BPDRecovery.com: Forums

This thread is about me as a person, my views, my thoughts, my feelings, my struggles. I am not necessarily representing the Senior Community Leadership Team. While I am (obviously) part of the S/CL Team, this is not an official indictment of anyone. This is me explaining my frustrations, my meltdown and the thoughts & feelings I've had surrounding these things.

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Yes, I really do think there's something inherently fundamentally wrong with me as a human being. This is not a test - good lord, what kind of monster do you take me for? And honestly, I'm getting a bemused chuckle out of the idea that my pain, confusion and anger is all about you people, that I would make this all about you guys, to teach you a lesson of some sort. Sheesh, talk about borderline thinking.

"As the flea said to the elephant after making love, 'I hope I didn't hurt you.'"

No, this is really just me and the failings I'm seeing in myself. I'm getting closer to accepting the rotten person I really am and things are settling down a bit for me. I still feel like crap physically and I can't tell which came first - the chicken or the egg - the physical symptoms or the inner turmoil. But at least acceptance is helping calm the turmoil.

I could post a giant list of all the ways in which I'm a despicable human being but history has shown that ya'll will focus on "proving me wrong" (which will just piss me off) instead of working with me to accept that my self-image the past few years has been hideously off-base.

Suffice it to say that the feelings and thoughts that have come up for me over the past few days worth of drama - and yes, there has been drama, more on that later - have prompted me to really examine who I am and why I am the way I am. You know that person you look at with compassion and pity, thinking "Wow, it must really suck to be them" - that's who I am. I'm that miserable person, never happy with anything, never nice to anyone, cruel, callous and dismissive. Easy to anger, friendless, a hermit.

I'm honestly tired of the drama and in-fighting. I'm tired of coddling people who just don't get it and seem like they never will. I know - it seems like I kiss-ass to a few people that in your estimation just don't get it and never will. You may not understand the differences as to why them and not you and that's fine. You can call me all sorts of names, denigrate and abuse me (in private or public) - whatever floats your boat. [For anyone truly interested, some of it is personal preference, some of it is attitude, action and intention from the person, some of it is (as Ellen pointed out) over-identification.]

I'm tired of the expectations ya'll seem to have that I be perfect. I really don't want to hear "oh but we don't expect you to be perfect, we know you're human" because it's a load of horse-shit, to be honest. You (in the general sense and in some cases specific individuals) sure as shit do expect me to be 100% perfect 100% of the time - to call this person on this thing, to do that in that situation, to apply all rules uniformly at all times, to live perfectly without ever tripping up myself. God forbid I actually do screw up, there's fifteen of yiz stamping all over each other trying to get to me first to rub my face in it.

If it were in helpful manner, a compassionate manner, a palatable civilized approach - "hey, I noticed this, what do you think?" - instead of a lynch mob, I might be more open to constructive criticism. What I get instead is a bunch of people gossiping off-board about what a raving bitch I am, what a two-faced loser I am for not doing this or that just-so. Once everyone in that particular coalition gets riled up all good and frothy, then the onslaught begins.

And I'm not the only one ya'll do it to either. This group bitches about that person; that person's group bitches about the other group - and so on and so on. No actual communication ever really happens and it just pisses me off. I'm sick of the off-board gossip. I'm sick of the coalitions. I'm sick of the bullshit.

Don't get me wrong - I know that the bullshit comes with the territory around here. At least once a month, someone comments that their T is surprised this place works as well as it does. The reason for the surprise is because, let's face it, there's a bunch of people with Borderline (and borderline-related issues) running around here! I don't begrudge the bullshit in and of itself. I just get tired of seeing the same old people stirring the same old shit pots month after month, the same old people moaning about the same old things week after week.

This meltdown of mine took ya'll by surprise, I know. And some of you probably still don't believe it's real but whatever. At least my meltdown is new territory. The precipitating factors aren't new (bothered by the shenanigans and drama and in-fighting around here) but the internal crisis is a new area for me, previously unexplored. There comes a time, people, when "Shit or get off the pot!" becomes most appropriate.

I know - I'm one scary bitch. I frighten people. I'm mean to people. Not just here either. That's the core of my dilemma at present. I need to work on letting go of the expectations that people will behave in rational, considerate, appropriate, mature ways. I need to give up on humanity ever changing for the better.

Just today, I've got a half-dozen instances where I've shown the world what a miserable person I am. Some of you have seen it and have tried calling out "The emperor has no clothes" and I've disregarded you, argued with you, laughed at you but today I say "You were right."

I said "more on the drama later" so here it is.

There is a small handful of community members who've been here quite some time who, IMO, are abusing this place and taking the rest of us along for the ride. These folks have taken the ROE and distorted it into something so foreign as to be completely unrecognizable. They've taken the guideline about courtesy and respect toward others and they're certainly pleasant and civil on the board, that's for sure. So what's wrong with that? The problem with that is that two seconds later, they're in PM or email or wherever bitching about so-and-so, griping about what s/he said, laughing maliciously about what s/he did.

Sure, you've been nice and pleasant on the board, in public, but your private bitch-sessions are causing massive harm to the community. You're infecting others with your negativity. Instead of learning on ways to deal with the negative thoughts and feelings in a productive, healthy, mature way, you put on a happy face and then flee the room to scream, throw things, have a temper tantrum.

That negativity has been spreading as coalitions have been built. This one always sticks up for that one, that one always uses the same phrases as the other one. It's terribly obvious - if you're paying attention. [More power to you if you're not paying attention! Seriously.]

These people are so damn focused on what the S/CL team is doing or not doing, on what other people are doing, what they're saying, how they're saying it, when they're saying it that they seem to have completely lost focus on the primary reason they're supposedly here: themselves.

Sure, they can talk a good game about "exploring this to help me better understand myself" but after a few months of that, the reason has become an excuse - and a transparent one at that. You're bitching about someone else not because you're trying to understand anything - you just want to bitch and you've become a pro at finding ways to distort the Tools to justify that bitching. You've mastered the art of weaponizing the Tools and I'm just plain tired of it. Your welcome is wearing thin.

You (in the general sense) may be absolutely right that the S/CL team here:

- doesn't apply all the rules to all the people in all the situations (black & white thinking, folks)

- that we sometimes miss things or outright screw up (we're human, folks)

- that some people "get away with" more than others (life's tough, deal with it)

But it sure seems like some of you have gotten to a point where you are expecting way more out of us as people and this place as an online community for peer support than it's capable of giving you. BPDR is not going to be Mental Health Nirvana with all the right answers for everyone. BPDR is not going to provide everyone who shows up with spiritual enlightenment. Ya'll need to take me, the rest of the S/CLs and the whole of BPDR off the damn pedestal already.

Stop expecting us to fix your problems for you.

Stop expecting us to intercede in every little tiff, squabble or misunderstanding.

Stop expecting us to fight your battles for you.

Stop expecting us to be squishy and huggy and sunshine and rainbows cuz, I'll tell you right now, I'm just never going to be that person. I'm a hard-ass, a miserable SOB and I will most definitely rub you the wrong way, sometimes if not all the time.

Stop expecting me to change. Stop expecting BPDR to change. Just stop already!

I have spent the last few days/weeks fighting an internal battle. Ya'll are expecting so many things that I'm just not capable of doing or being and I've been trying like the dickens to bend over backwards to accommodate ya'll, to talk ya'll through your distortions, to walk you through your gripes and complaints, to help you reach a place of understanding in the kindest, most gentle way possible. But dammit, that's not me!

It's been tearing me up inside - trying to come up with ways to be civilized and polite and gentle when what I really want to do (because I'm this bad, miserable person) is bitchslap a few folks and show them the door for a good long while because they're obviously not getting it, have no intention of trying to get it and are sucking the life out of the board in the process.

I haven't spoken to anyone on the S/CL Team about any of what I'm posting here and now. I have stepped out of the S/CL discussions at this point because I have nothing of merit to offer other than "kick 'em out already, enough is enough" -- another example of my badness.

I used to think of myself as a Pollyanna and the standing joke used to be that not only would you get a 2nd chance with me, you'd likely get your 222nd chance as well. Tell ya what - some of yiz have reached the 500th mark and you can stick a fork in me because I am just DONE.

I would much rather spend my energies on people who are genuinely interested in learning, growing, changing -- not those who give good lip service in public but then spew poisonous gossip in private.

If you really want to know if you are someone I'm speaking about as part of the troublesome handful, ask me directly in here and I will not only tell you "yes" if you are but also why. I'm tired of the covert secrets. I'm tired of walking on eggshells so I don't accidentally piss someone off. I'm tired of caring what you think of me, afraid that my "good person" reputation will be tarnished. I've finally gotten to the place where I'm ready to accept that I'm not a good person and I really just don't give a crap anymore if people think I'm scary, mean, evil, nasty, a failure, a fraud, whatever.

So there you have it ... the gobs and gobs. Be very careful what you wish for. You might just get it.
:drama :ndz

:clap

I would prefer to know what you really think about me than to be fed sugar-coated messages that are not entirely honest. I have the same belief as you, that I am a bad person who does good things when I work at it as opposed to being a good person who does bad things on occasion simply because I am human. I am also painfully aware that I mess up and in many ways I am messed up. I appreciate being told the truth because I would rather know what is real than to believe in lies. If you have responded to me in ways that are not true to yourself, I want to know.

If I have done anything to create drama or conflict, I want to know about it so I can work on improving my ability to relate to other people in more effective ways. I know that I have a hard time being kind when I don't believe that kindness is the right approach. I find merit in the "bitch-slap" because sometimes that is what it takes for me to see something I resist looking at in myself.

Wow Ash, i didn't realise things were that bad here. I've seen people refer in threads to the gossiping etc in pms and things but i've never experienced it.




If you were really a bad person, maybe you'd be doing those things. But you're not. You're civilized and polite! So that shows you're good!

I hope you feel better soon. And what you do here is amazing

What came to my mind as I read your post, Ash, is that there has been a lack of self-care boundaries on your part. You have tried to be too many things for too many people for too long and you're sucked dry. One way to prevent this in the future might be to delegate more authority to the CLs and to take regular, scheduled breaks from the board. Perhaps you, as the board leader who is the target of so much projection and transference, shouldn't even receive PMs from those of us who are not CLs...perhaps PMs should always have to go through the CLs. I think you need a layer of protection that you just haven't had.

Here is what I'm seeing, tho of course I could be wrong:

You're angry because something you love (BPDR) is being threatened and you feel your hands are tied.

You can't find a way to unload that anger in a positive way - it's seeping out at the seams at work, at home, here, etc - so you're turning it back in on yourself with this gut-wrenching self-hatred, while wanting so desperately to put the anger where it belongs: on those who are messing with something you hold dear.

You're questioning your "goodness" because of other people's "badness", for whatever reason you're doing so (habit, conscientiousness, being rational in an emotional environment).

You're a mama bear whose cubs are being stalked by a pack of clever wolves. You're spoiling for a fight - a good honest fight - rather than having to play by rules you created and that you believe in and honor, while the "other guy" doesn't have to (sneaking around behind the scenes, only pretending to uphold the ROE).

I know it doesn't help you, but I'm glad I'm not in a position of power and responsibility. I couldn't handle it. You have to try to be fair, but not a pushover. You have to try to be wise, but not arrogant. You have to try to understand, but not enable. You have to try try try all the time, and still people misinterpret your motives and take out their BPD-fueled twisted thinking on you. I couldn't do it. I wouldn't want to, frankly. It's a heavy burden.

Sometimes it's tiring to be around borderline behavior, no pulling punches. All the fucking drama. I have the luxury of leaving BPDR when it gets annoying. At times, I don't want to help anymore because it's not doing any good (though most people ARE trying really hard here and are getting healthy in their recovery efforts). I don't have to help, I have no obligation to help. You do. This is your baby. And you also CARE, you also WANT to help. But, Ash, sometimes people don't want to be helped. They don't think they need it. They won't see it even if it's offered straight up. So save your energy for those who do see it and want it and use it properly.

lol, I couldn't care less if you thought I was part of the troublesome handful (tho I believe you don't). I know I'm not. I've done my best.

Haven't you, too?

Yea, I have to admit to doing this shit right after I got here (feeling out of place and not knowing any better). It has been months, possibly years, since I have sent anything but understanding or friendly pms. That was my point about drawing a boundary - it's not that hard to get out of it, if you want out. The problem is that people want to play with the people who do it and then expect no consequences, when they've proven who they are by doing it in the first place. If you play, you pay. And I feel like saying, "Don't come running to me when things go astray." You can't play around and break rules (and pretend to be going by the Four Agreements) and then expect at the end of the day to not get bitten by the people breaking them. It's one thing to not understand and get bitten, another totally to be pretending to go by the rules when you aren't. Which was my point on not fooling anyone - I noticed a while back people taking on the opinions of others and it was pretty obvious they were pm'ing one another (as I also admit to doing when I was weaker and needed support, but had no way of knowing how to get it, although I never took on the opinions or thoughts of others, I did pm when I was feeling upset and talk about another member who is no longer with us). So it's kindof hard for me to have a lot of compassion for someone when they are engaging in this sort of bs, then come running to the CL's to fix things when things go astray. What are you, two years old? (And I realize the hypocrisy in the fact that I once did this shit myself). I have been way too nice myself, and haven't even begun to say 1/100th of what I actually WANTED to say....(yes, I can and do bite my tongue here on a daily basis).

I also did notice but never mentioned your preferences for certain members and that they seemed to be given preferential treatment. I didn't think that was right either, although I never mentioned it. I figured 1) You are a recovered borderline, although you are no longer a borderline, that doesn't mean your background isn't part of your identity, and that you continue to have certain tendencies in that way, 2) You identified better with the certain people you were preferring (it seemed to be certain types of personalities - especially people that seem to be in miserable situations - I don't know if it might bring out the codependent or what), and I learned to accept that and the way things were. I got past the part a while back of thinking you shouldn't be human.

Instead of trying to change anything, I just learned to work within the arena I was given. I figured if I mentioned anything, that I actually hadn't earned the respect for anyone to actually listen to my suggestions. I figured they would just tell me what you did previously when I suggested a venting forum for the ones who continue to harp on the same problems without ever trying to actually listen or solve them - that it was my fault for thinking this shit. There's nothing better out there as far as a forum where I can go to try to learn (and yes, I admit to being involved in drama, a lot of times my part was because the shit was getting on my nerves so bad I couldn't stand their shit anymore) in my own fucking defense.

I don't expect you to be anyone but Ash. I don't expect anyone here to be anything but human. And I can say that recently I have done my best, amongst blaring problems, like a red light going off in my face, and I DID learn to not take things personally, and I DID learn to deal with my feelings. All in all, it has been a great experience for me, because I learned a little more of what every human being should know, which is how to deal with their own problems and to be adaptable. The getting-Ash-and others-to-hear-me-out is the one thing I continued to fail at, but I was working on it.

I'll be damned if I didn't learn a whole helluva lot of stuff since I joined here, so I would say this website is a smashing success. And if you don't wanna be all huggy-kissy, that's fine with me. I was having problems trying to figure out 1) how to be validating (it's kindof hard to understand validation when you have never really gotten any, nor do you really need any). 2) if validating people was going to be being true to myself. But when I don't validate, some people get all fucking bent out of shape, and I felt like screaming, "I'm not mother theresa!" My talents appear to be taking shape in other arenas. It doesn't mean I don't care - if I didn't care, I wouldn't be here in the fucking first place! Anyways, that's more me uncensored. I've had to realize I will never be a Sarah or a Candle, but I sure do appreciate those types. And that's ok, I can be me and still make my own contributions (if I could just figure out how to do that to where people actually understood me or didn't find me cold) lol.

As far as you thinking you are miserable and all that horseshit -

I gave up on the human race a long time ago, and just accepted they were flawed and always would be, that there would be people that were more good than bad, and that there would be those that were more bad than good. Just because you can't be what you were trying to be doesn't make you bad. You're you, and you're no more bad than the next guy. Sure, you've got issues just like all humans do. And that's the thing - all humans are flawed. I sure as shit am, although I intend to improve on what I've got, I will still be flawed, but that doesn't make me bad or good, it makes me human.

You're fine the way you are, although I do see that some improvements could be made around here, it's not because you are the miserable bitch you seem convinced you are right now (which is ridiculous).

You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.

This is the perfect arena for people to practice and learn. If they can't rise to the occasion and fix their shit here, they won't do it anywhere. No one will be around to save you (which is the way it should be here- sink or swim), but truly, you aren't in any danger unless you are dopey enough to give out your personal info to anyone on the net.

Well said Ash.

(((Take care of you)))

I'm sorry that I thought maybe you were pretending to feel the way you do. I should have known better. I just got a little panicky and impatient to know what was going on. Thank you for explaining.

Am I one of the troublesome handful?

Thanks for sharing your feelings Ash.

________________________________________________________



Ash delegates equal authority over the board to all SCLs. And fortunately, she does take breaks from the board with some regularity. These breaks aren't usually announced to the community though.

Thank you for honestly sharing your feelings Ash. I guess we all have a breaking point. I for one apologize if I have ever stirred the pot. I am trying to learn to pause and step away. I hope we can all learn to do that. And I hope your words reach all of us and we can all learn from them. Your priority right now is to take care of Ash.

I'm responding and I'm going to do so and give my own personal opinions.


Ash, look, you have BPD. You've done a lot of recovery work and learned how to deal with a lot of it, but you are still vulenrable. I think you are going to continue to struggle with your own mental illness like everyone else to some degree. Maybe instead of putting yourself down for it, recognize it as such and accept that.


You said you had a bad week and were snapping at people, etc., then you decide to post about how bad a person you are and invite people to tell you all about it. I still say that your displays of irritability and anger and even rants that happen every so often on the board could be part of your illness that needs to be looked at, whether by med adjustments, therapy, or introspection.


I've known you for several years now and where I'm coming from is here: You and I have had many discussions, some easier than others, sometimes I DID try to tell you that I felt you were too harsh with your words. Sometimes I invited you to please speak up to me because although I knew you could be harsh, I wanted the honesty. I see you asking for honesty now. I have long long outgrown my desire for your approval. I have long taken you down from any type of pedestal. That said, it doesn't mean I have put you down in some gutter either. I see you as a fellow sufferer of mental illness. An equal. I hear many people talking to you as if you have the answers and wanting your approval. I just don't feel that way. I think you have good qualities Ash. I also think you have your difficulties. Wouldn't it be healthier to say, hey I'm a fellow sufferer of BPD rather than realizing you continue to suffer and have things you cannot quite control and then inviting people to hurt you?


I believe you. I really truly do. It's sad. I think it is sad for how this illness affects all of us, in different ways.


I honestly don't know about the "in-fighting" and whatever that involves. So why open yourself up to it? You can only control so much on a message board or in a large group. You can't put out every little fire.

If you are tired of coddling, don't coddle. I hear you saying here that you are an equal, one of us, and you are posting when you post and to whom you post, JUST LIKE THE REST OF US. You don't have to justify that. Do you? You can post or help or pay attention to anyone you like, just like the rest of us. Maybe this is a good think to look at---WHY people expect more from you. Is there something YOU are doing to promote this type of reaction? Is it that people view you are the *recovered-one* and how do you support this view? If you are the *one* *recovered-one* people are going to put you on that pedestal and look for any little flaw and when they see it they are going to complain, confront, whatever. Can you bring yourself back down to maybe a *recovering one* who still is vulnerable and who still has to work on it? Maybe *one* who does not have all the answers and is here to work too?


Again, this IS an issue, I believe you! You do have a team here and they can help. How about a solution? Why not get your team together and say hey, lets solve this TOGETHER? Have everybody come up with solutions, i.e., close Ash's PM box unless it is from admins/leaders, make a forum for board problems/concerns, list leaders for every forum and their responsibilities for that forum, including people issues, have leaders refer people complaints to the convo corner---direct people to work it out with the specific other or to stop complaining.


Is the "lynch mob" people who PM you all at once? How do you know about the gossiping about you being a raving bitch? People do talk about people behind their backs all the time. How can you control that? That will never happen. I prefer to simply not know and I am not concerned with what people say behind my back. Who cares? The problem comes into play when the resentment becomes action.


You don't want to be the all-perfect, all-knowing, yet you seem to be the all-knowing. How? What can you do to change this? It would be like my ability to hear everyone who knew me behind closed doors and then feeling tortured about what they say about me. That would be hell. I can't stop people I know from talking about me. I can't fix the world or any group, but I can set my own limits and boundaries. I can chose to turn off my ability to hear all the BS.


Ash, you do it too hon. You get angry and then every so often, you blow. It doesn't really matter what the reason is, although it is usually a lack of patience with people. And you are saying it happens in real life too. You get sick of the people at work, wherever, and you get angry. That part is YOUR stuff. The stuff here you are going to have to realize---this place isn't perfect, but it is focused on people trying to help other people WORK. That isn't so common and difficult to find on internet boards. Again, spread out the responsibility of confrontation amonst your helpers and stop trying to take responsibility for EVERYTHING. It might help you to get off that pedestal people put you on.


Say what you want about me, but I'm not surprised. I think this has happened before. The "way" you started it was a little different and concerning, but this has happened before. I think you have had meltdowns regularly. I've told you that before and if anybody thinks I'm hurting you or being rude, that's okay. I'm not trying to be, but I don't have Ash on a pedestal and I think she is a fellow sufferer.


You need to give up the perfectionism! The board will never be perfect and yes, humanity is flawed and always will be. Maybe accepting the "messy" in life will help. Realizing the messy recovery is still recovery. Maybe stop expecting Ash to be perfect will help too. Focus on *YOU* not humanity, not the board as a whole. Give yourself a break!


Okay, good, so now learn from it, instead of self flagelation.


I'm still unsure how you know all. Are you able to view all the PMs in people's files or something? What the heck?







Ash, then this is your job to stop trying to be everything to everybody. Instead of trying to bend over backwards and be the all powerful, stop doing it. It reminds me of my mother, whom I have come to admire in many ways through my years of recovery by the way, but anyway, she used to work very very hard, trying to do everythign for everybody adn she was MISERABLE, ANGRY, RESENTFUL! And she would take it out on ME. Blow up, yell about how all this was expected of her. I would say, so do't do it! She would give me the dirtiest look and say, "I have to," "Who ELSE is going to do it!"

Ash I see a lot of that in you. STOP trying to fix every little gripe. STOP trying to be perfect. Just be YOU. Post what you want and answer whatever post you want to. You can figure out how to set boundaries and you might have to close your PM to the public. YOU have to take care of YOU. The board cannot take care of you by changing.



Either you are going to have to set boundaries or not be one of us and make it your job to try to smack everyone into reality. What do YOU want? It doesn't sound like taking on the job of fixing every little thing is what will make you happy, nor will it work. You are taking on the job of the momma bear, trying to be a loving mom, and then this anger brewing inside blows and you slap your kids and yell at them and they behave for a while or stay away for a while, or keep quiet for a while until they start to act up again and it goes back to the beginning.


Please, why bother yourself with gossip? How and why are you subjecting yourself to this impossible task? Take what people say at face value, what you see on posts and deal with THAT.




Maybe you can find a grey here. I just don't see you as this "good person" perfect loving creature you are talking about. I know you are all to capable of bitch-slapping (your term) and I've had it several times. I still don't see you as the other extreme, mean, nasty, fraud. This is really extreme or black and white thinking and you know it.

I say deal with what you should be dealing with, your own boundaries, you own stuff, things you can actually change. I hope you don't go from one extreme to the other, be here for all or be here not at all. I feel I have seen that from you. Just be a fellow BPD Ash. Is that so much more edifficult for you than to call yourself a failure, a fraud? You seemed to have asked for feedback so I've given you some. Its the least I could do for all the feedback you've given me over the years. :biggrin

OK, Ash, thanks for the explanation. You are tapped out.

Are you referring to ME in this statement?



Yes, I want to know. Because you then go on to say:



That is something I DO NOT DO. IF you think that I DO THAT, you are making an assumption about ME.

And if I'm one of the ones you want to bitch slap, then go ahead. I will bitch slap you right back for all the drama YOU have caused on here for the past couple of days. And YOU ARE the one whose been here the longest and holds out your recovery for those who come on here to HOPE for. :slapfight How effective is that, eh?

Damn right I'm feeling angry. Just like you, I DON'T like ASS-U-MEptions being made about ME and what I am doing.

I'll say it to your face, Ash. I did in the thread of "i finally figured this out". Somehow you tied me to child molesters, etc. You put me and someone else on the same train. Which left me scratching my head because we weren't on any train. At least I wasn't.

I think you are throwing one of these because BPDR is NOT going the way YOU want it to. :tantrum

I agree with C2L and what she has posted, Ash. I second what she said to you.

I don't believe so. Not at the core of it. I think you really do want to work on yourself and help other people you feel want / need / deserve / will appreciate your help. I don't believe you're a shit-flinger or drama seeker, per se. I don't believe you engage in coalition building and plotting behind the scenes. I think you're too independent for that.

I do, however, believe that you harbor a grudge against me for things in the past, something or things you haven't gotten over or forgiven me for. Maybe I haven't been meek enough for you or bowed & scraped enough for you to forgive me or even accept that I ... well, whatever it was you wanted or expected out of me. Whether I didn't say something the right way. Didn't wrap things up nice & neat with a bow for you. Didn't eviscerate myself publicly enough for you. Whatever it was, I don't think you've ever gotten over it and I think you hang onto that still. It's still something you hold against me and there's some level of mistrust or disrespect or something going on somewhere under the surface that I think colors things for you around here.

I think you may be teetering on the brink of public vs. private issues. That there's something unresolved and you won't let it go until it is resolved, even if it can never be resolved. It will always be a thing for you, between us, you holding over my head, filtering everything else I say and do somehow.

I don't believe you are part of the in-fighting that goes on behind the scenes. I don't think your intentions are to cause drama. I think you are honestly here (when you're here) to work on and focus on yourself, which is very difficult for you and can sometimes (more often than not) trigger you which leads into extended absences.

I think many people don't understand you and some people get (IMO) overly-shocked by some of the things you share. I think they pass judgments and may get to whispering behind the scenes about why you're here, how you can "get away with" things, etc. I think people may misinterpret my willingness to remain non-judgmental with you about your actions and it perplexes them to no end which also serves as gossip fodder for them. I don't think you bring this about. I don't think you have any control over it. This is simply the result of people making assumptions, projecting, twisting, taking things personally ("Denim gets away with it but she's mean to me"), etc.

I have done my damndest to always be truthful with you. I admit to having held back at times because I felt you might not be ready to hear something yet - but I do that with other people too so there's no favoritism in that. I never want to be bitch-slappy enough to drive someone into a suicidal spiral and in your case, I also worry that I may inadvertantly trigger a break or something else.

I suppose I consider you a friend in as much as we could be friends. I worry about you considerably. I want to help you. I may not always know how, especially over the internet, from a great distance. But I would like to think that I can be a stable, rational, non-judgmental person in your life that you can count on.

I also think you bring considerable wisdom and sage advice to the table when it comes to assisting other people with their issues, areas of concern, etc. I think you're an intelligent woman who knows heaps about being able to cope with difficult situations - sometimes in unhealthy ways but for the most part, reasonable.

The question has arisen from time to time whether BPDR is the right place for you with the DID issues. I don't want you to go away and I would even be willing to maintain a posting-style-relationship through email or build another board or something to, again, remain a stable, rational, non-judgmental person in your life that you can count on.

Perhaps this is where my over-identification comes in to play. There's just something about who you are that resonates for me and I respond to it. Any drama that follows in your wake, I believe, comes from those who don't know how to handle some of the things you say or describe. I think they pass judgment and have moral reactions. I think they get caught up in their shock and emotional distress that they are quick to lose sight of the actual core issues you're trying to address. They get lost in the details and miss the bigger picture. They stir up drama over the details because that's who they are, that's how they cope.

But no, I don't think you intend to stir up drama. It's entirely possible that I may be over-identifying but when I see you post so much in one sitting, I see you trying to work through something. I see the mention of the details as a way for you to try to understand the larger picture rather than trying to whip up a frenzy on the morality of sex or bondage or anything else.

I also think that sometimes because I'm focused on the big picture, I may indeed let some of the details slide whereas with someone else who is posting only the details or is focused on a much smaller picture, I may grab onto a few details and really dig at those. I make no excuses for that, though. It's my style and my choice and my decision making matrix at work. Not everything has to be applied unilaterally, IMO. Context is important to me.

Anyway, kind of rambled there but I hope that answers your quasi-question.

Ann, I believe the BPDR delegation issue has already been addressed. Some of those things can't be delegated though. How can I expect Trinity (or anyone else) to speak to the why's and wherefore's of my actions in a past event? I will take your point about self-care boundaries under advisement.

GH, I think I clarified your above-listed concerns in another thread. If there is something still outstanding, please let me know.

OH, I think my anger is much more than just BPDR. I don't see BPDR as being threatened, per se. My anger at the nimrod in the grocery store who lifts up the one product he had on the belt, causing the belt to pull my items forward so it appears they are his items, has nothing to do with BPDR. I still get angered by people being so moronic that I just want say "What the fuck, dude?" I still look down on people in everyday life, consider them stupid morons. My being a bad person has very little to do with BPDR, Marni. It really doesn't. It's a core, visceral thing that's been an issue my whole life. I've been trying to put on the happy face and be civil and polite and genteel and whatnot and it's been grating on my nerves. I *have* to do it at work or else I'd be homeless. I was asking for honest feedback about the things that I do that are "bad" because I wanted to see if they were universal - present outside the board - or if they were board-specific.

Aqua, I (and I'm sure the entire S/CL Team) would love to hear more about the BPDR improvements you think could be made. I also like what you said about "Just because you can't be what you were trying to be doesn't make you bad." I just don't know if it applies to me. I don't see how constant condescending thoughts are anything but bad.

C2L, there's a lot there. I can't tackle all of it right now but I do want to address something that came up a couple of times so it seems important to you. I don't know-know that people are bitching about me behind my back. But when there is evidence that such off-board gossip is happening (through conversation with others on the S/CL team, through basic observation of alliances and similar phrases being used and the timing of the "here, here!" stuff), with this big-ass bullseye stapled to my forehead, it's not a terribly far leap of logic, is it?

Ash wrote:



That and your other thread cleared it all up for me.

I am a detail oriented person and at times, I have trouble seeing the big picture. I was concerned because I wasn't on here (out in Utah) when whatever happened happened. And I was the one who brought up 'courtesy and respect'.

FOR THE RECORD: I believe that going behind someone's back to gossip and criticize them is disrespectful. It isn't being impeccable with one's words either.

I can relate to what you say about the grocery store clerk. That is one of the reasons that my T drilled into my head, "treat everyone with courtesy and respect, whether YOU think they deserve it or not". I may want to scream at the ancient, moving slower than cold tar bagger at the grocery store (in fact one time, I did snap at him), but now I know that wouldn't be courteous. Me, snapping at an old man does not help me to feel good about myself.

This is MY stuff and just what my T helped me with. Because sometimes, I just 'hate' people.

That's just the thing. I don't scream at people. I just think all sorts of things. I'm sure the thoughts pass across my face and people pick up on my distaste but I don't comment, I don't push, shove or punch anyone no matter how much I might fantasize about doing it. I allow them the right to be complete morons but I don't like it one little bit!

Restraining myself from yelling at someone or shoving them out of my way or inch through the parking lot instead of running them over for walking in the middle of the damn aisle (or even laying on the horn, shouting out the window or anything else) is a far cry from respecting them. The fact that I loathe people in the first place is (to me) an indicator that I'm a bad person.

A good person doesn't detest people, look down on them, think they're stupid morons.

A good person doesn't have thoughts of grabbing the loaf of bread and beating another person with it.

A good person doesn't categorically designate 99% of people as stupid morons.

A good person doesn't make snap judgments, cast aspersions and generally hate other people.

A good person doesn't treat their spouse like shit and take them for granted.

A good person doesn't throw their hands up in disgust & walk away when people piss them off because they are "too stupid to live."

Good people don't do these things.

I don't have respect for people, overall. There are very few who I do respect and I'm even hard on them. I restrain myself for the most part but at the core, I don't have respect for most of the populace.

I thought that it was a matter of expectations. I was expecting too much out of people. I was expecting that they would pull their head out of their ass and figure out that it's rude, annoying and dangerous to walk slowly down the center of an aisle of a busy parking lot. I was expecting that they would have the brain power to figure out that removing the loaf of bread would tell the sensor it should move the conveyor belt. I was expecting that people would have the common sense God gave little green apples and some basic level of intelligence.

So I spent a good long while on trying to combat these expectations with the tools. But it's more than that. It's a core thing. I don't know that tools can change something so basic. This negativity toward humanity is part of my Genuine Self and I guess it comes down to "do I respect the Genuine Self or do I disregard it entirely, trying to become something I'm not"?

I've tried the latter. Now I'm going with the former.

Shake your head and if it falls off, kick it.

Seriously, grow up. If I were to guess, most people have these feelings once in a while. They learn to deal. Or, when its pointed out that THEY are the one's being morons, they realize that everyone is human and does the same thing.

Do you seriously think that you are above walking down the center of a parking lot? The few times you noticed and moved, doesn't really make up for the hundreds of times you didn't. Get in touch with reality.

OK...Some of this is pretty black and white. No wonder it's getting at you!

You are right. "Good people" are always kind and thoughtful and patient and understanding. That's the ideal. None of us are ideal. Heck, it turns out even Mother Teresa had some rough days. There are lots of other things that "good people" are/do that YOU are/do. "they" work hard, they're good listeners, they're willing to help others. You do all that, and more.

It looks to me like you have good qualities and...not-so-great qualities. Sounds about right to me. As if I had any say in the matter. But it's NOT a case of all Good/all Bad.

Ash:

Imo, what you've described as evidence of what a 'bad person' does/doesn't do or think, etc., I would describe as evidence of what a hurting person does/thinks (or doesn't do/think).

My impression is that you loathe what you perceive as a 'victim-mentality' and, as a result, will not let yourself genuinely honor your own hurt and victimization (from your childhood, etc.).

Denim has said that she 'hates' the victim-mentality (as you guys refer to it) as well, and that may be where the feelings of identification come in.

I care for Denim, too, so that's not my point, but I think it illustrates what I'm trying to relay and I don't think Denim would mind me bringing up this in this light, especially to offer to you.

My brother hates it, too, especially when he sees it, or believes he sees it, in me. It enrages him and he, too, will deny that he has ever been 'hurt' or a victim of unfairness/cruelty (when he was a child and helpless and even as 'programmed in' as he got older). Instead, he projects it as disgust toward me and my stupidity and weekness, etc., and assigns to me feelings/beliefs and attitudes that I simply do not hold.

We both have scars and they manifest (often) in different ways.

That's what I kind of sense from you. An example would be rejecting people's 'niceties'. You're of course correct that some people (generally in the world) may just be talking smack and stabbing you in the back whilst smiling to your face. I've had that done to me numerous times actually, (in my past life) = sometimes bc the person didn't believe I could be 'for real' and other times, bc they could and for whatever reason it disgusted and at the same time challenged them.

God doesn't make junk, (imo), and you're no exception. You love dogs right? Ok, that's one. Those are true things, but you have indicated that, basically, you are only open to hearing so- called bad things that support your self-injury/false beliefs about yourself.

My brother is also that way. Nothing makes him more angry than if I try to say something nice to him and heaven forbid if I should share with him how much I love him ... I better take good cover.

He does not believe what I say, not because I am being untruthful, but bc he cannot imagine loving himself or that anyone could really be true. Why? Because he's been hurt so often, which, of course he denies, and turns around into what we here would call distorted/twisted thinking.

Dealing with those expectations/bombs waiting to explode does require the proverbial egg-shell walking and is crazy-making.

Yet my brother, like you, is way too intelligent, (he, unlike me, has a genius IQ as I suspect you do, too), to really buy into what he's saying and saying he wants to stick to 100%. But to do anything else would, in his mind, make him truly vulnerable and that is his very worst fear, i.e. that he will be found out as a person who IS vulnerable to being hurt and who does care, etc..

I've lost track of what I'm saying ...

OK, you don't behave badly, you just think what you consider 'bad' thoughts about the people who irritate you.

Doesn't everyone pretty much do that? I mean, I think, "I'd love to hit this stupid jerk who is out riding his lawn tractor on the road at night." But I don't. I don't even flip him off (mainly because he wouldn't see it - too dark and it would be a waste of my energy).

Because you loathe people that irritate the hell out of you, does that make you a bad person?

Seems to me that you are your own worst critic, Ash. You turn that in on yourself. You pick yourself to shreads. Odds are you would not ever walk slowly down the middle of a crowded, busy parking lot. You'd think YOU were an idiot if you did do such a thing. So you expect others to not be so stupid to do it themselves. If they do do it, they are idiots.

I had a boss pull me aside one day and tell me, "Not everyone is YOU, J. and they are not going to do things the way you do; nor do they have to."

Perhaps you loathe people because you loathe yourself. I don't know. Perhaps you expect a lot from others because you expect a lot from yourself.

This I do know - when I treat others with courtesy and respect I feel a lot better about me. And in turn, I treat myself more respectfully and courteously. I do not consider it "my finest hour" when I spit vile back at my Ol Sis.

More importantly, I work on seeing everyone as a human being; even those that piss me off. The old man bagger has feelings just like I do. He has a home, probably a family and worries of his own. Just like I do.

One of the DBT workbook skills was to do some things that you normally wouldn't do. Perhaps you need to walk really slow down the middle of the parking lot. See the other side. Pendulum swing, maybe?

No, I am not Pollyana and I'm not trying to blow smoke up anywhere. I am just letting you know that I have felt most of my life like you do about people. I have struggled with it. I felt that for sure I was just 'evil' and a narcissist. I could go and be a hermit with the best of 'em. This was discussed at length in my sessions with my T.