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I'm thinking, Ash, maybe you need to redefine what a "good" person is. Or, better, yet, what a good Ash is. (Actually, really I guess that should be your real name. )

Hi Ash,

I know you have a lot going on right now and are busy, so I don't expect a response to this. Just wanted to comment on the above.

Yes, you're right there have been some issues that have been hard for me to let go off and to forgive. The result of that has been a tainted, distorted vision of how things are on the board and of you. I have been seeing double-standards everywhere lately and feeling mightily riled by it.

Once again, I find myself taking your words personally when you talk of having covert discussions in private & using up your admins time in private, because just recently I confess, that I have worked through the remaining issues I was having in regards to you and the board, in private with one of your admin team that I respect and admire greatly and with whom I have a history of positive interactions, being able to handle their communication style and I also know that I can trust this person implicitly, based on previous interactions.

I can honestly tell you that I was "me-focused" and that I've gotten to the bottom of it all now. It was hard work. It was painful realising how much of it was "my stuff" and "old stuff." But hey, no pain = no gain. I've come away from lengthy discussions with a list of 5 new insights to apply in the future. I've forgiven myself for making so many mistakes. I've forgiven you for whatever errors I believe you have made. I can assure you that I have now let it all go. I really needed to do this Ash. It isn't comfortable or pleasant knowing that you have such strong bad feelings towards another person and that everything is tainted as a result of that. I really wanted to put this right but have obviously been stuck with it for quite some time, not sure how to sort it.

I feel so much better having sorted through this. But, I also now feel guilty because I used up so much of the S/CL's time and discussed issues I was having with somebody behind their back, hence my reaction to your post

Anyway, I just wanted to explain my response to your post and to let you know that as far as I'm concerned the slate is clean between you & I.

Amanda

To clarify: when I said "comment on the above." I mean on this:

Oh, I forgot -

I talked with my PDoc about supplementing my Effexor with Wellbutrin a while back. He let me know that Wellbutrin can make some people more irritable - especially "Type A" people. He let me know he didn't think it would work well for me as I'd become likely more irritable - but he wrote me a script anyway.

I tried it for a couple of months. I felt 'bitchy' while on it. I felt irritable. Just about everything bugged me.

I know you take Wellbutrin. I'd say you were definitely a "Type A" personality. Perhaps there might be something else that works better now and for you. I don't know. I just thought I'd mention this.

Amanda, I am sorry that it came across to you that I thought you were wasting an S/CL's time. That was not my intention. I don't believe that truly forward-moving discussions with honest, sincere intentions are time-wasters for anyone. No one on the S/CL team has said anything to me about discussions with you and I honestly have no clue who it was you were talking to. (If someone mentioned it to me, it floated in one ear & out the other.)

My reference to public vs. private was based on how lightly you tread with me around certain topics or areas but if someone else voices an opinion similar to my own, you don't seem to hold any punches. (Not that I see you as combative; just a figure of speech.) The fact that it seems to have gone on quite a while led me to believe "it's something she hasn't let go of & since she won't talk to me about it & she's avoiding me on certain topics, she's probably holding onto it somehow somewhere." I don't even know that I meant "private" as in "PM" or as "private thoughts" - it just seemed as though there was something else lurking in the shadows is all.

I'm glad you have your five new insights and I'm hopeful they will be helpful to you for a long time. I don't want you to feel guilty - hell, that's the last thing I would want! To have worked through something that was obviously a large issue, a looming presence in your daily interactions (when you're at BPDR) is NOT something to feel guilty about or to feel you've wasted someone's time!

The time-wasting I'm talking about is the crap that C2L was talking about - putting out every little fire, resolving every little tiff, handling every little frickin' thing that so much as upset one little feather, pointing fingers, calling names, remaining stubbornly stuck, clinging to grudges. That's time-wasting. Working through and reaching a place where you're able to put that kind of crap behind you is a wonderful thing and I'm very happy for you that you've reached that place! Really and truly.

I know you've said in other threads that when someone here pisses you off, you've found it reminds you of someone or some other situation in your past. I'm hopeful that whatever slights you preceived me inflicting on you were part of that past stuff. I still stand by all the things I've said and done if only because they were the best I was capable of at that time. I can't (won't) apologize for doing my best. I can only work continuously on raising that bar. I know sometimes that bar, for me, has been pretty low, that sometimes I get lost in my own shit.

Thank you for your honesty and directness. I appreciate it.

Ash, I just want to thank you for what you wrote. I saved the post as a word document so I can look at it if I think of finding it again. It is good to know that it is okay for me to be here because sometimes I wonder about that. My foster mother has BPD, which sometimes feels like my strongest connection to BPDR since I have been told I never really had BPD, even though I have met nearly all the diagnostic criteria in the past. She looked at the "stupid people" in the world very much as you do so maybe that is why I relate to you as well. Maybe I see a lot of my foster mother in you and that feels comforting to me somehow (the thought of having a "mother" transference is a bit scary, though, LOL). I have always felt that my feeling connected to you goes beyond your having a high enough IQ to write complete sentences. I sometimes feel a lack of connection with people who tend to find me intimidating due to my own communication style.

It sounds like I could be a topic for gossip here and that is not something I would have guessed was going on. I have shared too much information at times, which is strange because I am typically a pretty "closed" person who does not share much about myself with others. It is probably the non-judgmental stance here that helps me feel safe enough to talk about things I would not discuss anywhere else. I end up triggering myself when I open up too much and then I shut down for a while trying to collect my thoughts. I want to believe that my experiences are okay and that I am okay even though I know that I am mentally ill. I do work hard at finding solutions to my problems and I like to think that I can offer something helpful to others who are also seeking solutions of their own.

I don't think it's so odd that the people asking you directly if you have problems with them are the ones you don't. I figure it is to be expected and I figure you pretty much knew it would be this way.

I also think a lot of what is going on for you is exactly what is what goes on for the ones you are so frustrated over. So, it sorta gets back to Amanda's point in my recent thread:



Fact is you are burnt out. No surprise. How many years? How much effort do you put in here? How important is it to you?

Likewise, how much is it this vs this and all the other stuff you are burnt out on; frustrated over?

I havent asked you if "Im one or THE ONE" cause I think you know pretty damn well- as does the rest of the place- nothing too covert in what you are saying is there?

And, I've gotten beat up on the board plenty, dont need it again. Why didn't some of this come out in our Pm's ash? You've mentioned it, you've mentioned it in context of some particular discussions? Is the problem I wont change today? Fast enough? Soon enough? Quick enough?

So, I go work on it and I get side commentary and what happens, yep, I revert- geeze big surprise eh ? and now you blow up.. wow that really makes me wonder.

So, how is this thread any different than the exact behaviors you dont like and how different is this that you tell me in my recent thread- that its mine to deal with? (ie the world isnt what I think it should be). Yes, as has been said a few times lately- he who casts the first stone, eh ? - more like- we are all human.

If you can't cajole any more dont. If you can only be direct and honest then do so and make that very clear- I didnt see that in my recent CC with you, I saw anything but. So, again, WE ALL ARE HUMAN !!

You speak of behind the scenes and also of coalitions- those to me indicate that there are some needs within the community that are not being addressed in any way shape or form. So what avenues can be provided here within the community for issues to be brought up and discussed by the community at large in a constructive manner?

Is it possible that BDPR needs to evolve once again- where and how, would be directed by what you are finding yourself most frustrated with most often. If your only answer is to remove what you dont' like or are so very frustrated at- that isnt evolving but saying its this way or the highway and this board is only for those with bpd that meet these criteria a, b, c .. and no one else.

You make the above statement a lot- you cant be all things to all people. Most people can accept that "ASH" cant be and isnt. Most people accept that "BPDR" is and cant be. Have you ever had serious one on one discussions with those you are most irriated at and talked directly to them about where they are what they are looking for vs being focused on an issue or recovery with them. Is it possible you could learn about what you need to add to your BDPR requirements so you can 'get rid of ' the dead weight that doesnt meet your standard.

A few people mentioned that you have a hard time meeting people at where they are. I tend to agree with this very much. Just because you and other people can see it, doesnt mean the person with the issue can. Where else are they dealing with it? How long have they been actively working on it? Why has it come back up? How deeply ingrained? is it layered amongst upteen or even one other issue?

There are plenty of things each of us see in the other that we shake our head at. We have the right to ignore them or we can try to help them- and I've seen people here- yourself included- do both. I've also seen people blow a fuse over such. Again, no surprise, really, is it? But telling them 'get on with it' or 'just do x' is a croc. They have to fully grasp the problem before they can do anything. Is it really a matter of 'just not wanting to' ? That really doesnt give the person a whole lot of credit.

I think C2L, GH and a few others gave excellent ideas about the issues as you stated them and what you can do to help yourself.

Your post is two sided- let me flog you in present by name if I havent done so covertly yet.. and let me for once make a post about real issues for me that I am really frustrated with and need to get a better view of. Is this really any different than what any of us come to post about?

I hope things in your life overall settle down and you re-gain your balance. I'm not too surprised you are feeling as you have, you've made a few posts leading up to this.

I hope by putting it out here it is helping you somehow. And, if you really do have a problem with me- please PM me and deal with it, as I did you in private. - thanks

Are you suggesting that it's time for BPDR to "evolve" into becoming a place which fosters, favors and rewards "putting out every little fire, resolving every little tiff, handling every little frickin' thing that so much as upset one little feather, pointing fingers, calling names, remaining stubbornly stuck, clinging to grudges"?

That's the very environment I sought to escape when I started this place. I want no part of the place you suggest BPDR needs to become.

Believe me, I could have gotten some wicked-good gossip-fests going in PM about some folks on the board. There are plenty of folks who would love to dish about other people and I wouldn't be surprised if some folks were especially eager to hear me in particular dish on people. It serves no purpose though.

I didn't start this thread or any of this bad-person discussion because of you or anyone else. I didn't open this thread so I could double-dog-dare people to ask me if I thought they were part of the troublemaking group. I'm guessing some part of you knew that though. It's just more fun to take shots, isn't it?


You're absolutely right. I agree with you 100%! They DO have to grasp the problem before they can do anything. But how can they grasp something new when they are clutching so tightly to the past that it would take the Jaws of Life to pry their hands free so they could even consider grasping something new?

This place doesn't have unlimited resources. If someone isn't ready to be here, if they aren't at least willing to put something down so they can pick up something else, they shouldn't be here. They get nothing from it. They can't - because they won't let go of anything!


You - and these unnamed other people - are absolutely right. I don't meet people where they are! Why the heck would I do that? I invite people to step forward, to move into healthy living, to come out of their comfort zone and try something new. Why the heck would I want to or even think it's a good thing to go over to the unhealthy spot and encourage comfort in that place?

If what you're really trying to say is that I don't come across as empathetic, I agree with that too.

But no, I will not make it a habit to go to the sick places and make excuses for it, justify it by the length of time it's been there. The past does not matter. The only thing that matters is RIGHT NOW.

As for the rest of it, I'm not really up for PM discussions at present. In fact, you suggested that C2L and GH gave some good advice. In those suggestions was "do not engage in PMs with non-S/CLs" and I think I may stick with that for a while.

:calvin

I can't remember which thread had the info I'm about to comment on, so forgive me. I hope we can stick to one thread to make it easier for folks with memory issues, such as myself. )

I know Ash may know this about me, but I doubt anyone else does. I don't like most people. I'm always civil. Heck, I'm usually a smiley nice girl. But in my head, I want to do the most God awful things to people. And yes, stupidity is my trigger. If you can't keep up with me, get out of my way. I don't feel like a bad person for it. Do I wish I liked everyone? Not really. I used to like everyone and it didn't quite work. So now, I hate everyone. Ok, not everyone, but pretty close. Black and white, I know. I've yet to find the grey in this.

But in the end, it's what I do with my thoughts that I think matters. Do I scream at or demean people? No. Am I rude to people? Well, sometimes. :shysmile I think my disgust shows on my face as well. But I try. So what I do is mostly keep to myself. I'm friendly with my co-workers, but not sociable. My H and I rarely go out. He thinks much the same way I do. And to be honest, it works for me. I would experience less aggravation, I'm sure, if I didn't hate everyone, but I just can't find it in me to deal with stupidity.

Hi Ash,

I believe I've sensed something of what you're describing - and I had quite a problem with it back around 06, when I bitched at you regularly over some things that were related, and different things that were entirely silly. It was a relief those few times you got openly angry at me, because that was something I knew what to do with. More recently, I've mainly been baffled, unable to find many points of connection or understanding, eventually concluding, for all these years, I have very little idea who Ash is at all, and maybe I'm never going to find out. What you've written in the last couple of days feels real and solid, something I can hold in my mind and look at properly. OK, so you're mean and bitter inside, I kind of knew that; but it's much easier for me to like/respect/trust you in this "form" than the wispy clouds with the invisible sharp edges on them.

Even if this is your true Genuine Self for all time, I don't think you're a bad person. Someone mentioned the cactus flower. I don't have the words to explain...


I said "even if"... maybe there is more, and you can find peace. If the tools you know aren't working, maybe there's something else that will. For the past year or so, I've mainly been working on things that the clean logical BPDR tools don't reach, things that are messy and vague and terrifying. I might speak more of this another day when I've got some more energy.

I'm confident that respect/acceptance is first. Pretending too much makes you sick. If you can be whole now in some parts of the world (even if not at work ;)) maybe this will get easier by itself.


Reading other people's posts I wonder if I'm still not seeing, if this post of mine is completely off-the-wall, but if so, I guess I can find out and work on it.

In one of your posts in this thread you said this:



and now you say this:



So, it's a bit confusing as to what is going on for you. maybe you are just really friggin pissed and angry and hurt that your beloved BPDR has had a number of problems over the last few months. It's bound to happen. And it's bound to happen when you are having a bunch of stress elsewhere also.

Is it possible that while BPDR feels messy and maybe somehow in peril to you atm, it's that the rest of your life is goofy also and BPDR isnt giving you the stablitiy and sense of ASH (ie grounding) that it usually does so you are that much more askew atm?



First you ask then you state what I am suggesting. And, nope, I am not saying BPDR become what “I” want. I'm not even saying what I want. I threw out a suggestion! You are talking of problems within the community that you say re-occur. I was presenting ‘an idea’ to be considered/played with/manipulated/toyed with - thrown out- which you have.. no problem I dont really care !!

My thought was: Is there a need/a way/a purpose to open up/provide the community a way to deal with things they feel may be of benefit for the community within the basic premises. Would having ‘an avenue’ (hell I don’t know what that is) be a way to squash the behind the scenes commotion and alliances that you say are harming the board? And, are there alliances? Really? Or, is it really a matter of similar issues/concerns popping up?

All I was saying was if the community felt they had an area to express concerns, and other members could yeah/nay it.. would it help diffuse the background noise that you feel is so harmful.

Ash – I am not saying I know a damn thing. I am saying if something occurs time and again and again and its not just 1 person (whom, imo, you should then be going to directly and honestly and discuss ‘the problem(s)’) then Ash- Id say something isn’t working. And, I thought this was part of your post – or did you need your gripe session like the rest of us need ours?

If you really think I want to change BPDR Ash, well, you then do have a pretty incorrect perception of me. I’ve left here before, I’ve been elsewhere. It’s not the only net avenue I currently use. I’m sure I’ll leave here again- when I am ready. BPDR is not ‘it’ for me. But, I do find it of value- is it that you feel I don’t value what you want me to? Is that what is most upsetting to you atm? That others are not seeing BPDR the way you want them to?



Apparently, I am pretty poor at explaining myself. Not too surprising is it?

First, since you are on this self-hate kick- or Ash_is_SO_Mean – well, LOL. I’ll bite. You can be. You have been. And you will be again. You are no different than the rest of us.

But, Ash, you do challenge and you do get people out of their comfort zone. Ive seen it; Ive been on the receiving end of it.

If your gripe is with you and I.. admit that atm you and I are stuck. If you chose to believe I don’t want to move forward and I’m being stubborn. So be it

There’s a matter of meeting someone where they are- which I felt you did in my recent thread. And I felt was effective. Are you pissed cause I reverted? How the hell do you think I feel?

This is part of what I mean by meet people where they are.




Ash, seems to me you are hung up on definition. For myself- the challenge you put forth to me in my recent thread was a sign of empathy- you took the time to deal with me, without attacking me or making me feel stupid for being where I was. And, Ive seen you do it all over the board. And, for me, this is what I need to be able to address my problems. Getting it- happens and doesnt.

What you did in the CC wherein you wanted to help me, and refused to hear me when I said that we had nothing to talk about because every move I made in the exchange we were discussing you disagreed with- showed no empathy and showed no sign of recognizing where I was. That, imo, was pretty down right mean- and, you continued to hammer away, because I continued to say- you aren’t seeing what my issues were. You cant help me, if you cant see them.



I’m glad you are so very clear on what you feel is the right way to approach this. It works for most the people most the time, but, I have never said any of what you just said above. That is your interpretation and probably the reason you are so sick of me, and perhaps some of the others. That is all you can see.

Meet me where I am does not mean, for me, bow down and say yes poor you. It means understanding that this IS an issue for me. (and see the above wherein I say I feel you did challenge me, etc)

Hell Ash, all you have to do to see an example of what works – or at least recently did- for me- is to see what transpired in my recent thread. I am using it as an example of what I am trying to say. I am not saying ‘do this every time- do it for every one’, cause there is no one-size-fits-all .. and I suppose that is my point ! (just as you say re bpdr)

Am I saying this is the only way to handle me? Or others? Hell no. But, I am trying to say you seem to think empathy means to say poor me. I personally dont agree. Empathy can come in a lot of forms. And, you, imo, have your own style of it.

The point being: we all have our good and bad. Ash shows us mostly her good (and it's very good). Ash sucks up so much crap on a daily basis, there is no end to how much she sucks up here (I've gotten a taste of it myself lately). Let her have her say in the way she wants to have it, because she's earned it.

You say you're a rotten person, a despicable human being, a miserable person, a hermit, and one scary bitch. Other people gossip about you and refer to you as a raving bitch and a two-faced loser. You refer to people as nimrods and morons on a fairly regular basis. Isn't labeling a form of twisted thinking?

I keep hearing about coalitions and alliances, but I honestly haven't paid enough attention to figure out who's saying what about whom. I'll admit that I've allowed this behind-the-scenes activity to affect my participation in the Forums, because just knowing about the gossip makes me very skittish.

So what are you going to DO about it, Ash? If people are gossiping via private message, can't you cut off their PM privileges? Some people won't shit or get off the pot. They lap up the attention they get from their chronic constipation, so they just keep straining and don't even notice when their asses go numb. What are you going to DO about it?

Take care,

EmJay

Ash,

Good for you for getting all that off your chest. Honestly, I think you are taking on too much responsibility. I can understand that you are frustrated that people are abusing the board but I think the cliques that formed are just bound to happen whenever a group of people interacts on a regular basis. We even have cliques at work - sometimes it feels like I am back in high school! Although, I must say that it seems odd that borderlines would form alliances/cliques - seems to me that most of us tend to be "loners" and "outsiders" but I think that the stuff we deal with here is so emotional that people are clinging onto others who seem to have the same viewpoints as a source of comfort. Yeah, it sucks that this is happening, but I don't think you can fix it. It's not your fault. It wasn't your intention for the board to be used that way. So, don't let it get to you so much! There are still plenty of people getting plenty of help here and lots of good, constructive advice being given. Maybe if you visit a thread and see that two people are getting into an inappropriate conflict, you (or a S/CL can PM them and tell them to take their issue to CC). If a thread gets off track, the S/CLs can gently remind everyone to stick to the original intent - how to deal with the issue, not just bitch about it. I know that they have done that for me before. I have posted about being depressed, discouraged, caught up in acting out, etc. and I have gotten some great responses with suggestions on how to manage my feelings and behavior and learn from these things in order to improve myself. When I realized that my posts were becoming more "woe-is-me" and "I suck and no one can fix me so stop trying," then I took a break from working on recovery (since I wasn't really doing the work and was never going to gain anything from what I was doing). Maybe others need to do the same. Take a look at yourself. Are you really here because you want help and you want to get better? Or are you here to get pity or prove to the world how fucked up you are? For me, I think it was the latter. Then this weekend I broke up with my BF and had a reality check - hey, I am not perfect, the world doesn't revolve around me, he doesn't see me as someone who can do-no-wrong...so how can I make myself a better person? You have to come to that point - to really WANT to work on yourself - if you are truly going to benefit from this board. Not everyone will understand that. Some will still come here to bitch/gossip/get pity. But that doesn't mean Ash should take it out on herself - YOU did not fail them, Ash. You did what you could and created a wonderful site for support and some people just choose to misuse it.

OK. So let's say deep down you really are a shitbird. While I doubt it, I suppose most anything is possible.

What's your point? What difference does it make to me in my recovery? I really don't care if you're a shitbird deep down or not.

So, is it something you need to do something about?

If so, what are you going to do and how are you going to get started?

I'd like to start this (sure-to-be-uber-lengthy) post with a few general, big-picture things before getting into any more nitty-gritty.

When I made the first post, my head was in a bad space. My thoughts were (obviously) jumbled and my communication was for shit.

The basic jumping-off point was that I was having a lot of anger issues, lack of patience, high irritation, etc. I spent some time thinking about how each incident related to a central theme. There was just too much icky negative stuff for it all to be coincidence. It had to be connected somehow. When I boiled it down to "I'm a bad person" I had a bit of a meltdown. (Okay, understatement.) It was like the foundation cracked with that realization and the whole house crumbled down around me.

If I had been thinking clearly, if I had waited to post until I could sort some things out (well, then I wouldn't have needed to post because it was posting that brought about the realizations & understandings), if I had been in a different headspace, I could have more clearly articulated what I was after. I really wanted to see and to know what it was that pisses people off about me, what makes me so scary, what leads to the impression of the things I would consider "bad." Not just to have the list, not just to be emotionally abused but to see if and how they also tied to a big-picture thing.

The piece that distorted things was that, historically, when I post about my own stuff, things get all out of control. It becomes "open season on Ash" and I still haven't gotten over that, obviously. Knowing that "exploring the connection between my anger and my bad/goodness" would be a form of opening myself to attacks, I tried to acknowledge it up-front and express that I would be okay with it, accepting of it, expecting it. It was that very attack-filled process that I was looking for.

If I had said "I want to explore my anger. I notice I get angry when A, B and C" there are a few folks who would have chorused in with "Yeah, and when D, E and F came up, you were really a bitch then too." That was really what I was looking for. Normally I want to stay focused on ABC and the community chimes in with everything else plus three kitchen sinks which gets me nowhere in those instances. This time I wanted the kitchen sinks and expressed it horribly.

I think that Nik "got it." Nik's been around ages (in the bestest way possible!) and she (I think) understood that I was aiming for DEF, just expressing it poorly. I may be projecting because I certainly can't read her mind but I think that's kind of where the "why not give Ash what she's asking for" came from.

Similarly, Ellen took me at my word (which I appreciated) and went with "might help, won't hurt" since I was already at the very bottom. Ellen's comments gave me something tangible outside my head to hold onto, examine, play with, bounce around, work with. In that case, she was right. I did over-identify. It was a blurring of boundaries to a certain extent and it jibed with the other anger-issue triggers throughout the week - blurred boundaries leading to the application of my own impossibly high standards onto others. "If I have the brain cells to stay to the side, everyone else should be as conscientious and considerate as me, dammit. They're fucking assholes for being different, for being less than me, for getting away with something I don't allow myself to get away with!"

Hearing all the ways I was good didn't help. I honestly zipped right past them and I still haven't read them. When I'm capable of accepting I have goodness or am capable of doing good, I know all that stuff. (Some would argue I've got an overabundance of that knowledge sometimes!) I wasn't posting to get external validation. That's not who or how I am. I may not share often enough for ya'll to know that about me but it would have been nice if more folks had taken me at my word - if not the actual words, the theme of the message itself.

At this point, if someone asked me "Do you still think you're a bad person?" I would answer yes but I'd like to explore the why's and wherefore's (what brought that badness about in me) in Denim's thread about victim mentality and the role abusive parenting may have played.

I think that my obstinance (another "bad" quality) works against me. Many people here would say "If someone says I'm bad, I'll be inclined to agree" simply as a matter of boundaries / borderline issues. I don't know if it's my arrogance, conceit or narcissism that tells me "it's only what I believe that counts" but when someone says "You're bad" I'll immediately counter with "Nope, I'm good" and vice versa.

But if someone puts it in a question or expresses an opinion or shares an observation (instead of trying to dictate my reality for me), I'm actually open to it. I don't mind being wrong once in a while. I don't mind being vulnerable from time to time. I know that I'm not perfect - heck, I'm not even good! LOL

Okay, on with the show.

Wow Ash. I feel a bit dumbfounded reading that. I feel angry too.

So while all of us (like almost the whole board) jolted upright and did the very things you've taught us to do with the tools you provide, and did not engage in your self flagellation, you skimmed over it all and only Nik got it by asking people to participate.

I just think that's all so incredibly unhealthy. I'm shocked. I'm hurt that my words which came from my heart (bc I care) were skimmed over and not given a thought bc you were intent on sinking into SI.

I suppose it was arrogant to think you'd listen to me more than anyone else.

Fuck Ash! You really wanted us to encourage that unhealthy shit - to ignore ALL of the Tools. This whole board. I'm sorry but that just undermines everything this board has been about IMO. You're entitled to your blow outs and melt downs, just like anyone. How COULD you abuse this place that YOU instilled the rules for! Abusing all of us! Not only does that send some kind of sick message to us all that it's ok to indulge, ask for and encourage eachother in SI, but it goes against everything you seem to have contempt for around here: people who don't face themselves and work on themselves.

How arrogant your last post was. Do you really think you're so different to us all? Man. I need to go and calm down.

I am so disappointed. You have such a responsibility here and if you aren't capable of adhering to it, fine, but to shove it in our face like you're something different to us all, someone who can ask for us to batter and burn you. I'm just totally floored.

In my post I listed ways that your personality can bother people. They happen to be ways in which I think we're alike, but they are all things you know.

Ok, now I'm going to pretend you are new here.



Can you use the 10 forms of twisted thinking on your original post?



(And if I'm still not getting it, I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are asking of us yet.)

Cross posted with Sarah.

I'm angry too, also not because you're intitiled to your own meltdowns, but because My response IS what it would have been to anyone who wrote "Woe is me, I'm an awful person who at the very core is bad." Fuck that, I have a hard time believing anyone is truly all bad. and another thought I had. You seem to be thinking about peoples perseption of you on the board, I don't know peoples perception of you in RL, but here anyway, Is it too much to think that people with BPD often have a hard time with authority and like it or not, you represent authority here? That maybe that is what a lot of what people think about you stems from? That people get scared the big bad overseer will come and take their priveldges away? That some people will have the oposite reaction and put you on a pedestal because you are "God". that you can't have a group of people, let alone a group of people with personality disorders, that authority figures don't get aa different response than a 'normal' person?

Sarah, you're hurt and angry - I get that. I think I even understand why you're hurt and angry (as expressed by the above snippets.) I didn't say that your words were meaningless to me. They arrived at a time when I was not receptive to them. How is that a rejection of you as a person? How is that anything worth being upset over? I chose to focus on something else, something I specifically wanted - that was my choice so how does my choice have the power to hurt and anger you?


Okay, you're really, really upset and seem to have determined that "I need to be upset and really focus on this in my own way for a little bit" is somehow abusive to you. I'm not sure I really understand that connection, that logic leap. I really don't.

The reason I wanted the unvarnished truth (a la Ellen) was for healthy purposes. The request for that truth came out in an unhealthy way.

I'm fine with the fact that ya'll didn't form a lynch mob (til possibly now!) and light torches to burn me at the stake (to beat me up as I'd requested) because you're right - that would have been unhealthy. I respect and appreciate that. I am still saying that I would have hoped more people would have been able to get past the clutter and get to the heart of the matter - as I try to do for everyone else here.

When someone says "Don't try to pump sunshine up my ass because it'll only piss me off" I can respect that while still conveying compassion, concern, etc. "Okay, you don't want sunshine - fine - but I'm not going to bury you alive." Some folks were able to do at least that much and I appreciate that they didn't make things worse. Didn't help much but didn't make things worse for me at that time.

I'm not quite sure where you believe I'm not interested in facing myself or working on myself. I'm not quite sure where or how you believe I'm shoving anything in anyone's face or where I've said I'm different from everyone else. Those pieces don't make sense to me, Sarah. I'm open to hearing your interpretation of how "I want to see what other 'bad traits' I may not be able to see to determine how they relate to this larger issue" is really a manifestation of abuse to the community, placing myself in a different category from everyone else here and refusal to face or work on myself.


Kari, no, it's not too much to think that. In fact, that was the basis of my original post. "You've put me on a pedestal, assigned all sorts of negative scary attributes to me, have labeled me a big bad overseer and I want to hear some specifics in that realm so I can have some items outside my own head to work with as I deal with this."

No, it's not too much to think that which is precisely the reason I changed my own community title ages ago to "Community Member" instead of "Senior Community Leader" -- to visually remind people that they needn't pigeonhole me into that Scary Overseer role, that I'm just a regular flawed human being like everyone else, no different.

I understand you're upset but I don't understand why. I really don't but I'd like to - if you want to talk about it.

I think I was upset because it sounded like you still wanted us to beat you up, not be honest, help you feel worse, instead of getting to what the real crux is, when I'm still not sure what the crux is. I think it has something to do with my point about authority figures, and I think I'm not up set anymore now that I understand better. (Have my own shit going on today, sorry if I can't be clear.)

I still don't appreciate being told I'm blowing smoke up someones ass when I haven't had a problem with my friend, she was acting like a person who was denograting herself with twisted thoughts and my friend sounded like she was in pain. Now that I know it has more to do with others perceptions rather that your own, correct me if I'm wrong there, that is a different conversation.

I think I've offered all I can for now. I'l reread later and see if I can understand better.

I need to think on this. I admit my post was off the cuff (my bad). I am mainly just so surprised that you could reach such depths of unhealthy behaviour. It was ok seeing you that way up till now, but reading your post that I reacted to it seemed you'd found solid ground again and just maintained that there was perhaps something good or right in what you were doing.

I'm out of my depth.

FWIW until now I didn't have any criticism of you other than that I think you allow yourself to become overloaded at times.

How are we meant to know to translate "Hey come on beat the crap out of me!" into "Please give me constructive critique". I really agree with what Kari wrote (had I had the presence of mind I've had written the same thing). I understand your need for constructive criticism (I feel the same way most of the time - don't give me fluff, give me something I can work with). But that sure wasn't what I heard you saying, and maybe that's me, but it seems only 2 people did (Nik and Ellen).

It seems to me that it was passive aggressive to say "Ok, you usually tear the shit out of me and right now I want the shit torn out of me, so let it fly abusive fuckers! Your target is willing and ready!"

Sorry if my language offends. It expresses my feelings and how I saw YOUR feelings at the time.

I'm still mulling this over though. My thoughts aren't coherent yet.

For me it boils down to



I tried, but I can't mind read, I took your words at face value as best I could.

Ash, I really appreciate your first post in this thread today (your 3rd post on page 2). It helps me better understand where you are at. I guess I understood enough to say something useful; but not enough to not feel puzzled. Not that I personally need to know, but still, I like being able to understand.