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thanks to smiling , and her thread, i finally have figured out my issue.

why did it bother me so to be told to pretend disrespect doesnt exist? why does injustice bug me so bad? why can i not "accept how life is"? it invalidates i am a person with my own rights.

and i tried so hard to do it. but the more i did, the worse i felt. the angrier i got. why should i betray my own beliefs? why should i be the one to play like its ok?

i just cant. this may be the reason i do end up having to leave the board for good. i have a basic philosophical difference with this belief.

i have no problem with rules. i have no problem with being called on the carpet (or we nascar fans say--the big red truck) when i screw up. my problem is when others arent made to follow the same rules. that is a problem--things said in secret-- it opens a door for assuming, speculation, and nothing any good. it sets no example for the board or people when things are behind closed doors. when a group isnt shown we all play by the same rules. (try it with a room of 2nd graders...they will grow up never learning any rules). kids have this basic fairness in them, i love it.

civilization is based on respect. respect must be demanded by all. if not, there will be no healing, no growing. and it must not be a area for speculation. rules are there to keep things in place. to not get out of hand. to behave in proper ways. when everyone is respected, there is no need for anger and riots and prisons.

ignoring someone who breaks these rules is not the answer. no, we cant change them in their core. but pretending just isnt my belief. everyone should have to abide by the same guidelines.

as i said in the other thread, re ibf's quote, i dream. i hope. i want things better everywhere. i will not accept this is how it is and then whine when the world doesnt change. i simply am not a ignorer. ignore the starving kids? ignore animal abuse? human rights? you may say how is this connected? oh, but it is. human rights begin at the core. at each part of our lives. allowing someone to abuse another (as smiling was saying) erodes our part of this world, and in turn erodes bigger parts. pretending a bully isnt being one will only hurt the world, not fix it. it is no solution to tell kids to walk off from someone calling them names. i could hear her anger and hurt in her words. her feeling of being invalidated as a person.

it disrespects the person bullying. it prevents them from learning to change and that their actions arent acceptable.

in the book i have on owning our own behavior, there is a entire chapter on how this is not a license to behave how we please and say hey, its how they decide to take it! it is not a license to act like a asshole.

i feel im not making sense here, but i have the first glimmer of why i am having so much trouble with things here. i can not be formed into what is wanted. a quiet, allowing person who looks away when abuse occurs. i dont want to be. i want models in this place. everywhere, actually. people who put their own beliefs aside and act as mentors to model basic respect. show others it can be done and will be done. people who say, this isnt acceptable when any of us, including me, get out of hand. we all need that.

a basic diff in philosphy. a core belief of pretend. and i cant do that. i cant be comfortable with secrecy. with hidden things. it is against all i believe in. my belief of sunlight will cure most anything and dark will breed negative things. (ie...honesty vs secrets).

wow. i have been pondering this for a long time. it fits 100% with our own self responsibility and owning our actions. it fits in with we cant change the other. im not meaning to change them, but i am meaning others need to know something is not acceptable in life.

i cringe as i post this...in anticipation of the backlash..........but i feel much better having been able to put in words how i feel.

Actually, J... I don't think there is any significant difference in beliefs. IMO, there is nothing about Radical Acceptance that requires us to agree with or like injustice when we see or feel it. There is nothing that requires us to just do nothing to Radically Accept something. There is nothing in the Four Agreements that requires us to put up with injustice or pretend it doesn't exist. And I have yet to see anyone here make that argument.

However, that being said... IMO RA and 4A are telling us that we must look inside ourselves before we react. We must check to see if we are causing ourselves pain while claiming that others are causing it. And I think when we look carefully, there are a surprising number of times when we find we are doing just that.

Two really quick things before I run off to my meeting ...

1. Respect isn't demanded. It's given freely when it's earned.

2. We each have the right to our own beliefs and in order to retain those rights for ourselves we must in turn respect the rights of others to hold opposing or distasteful beliefs. Period.

More later ...

I agree with Ash, respect isn't demanded.

We can, however, let someone live with the consequences of not treating us with respect.

(I tend to see respect has having levels. We start with a basic amount of respect for someone new to us, and they earn or lose respect from there.)

I believe in courtesy and respect AT ALL TIMES, whether I think someone deserves it or not. I don't believe that respect has to be earned.

And in respecting someone, I might choose to call them on some behavior that I think they need to be called on.

I believe in courtesy and respect to myself at all times, too. I won't stand there like a push over if someone treats me with disrespect. I will let them know that I don't like it and to please stop doing it. If they don't, I can leave. If leaving is not possible, I can stop listening to them.

There is a song about it: R-E-S-P-E-C-T!

In fact, here is a link to some really good responses to insults, criticisms and the like.

http://www.ultimate-self.com/dealing-with-insults-put-downs-and-criticism/

Hey, Jody, BTW, it is good to see you on here! I was thinking about you! I wasn't on here when whatever happened, so please forgive me if I am clueless about the incident. Hope that you are doing OK.

(((GH))) ty!

i am so afraid every time i look at this thread.

i am being more detailed in my CC with kari, this is more a general discussion.

i totally disagree with Ash. my T taught me to demand respect. respect is a right. a basic, polite respect is everyones right as humans. no one does not deserve respect as a human, i dont care who they are. they exist, they deserve a basic respect to be treated as human. one can not disrespect someone until we decide they earned the right to have respect. that is just shutting the barn door after the horse got out. hows about giving basic respect until its shown someone steps on it and then just quit talking to them at all?

if someone is not given respect, they are disrespected. no 2 ways around that one. respect means speaking in a nice tone of voice, a how are you sir, food, shelter and safety without being hurt. you know a nice thank you to the cashier, a pardon me to someone, like that stuff. i mean, that is plain respect and manners.

trust is earned. respect is owed as one human to another. as life ...in the case of animals.

one can not be ugly to someone just because we dont know them or time hasnt passed for them to earn to be treated decently.

by respect i mean treated decently. i dont mean kiss their ass. i mean polite , decent treatment. hell, i may never know someone long enough to know if they earned anything, but i can say hi, how are ya or open a door for a elderly person, or give a buck to a homeless person. that is simple respect. thank you, excuse me, that is respect. manners are respect.

"""There is nothing in the Four Agreements that requires us to put up with injustice or pretend it doesn't exist."""". that is what i was expected to do. pretend it doesnt exist and let it continue. and i cant do that with any situation that belittles me as a human being.

i am afraid we may get off track here with our own definitions of respect, or injustice. i dont want that to happen, so i defined respect as i see it above.

justice to me is fair treatment to all. no one is given perks or no one is given less than another. that is justice to me. injustice would be when someone is given a free ride to break a law, or someone who didnt break a law is punished for it anyways. equality, in a nutshell of certain basic rights. as the sign says, no discrimination due to beliefs, race, age, religion, or ethnicity.

thanks GH, for that link. i found this very enlightening. """Most people have a tendency to do what they can get away with—and if they do, then it escalates. We teach people how to treat us. It is best to challenge insults, for our own sakes (so that our self-esteem doesn’t suffer) and for our ‘attacker’s’ (so that our silence doesn’t encourage and reinforce their behaviour). Insults and put-downs are acts of hostility that we need to protect ourselves from.""""

EXACTLY what i have been saying. i need to learn those responses, and will print them out. that is my problem, what to respond. i found out being quiet didnt work for me. it just causes me to overreact in the long run. i need those ideas on that page. thank you!

life has thrown me some curves, GH. im trying!

I am smiling only because my T approached this from another angle: He told me, drilled into my head that I was to give respect and courtesy at all times TO ALL whether I think they deserved it or not.

He also drilled that I give myself that same courtesy and respect.

Perhaps because I can be such a critic at times? Sarcastic? Outspoken?Um, yes.

I think that perhaps, Jody, there are too many times you let things slide and once they all pile up on you, you have had it, maybe? Perhaps if you found a courteous and respectful way to let others know when they've crossed a boundary with you? And then, politely, called them on it?

I have found that works much, much better for me. There is another crucial segment though; I ask myself if it is a battle that I want to take on (at times - certainly not everytime).

Another good question: How can I most effectively handle this, for everyone and keep relationships intact?

Like you, I have a part of me that has a problem with injustice. Something I don't want to be rid of as I do think it is part of my Unique Self. (You remember my episode on here with the slum lord and rescuing the kitties, don't you? I am glad I got involved as the house was fixed up, more responsible renters found, and I got my handsome, white kitty! I'd say that was pretty darn effective, although emotional for me.)

I also agree with you that respect is just given. There is no need to demand it if it is given. Ya know? Wouldn't the world be a happier place to live if everyone just gave it?

Trust, I give that, too UNTIL one gives me a reason not to trust them any longer. And there are several levels of trust. And someone can earn back my trust.

Jody, your opinions are as valid as anyone else's opinions on this Board. Please remember that.
I am glad to see you back. I'm glad that link helped you! (Gosh, my Sis e-mailed that to me yesterday! What timing, eh? Meant to be? )

(((((Jody)))))

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind." ~Dr. Suess

That used to be Ash's signature a while ago. I love that saying and I love Dr. Suess.

Perhaps your T means something different than Ash and I?

Seem to me, to demand something it trying to control the other person. Maybe what you understand when you say "demand respect" isn't what Ash and I are hearing.

I don't understand how demanding respect is even doable. Expect respect, yes. Respond appropriately if I don't get it, yes. Tell someone what I expect, yes. But expect that if I express my desire for respect ferverantly enough I will get it, no. I can't make someone else respect me.

So, if "demanding respect" isn't trying to make someone respect you (trying to control them), can you tell us what you mean by this, Jody?

First, a couple corrections in the paragraph of mine quoted above. So if it was unclear, it should be clearer now.

And, an additional thought. I do think there are different ideas of respect. Where I'm agreeing with Ash, though, doesn't have to do with the ideas of respect (I've shared my own view on that already) but on the idea of demanding something. Which is why I'm wondering what you mean by "demand" when you say "respect must be demanded by all".

Another question upon rereading that. Who does the "by all" refer to? Do you mean all people must "demand" respect from others? Or do you mean you should "demand" respect from all others? (Whether that distinction is significant, I'm not sure, since I don't know what you mean by "demand".)

To me, that's courtesy which is completely separate from respect.

I was married to a man that I lost all respect for. I still treated him well. I didn't take him to the cleaners when we got divorced. I never said cruel things to him. I just didn't respect him as an adult male that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with.

To me, respect is a form of esteem or regard. A form of appreciation, if you will. I recognize and appreciate the contributions you bring to the relationship, whatever kind of relationship that is.

If you're a complete jackass, I can be civil toward you, refrain from calling you names, hold back the rant, stop myself from decking you but I don't have to respect you just because you breathe.

I can respect your right to exist on a most basic level but I don't have to have any form of appreciation for the stupid, moronic, hurtful, abusive, negligent things you might do or inflict on me or my loved ones. Why on earth would I?

Someone (probably Jody) mentioned the child molester at some point in some thread. By the logic shared by Jody and GH, I should respect a child molester. Sorry, I just don't. Not beyond the most basic level of respect. I respect his right to breathe. That's it. Beyond that, he has taken any respect I may have had for him (the baseline amount of respect I give all people) and spit on it, tore it up, set it on fire and then shit on it. Why would I want to keep giving him 'respect' when that's what he does with it? I don't understand the logic or rationale behind such an approach.

If I'm raped, I should hold my rapist in the same high esteem as I hold my grandmother and father and spouse?

If a gang-banger kills my husband, I should appreciate the contributions his murderer brought to the relationship?

This does not compute for me.

Just because I don't kick someone in the shins does not mean I respect them. There are people all around me that have very little levels of respect in my eyes and I have no apologies for that.

Calling someone out on their unhealthy or disruptive behaviour is not a form of disrespect in my eyes. If I didn't care, if I didn't give a shit, if I didn't think you had more to offer than the crap you were putting forth, I wouldn't waste my time trying to communicate with you, trying to help you learn. I'd walk away and not be bothered and devote my energies to those I do hold in higher esteem, whose efforts to improve themselves I appreciate, who have demonstrated that they respect themselves.

Much the same as the Five Steps tells us to look for three possible solutions, to find the grey between the black and the white, I think there are grey shades on the respect continuum.

From pure white absolute respect almost to the point of adoration and adulation down to basic respect that one has simply because they breathe. I can respect you, not respect you and I could disrespect you.

Respect You = actively demonstrate that I hold you in high regard, take action to show my appreciation for who you are, what you bring to the table

Not Respect You = have no action toward you whatsoever, like a gnat, of little or no consequence in my life

Disrespect You = actively seek to remove respect from your world, actively attempting to diminish any esteem others might have toward you

I do believe there are people here who are disrespectful. I would encourage those who are actively attempting to persuade, cajole and influence BPDR into a place where disrespect should not exist or be allowed to continue to really think carefully about the old adage of "Be careful what you wish for."

Those who are disrespectful are those who are unable to remain focused on themselves and try to impose or project onto others.

They are the ones who perpetually make situations about others in an attempt to "expose" them -- another way of actively seeking to diminish esteem in their world.

Those who are disrespectful have a mission to have the world around them agree with their estimation of others for whatever reasons.

Disrespectful people trample over the boundaries of others.

They completely disregard another person's right to hold an opinion different from their own.

That, folks, is my definition of disrespect.

I agree that disrespect exists here at BPDR. I think that one of the purposes of BPDR's existance is to help those people learn how to respect the boundaries of others, to respect other people's rights to think, say, feel, act and believe how they wish.

If ya'll (in the most generic terms) really want to exist in disrespect-free online community, I sincerely suggest ya'll begin looking around for a new forum. I really think it would be highly counterproductive to the goals of BPDR to boot out those we feel are disrespectful, using the outline above as the guiding force for defining disrespectful behaviour.

This seems so subjective. If I feel disrespected, that means the other person disrespected me...that's making feelings into facts. And a hypersensitive person is going to take everything personally. I just went through this IRL with someone I thought had gotten to know me over the last year. She was storing up some seriously innocuous remarks that I had made in conversation, because her "disrespect" filter is set at such a high level of sensitivity. I mean, these were ridiculously innocent remarks by most people's definition. Then she let me have it, vented at me about how disrespectful I am. Well she got her wish...disrespectful old me is out of her life. Why? Because she turned out to be the disrespectful one. I have no use for someone who imposes their idea of respect onto remarks made in casual conversation and then feels justified in blowing up.

Ignoring bad behavior OR pretending it doesn't exist are not the same thing.

I can't MAKE anyone treat me with respect. I can't MAKE them respect me. I can refuse to engage if I feel I'm not treated with respect, but I cannot force someone to behave differently.

I do not consider disrespect to be abuse.
Bad behavior? Yes. Unpleasant? Yes. Something I prefer not to be around? Yes.
Abuse? no.
We DO all deserve respect as human beings, but most of the disrespect I run into, both here and in RL, is NOT the de-humanizing kind. It's carelessness, thoughtlessness, selfishness with no reflection on my individual worth. I can waste a lot of time and energy crusading to educate the world. Usually it's best for me to learn how to cope while living with disrespectful people.

Do "they" learn anything if I choose to ignore, if I choose to disengage and walk away? They learn that I'm not going to stick around for that! They learn that I'm not going to listen to that crap...

There IS no absolute, one-size-fits-all law because there is no absolute ANYTHING.
You may say that murder is wrong (and I would agree with you!), yet killing someone in self-defense is not legally considered the same crime as killing a stranger on the street for his wallet. The dead man's family might feel the same way about the loss of their loved one, but the law understands that self-defense and murder are not the same thing. The law also differentiates between manslaughter (a death that "happened") and murder (killing on purpose).
The end result of the act is the same - one human being loses their life, yet the circumstances surrounding that act can be so varied. The law takes those variations into account.
If something as basic as the laws of murder are not absolute, then how on earth can we untrained volunteers write one single rule that covers every possible mutation of "who can post what to whom"?

Acceptance does NOT mean that I like something!!

From Wikipedia:



The operative word is treat others with respect and courtesy whether I think they deserve it or not.

Ash wrote:



Are you kidding Ash? Or are you trying to be unkind with that kind of insult? Again, I will point out that you are using inflammatory statements when a gentler word would work. (Elephant gun instead of a fly swatter kind of thing.)

I 'respect' the value of that individual's rights as a human being. I can treat that person with respect, whether I think they deserve it or not. That means, I will not go all 'vigilante' on that rapist or child molester and respect their rights as a human being. That means, I can be polite and courteous.



That pretty much says it right there, doesn't it? This is a community board and if someone IS disrespectful or it seems that they are being disrespectful, I can ask them for clarification. I can ask them exactly what they meant. I can ask them to please not do it again. I believe everyone on here has that right. (Whether the other stops doing it or not is not something I can control.)

As CL and SCL's, y'all have the 'control' to counsel the disrespectful individual and then, if the disrespect continues, y'all have the 'control' to censor them by not allowing them to return to the Board to post.

Not that I think CL and SCL's need to be fighting other's battles on here. I don't. I do think that if there is someone who is consistently disrespectful, perhaps THEY need to find another Forum.

JMHO

P.S. My definition of respect is akin to the one I posted in this particular thread. I think that I am seeing different definitions here and that might be what is causing the misperceptions. I am refering to a 'basic respect' that I believe all are worthy of.

Okay, if we're comparing definitions, here's Merriam-Webster.com:


and

(Side note: wow! I hadn't even looked up the literal definition of "respect" before I posted earlier. How amazing is that?!)
I respect Merriam-Webster more than I respect Wikipedia. Why? Because Merriam-Webster's business and sole focus is on language and the meaning of words. Wikipedia is a random collection of people who have decided they want their ideas to be heard and can self-publish them on the site. I hold the opinion of wordsmith professionals in higher regard or esteem than I do for a random Joe Schmoe.

I am not saying Jody or GH said I should respect a child molester. In fact, I didn't bring up the child molester. The hyperbolic child molester and their bretheren were used in my example because they had already been raised. I was tying things together.

I was saying that my interpretation of the opposing point of view's logic was such that, in the extreme that had already been raised, I should respect despicable individuals.


I see no mention of respect being tied to courtesy or vice versa.

As I said, my definition of disrespect is a far cry from the definition others hold. People who insist that everyone (or anyone really) conform to their way of thinking are being disrespectful. People who trample the boundaries of others are being disrespectful. People who try to expose or otherwise villify, launch a campaign against, use their words to gossip about others are being disrespectful. There's a LOT of that going on around here at BPDR.

If the general consensus is that the S/CL Leadership Team of BPDR should be taking more action than has been taken to this point to minimize disrespectful actions and possibly remove disrespectful individuals from the community, I'm sure we can come to an agreement on that. I believe there are several core, repeat offenders and I believe that considerable time and effort is spent trying to deal with, counsel about, strategize to minimize the damaging effects, douse fires, etc. that these disrespectful actions have incurred within the community.

I do believe that it may be beneficial to the community as a whole to remove the disrespect to create a healthier environment - HOWEVER - the question then becomes "where does the line get drawn?" This is, after all, a recovery-oriented community where our common, shared goal is to work toward healthier, happier living -- aka without disrespecting others. If all who show an inkling of disrespect (by any of the various definitions floating around in this thread) are removed immediately, this place would be a deserted wasteland. None of us are perfect. We are all human beings which makes us all fallible.

So when does the threshhold of "too disrespectful" get crossed? At what point? With flamers and trolls, it's fairly obvious. With new members, we do tend to offer more leeway simply because they're new to the concepts of respecting boundaries and those around them. If we look at the long-timers, when does a person become a long-timer? At six months? Six years? At what point do we say "What you're doing is disrespectful and despite x amount of time devoted to helping you see that, you are obviously unable to see this so you need to leave"?

Ash wrote:



Thank you for clarifying that. However, I have searched the entire thread for any reference to 'child molester' and it seems that you were the first, in this particular thread, to bring it up. If it was brought up in another thread, I am unaware of it. Please do not tie me to whatever was said by someone else in another thread.

I have the actual BOOK sitting here on my desk called "Webster's 21st Century Dictionary".

The definition of Respect in this particular dictionary:
1. esteem; honor 2. consideration 3. detail 4. deference, regard (noun) 5. show consideration for 6. hold in honor (verb)

The definition of Courtesy:
politeness (noun)

I do not have these two 'intertwined' per se or think that one means the other, no.

I do think that I need to treat all with courtesy and respect whether I think they deserve it or not.

That is my belief. It is a mode of behavior. Responding out of a place of 'respect' instead of reacting. And to do so as courteously as possible. I will do my best, anyway. And I like Wikipedia's definition.

Ash wrote:



Thank you. I do think y'all are doing a great job, BTW. And I do understand the difficulties in enforcing a policy, heck, even making a policy on those that are 'disrespectful'. That being said, I do think there needs to be one. Perhaps a rule of engagment?

Again, just my 2 cents worth...

I understand the dilemma Ash. I think it gets sticky when, for instance, Person A is consistently disrespectful to Person B and it continues. Sometimes a Person A is called on it, sometimes they're not. So it leaves Person B wondering "why do they not call Person A on this when they've done it at other times with other people - why am I so different?" There is no consistency. I know it's difficult to be consistent, but it leaves Person B feeling like no one cares about this difficulty. And then how is Person B supposed to respond? Pretend they don't care that they're being told one thing when others get different treatment? As I said, it's a sticky situation.

And yes, I agree with GH - you're all doing a great job. It's not easy!

Ohhhh.... THAT respect!!!



When I moved to this part of the country a few years ago from Northenmost YankeeLand, I encountered a statement as a reply to something I or another would say... it was so frequent that I wondered if it had a special meaning... and it turns out it did...

The statement... "Well, blessssss your/her/his heart."

A most respectful way of saying...

"How could you/he/she be such a dumbass?"

Not such a respectful way of thinking, to my mind.

Is THAT what that means? Well, what do you know? They say that here in the midwest too.

But, it's person B's responsibility to call person A on it if person A is being disrespectful to person B, it seems to me. If someone is disrespectful to me, I should say or do something, rather than thinking it's someone else's responsibility to protect me.

Whether then community leaders choose to say something to the person being disrespectful to me is really not my stuff. That interaction is about that person, not me.

Now, sometimes, it may be appropriate to say to the community leaders, "Hey, P is doing X to me". Still, even then, how they deal with it is between then and P. They aren't required to update me on non-public interactions.

Well, that's how I see it.

When people here have been disrespectful to me, I've never seen it as the job of the community leaders to take care of it. I deal with the person directly. I set boundaries if I need to, including, possibly, avoiding the person or not replying to their posts.

GH, you're right - I did bring up the molester in this thread. This thread seems to be very closely tied to Jody's other thread. In this post

Jody started this thread right on that post's heels (32 mins later, which allows for typing time). In the opening post, Jody referred to:



Jody didn't mention child molesting in this thread. I did, because it obviously related to her thoughts from less than an hour earlier. I was following her logic train, and then, later, yours.


It seems that Jody's train and GH's train are diverging. Jody seems to be saying that child molesters, bullies and the like should not be allowed deference, they should be given no leeway, they should always be exposed and publicly called to task because otherwise it's turning a blind eye, it's unfair, all things should be enforced unilaterally. GH seems to be saying that they can be called to task but they should still be esteemed, honored, given consideration, leeway, deference to their particular situations.

Respecting a bully might mean "I understand you were abused and that this is the best coping mechanism you have at your disposal. Let's work on getting you some other, better coping skills." Jody, I think, is saying this is inappropriate and unacceptable because they are not being kicked out straight-away, that leeway is being given to people in the learning process, that they are being forgiven their ignorance.

Similarly (or conversely, I can't quite tell, things are a bit twisty), by Jody's logic of "respect must be demanded by all," the animal abusers, arsonists, playground bullies and rapists are just demanding the respect they feel owed to them.

If respect is an action and respect is to be demanded, then it would follow that I can demand you respect me by pinning you down and stealing your lunch money -- getting the money out of you is proof of respect. (At least, that's how a bully sees it.)

im glad everyone is discussing this on here good deal.

i am working on something with cali-ista and kari and as such wont have time to post here in this thread. besides, a bunch of arguing over what is meant by this or that isnt what i want to do.

i also dont really want to argue with you, Ash, because you scare me and we just are such diff people, im not sure we each speak the same english language. you dont come close to understanding what i mean, and i dont have the time or energy to try to get you too. no offense meant.

Ash, that is not what i was saying, please please dont assume what i mean and project accordingly, you are way off in what i meant. i never said a thing about kicking anyone off a board. please dont put words in my mouth.

""""Jody, I think, is saying this is inappropriate and unacceptable because they are not being kicked out straight-away, that leeway is being given to people in the learning process, that they are being forgiven their ignorance.

Similarly (or conversely, I can't quite tell, things are a bit twisty), by Jody's logic of "respect must be demanded by all," the animal abusers, arsonists, playground bullies and rapists are just demanding the respect they feel owed to them. """". i have no idea where you got all this, but by my logic a bully deserves respect and as such gets the same behavior anyone else would get. i never said any one should be kicked out straight away. that would be VERY disrespectful. Ash, this isnt the first time this has happened, where you think you hear something i DO NOT say or mean and you go on accordingly and we get in a mess of miscommunication. bullies lack self respect and others respect, or they wouldnt need to bully another to obtain self power. same with rapists. rape is about power. anyone feeling they are losing self power will use physical or verbal rage to try to obtain it. i dont care of their charles manson, he deserves respect because he is a living being. my version of respect is what i mean. me giving respect means nothing but i recognize their worth as a living being. and i recognize my worth and i have no reason to treat them or anyone as shit.

""""If respect is an action and respect is to be demanded, then it would follow that I can demand you respect me by pinning you down and stealing your lunch money -- getting the money out of you is proof of respect. (At least, that's how a bully sees it.)"""""

this whole idea is so far off from what i mean. maybe to condense it, courtesy, manners, respect, every living thing deserves this. hows that? not ass kissing, not hugging and com-bah-yah ....but decent courtesy.

courtesy extended not being crap, your fat, how can you be so stupid, your hair looks like shit, etc. courtesy or respect for another being as i term it, being hi, excuse me, how are you, smile maybe, just a decent behavior to anyone. dont kick a dog, dont pull off a flys wings, dont run into someone and snarl. that is what i mean. and every living creature deserves this, imho*. from the Pope, to a ladybug, to a person on death row. all deserve this.

Gh, your link said it. i copied the responses and intend to use them..thank you. and no more anger by repressing myself. ty, girl. i am learning, finally.

IBF, when i say bless your heart, i DO NOT mean your a dumb ass. i mean, aww, im sorry, bless you for whatever it is....it never means your a dumb ass in texas. again, assuming things not in evidence. bless your heart means....im sorry something hurts you, i hope you get better, how sad that happened to you. something to that nature.

rereading over the thread, i dont see why some of the replies are getting testy, and i see that most of us do not have the same definition of certain words. so its a mess, going out of control quickly and everyone thinking and using their own definitions and wanting to yell at the other.

as Ash is using molester, i will also. yes, a molester is owed respect. why? because he/she is a living entity. do i mean invite them to supper and play cards? no. i mean being polite to them, making sure they have a roof and 3 squares a day and reasonable clothes. the geneva convention, etc is about respect to another living creature. this is what i mean by people are owed respect. would one tie a dog out in the ice? would one stick prisoners in a camp with no clothes and no food and let them starve? some might, but they lack respect for living creatures.

respect is the basis of civilization. a peaceful, decent, good civilization. when respect is lost, its all lost. most prisons are full because of lack of basic respect. most animal shelters are. most countries who are considered problems have one issue...no respect for others. darfur, iraq, iran, africa,,,etc etc.

Jody, I notice you haven't addressed my question about what you mean by "demand" when you say respect must be demanded by all.

I don't think that is what the definition of respect is. Maybe that's called humane treatment, but that's different from respect. I can say i have absolutely no respect for Charles Manson or molesters. None.