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I am starting a new thread related to this post in another thread so I don't hijack that thread away from its initial topic.




Candle, I was following you with interest here and it got me thinking about why I can come across as "invalidating" when I have difficulty with the victim mentality. It is true that I want to be above being hurt by things that most people would consider hurtful because I don't like feeling vulnerable. Perhaps my means of escaping from mental pain has resulted in transferring the hurt into a different disorder.

I cringe when I see the "poor you" types of replies that some people find validating. I can't internalize them when they are directed towards me and I have a hard time accepting that they could be true about others as well. Somehow it comes across to me as one person viewing another person as weak (as a victim) and I do not want to be perceived that way myself. I have to believe in my own strength or I would feel too weak and unable to cope as well as I do when I feel strong.

So I find that I have difficulty "validating" other people when the "validation" feels like a "put-down" to me. I also have trouble identifying with people who seem to be stuck in the "victim" role because I personally do not want to spend my time in that place. This can make me come across as "mean" from their perspective because I am not being "nice" in the way they want me to be towards them. Maybe my refusal to play the "victim game" causes other people to resent me. Perhaps people resent Ash in the same way.

I would love to hear other thoughts about this if anyone cares to share.

It comes down to perception.

If you (in a generic sense) can't put yourself in the other person's shoes then I doubt you can have any empathy for them. (all you's being generic you's).

Some people grow by being challenged because no one will get the best of them- damnit !

Others grow by being supported and encouraged.

Neither is right or wrong.

Just as it is invalidating for you to hear (implied or otherwise) that you are weak or having a weak moment, another will feel invalidated by being told they just need to 'toughen up' (which is an encouraging thing for you).

This is an interesting topic - thanks Candle for bringing it up and thanks Denim for plucking it out of the fray.

I'm headed home for the day but I will continue to think about this and try to get back to it tomorrow.

Maybe it is the reverse of the above statement that I seek to avoid - if I demonstrate empathy for someone then I must also be in their shoes - and it is unacceptable for me to feel sorry for myself.

I can't help thinking there's a grey.

Let me give you an example of some validation I got. (I may have told this story here before.)

This relates to a message board where I also see some of the people in "real life". I'd been really hurt by one person's treatment of me on the message board. I turned to another person for some advice. This in person. Somewhere in there as part of one of his thoughts for me, he mentioned the idea of me keeping posting. Here I attempted to put into words my lack of comfort with posting. He said, "I knew you would" (feel that way).

To me, that said it was okay to feel what I was feeling. That was validating.

But there's also something he didn't do. He didn't try to take and fix my stuff for me. He didn't reach out to me until I approached him, staying after I'd've usually left.

He very much did not feed into a victim mentallity. Both his words (the other things he said which I haven't quoted) and his actions said to me that I am strong and capable. I'm strong enough to deal with this.

But, yet, he also validated that it was normal and understandable to feel weak and hurt.

So, I think we can validate that it's okay to feel what they feel, including that it's okay to feel helpless or weak, without communicating that they are weak and helpless.

Ditto ^

I used to think people who challenged me were mean bullies (including you at one time, Denim ) I come from a therapy environment where I get the exact opposite of BPDR. I don't get told "this is what I see is wrong with you and this is how you should fix it". I feel so safe to expose all of me (because I've never been challenged) that I actually end up figuring it out and pointing out my own shit and then using my own inner wisdom to figure out how to deal with it. It's like intuitively I figure out for myself what's ok and what's not, about me. I can figure out what I can change and want to change and what I can't and don't. It's up to me.

Took me a long time to trust that those finger-pointers, telling me this is what I see is wrong with you, were doing so because they care and want to see me grow, as opposed to doing so because they wanted to hurt me just like my parents had by pointing out how flawed & damaged I was. I was wrong for just existing, for just being me.

These days I have come to accept both - being understood and empathised with; as well as being challenged and pushed. I actually like a combo - validation of what's happening for me and my feelings at the time and a gentle prodding into "this is what I see as the problem?"

I still can't say that I truly like being called out on my stuff (and honestly think who gives anybody the right to call anybody out on anything? It's all a matter of opinion and perspective) but I've accepted that if I want to be here , it is par for the course. This is what this place is about.

But yeah, this has been a toughy one for me to work through. I started out therapy, rejecting and throwing back all attempts at comforting & empathising with me - accusing my T of being a fake. I mean, nobody else had responded this way to my problems/feelings, so what was wrong with her? Then I switched to the opposite extreme (as a result of that therapy environment I realised that I actualy like to be validated, understood) I wanted empathy and support and to be treated in a gentle caring way, but I also didn't want to be enabled to stay stuck and so I recognised a need to be challenged at times but for the right reasons - not just cause somebody else is frustrated/pissed off with me and wanting me to change to appease them and to make their life better, but because I genuinely feel that they care about me and want what's best for me. I don't think I can genuinely feel somebody cares about me and wants whats best for me, unless they can empathise with me & relate to me in the first place. That's why I find the harsh, direct, In your face style of some not to my taste.

SO in effect I have pendulum swung from "treat me rough" to "treat me kind" to treat me with a mixture of both kindness and prodding, and I like where I'm at. Feels balanced to me.

That was ditto smilin (have been other posts since then. LOL)

OK~

My M Sis is a LOT like you both - Ash and Denim. She hardly EVER cries. She will tell me and her GF's, "If you want someone to coddle you while you cry on my shoulder about XXX leaving you because you did XXXXX to him, I am NOT that woman."

She doesn't hug or say, "I love you" to me, either. To do so would show her vulerability to me. And for whatever reason, she cannot do that. She's my big sis maybe?

But in my own weird way, I understand it.

My parents used to beat the shit out of her, my M Sis. She was the scapegoat in our family for every little thing that was wrong. And it was ALL wrong because our D was the best critic. Nothing was ever done "right" except what he had done. And our D DID IT ALL. No one's efforts were ever acknowledged.

So, back to my M Sis getting the shit beat out of her. She rarely talks about it, but acknowledges it happened. I watched her go from a carefree, young girl to one who COULD NOT, WOULD NOT show ANY form of weakness. She hates weakness to this day. To be weak, in her perception as a very young girl, would destroy her.

She tends to mirror our Dad who has NPD. I tend to mirror our Mother who had BPD. The thought of being and/or becoming a Narcissist scares the hell out of me; much like the 'victim mentality' scares the hell out of others on here.

So, being frightened of my own possible Narcissistic behavior, I either shun or avoid those here who remind me of something that happened in my past.

It troubles me deeply if I think that I might be doing something narcissistic. (Working through this issue, again, and it hurts.)

Perhaps showing vulnerability scares the hell out of others...

Denim said:





So are you really trying to discuss how to deal with those you feel are stuck? That are portraying victim mentality? And is victim mentality anything more than/beyond something that isnt your own issue or one you relate to?

Validating doesnt mean accepting. It only means acknowledging where they are. To me it's a little bit like radical acceptance. You dont have to agree. Matter of fact you can totally disagree, just dont make them feel that what they are feeling or experiencing isnt true or real- it is to them.

To me that is all validation is about. I hear it 'feels' like such to you..

you can then go on to say.. here is another side of the coin..

now they can toss it or not...

if they refute it.. more than likely they are stuck- perhaps if you cared about them you'd try to find out why. but that isnt anyone's responsiblity.

Yes, this is another one of those areas I have struggled with for awhile now. I think that the way I addressed this topic makes it sound black and white while there are obviously shades of gray. What I am trying to determine is where the perception of people like me being "mean bullies" comes from and how to change my own behavior so I don't seem "mean" when I am not feeling like I am being "mean" to anyone. I am trying to determine what a "best approach" scenario would look like.

Somehow I am thinking of Pooh stuck in Rabbit's hole after eating too much honey and the solution was to stop feeding him honey until he was ready to be pushed / pulled out of the hole. All his friends helped him out by shoving and tugging rather than by standing around sympathizing with him for getting stuck in the first place, although I seem to recall they may have spent some time with him keeping him entertained during the slimming down process. Now certainly that silly old bear did not mean to get stuck in Rabbit's hole, and yet there he was just as stuck anyway. Rabbit knew it would not be good for anyone if Pooh were to stay stuck and so the plan of attack was how to get him unstuck in a caring way. He did not tell Pooh that he was bad for getting himself stuck, he just recognized that there was a problem that needed to be solved. He also did not keep feeding him honey, since that was a contributing factor in the first place. Likewise, it did no good pushing and pulling until there was sufficient time for Pooh to slim down enough that the efforts to push and pull were successful.

I tend to think that it is acceptable to move to the problem-solving phase without needing to address the "how does that make you feel" psychobabble that mental health professionals have pulled on me in the past. What difference does it make how I feel about something when I need to focus my attention on taking steps to solve the problem? Some people seem unable to even acknowledge a problem until they have been soothed (by others or though self-soothing) and their feelings have been validated.

Perhaps the areas of my life that keep me the most stuck are those I have the strongest feelings about, making it clear that the feelings are part of the problem and not part of the solution. It also seems that the more I try to talk about how I am feeling, the more energy I give to those feelings and the more likely I am to be overwhelmed by them instead of having the strength to solve the problem, which would alleviate the feelings naturally.

I did not bring up this topic as a means of discussing why people are stuck and I certainly am not pointing at anyone for being stuck. This tends to be a sensitive issue that I would rather not bring into the discussion. I would like to keep the focus of discussion related to the "victim mentality" that I brought up initially.

I didnt realize I was off topic- but I appreciate your response.

To me you equated victim mentality with being stuck.. and with validation.



I don't get how victim role immediately equates you (or anyone) to 'mean' . So perhaps it helps if you explain your definition of mean. I also confuse how mean and resentful get rolled into one also. That's a lot of stuff all piled into one huge heap.

And, are you wanting to discuss dealing with someone in victim mode? It sounded like it, and then in your last post you seem not to.. so perhaps you can rephrase what you are wanting from this thread.

I wasn't reprimanding you for being off topic, I was merely trying to keep the thread from going off into something that would ignite a flame fest. I was steering away from the concept of being stuck because I have noticed in the past that when the topic comes up, people are often viewed as being judgmental and accusing others of being stuck. I don't want this thread to go there in light of all the other stuff going on right now. We don't need to get into where people are on the continuum of recovery in order to discuss the victim mentality.

I do want to deal with the concept of what to do when someone has a "victim mentality" since that is where I was initially going with this. This thread is based on my thoughts about what Candle wrote so it is possible I took her words in a different direction so that I am already off topic myself! LOL

As far as the perception of me being "mean" goes, I am not sure how I can define it because I don't think of myself as a "mean" person. What I have seen is my being labeled "mean" when someone else sees themself as a "victim" in an interaction with me. There are people who throw around words like "abuse" and "victim" with entirely different meanings that I would not attribute to the words and I am not sure where they are coming from at that point. It seems that those who choose to have a victim mentality need to find people to label as bullies (in the past and the present) so they can keep themselves believing they are victims.

I think there can be people so caught up in their victim mentality, that they hear direct, honest communication as "being mean" or gruff. These are people that need things sugar coated in order to receive the message. If the message is not received as they want it to be, then you may be painted black. It may be that these people are so caught up in the victim mentality that they can't let go and see it can be possible that the communication isn't abusive.

When I was caught up in the victim mentality in the past, I did it so I could feel better about myself. If it was someone else's fault and I was the victim, I could wallow in my victimhood while blaming the other for whatever I conceived as wrong. Where they sometimes wrong? Sometimes, yes. But by crossing my arms and crying "abuse', I was giving away power. I was getting stuck in the anger.

My thoughts were about 'perceived' victim mentality versus real and genuine recognition of ones' own hurts.

I don't think all recognition of hurt adds up to having a victim mentality.

I get annoyed when people stay in victim-mode for every little slight and as a way of existing over time.

I don't think that's the same as acknowledging that one is or has been hurt badly and may need help with that.

What I am observing is that both you and Ash believe yourselves to be 'bad persons at the core', and believe that showing vulnerability, i.e. capacity for feeling hurt, as weakness to be avoided at all costs.

I can't imagine either of you being accused of being continual victim-mode people or being weak, but that belief and perception of you is NOT based on a view of you as having a lack of capacity for experiencing hurt and pain.

My view is that the experience of fear and pain can send people to one of three places: 1) To a place of rigidly rejecting anything that smacks of vulnerability, so I'll be hard-core with myself (and often others); 2) To a place of continual victim-mode (where stuckness happens in conjunction with a way of being that basically causes every slight to seem a castrophy; or 3) to a healthy, balanced, integrated place in the middle.

Also, about the shadow self. Often people think that the shadow self is always the darker side of ones' being, but depending on what a person 'leads with' (especially if they are on one of the extremes), the suppressed shadow self can be the caring, loving tender (and, yes, sometimes vulnerable) side of a person.

Despite what one or another might represent (as the kids would say), we all have both. Since I typically lead with my softer side, I use the tools here to learn how to set up boundaries, maintain them, forgo magical thinking, and basically get 'wise' and acknowledge that, yes, sometimes I feel really angry, etc.. If I don't, it turns in as depression.

In my brother's case, he leads with the "I'm too hard-core and no one can hurt me, bad-ass side, (which can come across as 'mean'), but is actually turned outward in order to protect his suppressed loving, gentle side which he feels if it seeped out would unravel him.

Both of us are on extremes, and so are, imo, are a number of people here, but those same people are trying to move more toward the middle and that process is invariably not a smooth one, but can take people from one extreme to the other and back again as the battle wages to get to equilibrium and acceptance of both (as a part of ones' Self).

I'm also thinking that one process looks very foreign to someone struggling with the opposite extreme or end of the penduluum, and the grappling with themselves and others that is involved in those processes can look pretty ookie one to the other, yet the extremes also seem ironically (or not so ironically) drawn to one another as a framework of paticipants to work things out on.

This ultimate healing process, is therefore, rarely welcomed, relished and is very often born of conflict, which is only much later, (if ever) recognized as having been the productive learning/recovery experience that it, if we're lucky, it actually is/was or turns out to be.

:2cents

Candle, thank you for the further explanation as it does help me better understand where I am at and why I tend to find the other end of the pendulum so "ookie" (love that word even though the precise definition is obscure for me). Your words also help me see why I have such a hard time empathizing with a viewpoint that seems so counter-productive to recovery.

When I used to get punished as a child, I went through different coping strategies. At first I cried because that is what I did when I was hurt. When that did not work ("If you're going to cry, I'll give you something to cry about"), I decided that I would hold back my tears and not show weakness. I knew that eventually the blows would stop and I might have to live with the pain for awhile but the bruising would heal and the pain would not last forever. Wearing the marks of a beating was humiliating but I could usually cover them with clothing and make-up or sun glasses, thinking no one would know (until I was called down to the office and had to refuse to talk to a caseworker who did not know I would be killed if I talked). I thought I could handle it as long as no one did anything to make my father even more angry. As long as I stayed strong, I could get though the hard times and live to see better days.

My goal now, then, is to reach the point where being vulnerable is not so threatening by acknowledging that I have been hurt because I could not be as "hard-core" or "bad-ass" as I needed to be in order to protect myself more completely. At the same time, I don't want to view myself as a victim nor do I want others to see me that way. I can know I am strong because I am a survivor even though others may have seen me as weak enough to victimize.

Then there is the added challenge of understanding that others are working their way towards center from the opposite extreme without crossing over the center-line towards my current way of thinking. Ideally we should all reach a place of common understanding once we meet in the middle and until then we are not likely to relate to each other very well. For now, we can do what we need to do in order to avoid conflict.

So I still need to know how to avoid conflict with someone on the "other" side. I don't know how to respond when I am caught up in the drama of the victim mentality. Perhaps I am too scared to identify with their way of thinking and avoidance seems like the best action.

I have never been comfortable with the victim mentality. I am not talking about abuse because I have no experience with that, and of course make no judgments on anyone who has actually been abused.

But for many years self-help books fed into people's attitudes about being victims. People were quick to blame others for their problems. And thus they were not taking responsibility for any of their own actions. It was a very black-and-white response to a more complicated issue.

I know I have BPD. At this point in my life, I dont' care how I got it. My parents are dead, my grandparents are dead. Whatever they might have done, I don't blame them. I just have to learn how to cope with what I am left with.

This may sound very black-and-white, but it is how I feel about it.

The other thing is that I feel that in order to deal with this, especially when it comes to therapy, I would like to be understood and yes, validated. I don't always expect my T to agree with me. I dont' expect him to hold my hand or pat me on the back. But yes, I do expect from him validation of my feelings. I can't talk to him or discuss my issues if he has no understanding of where I'm coming from. I was invalidated as a child, and thus do not have a true sense of my feelings. So in therapy I need to know that I am understood so I can explore what I am feeling.

I don't believe that acknowledging that we hurt equates with being a victim. As I said, to me being a victim equals not taking responsibility for our actions. On the contrary, by admitting we hurt, we ARE taking responsibility. We are taking responsibility for our feelings. We can then move into a place of healing. It is not weak to admit we have feelings, that we hurt. By admitting this, we are in a place of strength and control. Once we admit our hurts and fears, we can then also move into a place of acceptance.

Yesterday in therapy I admitted to my T how much I have hurt over the past 40 years about being a person with mental health issues. It was a very freeing experience for me, for finally admitting and opening up as to how I feel. I never felt like a victim by sharing this with him.

These are just my thoughts and feelings about this topic.

I personally believe that validation comes in many forms. I can say, "Oh, to hell with it! I'm tired of this!", and if someone comes along and says the same thing, they have just validated me. If they come along and challenge me on this, when I needed validation, then I may've become upset in the past. I have found that when I am feeling victimy (feeling things from a victim-standpoint, feeling weak), which is becoming less and less, that when someone invalidates me, it really upsets me, that I only want to hear validating thoughts. The truth is, I am doing this based on feelings that I have and it isn't reality. It's ok for someone to have their own thoughts and perceptions and stand in a different place, and to invalidate me. And in reality, it doesn't make any difference if they do so, unless I believe it needs to make a difference.

I have thought that I had problems validating people, and the truth is, sometimes I do in the way they want. It's hard to validate people when you don't need that much validation yourself and don't really understand what people need a lot of times (although I do need some, I'm pretty low-maintenance on that end). But I do validate people all the time in different forms. I think this does have a lot to do with personality types. Also with people's backgrounds, and I'm sure a lot of other factors. I know mine has something to do with the fact that I rarely received any when I was young, also that I spent a lot of time with an apd.

However, I don't think one should be screaming for validation. It's hard to validate people on things they aren't doing right lol. "Well, you killed the cat, I know how bad you must feel," kind of thing. I think there are people who can validate on certain viewpoints and others who validate on others, and one can't be something they are not. At the same time, I plan to look into validation further as a skill I may want to learn. Who knows....

I don't think everyone should validate me. I think the people that validate me is sortof a checkpoint for where I stand. If Charles Manson is validating me, that means I'm in trouble.

This idea very much goes with what I was saying in the story I told. He recognized my hurt without doing anything to feed into a victim mentality, and I can recognize my own hurts without having a victim mentality.

Seems to me it's about owning my own hurts. The victim mentality would put ownership of those hurts on someone else. I don't have to do that, nor do I have to deny my hurts. I can own them as my own, and, from there, work towards healing.

Yes, I think when I was younger, that I was much more in touch with my softer side - that the years took their toll, and I put up layers of walls. Not to say that I don't feel for others all the time, I do (and I also cry on occasion and hurt for others). I'm just more hardened in action and thought - more untrusting, more non-believing. And it's not something I'm choosing to do (although in a way, it is, because I think I can bring out my softer side again, though it will take awhile, and it will take work), it is just the way I was conditioned to be moreso, through environment mainly. At the same time, I don't gag when someone is huggy-kissy and whatnot, I think it's nice actually. I don't see that as a weakness at all, I see it as showing love and caring for the other. I just never really think of doing it (although I do do it with my bf). My mind is too conditioned toward other avenues right now.

I think the key is to validate what someone is feeling NOT their mentality.

Does that make sense?

Validating another's feelings can mean the world to someone who's been told most of their life (by parents, loved ones, yes, even themselves) that what they are feeling is "wrong".

Some get to the point where they don't even know what they are supposed to feel.

That takes a ton of work to get back in touch with - one's feelings. The need to be 'validated' on what one is feeling is a pretty strong need at the beginning, I think. The desire to be heard and understood.

Perhaps a way to deal with someone who is in the victim mentality mode is to validate how they FEEL. "I can see that you are in a lot of pain". (Jody told me this one.)

There are other ways to validate another without reinforcing the victim mentality, I think.

I don't like to indulge the victim mentality, and there have been times when my lack of patience comes through loud and clear, like in this thread. I still haven't learned how to respond in a way that would be helpful to people who seem bound and determined to remain stuck, so I just don't respond. Not the ideal solution, perhaps, but sometimes it's not a bad idea to just give up.

As for validating people's feelings when I really can't relate, I try to keep in mind the specific emotions that are likely to be felt in particular circumstances. When people die, for example, it's common to feel grief and sorrow. Even if I don't share someone's feelings after a certain person's death, maybe I can conjure up memories of a time when I felt sorrow.

EmJay

GH, yes, that does make perfect sense. Unfortunately, there are those who feel unless you agree with them, you're invalidating them. Those are the people who are stuck. And Ellen, you're right. I also think it's about owning your own hurts. Jody said something similar in another thread, and I think that's the direction we should aim towards.

Actually, according to Wikipedia, and several other resources, validation is known to be this:

In psychology and human communication, validation is the reciprocated communication of respect which communicates that the other's opinions are acknowledged, respected, heard, and (regardless whether or not the listener actually agrees with the content), they are being treated with genuine respect as a legitimate expression of their feelings, rather than marginalized or dismissed.


It does have to do with opinions as well as feelings.

Example:

A: I hate her! Make her stop being mean to me! I can't take it anymore, I just want to kick her in the shins!

B: I understand you're upset about that. Looking at it from the perspective of her being stupid or wrong, it's completely understandable that you're upset. Perhaps if you shifted perspective ...

A: I don't want to! She was wrong! There's no other way to look at it, period! I hate her!

B: Are you sure there's no other way to look at it?

A: You're an asshat because you're not validating what I'm saying! You're completely missing my point. It's not about me, it's about how wrong she was!

B: I understand that you think she was wrong ...

A: It's not that I think she was wrong, she WAS wrong! Dammit, what's wrong with you? Why aren't you listening to me??

An informal poll - is Person B providing validation? Where or how could Person B provide better validation? Without changing anything Person A says, what could be changed about Person B's words to be the most validating?

After reading all the posts so far, I see I have been replying to the validation aspect of what Denim wrote and how that is something she finds difficult if some one has said 'poor you' over this or that.

I was not very clear at all in my thoughts.

Validation that comes with a poor you doesnt imo equate to victim mentality. If someone is sick and/or gone thru a hard time, a poor you is damn well justified. If they have been overwhelmed or are feeling out of place/sorts, again, a poor you can be very validating, imo.

I think the problem is, and the point I was trying to make that 'victim mentality' is really pretty subjective. Why are you classifying it victim mentality- cause you dont relate (which I referred to earlier) ?

Validation is considered a very necessary part of healing, especially for someone with BPD. It comes in many forms and more often than not it has little to do with the receiver hearing 'poor you'.

It also has very little to do with agreeing with someone- another point well highlighted above.

I think a number of people have addressed these 2 issues quite clearly above.

Imo, it has a lot to nothing more than being heard.

So, if you feel someone is being a victim, why not ask for clarity - why not find out if that is the case? You might - more than likely will be - surprised at the fact there is a perception issue going on.

Why not find out if what you THINK you are saying is being heard ?
I surely think it would be an interesting exercise.