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That is an assumption on your part, Ash. That I think my Sis 'evil'. I don't.

Since this whole thing went down with my Dad, she and I have spent days and days together. We've shared a room in a hotel while out West. We've shared a room at our D's house. Hours and hours on the phone. Hundreds of e-mails...

During this time, she's gone to a T, gone on an AD and has listened to me. And me to her. I understand her struggles better, while she understands me and what I have been through. She and I have worked through some very tough issues.

I do not perceive my Sis as "evil". Please do not assume that I do.

I have understood her need to not "coddle" anyone in a victim mentality for years and years. I've been on that side of the pendulum swing myself.

It wasn't until I went to a DBT Therapist (the one whole told me "courtesy and respect at all times") that I learned what it meant to be "validated". My T "validated" me. He showed me how this valuable skill is done. He taught me how to validate myself.

Recently, my Sis' BF who has NPD pulled one of his usual nasty stunts and my Sis, who is tired of making lemonade out of lemons, has had enough.

My Sis knows what it feels like to be a "victim". She will tell you that she is a "victim" of a man with NPD.

Talk about a pendulum swing. :shock And it coming back to a more middle, gray place for her.

She has a more empathy now. Yesterday, a woman put an ugly door dent in my Sis' car. My Sis noticed that the other woman was shaking and visibly upset. She didn't yell, scream or be in anyway nasty to the other woman. She was effective and called the police who blocked the woman from leaving so insurance information could be gotten. In fact, she e-mailed me that if the woman had burst into tears, my Sis would have said, "no big whoop. Let's be friends!"

So Denim maybe:

Validation seems to be key for so many to learn how to step out of the role of victim mentality to one of accountability.

Maybe it takes a pendulum swing over to the side of "victim" to get that whole movement started. I dunno.

I agree with April that Candle seems to be in a place of accountability while her Bro is stuck in the victim mentality side.

I am following the discussion and I appreciate everyone's contribution. I want to address issues that were addressed specifically to me.



I don't have a sense of there being a "hurt child" inside of me so if there is one it is not something I have awareness with. I don't know if the child "aspects" are "parts" of me because I don't see them as hurt children - they are very different from the way I was as a child. I don't think I could really pay attention to how I was hurting as a child because I did not know that certain things should not have happened to me since they were my experiences with reality. It was not until after I had already had certain experiences that I learned how wrong it was for me to have done certain things or have certain things done to me. When things happened, I just got through those hard times the best I could. I did not even know that I was going crazy.

I do agree that I have built walls as a means of protection, though. I have been told that most of my life, beginning in early elementary school. My sixth grade teacher said I was a "clam" so he constantly tried to get me out of my "shell" since I was the sort of child who did not speak unless spoken to and then I did not say much. I could not look him in the eye and I used "sir" even though he said that was not necessary. The only time he ever sent me to the principal's office was when I "fell asleep" in class and could not be awoken (I had passed out drunk). Other than that he dealt with any trouble I caused without sending me to be paddled and he never called my parents to tell them what I had done (before that when I got in trouble at school I would also be in trouble at home). He tried so hard to gain my trust and yet I could never trust anyone no matter how much I liked them. I still don't trust people.



I prefer people to be honest with me, even when they have something to say that may make me uncomfortable. I don't like hearing people say they are concerned about me but I would rather hear it if that is the truth than for people to be indirect and slightly dishonest. I understand that there are times people may say things for my own good, even though it makes me uncomfortable.

I find the accountability loop thing interesting because there are times when someone appears to be going through the process of self-examination and yet they are really blaming their past for their present behaviors. These are the people who still blame their parents (even after their parents are dead), when they have been adults for twice as long as they were children and they use this blaming as rationalization and justification to support their role as victim. They deny that they have a problem when they resist owning the problem so that they are still attributing their present day problems to their past. These people are unable to learn when they resist feedback that indicates that they need to take personal responsibility for themselves instead of putting their effort into analyzing how their past is to blame. They are stuck when they ignore their personal accountability rather than recognize that they are personally accountable.



As long as the "validation" does not give someone permission to blame others, it can be a positive thing. If the "validation" only serves to support a person's inability to take ownership of their own problems, then I think it can be misused. To some people, it seems that to be "validated" means that others should accept them in their flawed condition so that they don't have to change.

To me, validation is more of an empathy. In the example of my Sis: Ok, you dented my car door, that isn't okay however, I can see that you are upset. The responsible/accountable thing to do is to stay here until the police arrive, give me your insurance information and make amends by having your insurance company pay to fix my door.

Person A: This is the worst day possible!

B: What is going on? What is happening that this is the worst day?

A: Co-worker D took credit for my project and now D got the promotion! I should have gotten that promotion!

B: I can see that you are angry and upset about this. What are you thinking about doing?

This is not a validating statement:

B: A just snap the hell out of it! You weren't going to get the promotion anyway. I'm the one that should have gotten it!

Having empathy for someone does not include enabling them to make poor choices on how to act on their feelings.

A: I am so mad I want to smack that woman in the face!

B: Yeah, go slap her! She's a bitch!

No.

It is okay to validate how another might be feeling. It is okay and validating to listen while they talk about it. And it is validating to the other if you allow them to bounce ideas of how to handle the situation off of you. It is respectful to let them make a decision on how to act on that emotion or perhaps not act or something else.

(I would encourage someone to find a better solution if the friend decided to 'slap the bitch'!)

Starting to ramble here. Am I making sense?

Feelings are never wrong. No one is a victim for having feelings. Having one's feelings validated means experiencing being heard and understood as opposed to being told. Being told, which refers to being given another perspective or being told how to feel, or being told what to do, is invalidating because it implies that the original feelings are wrong or unjustified.

Even if the feelings in question arose due to twisted thinking, the feelings themselves always have a right to exist. To enter into another person's reality, even for a moment, is to accept and hear their painful feelings, even if the twisted thinking is obvious to us.

Once a person is truly heard and acknowledged, it can be surprising how their energy will suddenly be freed up (rather than going around and around trying desperately to be acknowledged) and often they themselves will untwist their thinking, or at least be agreeable (it never hurts to ask) to hearing another perspective.

Questions are our friends, as GH showed in her post.

I'm starting to believe the problem is more in how people are trying to express what they need or where they are. It seems that many people have been so ingrained to 'be strong' that any sign of 'im hurting' is considered playing victim.

Maybe some community work needs to be done around phrases that reek of 'victim' vs 'hurt'. I can't say if this is worthwhile or not, it just seems that often people will either retreat and/or yell out 'victim' and I think neither approach is effective for the person sitting there looking for some help.

I also think that a lot of us are so anxious to fix whatever we see is wrong that we overlook acknowledging where the person is.

Another thought on giving help/advice/suggestions without coming across as invalidation.

I tend to like to either give an example of what worked for me, or present it as "here's one idea for you to consider". I think that tends to be better than "here's what you should do". It respects their ability and right to choose, which is validating.

I don't mean don't ever use forceful wording. But even then, keeping in mind when writing, when choosing one's wording, that it's the other person's right to choose or not what one suggests.

Maybe it's partly a matter of not owning the other person's stuff.