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So, either you believe your T doesn't know the truth or you believe your T does know the truth (from your viewpoint) and will choose to tell them a lie (from your viewpoint).

Which is it? Why would your T tell them something that isn't true? Will you share this statement with your T next time you see him? If not, why not?



Hasn't your T already told you that he thinks this kind of conversation with group members is inappropriate? Why do they need to know this? What difference could it make to their recovery work? If your only motive is that they know your opinion or viewpiont, don't they already know from your prior private discussions. What would be the consequences of choosing to not tell them anything? How could that hurt you or them?

BG,

I've done some thinking on your issue, about what I would think if I were in your shoes. Upon her introduction into the group, I am sure your t knew it would cause upset, but he took the students/interns on anyways. Students are not supposed to be competent in their professions. They are in a learning stage. They are allowed to offer ideas in order to receive feedback, so they can learn. They are not in any way in control of your treatment, BG. So that is a false belief.

Accept that she is not a competent therapist (in your mind), but a student who may well BE a competent therapist for others one day, and that you will allow her to learn by attending your group sessions.

And then I would be past your problem.....

I simply don't see how her presence at your group sessions will do you any harm whatsoever, given that she has the student credentials. (And that's assuming that your t has the right credentials and can be trusted initially).

I believe my T will just say I'm not coming back and not give a reason. I guess he won't actually lie. I wouldn't expect him to tell the truth, given that H will be in the room. But I think my friends will question this in their own minds and wonder what is really going on. I am only going to call one of them. One already knows what's going on, and the other one is the woman who is not coming back because of her job. So there's really only one other woman I would talk to. And I do want her to know the truth. I've been there too long and it would seem odd that out of the blue I'm leaving. This has nothing to do with recovery work. It has to do with being friends with someone. I would tell them why I was leaving whatever the reason was.

My T did not tell me not to call them. As of now, he still doesn't know I'm leaving. He never said anything was inappropriate. I plan on telling him I'm going to call this other woman. I doubt he would stop me, but of course I don't know for sure what he'll do until tomorrow when I tell him I'm leaving the group.

I know she is a student. My assessment of her is of how she behaves in the group. She is inarticulate, can't assemble her thoughts properly and doesn't get the material right. At least that's what we see on a fairly weekly basis. So since this person is supposed to be in charge of assessing my mental state during the group meeting, I dont' trust her judgment. I did learn that my T checks her work, so that's better.

I know what you all are saying is correct. I know she won't "hurt" me. But I still don't like being her guinea pig. That's the issue I need to deal with. But the stress I feel when I know she's in the group isn't healthy for me. My T even told me that. And I decided that since I'm 57 years old and not a child anymore, I have the choice to leave or stay. Whatever benefits I would get from being in the group are washed away by my feelings about her "watching" me. I will address those issues. But not in front of her. I doubt very much that my T will pressure me to stay. He'd rather I leave then have all this anguish. At least that's the impression he gave me.

I know we all don't see eye-to-eye on this issue, but I appreciate the dialogue more than you can imagine! Even though I am digging my heels in, I hear everything that you all say and understand it. It's helping me even if it doesn't seem that way. I am not being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate. In my mind, I am doing what is best for me, for my protection. I do plan on discussing it with my T and trying to get him to help me figure things out. But please do not think I dont' appreciate the dialogue, because I really do. Thank you!

So you believe that your T has assigned the student to "be in charge" of assessing your mental state? You might want to ask him about that if you actually believe it.

IBF, he told me last week that she has to sit in group and write down things about us - what moods we're in, how we behave, how we react, and put it into our records. Yes, he did tell me that.

So the student is to observe and describe behaviors and statements she sees and hears from group participants. And to make an estimate about their "moods". My understanding of "mental state" is a bit different, but not so much to make it worth quibbling about.

What do you think would happen if she wrote something into a file that T did not agree with? If what he saw and heard was different than what she said she saw and heard? What would he do about the notes she made in the record? What would he do to help her understand what he saw compared to what she saw?

BG, Being a student is hard work. There is a lot of incoming information. Students are supposed to be confused. Most young students I know aren't able to do what you expect of her. On top of suddenly being adults and responsible for themselves, they have all of this learning to do, not to mention a lot of them have to work to pay the bills. I think you're being a bit unfair to think an 18 year old student thrown into a room with a bunch of people with bpd should suddenly be as articulate and poised as a 57 year old woman, or a well-trained, experienced therapist. They're still kids! Of course your t checks her work, I'm sure if there was any problems he would step in to straighten out the situation. You are not being victimized in any way, shape, or form. And besides, even if she did assess your mental state a bit incorrectly (which has obviously happened a billion different times to a billion different people in the past), then would it really make any difference? You already know you have bpd. Do you think this possibly could be linked to your past problem of feeling helpless because you didn't know what your condition was? There's something about her being there that is making you feel victimized, but in reality, you are not.

I have to admit, I feel the same way about the mental health system in general. I do not trust or feel comfortable with therapists, but at the same time, I do know it is me and not them in a lot of situations. If they misdiagnose me or can't help me, most of that has to do with me and the way I felt. That feeling of helplessness and wanting to be rescued was driving me, and when they didn't rescue me in the way I needed to be rescued, I blamed it on them.

Also, BG, I don't know about this situation, but I was an intern once. I had to do a lot of assessing and describing. Do you know where those notes are that you describe her taking? They went in a shredder. Me, my professor, and the employer were the only ones who ever saw them. I doubt they are going into your file, BG, and even if they are (which I said I highly doubt), whoever reads them will realize that a young student wrote them.

You are taking this so seriously. For some reason, this young student has become your central focus in your group so much so that you are willing to give it up.

What she writes DOES go into my record. Yes, my T has ultimate control over what is put in, but she does enter what she writes into my record.

I know I am overly concerned with this. That's why I want to discuss it with my T - why it bothers me so much. It's not so much about HER anymore but about the way I feel and am reacting. So my main goal at this point is to discuss with him why I am feeling the way I do and what has triggered it. I'm hoping we can talk about it today at my appointment.

I do not say that everything I am feeling is "rational" or "normal." But obviously something is bothering me and I need to talk about it. That's why I'm in therapy.

I know she is a student but honestly that's not my problem. I don't really care what she's going through with her schoolwork. She has to deal with that herself. For me, I have to deal with my reactions and feelings. I have to take care of myself, not her. So I will do what I have to do to uncover why I'm feeling this way. That's my main goal right now.

I appreciate all of your insights because they showed me what is really going on here. And it's taken me a few weeks to see that this is not really about her, but about me and how I am reacting. And what I can do about it.

I have to go now - I have a therapy appointment today. I'll let you know how it went and if my T and I discussed this issue and what occurred. Thank you!!!!! :halo

I'm glad that you recognize it's about you, not about H, and that your reactions have been irrational. Not totally irrational, but unusual for the circumstances. What if you want to go back to the group after June, when H. leaves? Suppose another student intern enters the group? You would have the same problem, wouldn't you? So, I think it's important to try to discover why you feel so strongly about the situation. I hope your session today is productive.

Thanks Wondering. Well, I saw my T today and told him I was leaving. He was actually pleased. He feels that I've spent too much time obsessing about this and it's not healthy for me physically or mentally. He feels that whatever benefit I might gain from going to the group is not worth the anguish I've put myself through. He said I used Wise Mind to arrive at my decision. He also said we can discuss DBT is personal sessions.

He asked me if I was going to contact any of the group members. I told him I had already told one woman and that I'm going to call another. He said that was fine. He did tell me also that the group is going to change soon. He is going to stop being the leader and the other therapist in the practice will take over. This will happen in May. I don't know if I'll go to that one. I'll have to see.

I asked him if he thought I was "running away" from the situation. He said no. He said if another group member told me something about myself and I didn't like what they said, and then decided not to come back, then that would be running away. But he said in this instance I am not running away.

The whole discussion was about me. H never entered into the discussion. So I feel I did good by focusing solely on myself. We didn't have time to delve into the "why's" of how I feel about being a guinea pig or anything like that. But I'm sure in the future we will talk about it.

He's happy that I finally made a decision. He said I had been obsessing about it and he felt that I needed to make a decision one way or the other - to stop the constant obsessive discussion. He told me he was proud of me and said I should say "thank you" to him for saying that to me. :biggrin

So that's how most of my session went today. I still feel like a weight has been lifted off my shoulders and glad I made a decision. I know you all were trying to get me to see reality - and I agree with you on most of what you said. I'm so glad I could talk about it here. Thank you!

I do think you did well.

And, yeah, needing to make a decision can cause or contribute to obsessive thinking.

Thanks Ellen. It's weird. I was telling him today that when I was younger - like in my 20's and 30's - I never had a problem making decisions. I even used to be disdainful of people who couldn't make decisions! I used to say I'd rather make a wrong decision than no decision at all.

But in the past few years I've changed. I have major trouble making decisions. I don't know if it's from all the times I've been depressed or the medication, maybe my brain changed, but I have big-time trouble making decisions. I waver back and forth, as it they're all a life-and-death situation. It's not good.

There's a balance, I think. Not being too rash in decision making, taking time to think, to consider. But being able to make the decision.

Yes, you're right. I think when you're depressed it slows down your decision-making process. Maybe that has something to do with it for me. I get paralyzed, not knowing if I'm making the right decision. So I do nothing. I have to stop that pattern.

I think I'm coming from a different perspective.... putting myself in her shoes as only one piece in the puzzle... not all. But I think it's important to see all perspectives, to get a good clear view of the picture, the situation that is taking place, in order to make the right decision. It wasn't about putting her before you, but about putting oneself in other people's shoes so possibly not to judge them quite as harshly.

My question is this: Did your t ASK you if it was ok if he joined the group, or did he TELL you she was joining? Because this is definitely important in the assessment of things.

Also, BG, since you make it so clear you don't care about her, then why should she care about you? I'm just wondering....

My T TOLD us she was joining. We had absolutely no say in the matter.

To tell you the truth, I don't really care about her in this situation. She'll have to fend for herself. I never said anything bad to her face, I never was nasty to her. I honestly don't care about her issues - they're not my problem. I have to take care of myself. And that's what I did. If she wants to be a T she'll have to learn how to deal with various situations. I'm not her babysitter. I understand all the perspectives, but I'm still taking care of myself first.

Aqua, I don't expect her to care about me. I don't want her to have anything to do with me. I never said I wanted her to care about me.

Well, I agree with the fact that you need to care for yourself, BG. But not caring about others will keep us in a state of bpd'ness. Just because she perhaps doesn't know what's right for you or for the group doesn't suddenly make her the evil witch who infiltrated lol. She's a person with feelings too. I think you're black-hatting her, without taking into account her age and experience. Those things are important when making assessments. At the same time, I do understand that you have higher expectations than what she can offer you in the group. It's ok to not want her there because she doesn't meet your expectations, maybe your t is a bit more realistic concerning students, lol. All the students I know are kids. It's pretty much a given to me that most will not be able to do what you described.

My bf thinks:

If he told you she was joining, without asking your permission, then that to me would be a breach of my boundaries. He allowed her to enter without asking permission from the group members, and she would be considered an outsider. I would then question whether my t actually cared about the group or not, since ultimately, the decision to do the wrong thing laid solely upon his shoulders.

Two completely different ideas.... taken from two people from different states and environments. Me, I think I would learn to deal with it (which I think is what I learned, I'm not as pro-active, but would like to be), but I really haven't DONE it, so I can't be sure. When I'm actually THERE, it seems like I have much lower tolerance for things, and higher expectations than it seems. My bf has the above ideas, being from the Bay Area I think made a big difference. I like his ideas.... very accountable.

BG, If she was a member of your group, I think she probably needs to care about the group, and you need to care about the group. Am I wrong? So if you don't care about her, then that kindof puts a big glitch in the dynamic, eh?

My point in the first place was: You said you went on for 7 months this way, and then decided it was inappropriate, based on feelings you had. (Correct me if I'm wrong). I was trying to send the message that: If someone told me a student was monitoring the group, my expectations would not be where yours are. I would know initially she would be inexperienced and young. So I don't think that would be any big revelation. Perhaps because you don't put yourself in other people's shoes enough or give them a chance or notice their actions or communications (which it appears you are doing here), that you didn't know what to expect. That's my point.

Well, the truthis that I became more and more uncomfortable with her being there as time went on. And when I learned that she was "watching and assessing" us, it got worse for me. I don't care if she cares about the group. I care about the group - I care very much for the people in it. I consider her an outsider, no matter what anyone else says. That is my opinion. I'm not in the group anymore. I don't have to deal with her being there or not.

My T cares very much for the group and the women in it. He is a teacher and supervising students is part of his duties. Maybe his superior told him he needs to have a student intern in the group. I don't know. It doesn't change things anyway. If everyone was that upset with a student coming in, they would have picked up and left. But we didn't. We all gave it a chance. And I was the only one who couldn't handle it.

The bottom line is that I dont' care about her one way or another. She is a student, she's there to learn - that's fine. I just dont' want her learning about me. You can call it black-hatting if you like. It's not going to change how I feel. I spent too many years as a child having to be in situations that I didn't like. I vowed that when I was an adult I would hopefully be able to pick and choose what situations I wanted to be in. And this is one of those.

I am not a mean person. I just don't care about her one way or the other. Now that I'm out of the group she's out of the picture in my life, which is what I wanted. Now I can relax. Life will go on.

I don't feel as if this is a two-way communication. I think I am making points and you are just continuing to state your feelings and thoughts without addressing my points or what you think of the thoughts I have.

I suppose then what evidence do you have that your t cares about the group? He put an intern in the group without asking your permission and he isn't even there. Am I correct? So where's the evidence?

Makes sense that you gave it a chance and then you didn't feel comfortable. It matters that she cares about the group for the dynamic of the group itself. lol. Well, if you consider her an outsider, then sure, that would present a problem, and it lies on your t's shoulders for making what is an uncaring decision regarding the group. It's against the law to do what he did in Ca. Which being from the South myself and never having attended a group session, I really didn't know. But it comes down to your expectations and what you think rises to your expectations and what doesn't. At this point, after taking in the information I have regarding group therapy and Ca. law, I would not want him to be my t any longer.

From the way you are answering, BG, it sounds more like what your t said, that you don't really care about making a good, sound decision, but you care about the fact that this student made you feel threatened and you care about your relationship with your t above all else. I'm beginning to wonder if it is healthy, considering you won't even think for a moment that your t could be at fault for making an unsound decision in your treatment.