. What factors or events made you more vulnerable to a problematic chain? Areas to examine are:

A. Physical illness; unbalanced eating or sleeping; injury

I am not physically ill right now. I am eating and sleeping well. I've had foot surgery but that is not a factor in how I feel about this situation.

B. Use of drugs or alcohol; misuse of prescription drugs

N/A

C. Stressful events in the environment (either positive or negative)

The only stressful event is me being in the group with her.

D. Intense emotions, such as sadness, anger, fear, loneliness

My intense emotion is the feeling that I don't like being someone's guinea pig. I know students have to learn, but I am not comfortable with her learning on me. I never gave permission for her to be on my treatment team. My T said she's part of my treatment team, and I dont' approve. He said my choice is to accept it or leave the group. So I choose to leave the group. I am angry. I fel exposed every time I am expected to speak in front of her.

E. Previous behaviors of your own that you found stressful

I do not like being studied by student interns. Usually a doctor will ask my permission before he allows a student in the room. We were not given that opportunity this time. My T told us she was coming in, but did not ask our permission. I dealt with it, but when I found out she had access to my records and studies us and writes about us, it was too much for me. I do not give my permission for that.



4. Describe in excruciating detail THE CHAIN OF EVENTS that led up to the problem behavior.

A. What next? Imagine that your problem behavior is chained to the precipitating event in the environment. How long is the chain? Where does it go? What are the links? Write out all links in the chain of events, no matter how small. Be very specific, as if you are writing a script for a play.

a. What exact thought (or belief), feeling, or action followed the precipitating event? What thought, feeling, or action followed that? What next?

My thought was that I don't like being a guinea pig. I did not give my permission. I feel exposed. I am uncomfortable discussing personal things in front of her. I feel as if she can have access to my personal records. My T said she is part of my treatment team. I don't want her having a say in anything to do with my treatment.

b. Look at each link in the chain after you write it. Was there another thought feeling, or action that could have occurred? Could someone else have thought, felt, or acted differently at that point? If so, explain how that specific thought, feeling, or action came to be.
For each link in the chain, as if there is a smaller link I could describe.

Someone else might have thought that this is the way things are. They might have accepted it. I know there are members in my group who do accept it. They don't feel exposed or violated by her. But I do. They might realize she is a student and needs to learn somewhere. They might have compassion for her.

B. The links can be thoughts, emotions, sensations and behaviors.



5. What are the CONSEQUENCES of this behavior? Be specific.

A. How did other people react immediately and later?

My T doesn't understand why I continue to stay in the group if I feel the way I do. He told me to call some of the members of the group and discuss it with them. They don't have a problem with H. Only one other member has a problem with her. But she pretends she isn't there. She tunes her out and ignores her. One of the other members is leaving because she got a job. So that would be 2 people leaving. The other member of the group said that if we both leave, then she will leave to. That is her decision to make. I told her not to make that decision based on my actions. She said it's her decision alone. So far my T does not know I am leaving.

B. How did you feel immediately following the behavior? Later?
What effect did the behavior have on you and your environment?

When I decided to leave the group, at first I was depressed. I felt bad that I won't benefit from my T's knowledge and expertise. But then later I felt relief. I felt like a weight had been lifted from my shoulders.



6. Describe in detail different SOLUTIONS to the problem.

A. Go back to the chain of your behaviors following the prompting event. Circle each point or link indicating that if you had done something different, you would have avoided the problem behavior.

If I had accepted H and not cared whether she had access to my records, this wouldn't have happened. If I didn't care that she was watching me and studying me, this wouldn't have happened. If I didn't care that she was part of my treatment team, this wouldn't have hapened.

B. What could you have done differently at each link in the chain of events to avoid the problem behavior? What coping behaviors or skillful behaviors could you have used?

I didn't have to obsess so much about it. I could have tried to keep my emotions out of it and looked at it more pragmatically. Been a little more practical about it. Not dwelled on it so much.



7. Describe in detail the PREVENTION STRATEGY for how you could have kept the chain from starting by reducing your vulnerability to the chain.

I did not have to jump to conclusions. I did ask my T each step of the way about what she was doing and why. But each time he told me something, it just added to my distress. So by leaving the group, I am lessening my vulnerability to the stress this causes me.


8. Describe what you are going to do to REPAIR important or significant consequences of the problem behavior.

I am going to discuss it with my T. I am going to explain exactly how I reached my decision to leave the group. I would like to discuss with him my fears about being vulnerable about being involved with student interns. He's not 100% crazy about discussing this with me so we'll have to see what happens. I am going to contact each member of the group so they will know I am not abandoning them. They have become my friends and I don't want them to think I'm leaving them in the lurch. I want them to know that my decision to leave has nothing to do with them directly, that I still care about them, but that I have to take care of msyelf.

Smilin, Ellen wrote that leaving the group should be a true choice. I guess I didn't understand what she meant by a "true" choice. Thanks!

What would that mean to you?

What would you think she is trying to say?

True is pretty easily defined, here it is as taken from Websters: (the other forms of true did not apply, but if necessary, I will gladly post)


3 a: properly so called <true love> <the true faith> <the true stomach of ruminant mammals>

4: legitimate, rightful <our true and lawful king>

7: logically necessary

I don't see what there is to explain. Honestly. You choose to leave the group. You could have choosen to stay. Which is different than having to stay. Seems to me what I said is pretty straight forward.

Do you feel that leaving the group wasn't really a free choice you made?

Taken directly from EllenKMR's earlier post to you:

Bolded by me to highlight what I feel is relevant to current discussion/question I have:

Sorry-

Cross-posted with Ellen, didnt see her on the board.

Think she took care of this, but was still trying to understand what BG wasn't understanding about ' true choice' - is there such a thing as a false choice?

Thanks Smilin. I think that's what got me confused. What a "true" choice is opposed to a false choice. I never thought of it as that. To me, a choice is a choice. I guess we're getting too much into semantics here.

Anyway, when I first decided to leave I felt bad because I really like the women in the group and I like hearing what my T has to say. But then I felt as if a weight had been lifted off my shoulders and I felt lighter.

No, I feel this is my choice alone. No one coerced me to leave. My T didn't understand why I was staying, given my distress level. But I told him I was going to stay and try to work things out. But then it became apparent to me that I couldn't work it out. He didnt' try to coerce me one way or the other. He left the choice up to me. So finally I came to my decision. As I said, at first I felt bad because I truly didn't want to leave. But things being as they are, and they're not going to change, I felt I couldn't deal with things that way. I tried, but it didn't work out. I was tired of being upset and felt I would make myself sick if I stayed. Thus my choice to leave.

This is not a black-and-white issue. If I stay, yes, I would get a lot out of the group. I would learn things from my T. This may be the wrong choice, I don't know. It seems like I'm making the right choice for me right now. But you know, it's not life-or-death. It's only a group. And later on, if I change my mind, I can always go back. Nothing is written in stone. Meanwhile I am going to try to explore how I feel and why she brings out these feelings in me. I hope my T will work on it with me. I feel more clear-headed about it now. So maybe I can focus on those issues and work on them without the upsetedness I felt these past few weeks.

Thanks for understanding!!!!

I'm having trouble doing all the reading necessary to catch up with this thread, but I wanted to address one point:

I believe that the quest to feel good about Heather is based on a fallacy.

There may indeed be nothing at all that helps you feel good about the situation.
This is an unrealistic expectation.

Here is a suggestion for a course of action.

Wake up in the morning and self-validate yourself. Say to yourself, "I have group tonight. Heather will be there. I feel uncomfortable. I am scared and I don't feel like I'm in control."
Sit with the feelings. Accept them. Observe them nonjudgementally.
Use simple objective statements. Do not ramp up your own feelings by exaggerating what Heather's doing or assuming things about her. You have the choice to accept your feelings objectively or amplify them.
And then choose opposite action. Say, "There is no actual threat to my life in that room. I'm going to accept and live with my discomfort and I'm going to do my best in group anyway because the benefits of the group to my life are worth it."
This is practice for getting through life. Being outside the house means invariably having to deal with discomfort and people who do uncomfortable things. The group is a way to practice this.

Ithink this question of Ellens is really valid and at the crux of things:


How do you answer this, BG?

Is it a free choice?

Was this really what all the uncomfortable feelings were about? Now that you've made a choice, are the uncomfortable feelings still there?

Not quite. No should. And I was taking for granted that it was a choice (or true choice) and saying staying could be that same sort of choice, rather than a "stuck with". True choice as oppose to choose what one thinks one "should" do or "has to do" or what one thinks is the only choice. Actively making a choice rather than passively accepting.

Yes, I do understand now Ellen. I don't feel I'm stuck with my choice. I feel I did have a free choice. The decision was mine alone to make. I feel I made the best choice I could for how I am feeling right now. I had such a good day today and was not obsessing about group or anything to do with group. I don't feel depressed or sad or anything. So it seems like I made the right decision. I feel lighter! Whatever uncomfortable feelings I may have had are gone now.

I don't remember if I wrote this or not, but last night I asked my H if he thought I was running away from the situation. He said no, that ultimately it's up to me what I decide to do. He didnt' see anything wrong with me leaving the group. I did tell him exactly how I felt and why I was leaving, so it's not like I left anything out. I had no idea what his response would be. I just wanted his thoughts on it.

What I do want to work on ultimately is why I don't like the idea of being watched by a student, any student. I'd like to discuss it with my T. It's an interesting topic and something I'd like to know. Perhaps it will help me in the future. I dont' think I'd have been able to discuss it if I was still going to group. That whole situation was too volatile for me. Now that I've made my decision and calmed down, I can discuss it with him in a more rational manner.

Ann, thank you for your suggestions! If I was going to stay in the group I most certainly would have used your suggestions. I know many of you think I should stay in the group and live with the discomfort. And believe me, I have lived through many, many uncomfortable situations in my life. I have not run from them. But this one I don't want to. I am choosing to leave. I will still explore the reasons I'm leaving, but I won't have the stress of having to deal with the situation any more. For me, right now, it's the best I can do.

The one thing I did want to add is that all doctors study their patients. In any doctor/patient situation, you will be watched and studied. What is the difference between a student/newcomer doing it and your t doing it? Does it have something to do with a lack of trust in her, because she is a student? I noticed that you mentioned you thought she was incompetent, and possibly you didn't trust her enough for her to be present in the group sessions.

Calista, I can't talk about it in group because H is always there. I don't want her knowing anything about me. She is there all the time. So how could I discuss it with them? I would have been very happy to discuss it in group if she wasn't there. I don't feel safe with her there.

My T did tell us he was bringing her into the group. He did not ask our permission - he just told us she was coming in. So even though we did discuss it, it ultimately didn't matter what we thought. He was going to bring her in no matter what we thought. So we actually had no say in the matter.

This is not a DBT group. It's a regular group therapy group. We study a little DBT but not every week.

Calista, you said you cannot understand my intense feelings. But you did talk about the experience you had with the student at your GYN appointment. You said you were horrified. Well, that is how I feel every week with H there. I feel exposed with her there. I did not give anyone my permission to have her there.

I am over being mad. I'm not mad anymore. I just want some peace of mind. I don't like obsessing that she is watching me and studying me. And the only way I can achieve that is by leaving.

Aqualite, I do know that doctors study their patients. I gave my T permission to do that when I hired him. But I did not hire H, therefore she does not have my permission. I do not trust her, I do feel she is incompetent, I do not feel safe with her, and I do not want her having access to my records. I did not hire her. If she's part of the package in the group, then I choose not to have her in my package and I'm leaving. My T made it very clear that H is staying in the group, no matter what. So my choice is to leave.

I will be very happy to discuss with my T in private why this bothers me so much. I would have been very happy to discuss it in group if H wasn't there. But she is, so I can't discuss it there. If I really wanted to, I could call my friends from the group and get together a meeting at Starbucks to discuss this with them. I don't know if I would actually do that, but it's something I could potentially do. Then we could have a discussion about it. Only my T wouldn't be there to moderate. But as I said, I will not discuss it in front of H.

Yes, Calista. That is what I have been saying all along. That my feelings are intense and I need to discuss them with my T. I am hoping he'll want to do that.

The reason I want to let the others know why I'm leaving is because we have all become friends. I'm afraid they'll think I'm abandoning them. I dont' want to do that to them. I am telling them the truth. They can take it however they want. But I don't want my T telling them one thing about why I'm leaving and it not being the truth. I know he won't say in front of the group that i'm leaving because I can't deal with H. I don't expect him to. But I want them to know the truth so they will know where I'm coming from. I'm not asking them to leave, not asking them to do anything - just that they know the truth. I do not intend to stir up drama. I don't need or want that.

I feel bad about leaving but I need to explore the reasons. I hope to be able to do that. I didn't choose for this situation to arise. My T didnt' give any of us a choice. I didn't know I would feel this bad. But I do and I have to deal with it. So I'm going to do the best I can. I tried to call my T again today to tell him but he hasn't called me back. I don't know if he will. I may just have to wait until I see him tomorrow.

Calista stated that it seems this is something deeper. Could it be that this:



Is actually your issue? And that because you weren't given a choice you dug your heels in and are revolting?

And is perhaps quitting group a way to protest your T's decision to not stand by you?

Just more things that come up for me as I see you move along on this. Oh, as well, as trying to understand what occured that within a visit or two you have been able to discern that this student is incompetent?

dunno I am just finding more questions the more this progresses...