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sorry ellen, was working on another issue and didnt see it. my bad.

what my T taught me by demanding respect is...hmm lets see how to put it.

i deserve certain things by virtue of being a living creature in this world.

i deserve basics, decent food, clothes, a roof, warmth, you got that. i deserve people to say excuse me, thank you, please, how are you (if applicable).

i (and everyone) do not deserve to be bad mouthed. abused. hurt.

thus it is alright to admit and say..im hurt. i dont deserve your words. i dont deserve the attitude. if you have a problem with me, please say it in calm terms and we can work on it. but i will not allow bad things about me, to me, and sit quietly for them.

that is what i mean by demanding respect. more it is...not allowing disrespect in a good way.

demanding could mean i expect respect from everyone. i expect to give it to everyone. because someone disrespects me, does not give me the right to disrespect them or another.

speaking as for ellen, you deserve to demand respect. you should expect it. and when it doesnt come forth, you have the right to say im a human who is owed a decent respect and i expect you to show it to me.

does this help at all? you know me and verbal things.........

a better word might be...expect. i dont know..demand doesnt sound like what i mean but my T used it. like, its ok to stand up for yourself if someone disrespects you in some way. say, they let a door slam in your face. its ok to say hey bud, that wasnt nice.

and i mean simply by the fact of being a living creature, all deserve this behavior towards everyone. meaning no one has a right to treat another creature badly. thus, we have a right to certain things and to demand, if you will, we receive them. now we cant make another do it, i dont mean that at all, i mean we should expect it and have a boundary when we dont get it. not simply accept bad behavior as ok.

hard for me to put in words that make sense...these are concepts to me, beliefs in my belief system, and hard to say in just words.

jody -

Could the issue for you be then- what can you do when you dont get what you expect? And could this possibly exactly what others are here trying to tell you? That you can 'expect' all you want, but you can't 'make' someone give it to you and because you can't make someone do anything, they are asking you to figure out for yourself what you can do (ie what boundaries you want to have in place to cope) ?

Dunno if I am grapsing what you are saying.

The other side to this, from what I gather from your posts is that - what you expect, you feel is basic part of 'being' and should be expected by everyone everywhere... and hence you would like to see this board also have this expectation...

this then gets back to my comment about the guy that cuts us off in traffice and/or runs the red light.. we all 'expect' that we will get caught; pay a fine, but it doesnt always happen..

and, imo, I think, perhaps, this board has been saying.. Jody, it doesnt always happen so how can you cause yourself less pain by standing around and stomping your foot and saying 'but it should, it should always happen'....

just some additional thoughts, perhaps you've already heard them, read them and answered them

jody,

It would be nice if people always treated me with respect, the way I think they should. Reality paints a different picture.

There is a grey area in this scenario that I think you have yet to find, and it causes you a lot of distress. I, for one, do not want to be abused. But when I am too demanding on my bf, he does yell and say bad words to me. I realize that it's partly my fault that he did it, because I was so demanding on him, and he just couldn't handle the stress any longer. A person cannot be pushed past their limits. He also gets cranky sometimes, and he would not be up to spec in your mind, and I wouldn't either, because I fail sometimes. All humans do. You fail to meet your own expectations at times, which is also something you could realize. However, there is a line where we won't tolerate certain things that are abusive, nor can we tolerate it if it happens too often and/or is too harsh. It's a mainstream way of handling people, not to say mainstream is for everyone, but it seems to work for most. There's a grey area where it seems like most people land, as to how much and how often they can tolerate things they consider abusive.

It seems that you are living by this code:

I expect others to act by my standards of conduct (which are mainstream and acceptable for your age group, I suppose), and if they don't, then they will have hell to pay, as in, I will do what it takes to seek justice against you for not abiding by my rules (which I am willing to break in order to achieve justice in my mind).

It's a bit uptight. What if others don't live by your rules (actually the entire nerd kingdom does not, and they are ok with that). Suddenly, should they have havoc wreaked upon them because they broke one of jody's own personal rules? If you read my online chats, you would think we were all devil's spawns lol and we are just a bunch of harmless, silly kids.

You are acting as everyone's judge, jury, and executioner.

What to do? What I would do is just stop responding or talking about it here, regardless of how you feel (and believe me, I felt upset and hurt by the things others said about me). I had some of the same problems you have with other people talking junk about me until I just decided to quit responding and then that became: I didn't care. And now I don't seem to have those problems anymore. It really does become more apparent how little it matters what they think or what they say when you take yourself out of the picture and view it third-person. Because most people can look at the situation and see reality. No one's going to be able to convince another of anything when they have a good idea of what is going on themselves. And those are the people that make a difference.

Yeah, Jody, now I better understand what you mean by that.

cool, ellen, glad i made sense!

aqua, you misunderstand my point almost 100%.

in no way am i judging another. indeed, i am NOT judging by giving others respect as people.

also i have no agenda to punish, discipline or elsewise. where you get that is something i cant follow.

i dont appreciate the reference to "my age group" for one, age has nothing to do with basic respect and two, my age group, as you say, is the rebels of the 60's. i hope people dont need to hit 50 to find respect.

i said nothing of the sort in my posts, about doing a thing bad to another. about seeing someone as "bad". your hearing things not there in my words.

i will say again to you, you dont know me from adam. yet you judge freely how you think i am. and your wrong in most all accounts.

""""What if others don't live by your rules (actually the entire nerd kingdom does not, and they are ok with that). Suddenly, should they have havoc wreaked upon them because they broke one of jody's own personal rules? If you read my online chats, you would think we were all devil's spawns lol and we are just a bunch of harmless, silly kids.""" you dont know what i would think. nor the age group of my own friends.

who are the entire nerd kingdom?

who said wreck havoc on anyone?

jody,

I am not going to get into a discussion with you until I feel you have given proper time to stand back and think about my message rather than jumping in impulsively. You are SO looking for any words to be offended by and to get upset over.... Please take other's suggestions for once. If you feel like being offended, don't post at all.

whatever, aqua. i asked legit questions to you over your own post. if you choose to not answer, thats cool.

actually im not offended at all. curious, confused, im not offended, tho.

you posted to me, i figured you were the one who got in the discussion with me. hmmmm, no? ok.

wasnt impulsive, wasnt jumping in (its my thread i began), but hey, however you see it is your thing.

""""You are SO looking for any words to be offended by and to get upset over""" wherever you find this, would you look for some lotto numbers in it? i could use the money. seriously, you know this how again? thats how YOU see things, not how they are.

"""If you feel like being offended, don't post at all.""" i dont think its your call if i post or not. if somehow it is, please refer me to where that is written.

aqua, you dont bother me at all. i asked for clarification of your words. nothing more. takes way more than that over a long period of time to bother or offend me.

i cant think about your message until i understand it. and nothing you said was close to a thing i said. i said nothing about going after another. this, in essence , is completely about me. about all of us and what we should expect from others. what we should give to others. respect. how we all deserve it as living creatures. where you get punish or havoc or such from that is completely lost with me. i was talking about the complete opposite of punish or havoc.

let me go back to condense what i meant to begin with.

i began by being upset over something and reverting to my flight mode to regroup. i didnt know (at the time) other skills to use.

i figured it out with help from GH and her fabulous link.

what i meant by this thread is we should demand respect from everyone. how to do that? by speaking up calmly and saying how we feel. "i hurt", etc. by saying x behavior is not respectful and set our individual boundary with it, be it walk off, ignore, whatever each chooses.

no where have i advocated any banning, havoc, punishing, disrespect in return, nothing of the sort.

i advocated self respect and giving that respect to every living creature we come across. and that its ok to want it back for ourselves. that is a right we all have by virtue of existing.

anything else is in the readers own filter.

smiling, im sorry, i didnt see your post until now. let me answer some of it.

actually, the thing i wanted from myself, i finally learned. its ok to be hurt, i am someone whose hurt matters, and its ok to calmly say it. thats really all of it! was so simple in the long run.

""""Could the issue for you be then- what can you do when you dont get what you expect"""" EXACTLY! well said! you got it. wish you would have told me that earlier! lol lol. i didnt know what it was i was looking for. now i do, and you hit it perfectly. i would add this tho, it was more that its ok i hurt. its ok i have feelings. and its ok to voice them in a respectful way.

""""The other side to this, from what I gather from your posts is that - what you expect, you feel is basic part of 'being' and should be expected by everyone everywhere... and hence you would like to see this board also have this expectation...""" yes!

"""" and, imo, I think, perhaps, this board has been saying.. Jody, it doesnt always happen so how can you cause yourself less pain by standing around and stomping your foot and saying 'but it should, it should always happen'.... """" exactly! but why did i feel that way? because i felt my pain was being ignored. and i learned only i can feel my own pain and verbalize it and thats ok! i felt by others not seeing it, somehow it didnt exist. how wrong! i have had a huge lightbulb over all this. i dont need others to see it any longer, i can see it and say it and its ok. you hit it so well, smiling.

somehow i felt because others didnt see it, it didnt exist. i didnt know how to stand up for jody. or say it. and now,,,,i DO.

and i wanted to share that with others. that they indeed deserve basic respect, and its ok to hurt and to say it.

So, in summary Jody, it seems what you're saying is that you are accepting and owning your hurt. You aren't making it the responsibility of another. Is that about right?

i wish i had the gift of condensing thoughts into words.

yes. and i accept its ok i hurt from something. and that seems to take away the need to stop the other, i dont know why.

and i can voice it in a healthy way now. i dont need to fight to make another see im hurt, cause i accepted i am.

(somehow that doesnt sound sensible to me but i know what i mean)

it was all about it being ok to hurt. my own acceptance of my feelings.

then i dont feel the need to prove it somehow to another. i dont know why.

its true that what we need is inner acceptance of ourselves. and the only place we can get it is us. the other kinda fades away.

somehow i had twisted up that i should not be hurt, didnt own it, didnt think it was ok. i had ignoring caught up with not feeling.

it isnt the responsibility of another...its my own pain. and what to do with it. just feeling that takes away the need to have another see im hurt. i dont know why.

Great insight! Perhaps it's bc when you choose to accept the hurt and take full responsibility and ownership of that feeling, what you're doing is validating yourself, rather than needing another to.

exactly, it is. when i was a child, i couldnt validate myself. children cant. so they tend to run to someone with a boo boo, to simplify this. and i was taught to shut up---turning it in my own mind as it doesnt matter if i hurt. dont mention it, yet i knew it hurt. a confused signal to teach a kid. but i carried it on into adulthood, reinforced by my H and my mom along the way.

actually, much of my counseling and the books i have say many, many people do this. it is a core issue of society. internal anger with no self power. and feelings never go away if stuffed or denied. they come out, in violence, in diseases, in abuse or robbery or such. society tends to want others to stuff their needs and pain because if it isnt, society would have to face its own pains. and it doesnt want to. thus the pressure to shut up, act like a man, dont be a baby, and pretend it isnt happening. (excellent books and my T who taught me this)

till now, it didnt sink in. and suddenly, click, and there it was. the whole problem which wasnt necessarily the behavior but the way i --I--dealt with it. i didnt know a healthy way to deal with it. i only knew the more i stuffed it, the more i wanted to explode.

by saying things, i could not take things personally. doesnt make sense, does it? but it is true! by owning i hurt, and why, i could find a release for the feelings. oh, it still hurts. but not the same way. its a normal hurt of sheesh, that wasnt nice! i am ok to hurt because anyone would who was human. and its ok to say it out loud to someone.

i am so slow sometimes in learning things not just in my mind, but in my heart. walk the walk, ya know. but i get it eventually!

which is why i say everyone deserves respect. the core problem in society is lack of this. without respect as a person, people have anger. which comes out in many bad ways. no one held them as kids and said you hurt and im so sorry you do. that creates the idea of self.

this is deep, i know, but so helpful in healing.

I see it as validation. Wanting to feel validated. That what I am saying makes sense and to not be told to ignore it or stuff it down. That my feelings are indeed important. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not - just at least admit that I have these feelings and it's okay.

I read that many with BPD were not validated as kids. I was never abused, but looking back I can say that many times my feelings were not validated. Being told I shouldn't feel this way or that way. How does that make a kid feel? Like what they're feeling is WRONG. Which then translates to - "you're a bad person for having these feelings."

I see now that most of my struggles here on BPDR and in RL are in wanting people to validate what I am trying to say. Not to necessarily AGREE with what I say, but to at least admit that I have a right to these feelings. To not minimize them. My feelings for so many years have been for others to minimize them - my H, my parents, my sister. "Oh, you shouldn't feel that way." Well, WTF - I DO feel that way! What are you going to do - sue me?

Sorry if I got off on a tangent. But your post Jody put the lightbulb over my head. Made me realize what my core issue is. Just like you just learned what yours is. I dont' need to be agreed with, but dammit - I want to be somewhat understood and not made to feel like a bad person because of how and what I feel. To me, that's respect!

you said perfectly, BG! exactly what we all need. to be given, to receive and to give back to others.

i think its the core problem of many issues many have, not just us.

It can be important to feel validated.

The importance varies among individuals and by circumstances.

It can be really really important. Or not very.

So, that offers two questions that we've batted around before. And one new one.

Who besides ourselves has any responsibility or obligation to behave or say things in ways for the sake of making us feel validated?

If we're in a situation where we feel like we want and need validation and we're not getting any, and we're not happy about not getting it... what options do we have with respect to ourselves and the others involved? What options are more effective, which are more ineffective?

And what things will you do the next time you find yourself at BPDR, wanting validation and not getting what you want and need?

I think we have to learn to get that validation from within ourselves.

When we're children and not getting validated, it's harder because we haven't developed a good sense of self and what our feelings mean or where they come from, and we don't know what the "rules" of life are. But we're adults now. We shouldn't need to rely on surrogate parents (i.e. your peers on a message board) to tell us if our thoughts or feelings are valid or not.

This almost desperate search for external validation is what often leads to these meltdowns around here, at least in my opinion.

Sure, it would be nice to have someone say "I hear you and I understand." All of us would like that, all the time. But sometimes it just ain't gonna happen. And then what?

Sometimes it's just hard to get someone to listen, for whatever reason. And that is all *their* stuff. And sometimes people just flat out don't agree with you or see what you see. They may tell you they disagree, or they may just stay silent rather than risk an argument. Either way, you're not going to get what you're looking for from others. But that *doesn't* mean that you're wrong, and it certainly doesn't mean, as BG suggested, that the lack of validation means that you're a bad person. It's easy to see how a child might learn to feel that way, but in adults, it's coming completely from within our own heads. I don't think *anybody* here has suggested that you, Jody, or BG either, is a bad person because you feel the way you do about respect, for instance.

If you find yourself feeling invalidated, do a little reality testing. Run through the Tools. Step back and ask yourself if what you're thinking or feeling is realistic or if it needs to be reassessed a little. But if you're convinced that it's OK, that it squares with who you are at the core of yourself, then you can tell yourself that you're fine. You don't *have* to have that outside person pat you on the back and give you hugs and do all the things that you wish your mother had done for you.

I have no problem with a person posting something that says "I'm feeling this and such way about a situation, and I'm not sure if my feelings are valid, and I'd like some feedback." But if you're already sure within yourself about how you feel, why do that? Especially if you're going to get upset when people -- who may be coming from a totally different place -- disagree with you and tell you they wouldn't feel that way at all.

Look within yourself first.

exactly! 100% what i figured out. i gave myself permission to validate myself. and it worked! it has taken a ton of time and work to give myself permission to "be".

next time, i wont have to go thru a entire circle to come to this conclusion. i wont need it any longer. it was a huge lightbulb for me and im very grateful i learned it.

in my case, Sari, i had to give myself permission to validate myself. something hugely forbidden before now,. and somehow it broke thru and its good now. i dont know how or why..it just hit me.

no one can make us feel anything. or give us validation. until we give ourselves permission to have it, we wont have it. until it hits our souls, it wont happen. somehow, mine hit my soul. im not talking the talk, i walked the walk. my T would be pleased.

bpd stuff is strange and hard to understand even when its me doing it. and hard to break thru to something positive, or at least for me it is. and sometimes it just "does". breaks thru.

I'm just wondering Jody, people have raised with you here a few times that you see abuse in actions, when perhaps no abuse is present. I'm wondering if this will change that for you. What do you think? (I'm not trying to get into old stuff between us - it's a sincere question).

i wonder that, also, sarah. damn, i hope so. it is a product of the cptsd...and yes, i know i do that.

np about asking, i appreciate the way you worded it.

one thing i have trouble with sometimes is reality. what is really happening vs what do i hear or see thru my filters? i have big time crap with that sometimes. such as what i feel as abuse when it may not be.

my t said, due to cptsd, i am extremely sensitized to certain things.

i think i am on the right road, its just not something i can control--such as saying ok, i logically understand x or y, thus i should "feel" x or y as such. yet i dont, until something cracks in me and suddenly i "get it". i didnt realize it would work like that.

possibly what could seem to others that i relive things over and over could be my way of trying to get something to click, to crack, so it gets inside me. and it does work for me altho it may annoy others who read me going thru it.

Who do I expect validation from? Well, I expect it from my T. When I speak to him and have problems, I'd at least like for him to validate how I'm feeling. Once I'm validated I can move on into working the problems out.

I can't say I expect validation from anyone else. Maybe I'd like to have validation from my H regarding certain instances. It depends.

Sometimes I'd like it here at BPDR too. It depends. I don't expect or want people to feel sorry for me, but at least maybe understand where I'm coming from when I post about a problem I may have. It may not be realistic, but I can maybe hope for a little bit of validation here sometimes. So then when a suggestion is given to me, I know that that person is giving it from a position of understanding how I may be feeling.

what im figuring, BG, after reading tons of threads and posts, is some are capable of validating IF we are clear on what we need. and ASK clearly.

some arent capable at all and even hate someone who needs it. my personal take is they hate themselves for needing it, and project this onto others who need it and can ask.

usually we are angry over things we dont like in ourselves. thus the victim issues, validation, etc. seeing it this way makes it easier for me to let it go, altho i dont let go of the idea they are wrong for being --excuse me, i need to be clearer, speaking in a disrespectful way to someone.

i expected it from my T, and bless her, got it so much it was like water in the sahara. she taught me so much, i can never be grateful enough i was allowed to know her.

but we have to clearly ask for what we need or are looking for. and then understand we may not get it, and if not, its ok. some just arent ready to give. some dont know how. some truly dont care at all. and some, bless them, care and give such kindness and caring, we are blessed to know them.

but not receiving it, is not saying we arent worth it. or dont deserve it, its saying things about the other person, not us. we must learn to give it to ourselves, and know its ok to be hurt regardless.

validation is NOT feeling sorry for someone. it is saying, you hurt and its ok to because you are a person in your own right. maybe even feeling sorry for the pain they are going thru. i hate seeing a person or animal in pain.

dunno, does this help?

Yes Jody. I don't think of validation as someone feeling sorry for me. I think of validation as someone understanding where I'm coming from. They don't have to agree with me, they don't have to pat me on the back or hold my hand. Just that they understand!

Another problem I have is that very often I don't know my own feelings. So when I discuss something with my T, and he helps me figure out what is going on, by doing that he also is validating me.

I don't see how anyone can help anyone else if they don't understand where they're coming from. I can't respond to a post if I don't understand it. So the validation is yes, I see what you mean, I hear you, and I understand. You don't have to agree with me, but at least see where I'm at.

I can see how there are people who can't do that. That's okay. I guess what I have to learn is how to validate myself. I'm not there yet. I'm not sure of my feelings yet. But I'm working on it.

im still working on this also. still a very new concept for me and i have to see where and how it fits in.

i agree with all you wrote, tho. i relate to it.

i post here a lot to help understand my feelings. or to gauge reality, as i have trouble sometimes seeing things as wrong or right, or is this ok? type stuff. i note a lot here dont understand that and dont see why im asking something. oh well, im beginning to let go of what i wish and just do things for me. any replies or views i look at as gravy, esp nice ones.

my view of why i am here has evolved, and my view of others has evolved as well. i have had to change a lot of what i thought this place was, what i ask from it, and what i can give to it. i think that will help me in my self growth process.

again, i think validation comes to several things. its a recognizable part that i am a human being, as well as a example of anothers inner thoughts and issues. it takes empathy and respect for others to provide validation. ultimately, it has to come from within us. looking to others to fill our holes (ouch, that sounded pornographic lol) looking to others to give us something is almost always a road to a let down, because their own issues come into play so much. instead of us and us, it becomes us and others. and with 2 people, it adds in their shit also. it also adds in their positive qualities, but we have to learn what to accept and what to reject.

certainly teaches us a lot about ourselves, tho.

Sure, that seems to be how PTSD works, and overcoming it (in a similar vein to BPD) is about learning that just bc you're sensitive to certain things, doesn't mean your perception matches reality.

I've noticed in your interactions with and discussions about Denim Blue you have repeatedly referred to her supposed feelings of "hatred" for you. Even in your most recent post to her on CC you've used that word to describe her feelings.

Denim hasn't said she hates you, not once. I can't see hatred in her words. Regardless of what her words are about she hasn't, IMHO, expressed hatred once.

There certainly seems to be some perception of hatred within you. And so I'm thinking perhaps you could apply some of the learning in this thread to this idea. It seems to me Jody that when you "feel" attacked (whether or not an attack is actually occurring) you fight back. You've talked a lot about this recently. And the form your fight takes is in an accusation, such as:



Like Denim is being hateful to you. I don't think she is Jody. Can you apply any of the things you've talked about in this thread to your situation with Denim? ie: take responsibility for your feelings and perceptions rather than projecting these perceptions onto another. It's a very good opportunity to put it into practice.

yes, of course my perception is from my filter. everyone's is.

but sarah, let me say this. im very confused as to what the problem actually is on this issue. as such, i cant begin to work on fixing something if i dont know whats broke. i dont even know exactly where to begin with anyone i dont know from any personal type communications. total strangers coming up to me and saying something negative, its a bit confusing. . i am working on stating my feelings calmly without resorting to negative adjectives or such directed at another person. i also am working on stating this is where i stand, again calmly and respectively. good lessons to learn in everyday life. altho rare for this to be needed, at least in my life. usually strangers dont come up to me and say negative things about me! why would they? they dont know me. actually never had it happen...when i think about it.


would you rather i used dislike as the adjective? its semantics because this is just how i would talk in real..my kids say "dont hate" when something negative is said about someone. its a slang term of today's society./ i dont mean it as hate as such. why else would someone give over so much power to a total stranger? im quite confused over the whole thing.

me and you have had issues, yet we can talk pretty civil, i think. we are, after all, strangers to a large degree. i cant matter than much to you in the large scheme of things, ya know? some old lady in texas,,,lol...who really needs to change our lives over someone like that? or spend hours making sure you know how negative i think you are. what a waste of my time if i did that. when we dont see eye to eye, its like, ok, so what, move on.

so i will change it, just for you , to a word we both can live with.

dislike?

negative adjectives?

do you have some ideas? you have a good point here. however so you know, i am just using terms of today, nothing more.

i have no problem using a diff way to describe it if you can give me some ideas.

i dont see any accusation in my words. it was more a "sheesh, get over this and can we turn the page" type stuff. the way i talk to everyone in real...my slang...sorta a ....ummm..."damn this is getting repetitive to me, how many ways can one say one is not a good person, and why would it matter anyways"? i dont like wasting energy on repetitive things that get nowhere and on negative things.

when my daughter or son, someone says that about another, our term is to say "dont hate". like...in the 60's we said your tripping, man. did we mean someone is actually "tripping".? no, its slang for your not being nice or your twisted thinking now. not literal , exactly. descriptive. i will use "your not being real nice" from now on? hows that one sound?

btw, i take total responsibility for how i view words on here, and how i respond. im quite proud of where i am in handling this type of negative labeling. i am not acting out, i am not being mean back or calling names. pretty damn good for a old texas broad who has learned this recently in her life. course i have more to learn, always.



i do apologize for using slang, and not thinking to describe something better. i will try not to again, but i cant guarantee my slang wont pop in.

altho due to the content of the issues you spoke of, i do feel dislike towards me emanating from the conversations. i guess i cant see someone who likes someone saying things like that to them. do you see that in a diff light?