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OK, problem solving here:

So what are three actions that the Board as a whole can take to solve "the problem" of those on here with victim mentality?

1- Kick those who suffer from it after a period of x months and/or years off.
2- Tell everyone who seems to be stuck in it to get over it. Ignore them, ostratcize them if they do not.
3- Validate their feelings and work with them through the stages they need to go through at their own pace to get through.

What can the Board do as a whole to solve "the problem" of those who refuse to show vulnerability?

Anybody want to define those?

Hey, EVERYONE, perhaps this is one of those critical pendulum swings where those that see themselves as victims need to understand those who cannot show vulnerability and vice versa.

Ash, at this point we are aware that you connect with Denim Blue on some level. I'd bet my house, my bank accounts that you'd relate really well with my M Sis, too.

So, what are your doing to relate to those who feel victimized? Is that so abhorrent to you? In that reaction of abhorrence, I think YOU will find YOUR answer.

My 2 fricking cents worth.

GH, maybe this is a moment where you can see the point of view of your sister, instead of critizing those who may be a bit like her in this aspect. You seem to have a mighty big paintbrush that you're painting Ash and Denim Blue with.

Yes, Kari, I can.

You see, I got to be the witness to my M Sis being abused. And I got to watch as she refused to cry; refused to show any vulnerability at all.

"I'll give you something to cry about!!!" If I only had a dollar for everytime I heard that one.

It wasn't only my D that targeted my M Sis, it was my M, too.

Her coping mechanism was to become a 'hard ass'. Someone who makes lemonade out of lemons.

Mine? I went through much of the same abuse; only I was able to see it as the CHILD ABUSE that it was.

Does it matter now? No. Except that I see the pendulum swings that an abusive, neglectful childhood can cause.

It is the "pot" calling the "kettle" black, here, guys.

Come on!

I can see this pov, as I have some paranoid tendencies myself, and the fact that I didn't trust and still don't fully trust anyone. I think the side for would be that irl, a lot of people take more of the little validation, problem-solving approach, so it's kindof hard to say something that is seen as "normal" and mainstream would be something that wasn't accepted here, since what we are aiming for is healthy living, and I can't live healthfully if I can't be around people who do little validation and more problem-solving. I know my bf cares a heckuva lot, and he does very little validation, nor does he need any.

On the other side, this is a site for mentally-ill people, and possibly they aren't ready to be met with "normal", that obviously some will need more validation. Overly-sensitive is more the rule here, I've noticed if I leave one arena or forum and come here, I'd better watch my step, because things are a bit uptight when compared to "normal" - wait a minute, a lot uptight. And that's ok if that's what works here, and that's what needs to be. I'm simply comparing this experience to other, more "normal" experiences. I can say things twice as "rudely" in other forums, or with irl friends, and be met with laughs, play, and great discussion. People just consider me a "fireball" lol.

I think perhaps it's an understanding that some people aren't ready to hear me. I can challenge say Candle or Sarah and be met with comments that lead me to better understand them and their pov (and learn a lot of things), but if I do the same to some people who haven't been here as long or haven't grown in certain ways, I am doomed to a pit of hell lol (and then sometimes I don't know what to do in response to that). And I think discussion with some of the old-timers had really done a world of good for me, as far as letting down my own guard a bit and relaxing. It helps me to gain inner-peace to see how they handle themselves amidst someone who obviously doesn't trust them or anyone else.

But yes, I believe it can be a trust issue or questioning someone's motives for being there when they aren't validating as much. I still question a lot of people's motives when I haven't read many of their posts and threads (for ex/ Nik the other day).

In response to GH-

Well, I think that a lot of people have given an effort to those they feel are "stuck" (in other words, for the most part, people chose #3 and gave it an effort). It's only after I have given more than I can give (which right now, I admit isn't that much, I'm still taking a bunch more than I'm giving) and the chaos continues (and grows worse), that I begin to get edgy and start using more non-effective methods of communication in order to try to "stun" them into thinking about what I'm saying. And that just seems to pee them off worse....they're lapping up the board's resources as fast as they can get them... there's some vampiric action going on, and I don't think I believe they are doing anywhere near their best to follow the board rules or use the tools. Yes, I suppose I draw that conclusion over time and with the fact that they continue to delve into the same chaotic messes. And as I said in another thread, it's hard to validate someone who continually cries wolf. How many times do they need validation before they are ready to trust that something else will work other than what they are doing? I think at that point they possibly need punishment instead of validation, as they are being enabled.

In effect, though, I don't think I am going to try that approach again. It doesn't seem to work, neither does effective communication all the same.

I'm think about this... and honestly, how much relating are we to do? If I relate too much, that will put me right back where I was (as we know that environment does have large influence on thought), yet I do have an understanding I believe of where the victimized stand and how they feel. Isn't that enough? We are recovering and/or recovered borderlines, not people who weren't born without the genetics to be. Imo, yes some validation is necessary (although I can see that simply being here and seeing progress and action from others is enough validation to make me believe they care), but guidance is more important than validation - guidance from people who have made is somewhere is more important than validation - guidance from people who set the example. I don't want someone to relate by wallowing in the ditch with me. And I do see that that is what a lot of the CL's and Ash are offering, is guidance and trying to be a good example for others.

Yes, I know this is my fourth post in a row, and I know it annoys some people that I post so many times, yet I continue to have thoughts on the matter, so I guess it's better than not having any thoughts at all. Perhaps I could look into consolidating all of my thoughts on the matter before posting. HaHa.

My opinion after exploring this whole thing is that bpdr needs both. We need people who do lots of validation and we need people who do little, for people who are in different stages of recovery to identify with. To go from extremely victim-minded to healthy, there are a lot of steps in between, and we need people here to identify with for each step of the way. We need people who do more validating, and we need people who do not-as-much validating, because irl, that's the way it is. And I think we do have that. It's all greys, not so black-and-white. People will normally be drawn to the ones they can identify with at different stages.

I noticed that the thread took on a different direction but I was fine with where it was going because I was getting something from the discussion. I am not sure I was as comfortable reading when the topic was more personally related! LOL

I don't know what the worst-case scenario would be here if people saw me as weak and vulnerable. I suppose people might not know how to approach me and I would get the "poor you" replies that I don't like to hear. It would not feel helpful for me to be here if I did not think people could be direct with me for fear of saying the wrong thing. One of the hardest things for me is to hear people say they are concerned about me because that means I must seem pretty messed up and unable to cope. I want to trust that people will be sincere with me and tell me what they are really thinking without being worried about how I will handle the truth. I don't like being lied to so I need people to be honest with me. Having people tell me what they think I want to hear is not helpful.

I don't think I have come across as a victim too much but I am afraid that others will label me that way if they see me as a victim. When I share some of my life experiences with people, they could end up seeing me as an abused person because I experienced abuse. They would also know how bad I was because I was punished severely - good people are not punished that way since no one goes into a rage against a good person for no reason, there is always a reason someone becomes angry enough to act in a violent way. I have a difficult time sharing things in 3D because it is too hard to see the way people look at me once they know certain things about me. I don't like seeing the sadness or pain in their eyes because it makes me uncomfortable knowing that I contributed to the emotions that show in their eyes. I don't want anyone else to hurt just because I am hurting.

I have to admit that I often question my perception of reality and I need to do reality checks with other people. Maybe it is my fear of being crazy that leads me to distrust my own perceptions. I always weigh the source carefully so I don't accept just anyone's perception of reality as my own but I do need to check my perceptions against other people's perceptions before I feel confident enough to know that I am not confused about some things. I suppose that at times I guess at what other people are thinking without confirming it with them and yet I try not to make assumptions about what people are thinking. There have been times when I figured people would naturally think one thing and I came to learn that they were not thinking what I expected them to be thinking so it was my own thinking that was different.

I forgot to address this part above:


Since people are not able to think similarly, they will use their own thought patterns when thinking about me and come to conclusions as if I were acting with the same motivation they do. For example, I had a supervisor two summers ago who went to get breakfast every morning while the rest of us were doing round-up. Since it took her so long to pick up breakfast every morning, the rest of us ended up catching all the horses, feeding all the horses, and saddling all the horses, including those she was assigned to saddle. Meanwhile she was sitting in her car drinking coffee or hot chocolate while we missed out on those things since we did not get to go to the lodge for breakfast. One morning someone else went to get breakfast and my supervisor was there for round-up. I helped catch the horses, I tied on nose bags to feed grain, and I saddled my horses. Some of the horses would finish their grain while we were busy saddling and start to chew on their burlap nose bags so that there were holes in the bags which was letting their grain spill on the ground. Since my supervisor did not replace the nose bags as I would have done, I thought we should at least make an attempt to remove the bags before the horses had a chance to chew too much on them. I went around and started pulling feed bags off and my supervisor told me that I should be saddling horses instead. When I told her that I had already saddled my assigned horses, she indicated that not all the horses were saddled (hers still needed to be saddled since we thought she would be doing it herself that morning) and so I dropped the nose bags and saddled her horses instead. Later she claimed that I was pulling nose bags because it was the "easiest" job instead of saddling the horses. I was typically the one to take the jobs no one else wanted for fear of hard work so I could not understand why she would think that. Then it occurred to me that if she had been the one pulling nose bags, it might have been to avoid doing harder work and so she looked at what I was doing with her own motivation attached (which was far from mine).

I have noticed that people often view other people in the same light they view themselves and they transfer their own motivations onto other people as a result. It does not matter what my own personal motivations are for my actions as they will not understand those anyway.

this is why asking 'why did you...?' and then listening to the answer is so important

Denim,
I think you are still putting up walls to protect the hurt little child that you were. You refuse to accept that you are a victim because that would make you look weak and vulnerable to attack. You use your other personalities to guard the real you - the hurt, vulnerable, scared little child. You do no sympathize with those who openly admit to being victims because you do not want to open yourself up to vulnerability. You know that you are also a victim but you can not let on that you could possibly be so "weak" as to let someone "victimize" you so you put on a tough face and try to help those "weak victims" to toughen themselves up, just like you did. If I remain stoic and show no emotion and use these other parts of me to hide the real me, no one will know how scared, vulnerable and hurt I really am. Maybe you should try to get in touch with that hurt child. Give her the validation that she needs. She is a victim but she doesn't always have to be. She can recover. She can become stronger and move on from the past. But she needs someone to believe in her first. That someone is you, Denim. Don't be ashamed of her - acknowledge her and guide her to safety.

I think there is a huge difference between victim and survivor. (as I think Denim Blue mentioned earlier.) A victim says "Poor me, look what happened to me, I will never get beyond it." A survivor has been through the same shit, but found ways to cope. Some healthy, some not, but they don't blame others and the can take pride in the surviving.

I know how Trinity loves to see this but I thought it would be a good place to drop this into the discussion:

When we talk about "victim mentality" I think it's important for us to keep the "victim loop" action words in the diagram in mind.

I think when we talk about being "stuck" we're generally talking about "repeating the victim loop" instead of making different choices, instead of altering intentions to move into the accountability loop.

Regardless of what a person has been the victim of (trauma, abuse, mean words, etc.) that does NOT automatically shunt them into the victim mentality. Being a victim of something is different from being in the victim loop / operating within the victim mentality.

Victim mentality = ignoring, denying, blaming, rationalizing, resisting, hiding

Ahhh, I see - so it is more a matter of coping skills. Remain a victim or move on and be a "survivor." So, when you can't relate to someone who demonstrates "victim mentality" you really are saying that you don't understand why they are resistant to moving out of the victim loop? I guess then the answer would be that for some people it just takes time. For some people, they need to nurturing and attention and sympathy that comes with being a "victim." Eventually, as they get stronger, they will move out of the victim mentality. Hopefully. But I still don't think you should "look down on" anyone for demonstrating victim mentality. They are just stuck and comfortable with being there for now. As they learn more skills, they will move on.

What if I said "you're absolutely on target here, NAM"?

If BPDR is about recovery (aka moving out of the victim loop) and someone is clearly expressing their comfort for the victim mentality, not ready to make the changes necessary to move into the accountability loop, need more time to be nurtured, get attention, feel sympathized with, etc., is that really in alignment with what BPDR is about?

If I said that BPDR = Accountability Loop, it's perfectly understandable that people existing in the Victim Loop feel left out, feel ignored, feel slighted -- because they're not part of the 'fun' that's going on with the recovery stuff, in the Accountability Loop. I totally understand why there is animosity, why people want change (to feel comfortable, to get what makes them feel safe in their loop). I get it, I understand it, I accept that the thought patterns exists, I have a logical understanding of why the thought patterns exist. But that doesn't mean I have an interest in meeting people in the Victim Loop. It doesn't mean I like the Victim Loop. It doesn't mean I want to make accommodation for the Victim Loop stages.

When we look at the diagram, they are two separate loops that overlap slightly, at the one section called INTENTION. If one exists in Loop A and another exists in Loop B (whichever one is which, it doesn't really matter), is there really an ability or option to relate between the two loops? They're so different from each other. They don't flow together. They hardly share any commonality at all.

We generally accept that newbies arrive in the Victim Loop (with a few exceptions) and we give leeway for them to learn about the Accountabilty Loop, see it in action, practice it and then move out of the Victim Loop and into Accountability. Those who resist moving into Accountabilty may truly not be ready to do so. I don't begrudge those people that choice! I really don't. It may not seem that way but I firmly believe in the power of choice. If you're not ready, you're not ready. That's fine. I accept that. But I don't have to move out of my Loop to join you in yours. This board doesn't have to give up its loop because you're more comfortable in yours.

The loops don't overlap except for INTENTION. Someone who doesn't intend to move out of their loop has no connection to the Accountability Loop. Do they really belong here at that point? Yes, BPDR is a great place with great people and the power of positivity is wonderful around here. But if someone continues to insist on existing in the Victim Loop, and there's not even a commonality of intention, are they really ready to be here? Are they really interested in or capable of doing anything in the Accountability Loop?

I guess my answer to Denim (about how to relate to people insisting on remaining in the Victim Loop despite countless role models, living examples of and discussions about the Accountability Loop) is that I don't know. I mean, I know how -- the short answer is to drop out of Accountability and join them in Victim so we can better relate to each other because we're on the same wavelength. But if I want to (and trust me I do) remain in (return to) the Accountability Loop, I don't know that it's possible to truly relate on a meaningful level to someone in a completely different loop with divergent intentions.

This is interesting because I see some people pointing fingers at others and saying others have a victim mentality, while actually demonstrating the action words on the victim loop themselves. (ignore, deny, rationalize etc.) So my guess is that people often don't recognize which loop they are on, even when presented with a clearcut diagram. I also find it interesting that some people who are clearly on the victim loop don't appear to be on it to others due to their style of posting. If someone is ignoring and denying and rationalizing, they may present as being "tough" or "emotionless", opposite from what "looks" like victim mentality. Isn't it possible to be on the victim loop without demonstrating a "poor me" attitude?

Oh, so you're saying that some people choose to remain in the Victim Loop and you can't relate to them because you choose to remain the accountability loop? I totally get that. That is why I took a break from therapy and from bpdr for a while - I realized that I couldn't let go of my disorder. I wanted to be a "victim" and have other people take care of me, worry about me, feel sorry for me. Then the break up with my BF last weekend made me grow up a little and realize that in the end I am the only one who can take care of me. So I am getting motivated to make the changes I need to make. Unfortunately, I am still in sort of a "mourning period" over the loss of the relationship so I keep dipping back into the "woe-is-me, I suck and nobody likes me" type of "victim mentality." But the intent IS there - I DO intend to start working on me. I just need some time. I need those of you who are comfortably in the accountability loop to lead by example. You don't have to join me in the victim loop to help me get out of the victim loop - just throw me a line, guide the way to the accountability loop. You do that by demonstrating your own, healthy methods for coping with your struggles. Show those of us who are stuck in victim mode that it is possible to get out of that loop. How did you do it? You can't say you were never in the "victim loop." Ash, with your "what's going on" thread I think you may have dipped into the victim loop a little. So how did you get out of it?

Some people could have some processes going on in the victim loop and some in the accountability loop. I think that's where I stand right now. I've also seen perhaps where pointing the finger (although it's not something I would recommend, nor is it effective), can lead to showing one what they are doing themselves. I believe I've seen some good irl examples of people who were in the victim loop but never exhibited a "poor me" attitude. The processes I think are separate from attitude. Yea, I'm sure there are things going on with me that I don't recognize... no doubt I am still doing a lot of things that would be considered in the victim loop. I'm sure later I will probably get a good laugh at how foolish I was today lol.

OOohhh, April, I have to agree with you.

Someone with Narcissitic Personality Disorder comes to mind. They deny they have a problem, they blame it on someone else, they rationalize their behavior, they justify it.

Usually the person with NPD isn't miserable, it is just the people around him/her.

My T warned me that many, many recovering PD's replace the Borderline aspect with another PD - like narcissism.

In some ways, it seems to me that saying, "well this is my Genuine Self; this is who I am and if it hurts you and others, tough. You are the one with the problem (it's all your fault/stuff) not ME. I'm recovered." is narcissitic and stuck in the "victim cycle".

I don't think it is possible to be "recovered". I think it is a continuim that people will be on for the rest of their life. I think there will be set backs when one on the road to recovery feels overwhelmed and stressed to the max.

So, yes, April I can see what you are saying or at least I think I can. Feel free to clarify.

Because, well, where is the self examination in that?

It's likely that if more than one person gives you the same feedback, there needs be some introspection on one's behavior, I think.

Discounting the group with "well this is a Forum of people with BPD" is a copout; a denial of one's behavior.

If you feel singled out by my posts Ash, perhaps I am singling you out. It is because what has recently happened on here; with you and others.

See, I will say it directly to you out of respect for you and ME. I view you as a peer and as a leader and as a human being capable of mistakes. I don't think you have all the answers. I don't think you have some impotent ability to "see through all the crap" either. Authority doesn't intimidate me although I do respect it and understand the need for it.

I think advertising yourself as "recovered" sets you up for a failure of sorts and as a target.

Before this goes too much further astray, I'll step out of this discussion completely. I think there are too many sub-issues flying around in here for me to be part of this discussion. Despite my careful and deliberate choice of words, it's possible I'm getting too wrapped up in my own POV, drawing on my own impressions that I'm projecting into the words. This discussion seems to be devolving into a "oh, new material I can rip to shreds & fling back in other people's faces" contest. I'm not outright excluding myself from this but I will try to take a look at how it might apply to me.

I'd suggest a CC with you, Julie, but I honestly don't have the strength or time right now to slog through it all and stand strong against the onslaught of projections. I get that I'm representative of all things NPD and evil just like your sister. I just can't do anything about that for you right now. I'm sorry.

Denim, I hope you're able to find some answers. I would like to find those answers myself. Meanwhile, you don't like people saying they're concerned about you AND you 'insist' on directness & honesty from those you deal with. What if I'm direct & honest when I say that I'm concerned? If I'm concerned but know you don't want to hear it, should I be indirect and slightly dishonest? Which side of that 'directive' should be followed: direct/honest or don't-be-concerned?

Well, that's really a shame ash. I think I brought up a valid point regarding your diagram, yet you are choosing to bow out.

I'll use Candle's post as an example. Candle says her brother hates the victim mentality, and sees Candle as having that victim mentality. From my perspective, it appears that Candle's brother fits the victim loop and Candle fits the accountability loop (again, my view).

I was interested in this thread because it hit home with me. I think in many ways I am on the victim loop too, but I despise it so much that I make a conscious effort to appear opposite. For example, I have had a very traumatic past, but I never write about it or share it with others because I don't want pity, I don't want people to perceive me as weak, I don't want niceties. And of all people, I should have empathy for those who have had similar trauma, but I find that very difficult at times. I have my pride and I feel I get respect when I am able to suck it up, and thus feel little respect when others don't do that. I think it comes from growing up without validation for truly horrific things, and other people telling me "I'll give you something to cry about" when it WAS something to cry about already. But I will be the first person to say it wasn't all that bad, I mean I could have died, so it's not so bad, really, it could have been worse.... (not validating my own real experience, rationalizing, denying, ignoring.)

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the diagram, and this post in general, I don't know.

April, I'm not bowing out because of anything you said. I'm not hiding from anything you've said. I'm stepping out because it appears my participation is diverting attention away from Denim's original topic of dicussion through attempts to get me to see stuff. I don't have a problem seeing stuff, being asked to look at stuff, etc. but not at someone else's expense. This thread is about what Denim raised - not my perceptions, thoughts, blind spots, etc. I want to see the answers as much as Denim does which leads me to believe it's best for me to step out so the spotlight can return to the topic instead of my stuff. I never stop working on my stuff and I don't want to hinder anyone else's work on their stuff. I hope you can appreciation the difference and my reasons for stepping out.

So, I understood the original topic of this thread to be about dealing with others who are in victim mentality.

So, looking at the diagram Ash posting, which has accountability loop at the alternative to victim loop, I'm thinking, so, how can we help someone move to the accountability loop?

I'm thinking that sometimes, what's needed is an understanding of separation of stuff. Before I can hold myself accountable for my stuff, I have to understand what's my stuff and what isn't.

So, when helping someone else, I think we can help them with that "recognize" step in the accountability loop, by helping them see what is and isn't their stuff. Sometimes that may mean something like, "You made the choices that put you in the situation" or "you are responsible for dealing with your own feelings". And sometimes that may be "what he did was his choice, you aren't responsible for his choice". Or even the two together, "You aren't responsible for his choice, but you are responsible for your own choices.".

If someone is in a place of thinking it's either all their fault, or not their fault at all, we can help them find the grey of separation of stuff.

I have been reading the posts regarding validation and the thought comes to mind that for some, it seems that to ask for validation is almost like a "weak" thing. Maybe I'm perceiving it wrong. I know for me, I have had a lot of invalidation in my life. I don't necessarily expect people to agree with me on everything, but I'd at least like to be understood. I had a situation arise with my T about this a few weeks ago. It was regarding the problem I had with the student intern. He was trying to get me to see that my thinking was irrational. I couldn't hear his words. Before I could listen to him, I needed to know that he understood why I felt the way I did. I didn't expect him to agree with me, but I did want validation of my feelings. At that time, then I could go on to discuss rationality, etc. I think the concept of validation has to do with what we have experienced in our lives. For some, we have had a lot of invalidation throughout our lives and need to felt heard. At least that is how it is for me. I don't think this is a negative thing. I don't expect to get constant validation here on the board. But I guess I do need a little bit of it. Then I can go on to problem-solve. I don't know if others feel this way.