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I'd Ash slap you upside the head, but I don't think it will help, even if you do. I'm sorry your feeling bad, but is this really the way to feel better?

Yes, you can be sarcastic, so am I.

Yes, you can come across as unemotional when you're trying to offer solutions instead of hugs. So do I.

Yes, you are human and sometimes have to take a step away from things, including the board. I do too.

Guess i'm bad too.

Thank you Ellen.

I have gobs & gobs I could write but I won't. I'm done here.

Can an admin step in here please? I really want to know if Ash is faking for our own good, or if she is really in such bad shape? I don't want either to be true, so I'm hoping for some grey area here. :shock

I feel stunned.

Just yesterday I was thinking about the two pictures of flowers you posted Ash; one a pink daisy and one an equally beautiful, (especially to a desert rat like me), pink bloom of a desert cactus in the spring.

You pointed out that they both had differences about them, but were equally magnificent in their beauty and fragrance (the way flowers demonstrate love).

I'm paraphrasing a little, but you were making the point that your presentation style was more akin to the cactus bloom, but was no less caring or lovely (read loving and equally part of God's splendor and vision) = OK, so I'm paraphrasing again, but these were what YOUR words coupled with the images YOU chose to display said to me.

Do you think we all don't have a dark side that sometimes we believe, mistakenly in my judgment, is who we are; is at our core? I don't know of anyone other than the Lord himself that doesn't and have never heard of anyone either, so, of course, you aren't exempted from that, but, in reality, you must see that this is not so even though it may feel like it at certain times.

Feelings, while valid for what they are, aren't facts, right?

Those types of 'I'm bad' feelings, like guilt, can serve a limited purpose for prompting introspection (for possible course correction or whatever), but after that, they (those feelings and thoughts) really are self-flagelation/self-injury and serve no useful purpose, but are, indeed, very detrimental to ones' Soul/Spirit/authentic Self.

Why are you doing that? From what I've learned, most people self-injure to re-direct pain. ??

Since Jill is notorious for bringing her 'dead Mom by suicide' into the conversation at every turn, I won't skip this opportunity.

Did you know that for years (and sometimes still) I 'feel' as if I killed my Mother, (because I failed to save her that time, etc., etc.). Accordingly, I developed a very strong and real 'belief'/'feeling', (albeit false), that I was a truly 'bad person'.

Obviously, that's not true,

I used to hate her and, yes, have even wished she were dead. Very bad person,. right? Noooo. I'm human and I got angry underneath which was pain and fear.

Why are you different from me or anyone else in the universe who have their own or similar 'stories' = maybe not so dramatic; some maybe more, but EVERYONE is human and has thoughts at some point or the other (or maybe even patternistically, because of their background/experiences, etc., with which they could label themselves (and truly believe at the time) as 'bad to the core,' but few truly are.

In my own mind it is ludicrous for any rational person to believe that you are one of those rare few.

But what counts here is your feelings and beliefs about this.

Also, remember that it is an illusion to compare ones' insides (thoughts, feelngs, etc.) with someone elses' outsides, because there is no way to truly compare.

So, like, what the fuck, ((Ash))? [This is supposed to inject a moment of levity, but also relay sincere concern and a real question].

As ever,

J.

You thanked Ellen because she "took you up on your offer" in a way. Then you say you could write gobs and gobs, but you wont and you are taking your marbles and going home.

That's your choice; however, I find it disturbing to see you try to manipulate people into hurting you with words, reject the obvious devotion and friendship that has been reaching out to you, refusing to acknowledge it, and then after starting a drama, walking away from it as if you had nothing to do with it and the people here are failing you. (I'm saying this in a calm, concerned, but direct voice).

I don't think you are testing anybody here Ash because if you were, it would be quite an unhealthy way to go about it, using manipulation and stirring up people's emotions, getting people very worried about you. That would just be cruel and a lot of game playing. So, therefore, I'm going to believe that you really are angry and acting out right now. And that's fine. Just because you are the chief doesn't mean you don't have difficulties and struggles. That part is okay. The part that really isn't okay is that you are refusing to work through this---what you have preached to us all----to work through things. I think there is some confusion about what is upsetting you so much and maybe it is a lot of things all at once.

You are obviously upset right now. I agree with Calista that until you are willing to work through this, as you started to, it doesn't make sense to participate. It sort of feels like we are being held hostage in a twisted game. C'mon Ash.

Ash~

Gonna be blunt here:

WTF is going on?

Ash,

I for one did take this in humor, I think it's the way you communicated it, and it seemed so unlike you.

My fault for assuming.....

i havent responded because i was waiting to see if this was a serious post or as said by others, was Ash showing us all something? i still dont know. but i will say this. i agree it isnt a good way to show the board anything. i dont mean to minimize this thread by thinking it wasnt real...or be invalidating to your pain, Ash.

i dont want to say much because someone talking like this scares me to death. as Candle mentioned, it brings up too many memories of moms and suicide attempts and such. and how bad i must be to not "fix" the pain another is in. immediately that came to my mind. fix this somehow and take her pain away, or fail as a person.

trying to avoid that instinctive reaction, i will say im sorry you are in such pain, Ash. it is completely twisted thinking and very wrong that you--or anyone--would be a bad person. no one is all bad. esp not you, who has so much to offer and gives so much. i second the suggestion of seeing a pdr, checking meds, that stuff. this type of stuff is too like others i have seen that had a bad outlook. its scary.

yes, me and you dont get along well. so what? does it matter? no. do we have almost opposite views on life? yes. so what? whether we like each other or not matters not in the scheme of healing. do i think your bad? nope, never have. can i see faults you have? sure. we all have faults. again, so what? it makes us human. i like you better human, actually, altho im sorry for the pain it seems to have caused.

without this place, and every single person here (past, present and future) i would never have grown and learned so much. to have that offered to me free , no charge, is priceless. huge karma for you who built this place. YOU caused that. you built it. i learn far more from you and others i disagree with than the ones i agree with. somehow that seems to be how life is. we learn more from the pain that the pleasure. how boring if i was not challenged here. how unhelpful. i would be sitting in my mudhole, happy and ignorant to this day.

i hope you see the light at the end of the tunnel. i hope you know this meltdown will pass, and life will return again to a good place. it always does. and i wish you the best in your journey. and i hope you call someone for some help with this. asking for help isnt a failure.

why are you wanting to hurt yourself? rhetorical in case you dont want it out in public. why are you so angry at yourself? what is hurting you so much you want to self injure? its not worth it, hon. nothing is worth hurting ourselves over.

i could go on with the tools, and such, but you know them. just get them out and dust em off a bit, maybe? you always seem to have such high expectations of yourself. its ok to be human. to fuck up, damn, do i ever know that one. my middle name is fuck up...

as was sent to you by others, ((Ash)).

check out this thread as an explination.

http://www.bpdrecovery.com/modules.php? ... pic&t=8979

yeah, i saw that after i posted, kari. thanks! im still confused, so i cant really offer much more but good wishes on this for Ash.

im not in the know so i cant speak on what Ash posted on in that thread. i do know awhile back someone asked me something i never said, (i wont say who unless they choose to allow it) and was attributed to me, but we straightened it out and they wouldnt tell me where it came from. perhaps this is still going on....i dont know. i dont know where her pain came from or why it blew up like this. i dont even know what she is meaning about most of it, esp her being a bad person and such. i just wish she wouldnt think that, as its totally not true.

Ash,

I appreciate you showing your underbelly. I know it's not always an easy thing to do.

Right now, I don't have any negative feelings of you or your behavior. I won't share the highlights of our relationship as those are personal and not what you want to hear right now.

Please know you're in my thoughts and I wish you clarity during this time of personal turmoil.
___________________________________________________________

To the rest of the community...

I find it interesting that people here are wondering if Ash is testing the community or being impeccable with her word. If this were another community member, would you question his/her post or motivation for posting?

Ash said she didn't want to hear nicities. Yet people have posted the things they like best about her. Why are we not honoring her request?

Sure. I question everyone's motivation for posting. That, to me, is a necessary step in understanding the other. I think people were confused. That isn't a "normal" post by Ash.
quote="Nik"]
Ash said she didn't want to hear nicities. Yet people have posted the things they like best about her. Why are we not honoring her request?[/quote]

I don't think people knew what to do, and they did what they thought was best. I can't speak for anyone but myself, what I thought, and what I am speculating to be.

What, are you trying to make sure you stay on Ash's good side, Nik?

I know where I stand with Ash.

My question is sincere. I do wonder if people would react the same if it were someone else posting a thread like this one. Would people be able to honor the request and share the negative things or would it be filled with nicities.

We can continue this discussion if you'd like Aqua, but we should not hijack this thread to do so.

Well, I'm glad you reminded me, since "hijacking" a thread around here (to some) is the closest thing I can think of to assassinating the Pope (yes, I am taking this rare opportunity to say what I really think) lol.

Actually, I don't know where I stand with Ash. I'm myself. I'm neutral. I just do what I think is best for me. I'm not on either "side", or any "side", but I see problems all the way around the ship (with communications), and with myself of course, which is why I'm here in the first place.

I don't feel the need to start a new thread just to say that.... but if anyone needs to confirm to me a different rule than the one i go by, fine with me.

So, is it that you're tired of being held up to such incredibly high standards that now you just WANT to be the opposite for a bit? Sit on the lazy or sick side of the fence where you don't have to be strong, 100% accountable, 300% flawless? You feel like being a victim for a while?

You can try. I care about you and will not help you to self injure.

So many of us are here for you if you want to turn it around. You don't like the hugs, maybe you don't feel you deserve them. But it sounds to me like you need one (((Ash))).

When I posted, I couldn't put into words my reason for waiting. Now I've realized, it was, I think, not wanting to play into a desire for self injury. Thus I wanted a better idea where Ash was at before posting what I did.

And I think I'm not the only one who reads "I know that the only reason I'm posting in public is because this is my form of self-injury through passive means.", and thinks, no, I'm not going to help someone passively self-injure.

After her 2nd post, and knowing what I had to say, I was no longer concerned about that, as far as my own post, so I posted.

Wondering - do we ever ask you if you're "faking"? Would that be appropriate?

I don't find it surprising that Ash could have a meltdown. I don't find it surprising that ANY of us could have a meltdown. Just because someone appears to be "recovered" and have themselves mostly together does NOT mean that "everything" is fine. BPD doesn't just go away. LIFE doesn't just go away.

I don't usually want to post my meltdowns on here because I still want you guys to think I'm fine. I mean, why would anyone take my suggestions ever again if y'all knew how crazy I feel? Or else you'd think I was pretending because usually I'm "fine". It wouldn't be the first time people have accused me of "making up" how I feel...Those days or weeks or even months when I'm angry, depressed, afraid, paranoid. The worst of my BPD symptoms may be under control, but I CAN still think and feel that way. If that ever came flooding out? You guys wouldn't even recognize me...

Sorry, Ash. I just don't think you're a bad person. A little rough around the edges, sometimes, but that's about it. Yeah, I do get jealous that you're comfortable enough with yourself to tell people what you really think AND that you can usually pull it off in a civil (albeit blunt) way. I envy that...just don't have the self-control yet...

I'm sorry to see you struggling with this.

Nik asked, why are we not honoring Ash's request? speaking for me, i would never do that with anyone. no matter who asked. i would not list their faults, their problems nor would i judge them harshly,,like i would know the right things and they dont. haha. i barely know my own shit, much less anyone elses.

thats why i wont answer what Ash asked. i wouldnt with anyone. because it would be wrong.

it also would be a lie, as i dont think Ash or anyone is a bad person to the core. and i dont lie. too lazy to think up lies!

i would compromise myself if i answered Ash. i wont do that and i dont think it would help her at all. i wont intentionally hurt someone no matter what they ask.

as my daughter asked, "mom, please dont call 911. just let me die." HAHAAAHA. right. i looked right at her and dialed. oh, she hated me for that for quite awhile. well, tough. no one is dying on my shift.

nor am i helping hurt someone. not just Ash, but anyone.

I don't trust a single thing you say, Jody.

You spend all this time telling me you won't talk to me because of how scary I am but you're now telling me you've got nothing bad to say about me? How on earth can you possibly justify the two?

You're unbelieveable, Jody.

Jody: This is an important time to really use the tools and I believe you can do it.

Ash has expressed an opinion which she is entitled to. You have the power to react however you will, but then, hopefully, use HALT/the tools, take time for reflection, and then choose your response rather that be triggered into a spin.

It does not denigrate Ash or negate HER opinion to remind you that what Ash said is how she feels/what she thinks on this day and is what she believes is her truth. That does not make it your truth, my truth, or THE truth.

I urge you not to give your power away and to fight the 'fight or flight' reaction that one may naturally have whatever ones' childhood experience might have been.

If there is truth in it, take that and leave the rest. Please try not to globalize the snapshot of one statement on one day to something huge and devastating.

I've had meltdowns before (in private) when someone (not Ash) said things to me (or I learned of them; I can't remember which), and it is terribly difficult at that moment to apply the 'don't take things personally' agreement, for example, at those times, but this would be one of those times when it is the most important time to do just that.

do what? i dont follow you, candle. i missed a page, would you mind explaining what you mean? im not trying to invalidate ash or anyone. i have no fight or flight feeling. i have a confused, im lost feeling, but nothing more.

i think what i said combines fine. one, i am scared of you, Ash. thats no secret nor big news. its not anyones business why..unless i choose to share it and it is my problem, nothing to do with you.

second, why would i be mean to you or anyone? im not good enough to judge anyone. i dont usually judge anothers acts or behavior, i will try to show them a diff view maybe, but i am not one who knocks others. works fine to me. i wasnt directing it at you, for one, i was directing it at nik. and i would no way down you or anyone. why start now? i havent done it in what...all the years i been here.

Ash, you can not trust me all you want. thats your perogative and its fine. its mutual, which is no big deal to me at all. i hope it isnt to you either. i have never done a thing to you , except disagree with your views. which is a right we all have. i have not said a thing bad about you or to you. . so we disagree? so we are like oil and water in our personalities? again, i say so what? who cares? its not like we have to get along after nuclear war. lol. i dont usually ever think about it.

so i guess im quite lost here....?

how am i in a spin, candle? im actually quite collected and doing ok. i do not follow you at all.

actually, i was just replying to what nik asked, about why didnt people respond to what was asked. i said why i wouldnt...is all.

why are you so angry? at me? i mean, your view is me is fine but i dont understand the venom. there is no gray at all in your anger, and i think i will back away slowly from this and leave it to the rest to post in the threads.

candle, would you please either CC or begin a new thread to tell me what you mean? cause girl,. i have no idea. tyia*

actually, i did NOT say how scary you were, ash. i said i WAS SCARED of you. 2 very diff concepts. not the same thing at all. hear my words, please, no filters with them.

jody is lost..................totally.

Maybe it's kinda one of those perception things. Like, Ash, you find it more helpful to have someone be straight with you rather than trying to cheer you up by saying nice things. But to some people, maybe they think the opposite and that they are being mean to you by saying something they see to be negative and that they'd be helping you more to say nice things to make you feel better. ...i'm not sure if i'm being clear in what i'm trying to say. (It's 4.50am here!)

This is similar to something i'm trying to work on at the moment. I used to just say nice things because i was afraid of upsetting people and i wanted to encourage them. But then i realized that i was doing more harm to them by not being honest. So now i'm working on doing that but in a nice way.

Also, if someone has an image of you in their head, that they get from how they've been interacting with you etc, that might be different to how others see you, for example in real life. So if (for example again) i've only ever seen you doing good things and being a 'good person', then when you say you're bad that would conflict with the image i have of you. So i'd say "no you're not" and list the good things, which i guess may be seen as just being nice?

So i think that it isn't really people not honoring wishes on purpose, it's just different ways of seeing things.

Ash,

You're doing it again, getting distracted and side tracked by other people. If there's one thing this thread is telling me it's that you've not been self nurturing. I think you need a breather. Your work is ultra stressful as is often this place. I see you writing reems to others and often wonder where the hell you get the time.

Here's just a bit of a view at another perspective on the things you've described:

The car park thing: God Ash, whenever I'm stressed, upset or angry and behind the wheel of a car I hate everyone. I hate the old lady crossing the street at a snail's pace or the woman with a pram and 3 kids in tow who can't get her posse together to cross the road, holding me up from my desperately important life. I think "Get out of the road you stupid bitch!" and at the same time I'm also thinking "She's in a more difficult situation than you, have some compassion Sarah you selfish cow!". Yeah, being stressed, upset or angry brings this shit out in me. It makes me incredibly selfish.

That's how you sound. In fact the more I read about your life circumstances, especially your work, the more I think you're just trying to be superwoman and it can't last.

While you can come up with a heap of reasons to justify you calling yourself a bad person, I can come up with as many to show you're also a good person:

- You have created this whole site, this discussion board, provided these tools and put together a team of assistants to help people who suffer

- You wrote a whole bloody book AND got it published to help people who suffer

- You put in hours upon hours of your time writing things to help people on this board

- You have helped me immensely, both directly and indirectly

- You have directly expressed care for me and that it causes you pain to see me making repeated, self harming mistakes

- You show patience, compassion and understanding of all the people who are active members here

- You consider the impact of your words and the decisions made by the CL team on the entire board

- You consider how your words effect individuals

- Even in the midst of you trying so hard to convince yourself that you're a bad person, you still manage to consider how your actions effect your husband

- You love your husband

- You love your friends

- You love your dogs and provide them with a happy, healthy environment in which to live

- While you think bad things about people you do not behave badly towards them - you do not do things to harm others and while you're trying so hard to prove to yourself right now that you are bad you still will not bring yourself to harm another. You may feel like punching slow walkers in the back of the head but you don't.

Ash, those actions are the actions of a GOOD person. Everyone possesses good and bad. Everyone and anyone can compile a mountain of reasons to convince themselves they're a bad person, just as everyone can compile a list of reasons to show they're also a good person. Sure, you think some negative things about people - one could be mistake for thinking you're human. But you give enormously of yourself, way more than I could ever manage.

Do you know what a gift this site is to all of us posting here? Do you have any idea of how much this place has helped me, specifically? I think you do: you see the changes in people here. There was once a time when you wouldn't have let me anywhere near a CL status: you helped me to improve myself and be a happier, more stable, more trustworthy, more helpful person. I feel very protective of you bc this whole site and your book are so bloody altruistic and I see you copping crap from people for it all the time. It pains me right now to see you doing to yourself what I've seen countless others try to do over the years: bring you down. I also want to protect you from that and say "Hey back off! Joy is a loving, GIVING person - stop being so bloody awful to her!".

You can't control the pace we grow at. Maybe it makes you feel very disappointed (in your efforts) when you see people (like me) getting stuck on the same old problems. That's no reflection of you.

Slow it down, you've got nothing left to give right now. Save all of your energy for you bc there just isn't any point being a victim of self loathe - it just makes life miserable and it doesn't have to be that way. Right now you're making it that way.

_________________________

And whomever told Ash to "grow up", have some compassion for heavens sake and imagine how you would feel receiving that comment.

Ash

what do you mean when you say 'bad person'? do you mean 'evil'?