BPDRecovery.com: Forums

Note to others reading. I want to say why I replied to Ash (in that first thread) the way I did.

When I first read her post, gentle positive posts had already been made. I didn't have anything of benefit of that sort to add.

I thought about, what if I said all the criticisms I can think of to Ash. I thought about what that would be. I chose to wait. See what her response was to what already had been posted.

I did then choose to post the criticisms I could make. I had seen her comment about asking being a form of self-harm, and I didn't want to play into that, but I also knew that what I had to say wouldn't play into that. I couldn't rip her to shreds because I was frankly lacking in ammunition, and the criticisms I could make wouldn't serve that purpose.

I didn't know in what way posting what I did would help, or even if it would. I just knew that it was possible it might. And it wasn't any particular incovenience to do so. So I did.

It was, I think, a grey response. Because, seems to me, there's a positive in a criticism list that's only 2 items wrong, and those not terribly negative. It's saying that from where I stand, I don't see a lot of negatives. But also presenting the negatives, in case there might be value in hearing them.

And, then I added a comment that I guess was there as a validation that, yes, sometimes we, people, humans, feel that way. It's not something I personally understand. But I don't need to understand it to recognize that Ash isn't the first person to struggle with this.

Ash, I agree with what Kari spoke about - you being the "authority figure" here. I know I am in no way near my recovery, but in my own way, I try. But I AM scared of doing the wrong thing here, saying the wrong thing, and getting thrown out of BPDR. I am afraid of offending you. I don't believe you are a "bad" person, any more than any of the rest of us are. We all are human and are here BECAUSE we have problems. This isn't the Junior League - this is a place where we go because we want to recover from major problems in our lives. I am still learning how to navigate here. And one of my problems is seeing how one person can say or do one thing and "get away" with it, but another can't. But I'm afraid to speak up for fear of getting thrown off the board. So this issue is mine, I know it is. I have to learn to deal with it. And many of you have given me help here. It's just up to me to do it. But getting back to you, Ash, I guess for me is that fear of doing the wrong thing, and it ties in to you because to me, you ARE the authority figure.

I don't think this is a bad thing. It's just the way things are. I too think you are a little burned out and need to figure a way how to ease things up for yourself. I apologize if I in any way contributed to your bad feelings. You certainly are entitled to come here and vent, to let us know how you feel. Personally, I admire you and what you are doing. I don't put you on a pedestal, but I think you have one hell of a board here and I appreciate it. Those are my feelings.

Doesn't to me. Just says to me that you can't empathise, relate to, or feel compassion for anybody, because you have none for yourself.

BTW: If 99% of us are all stupid morons, why would you even bother to ask us for opinions? What would I know?

I've always felt safe here as far as, that I wouldn't get unfairly kicked off. I've always trusted Ash in that. Now, I know there is, and has been since I've been coming here, a leadership team that decides such things, on the rare times that such happens. Still, it was largely trusting Ash in particular.

And I have been unfairly, in my view, kicked off forums. So it's not that I naively think that such can't happen. But I don't have any concern that it will happen here, and never have.

Yeah I see what you're saying. I gave it power. I was immensely disappointed. I took it personally. That you wouldn't listen to something constructive that wasn't what you wanted and had asked for something which sounded quite different and self harming.

I guess I have my expectations to blame.



Because you asked us to harm you. And you made it sound like the community deserved the abuse bc they wanted to harm you anyway. And you wanted us all to harm you, even those of us who don't try, who don't all jump on you when you raise your own problems.



Yep, that's true. I just responded to the unhealthy way. I'm disappointed in myself that I didn't see more.



Well Ash I am so sorry I couldn't do better and see past that clutter. That's why I'm out of my depth. People asked what you were talking about and you didn't explain until now. I was trying to read tea leaves with you for heavens sake. I'm not a psychic or a psychologist, just someone trying to recover from BPD and trying to help people who go through some of the shit I have.



What's abusive is putting yourself out there for help and then not accepting the help you might get. Choosing what you need when we're/I'm doing my best to give that to you and then coming back with such a lack of appreciation.

I wanted to help you the way you have me.

And Ash, you simply are different. It's all over this site that you're recovered. It's your site. If my therapist came out with that stuff I imagine I'd have a similar reaction: "So everything you teach me applies to me, but not you." You aren't my therapist, but you're a mentor, a leader, yes a person, and I've tried to protect you. I've stuck up for you and done what you and your tools have taught me to do: separate out the parts. People have PMed me over the years with the stake aimed at you and I turned the focus away from you and onto them. Then you turn around and ask for it all to be turned on you. And when I try to help you reject it. I don't know what you need and to have respected your request IMO would have been anything BUT respectful of you or myself. I don't have criticisms of you Ash. Only what I write now.

You opened this up to us and then take it away to some private place where you can comment on how I'm feeling, or any of us. It isn't fair. Open up in public then deal in private whilst saying "You guys didn't give me what I wanted and I was hoping you could just see that when I asked for X I wanted Y". I hope you're getting what you want/need now. Next time (I hope there isn't one) you'll know who to ask.

Damnit! I don't really understand why I'm so upset about this, I'm bawling my bloody eyes out.

You scared me. I thought you were a rock. I new you were human, but a human rock. I know that shit's about me and has nothing to do with you and your behaviour and feelings. But it all makes me realise that I've been relying on someone I can't. It wasn't FAIR of you to ask us to hurt you Ash.

I know I'm taking it personally, but I want you to know how I feel.

Ash,
Something to think about is that you posted some things that left people concerned. It would have been concerning no matter who was the author of those posts. Then you have an onslaught of replies trying to comfort you and tell you "it's okay, you really are a good person." Most of those replies came from your community leaders. What you need to understand here I think is that because they are your "leaders" they naturally got concerned and came in to defend and dare I say "rescue" you. Basically they were doing their job. Isn't it fair to say that CLs try to hold it together to a degree so that they CAN be CLs? Isn't it true that they are essentially told that as CLs they have some responsibility to others here to not completely fall apart, but maybe realize they are examples? So when you broke that "rule" it was confusing and upsetting to them. They naturally wanted to come to your rescue. I can see why they might be peeved about it all.

The fact that you talk about being totally "recovered" to everbody and then occasionally show your true BPD issues only adds to the leader-queen-pedestal persona. I've seen your irritability, occasional loss of temper control, and even community melt downs where you blow up at the whole of us. So maybe you could adopt the thinking that you are, like the rest of us, on your own recovery continuum, not at the 100%, but not at 0% either. You still have your issues. So what?!

Something else that stands out is that you said that when you post the entire community throws everything at you, like an onslaught. When you post and invite the community to reply, you are inviting it. I don't remember people getting together in droves to bring you down. Because you are the administrator here, you are bound to get different replies than maybe I would, so again, you might not want to be on that pedestal, so get off it, but remember this is still your site and people are going to respond to that. They might all complain about something, somebody, or you. You can take some responsibility for this because you tend to every once in a while address the ENTIRE community at once. When you do that, what more can you expect bu the ENTIRE community to respond? I've seen you post in the past when it was you working on you and you received responses, yet not from the ENTIRE community.

Maybe this can be used as a contructive example that even though we can be a functioning recovering person, we are still vulnerable to meltdowns. Ash, maybe in time you can look at this as an example that some of us who don't seem to be making much progress really are and that BPD and all that goes with it can still rear its head and take over from time to time. It doesn't mean we NEVER made progress. It doesn't mean we don't work on ourselves. It doesn't mean you have to decide you have NO MORE PATIENCE for this or that type of behavior. Maybe you can look at this as a lesson that instead of judging so much you can have compassion for people going through difficult periods without deciding they aren't getting it, yet realize that you too are the same and one of us and will have your own personal setbacks and your own personal difficulties wil come back at times too, such as the irritability, the anger, the explosive blow ups, the dislike of people, and the impatience with what seems like slow recovery in other people.

Again, looking at the big picture, you now are what you seem to want----ONE OF US, accept it, get on with it, and ask for what you need directly.

Ash,

I agree with some of the concerns that Sarah expressed although I'm not going to swear, I promise.

I honestly didn't see "open season on Ash" in the replies you got to your thread. I saw people trying to help and apply the tools in just the same way they would to any other poster. Those were certainly my intentions. I can't know what anyone else's were, of course, but I really didn't see a difference between the replies you got and the replies someone else would get in the same situation. I wonder if you're having a hard time viewing this objectively because it's so close to the bone.

Since you're looking for constructive criticism, there's one thing I have to offer. I know that as leader of this community, you may be put on a pedestal by some members who expect you to be perfect. I'm not denying that happens. But I'm also concerned that you do it to yourself. I suspect that you fear coming across as anything other than 100% healthy and recovered, lest people attack you or conclude that the BPDR tools don't work or something. And I know that some people will and do do those things (I think it comes with the territory) but I also think that at times you're perhaps oversensitive to it and make assumptions or see it when it's not really there. I also think this fear might lead to you not addressing certain issues on the board, and then they build up inside you until you can't take it any more and explode.

I could be way off base with this, but that's my perspective, and I thought it was worth sharing.

And by the way, I think you're an inspirational person who does a great job of running this place. It's not an easy job, and not one I envy. I hope you didn't skip this bit of my post (however uncomfortable it might make you feel) because looking at both sides of the argument is one of the best ways of dealing with twisted thinking, as I'm sure you know.

Marga.

I for one think of Ash as a leader as well as a peer. I do not pedestalize her, but I do accept that she is further along in recovery than I am, and that she has more information and practice than I have. I believe she has good intentions and that she does her best to set the example here. I believe that if anyone is thinking of Ash as pedestalized, that is within themselves to believe that. And if anyone does any pedestalizing, that is a problem for them to deal with. I see what C2L describes as a leader-queen persona as someone who is doing their best to set an example.

I know tons of people who "meltdown" that are absent from pd's. It's no big shocker to me. Even recovered, there will still be present tendencies from one's background (and from the presence of bpd previously) that will show themselves during times of stress. It doesn't mean there is the presence of a pd.

Even if one comes from a great childhood, was taught all the right things, and does their best to become self-actualized and seek moral excellence, at 37 (or 8 or how ever old ash is lol), the rock isn't completely and utterly solid, from my experiences. How old was Yoda?

Shit, my bf is normal and solid a person as I have ever seen, and I can still drive him to the brink of insanity on occasion. People are human.

Trained and studied counsellors and therapists who have never had bpd or any other pd have problems with us. Somehow, it seems like a lot of people run rampant on the site screaming this problem and that problem and getting tons of advice and suggestions, but if Ash shows a bit of having a problem herself, it's the end of the world.

I personally can identify with Sarah in being disappointed that her dream isn't true, but it's simply not realistic. And I'm very sorry you are hurt.

C2L,

You said this -
"Again, looking at the big picture, you now are what you seem to want----ONE OF US, accept it, get on with it, and ask for what you need directly."

My response is:
I don't agree that I am one of anything. I am a unique individual who happens to be recovering from bpd. And no one can put me there as "one of us" but me. I know you directed that at Ash, but I am assuming "one of us" means someone who suffers or is recovering from bpd, and perhaps I don't want to affiliate myself to a group, and neither does she. I also see that Ash DID ask directly for what she needed.

This isn't directed specifically to C2L:

It's funny to me how when Ash is down, that a lot of people come along and take advantage of that by trying to bring her down further. I know I took advantage of the situation myself to say what I thought (although she asked, I'm not so sure we should've told her what we thought, because that seems like she was looking for a beating, and I don't want to indulge in giving her one). I see this whole process as being dysfunctional. I believe if we have a problem or want to be heard, we should address it when the problem occurs, and not save it up for later, and then come blasting in with bells on.

I for one did not take anything she said personally, nor did I think it right to point out any mistakes she made in thought at the time. Ranting doesn't usually result in organized thought.

C2L,

I'm not sure exactly what you are fighting against, C2L, because I've never seen Ash claim to be inhuman or invulnerable to meltdowns. ??? nor have I ever seen her claim to never have had bpd. Why exactly is it so important for you to take her off the pedestal you see her on and make her "one of us"? It sounds like you are trying to notch her down. But her being there in the first place is all in the mind.

Ash is a woman who has recovered from bpd and who has written a book and hosts a website for people recovering from bpd. That's the reality of the situation. Everything else is simply how one chooses to view it.

I know this post is kindof mucky, but I don't want to clean it up right now, so here it is. Yes, I admit to being lazy at times.

This is good. I was trying to word it correctly myself (and did type some and delete it several times), but looks like you did it.

I think also that to avoid being attacked that Ash tries to be on her best behavior. Must be a tough job.

Aqua,
Excuse me, but if you don't want to affiliate yourself with a group, why on earth are you here? Guess what? You ARE part of this group. You have openly admitted you have BPD. You are making no sense here. I think you are, once again, just arguing to argue and once again trying to feel superior by saying you aren't really part of this group.

And the only reason there are diagnoses anyway are so that the treatment teams can have some direction on how to treat a person. Pretty much that's it. Of course everybody is unique, yet if people can't be put into a "group" there would be no help and all those books would mean nothing and Ash's book would mean nothing.



Aqua, quit the ass-kissing. Ash was down and I saw a LOT of people trying to support her by telling her she was not a bad person. Where were you? It is your choice and opinion about what people should or should not have said to her. You have no right to tell other people how to respond. I did not see people blasting Ash with bells on.


Aqua, I have to say straight out, you are a hypocrite. When I had a post when I wasn't doing well, you thought it very approprite to tell me I was having a pitty party and I was not making enough progress and then you went ahead and started a NEW thread on people who do not make enough progress here and how they should be called out on it. Now, because it is Ash, you are changing your tune. I don't see any consistency here at all in your thinking and opinions.


I was not FIGHTING against anything until NOW Aqua. Stop telling me what I am thinking please.


I didn't say she claimed to NEVER HAVE BPD. Again, you are telling me what I think. Please stop that. Ash has said she was recovered. I was making a point about how we all grow if we work on it and get much much better, and sometimes it doesn't look as if there is any BPD left, yet we can still be vulnerable during times of stress to dealing with situations in a dysfunctional or unhealthy way or to see ourselves as all bad.


I am NOT trying to notch her down. I think she does not WANT to be on that pedestal. I think she said she wants people to understand she is like us, human, with frailties, and wants to be treated as an equal.


If you would have been paying attention for the past however many years you have been here, you might know Ash a little better. I feel I know a little more about her than just the few facts you have listed above. I think life is a little more complicated than that Aqua.

I never posted on this subject to injure anybody or mud sling. I posted in a way that I thought would be the most helpful to Ash. I chose not to tell her what a wonderful person she is or how much I respect her or reassure her. And she didn't read some of those posts that were simply reassuring. I'm not sure if my posts were helpful or not, but they were meant to be. I posted in a way that I thought could be through-provoking and introspective for her. I tried to be as honest as I could be, as she has been with me in the past. Ash spend a lot of time at different times conversing with me and although at times it was difficult, I appreciated her honesty and in the end found it helpful. If Ash thinks I'm being rude, she can and probably will tell me herself.

Aqua, once again, you and I do NOT see things similarly. You jump on me whenever you get the chance, put me down for not being as recovered as you think I should be, put me down for being self pittying, and then try to rally up people in the community to join in on how certain people should just leave if they aren't recovered enough. Why don't you worry about working on Aqua and leave it at that? You have enough work to do on yourself. I thought we had agreed to stay away from each other. If you have anything else to say to me, why don't we take it to Convo Corner.

C2L,

How do you feel right now? Because it seems as if your responses are heated, and I don't think it would be wise for me to respond to you. Do you think it would've been best for you to take a break before posting?

OK Ash~

Constructive criticism is an oxymoron.

Do you want some "suggestions", perhaps?

I agree with C2L and Trinity. And like Sarah, I am a bit angry that you just glossed over the Pollyanna posts.

In mine, I asked you if you need to do some Untwisting. Because, I think you do. I observed you overreacting, doing some black and white thinking, AND THESE:



You rejected the Positive Responses. Your mental filter was set to, "I am a BAD person."

Ash, me thinks you still have some Untwisting to Do.

A couple of things I've noticed that you do with ME (and yes, others):

You lump me in with someone else and then overreact to what I am saying. For instance, you tied me to child molesters in one thread where I had said NOT ONE THING about them; someone else had. Yet you targeted ME. Not cool.

You TELL ME what my logic is when you are so off the mark! You don't ask me for clarification, you just TELL ME what my logic is. I believe that you are projecting YOUR STUFF onto me when you do that.

One more: you get impatient with someone because they are not where YOU THINK they should be. It reminds me of training someone on a computer program I know really, really well. I've forgotten that the key strokes; knowing where to go; what buttons do what are so completely new and foreign to the person that I am training that I go way too fast. And, yeah, it does bug me a bit when I have to slooooowwww way down and start at "A". I want the person to be at "M", but they just aren't. Do you understand my analogy?

(Not yelling, just emphasizing with the caps.)

To enable another to self abuse is not healthy. For you to ask us as a whole to do that to you is not healthy.

Ash, I believe you've had a serious set back here. That is my honest opinion. I think it is time that you see your T and re-evaluate your meds. You fell on your butt but now it is time to pull yourself back up, dust yourself off and going forward again.

Aqua, again, please don't address me or interact with me.

I want to take two minutes to say:

I haven't abandoned this topic.

I will circle back around to address outstanding issues and/or concerns.

Yes, I have been posting on other topics. I need to distract myself at certain points - to get out of my own head, to allow some of my stuff to percolate before responding to on-topic stuff, etc. Additionally, some of the off-topic stuff is quicker/easier to respond to whereas on-topic stuff requires more in-depth focus, concentration, research, etc. and if I have 5 mins to be here before the next phone call, I still want to contribute.

Non-response to specific people should not be construed as "Ash thinks they're morons." It should be construed as "Ash has not addressed that yet."

Hope that helps somewhat ...

In between waiting for reports to produce, answering client questions, etc., I came up with this:
<hr>
Since I'm not able to see the light at the end of the proverbial tunnel just yet (meaning I don't see anything on my calendar for a while that would allow me to sit down and write out however-many individual responses to all the items, issues and concerns raised to everyone who participated, I wanted to copy/paste in some of the things I've said elsewhere - on the board & off - that may help some folks during the interim, until I'm able to park myself in front of BPDR and devote however-many-hours it will take to get through all of this. (There's only one of me!)
<hr>
I am a human being with flaws.

I fuck up from time to time.

I do not think I am perfect, even though sometimes I wish I could be.

I have shortcomings and bad points, probably more than most.

I am quick to anger.

I have unreasonably high expectations of myself and sometimes of others. I (along with every other person on the planet) tend to project my thoughts, feelins and beliefs onto other people.

I am impatient, with myself and others.

I am judgmental, sometimes my judgments are incorrect and sometimes my judgments morph over time.

I am the first to admit I sometimes lose sight of my own stuff when I'm focused on someone else's stuff.

I also know that I accidentally triggered more than a few people. I know that people see "recovered = perfect" and seeing imperfections freaks them out. I know that people are angry with me - and I think you're one of those people - for my meltdown. I know that I wasn't overly-concerned with the consequences of my actions, that I was self-centered and solely focused on relieving the internal strain without regard to how that would impact those around me.

I know that people are angry with me for not being able to read, focus on or absorb the nice things that were posted. I know that they see it as a personal rejection of them and their contributions and their feelings. I understand how that dismissiveness can be a huge trigger. (If only I could get people to see that I'm setting aside the good stuff until *I* am able to focus on them and it's not a dismissal of the person themselves, their intentions, their heartfelt wishes, etc.)

I also know that in the middle of a meltdown and even working through that meltdown, there are only so many things that can be focused on, acknowledged, absorbed, learned and that everything happens at precisely the time it's supposed to happen, when it's ready to happen. I was too blunt, not delicate enough in expressing "I'm not ready to focus on that yet" and it has freaked people out. Luckily, I think, I'm not taking the resulting "omg, I hate you, you fucking bitch" outbursts personally. I do understand the cause-and-effect relationship and I don't begrudge anyone their outbursts.

The thing is - the introspection piece is always there. I think it's part of my hyper-critical component - is this right, is this good, am I doing okay - that I never stop looking within. Maybe that's also part of the root of some of the NPD stuff - constantly looking at myself!

Anyway, I tend to short-hand stuff, I know that. Because I don't often discuss my own stuff on the board, I think most folks figure "If I can't see it, it doesn't exist." I don't blame them one bit - I'd be leery too.

I feel like "I've said all that stuff (up there^) before, countless times and in countless ways so I don't understand how it is people can believe I don't introspect, don't look at myself, don't accept responsibility." I guess to some degree it might be because there's not an immediacy to it. I get slammed with a boatload of stuff, take some time to process and reach conclusions that may not be shared until much later under completely different circumstances. Maybe that leaves people with the impression that I steamroll and discard all objections, concerns, qualms that get raised because I don't state at that time or open a specific thread to provide closure on the subject.

I don't know that I'm going to change on that front.

As for a closer understanding of what's feasible during meltdown mode, yeah, maybe I do have a better, bird's eye view of it now than I did two weeks or two months ago. After all, my meltdowns (I'd like to think) are few & far between so it's easy for the key aspects of "here's what most people can handle during a meltdown" to get lost in the shuffle, relegated to the bottom of the pile, get a little blurry / lose the sharp edges.

By the same token though, while some may argue & say I beat on them like a jackhammer during their own meltdowns, I still hold to the idea/impression that when someone says "That's enough / time out / can I come back to this" I most certainly honor the request. I think I was saying "can't look at that now, please honor that" (in a way) and I don't think it was being honored. I dunno.

I posted in the area where I knew the people who see me as the worst would be able to respond.
I posted and I'm sure that it seemed very out-of-the-blue. I did see the questions and such; I just didn't have the ability at that time to focus on them, get into the why's & wherefore's. I could barely function all weekend. I was on the verge of tears nearly the entire time. My husband was kind of freaked out too, btw.

Before I give up the ghost on this stuff, I will come back and re-read everything that everyone posted.
I'm sorry you're angry and upset and confused too. I will get to it, I promise. There's only so many hours in a day. I will, as always, do my best - even if that "best" sucks comparatively speaking.

I have not abandoned the topic. If that is the impression from your side, I can assure you it's not the case from this side of the keyboard. When I have the ability to devote seventeen hours to reviewing and responding to every post made, I will do so. In the meantime, I'm doing the best I can to keep my head above water, process my own stuff internally, to reach a place where I'll be able to focus on helping other people work through their stuff (which was raised/stirred by my own). I'm also working a full-time job and taking three college classes which also require my participation and time. I'm not throwing these things out as excuses for anything. I'm sharing with you what other factors are influencing my ability to sit down, focus, concentrate, discuss and help others right now.

I really do see the "when will you respond to my posts" as "helping others" because it's a form of "When will you talk to me about my stuff" because the focus is for them and on their issues rather than mine. And that's perfectly fine! I'm not expecting people NOT to have stuff. Right now, I'm doing the best I can to get through MY stuff and when I'm able to, I will come back and try to help you sort through why you were so upset, why you're still upset with me, etc.
<hr>
I know there's a lot going on and I know not all things may be read by all people so hopefully pulling it all together in one spot will help over the short-term somewhat.

I dunno if I'm welcome here, or if I'm welcome to post to you, Ash, but I wanted to offer you something that I figured out just recently.

Self-introspection is a wonderful thing. It allows us to grow as people, to see our faults (and our strengths) and adjust our attitudes and lives accordingly.

I've found that there's a very, very thin line between self-introspection and self-flagellation, though. And when introspection crosses that line, it becomes very hindering and damaging, rather than helpful.



This sounds, to me, less like introspection and more like second-guessing, which I've discovered, at least for me, to be a stepping-stone to flagellation. I'm not sure how well I can explain it, but I'll try: In my relationship with my fiance, I always try to do my best and do the right thing by him. When we first started dating, I was almost paralyzed with the, "Am I doing this right?" thoughts. I was ALWAYS second-guessing myself, and it showed. It caused a lot of tension between the two of us.

I discovered that, as I stopped second-guessing, things got better. As I learned to just do what I felt was best, the tension eased. There are times when I screw up, of course. And maybe "Is this the right thing?" would have stopped those screw ups. But rather than second-guessing myself before the fact, I've forced myself to look back at mistakes as they happen. It's a lot easier to correct something you KNOW is a mistake than something that could be but you're not sure about.

Does that make sense?

I appreciate your posts Ash. Thank you.

Also, appreciating your post Ash and was wondering if it was ok for me or anybody else here to discuss our reactions to what happened here? Or would it viewed as pot-stirring?

Take as long as you need, Ash. There's a lot in this thread so it makes sense to wait until you can give it plenty of time and your undivided attention.

I didn't realise until I read one of your CC posts that you were having insurance problems. I just read your journal but I'm not clear whether you've had to stop taking the Wellbutrin, or if you're still managing to get it for the time being? Obviously if you've had to come off your psych meds that can have a huge impact on your mood, but either way I can imagine all that stress would get to you. Wishing you good luck and strength in sorting it all out!

Marga.

I think that discussing and exploring one's own reactions (within the guidelines, self-focus, ROE, etc.) is exactly what this place is all about.

My husband has decided to go out of town this weekend so I anticipate having time to devote to re-reading (or in some cases reading), sorting, responding to this thread and the other. I'm not entirely sure yet how that will look. As has been pointed out, there's a lot of material. Things could become ungainly in fairly short order but I'll do my best.