BPDRecovery.com: Forums

Rather than bore everyone to tears with screen after screen after screen of individual responses, I thought I'd try it this way instead.

Ann
Apple
April
Aqua
Bordergirl
Calista
Candle
Committed2Life
Ellen
EmJay
Guidedbyvoices
IBeFuddled
Joshua
JR
Kari
Marga
Minx
NotAMonster
Oceanheart
PaintedLady
Sarah
Smilin
StoneGlow
Trinity
Wondering

Thank you for getting back to me and the obvious time it took you to do it.

I realise my expectations of you were unrealistic. I also realise now that I melted down right along with you for reasons both related and unrelated to my feelings about you. I'm sorry to have dumped my stuff on you.

Ash I sense that I'm out of line and will endeavour to do what I can with that. In advance (of whatever understanding of that I come to) I apologise for putting my crap onto you, especially at a time when you could've probably done with quite the opposite. I think that was rather selfish, even narcissistic of me. I apologise.

My head isn't every clear about all of this. I need a break from BPDR for a bit I think (which means I'll be back tomorrow I imagine). Sorry i can't offer you any great insights into myself or your actions at this time. I think this reflects the doubts I'm having right now about being here. But enough about me. That's another issue.

I'm glad to hear you're coming back to earth.

Ash,

I felt very entertained upon reading your responses.

Thanks for the smile, I'm not sure I believe that was the real you any more than I believe it's the real me sometimes. Doesn't make me like you any less, sometimes there is a part of a person that is just that, and it's hard for anyone else to understand. Sometimes "you" is something you want to keep to yourself, and making everything ok is what's important.

Ash,
Thanks for responding. I am not sure I came across as I meant to in my former posts. I feel you were a little defensive in your reply. I could be wrong, it just seems that way. I'm going to try and respond as best I can.


This seems black and white or extreme comparisons to me. You say you are recovered and other professionals don't agree with being able to be 100% recovered, yet see it in a different way, improved, recovering, stabilized, whatever. I understand it is important to you to be considered "recovered" never again to deal with the uglier sides of BPD, but I am not sure that is the complete truth.

Regarding what happened with you last weekend, many people here had the same feeling, that you were suffering something intense, not just a "bad mood." No one here can debate that with you though and I doubt this can be proved one way or the other.

What I have seen from you over the years is a pattern. It is part of your personality. You yourself said this is who you "are" a mean person who doesn't like people, etc. I'm not here to bash you or pull you down or hurt you. That is definitely not my intention and I hope you see that. Ok, so that is your personality, whether or not you want to call it part of a personality disorder---that's really debatable. I don't deny you have done a lot of work on yourself or that you have had substantial recovery. I don't see it as sick<---->/<----recovered! One or the other. I see it as a continuum, a percentage.


Ok, I will try to explain. Although I see you as the owner of this site and somebody who has worked hard on herself and a person who has something to offer, I do not have you on a pedestal. You and I have had plenty of long discussions, some easier and some not so easy. Did I ever say you don't have answers? I don't remember saying that. I do notice; however, when you are very active on the board and I do notice when I haven't received any replys or posts from you. That is why I asked. I asked because sometimes during our "discussions" you will seem to say to me that you are finished and that you don't think I am making any progress. Then I see other discussions, in general, about people who aren't making enough progress. I wonder if I am seen in that category. I know you will speak frankly, even bordering on harsh to me. I admit that although the harsh is difficult to deal with, the frankness is something that I do like and seek and once in a while I do want to ask someone I know will be frank with me how they think I am doing. I know I can get that from you and a few others here.

As far as approval, I do not like it when anybody has an issue with me and that just might be a need for approval on my part, which is something I am currently working on in RL. I think it is healthy for me not to have to have your approval and to see you as an equal rather than on a pedestal.


Good, I agree.


Do you mean recently or in the past? I think I used to because of the authority you have here. Authority = expectations. Authority can also set boundaries. Recently, I am not sure what expectations I have. I think I know you as well as I can in this setting. I know from time to time you are going to get overwhelmed and the anger is going to show. I am not putting you down for it. I am saying why see it as impossible? Of course, concern would come into play for anybody having a "meltdown" or difficult time---same with you---there was concern.


Ash, yes, yes, yes. Reread that paragraph. This is your website, you wrote a book that is on every page, you are a strong personality with strong opinions, and you let people know how it is when you want to. That points to authority here, so right away, you are a "leader" without saying anything. Is it fair to blame people for seeing you as a leader when the website says "Ash is leader" all over it? When you are calm and patient it is easier to come close to you and be understanding of your own personality flaws. When you come across as harsh and blunt it is difficult to be close to you and who is going to call you on it? And even if you get called on it, who is going to kick you off? (not that you need kicking off Ash--just saying that because you are in charge you have that power above other people, I hope you understand what I am trying to say).

You must see that you do have authority here and authority doesn't necessarily mean working out issues with mommy. It means that a bunch of people who might clash are going to naturally turn to you to say hey look at this issue on your site, this person is doing this or that, isn't that against your rules......etc. etc.


True, people are going to develop "friendships." That's natural. And people are just going to have differences of opionions that wont get solved right? Accepting that any site, especially this one with highly emotionally charged people, is going to have clashes and sparks fly is par for the course. Maybe accepting that is the case and even enjoying it---the discussions, differences, will make it easier.


Okay, but I've heard that from at least 2 leaders. Not that they can't be themselves or human or can't work out their issues, but maybe I should say there were concerns that they appear a certain way so they can be leaders.


Right, I agree. I think I didn't communicate it correctly. It wasn't a black or white statement, leaders have to be perfect. It was meant to be that I have heard that there has to be a certain amount of stability displayed---and what is wrong with that?

I'm once again clueless about where/how this "out of line" thing comes into play. I don't understand it. Maybe it's a cultural thing, maybe it's a slight difference in language, I don't know. I don't have anything in my head that says "Sarah was out of line" so I'm not able to fathom where you're coming from with that. I'd like to understand but I may never truly 'get it.'

Meanwhile, I don't think it was selfish let alone narcissistic of you to react and respond in a perfectly normal way. It was a little intense, yes but it wasn't completely out of left field and it certainly wasn't uncalled for. In fact, the very use of the harsh language and whatnot was what I was originally looking for anyway: people to really tell me how they felt, what they saw, without the social nicities that can soften the message. I was looking for, as SG put it, the sharp edges. The fact that you gave them to me for whatever reason (deliberate action, matter of course, meltdown) doesn't make that wrong. At least not in my eyes. In terms of taking it personally, that is.

You're still most likely correct - that you dumped stuff onto me and, again, that's perfectly understandable. I totally see how such a thing would happen. I don't know that I'm the best choice to assist you in working through the stuff that got raised, thrown in the blender and mixed up quite well and thoroughly. I'm not saying "Won't do it, no way" -- I'm saying I'm here if you want or need anything from me but for the most part, I'll step back and let you deal with it however you feel best. (It's kind of like I'm Typhoid Mary and I got you sick in the first place so would you really want me handing you a cool washcloth & fluffing the pillows?)

I appreciate that you responded, Ash - thanks...!

^ditto jr

Stability is based on an overall, not specifics. Overall stability in the grand scheme of things makes someone eligible (in part) for the job. The "need to be stable while in the job" is a self-imposed thing, not an Ash-imposed thing. It's self-imposed because of the realities of what this place is. "You're supposed to be better than us, if you're having a bad day you're just as much a loser as I am so why the hell should I listen to you, what makes you so special?" No one's ever actually said those words (I don't think) but that's the general experience.

Seeing / knowing the title changes the perspective of much of the community, sets different expectations (no matter how unfair) and it's just damn easier for us to stay out of the spotlight. Right now we're hashing through the why's and wherefore's of Ash's brain. Not because I need it or want to but because all ya'll need to do it. It's not about me anymore - hasn't been for several days. I'm still the focus because it's easier for ya'll to pick at me than look at yourselves.


C2L, it seems very important to you that I acquiesce and give in to your perceptions of me. This has been a common theme over the years for you. I understand how important it is to you that I say "You're right C2L, I am still mentally ill" but I don't understand why it's so important for you. I don't know if maybe you're trying to say "Ash isn't recovered either so it's okay that I'm not recovered by now" as a way to justify your own plateau, stall, continued floundering.

I realize that there is great division in the professional mental health community about the ability to recover or be truly recovered from borderline personality disorder. I was "raised" in the camp that says borderline traits (as listed on the DSM-IV criteria) are present in all human beings to lesser extents. As such, the differentiation between borderline and non-borderline is the collection (at least five of nine) of severe or intense displays of those traits. Likewise, to be "recovered" from borderline, I was "raised" that those traits will always exist for me - as they do for the entire rest of humanity over the span of time - just to lesser degrees.

Having one rough week does not [in my eyes nor in the eyes of the professionals I've seen (this time or in times past)] void the no-longer-meets-the-criteria-for-borderline statute. I don't resist being called borderline because I have a thing against the label. I don't resist being challenged on my level of recovery because I think it undermines my standing in the community. I don't resist being "one of the BPDs at BPDR."

What I resist is being "diagnosed" by someone in the community who is not a licensed mental health professional, has never even met me in person and knows very little about me. What I resist is that, while you may have been "raised" in the other camp, you're trying to be the spokesperson from your camp to tell me how mentally ill I am with barely a scintilla of fact behind it.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion / misunderstanding / different interpretation of mental illness, borderline personality disorder, basic humanity, recovery, etc. Since I am finding very little evidence that either of us are changing our foundations on these matters, I am going to stop engaging with you on this topic. You are, as always, entitled to your opinion and you may believe I'm mentally ill if it helps you in some way. I will just no longer try to get you to see things from my perspective and I would ask that you not try to get me to see things from your perspective. If I see it again, I will cease all contact with you entirely. If it's such a sticking point for you, there's no reason for me to try speaking with you because that sticking point will color, cloud and filter anything and everything I have to say, IMO.

Ash -

I will start with

You've made a whole heck of a lot of assumptions. - especially about my participation in coalitions and/or any other such thing. backhandedness? or what else, I dont know. And, I think it's really interesting that you've done this.

Second.. why bring my prior term on BPDR here. That was over 4 years ago. It sounds to me like more of your veiled comments. It sounds as tho you are making a judgement about me and recovery. And as though you are hoping to sway the community's opinion about me. The opinions have already been made.

You have never discussed any of what you have written with me. You always refer to imply this or that. Why, if Im such a problem to you and this community not sit down and talk to me - me alone - about what I am here for, what I want, and the fact that when I left last time, I had none of your tools That wasn't what I was here for back then- and that was ok by you.

You also seem to forget that you brought me here through interactions with me on another board.

There is much more to be addressed but atm, these two, I find the most glaring odd pieces of the whole shooting match you have posed.

Ash, I see you have responded to my first post in your "I'm a bad person" thread. Few of us here on the board were expecting a thread like that. Frankly, the initial post in that thread felt somehow dangerous to me, like you had gone over the edge. I have no experience of you insisting you're a bad person and requesting that people attack you. I responded with concern and anxiety. I felt alarmed.

It was that part of your second post that convinced me there might be something seriously wrong, such as a medical issue. That's why I said it seemed like more than a day with normal ups and downs. I did not say that it seemed like you were having a bad day. I said it seemed like what you were going through was beyond a mere "bad day." It seemed like a "break from reality" to me. I wrote:

Then, as you noted, you wrote the "What's going on" thread, and I wrote about self-care boundaries and taking a break from PMs.

You ask:

After I wrote the self-care post I began to find it more difficult to follow all the threads. I'm not clear on your question here, whether other people are calling you narcissistic or whether you are. I must have missed the part in your threads where this term came up. It's nobody's business to diagnose you. Whether you are a narcissist or not does not negate the accomplishment that this board and your book represent. Whether you are a narcissist or not does not negate your need for self-care. I'm still seeing what appears to me to be a lot of outward focus going on on your part. It's okay to look inward and decide how much time and energy it's safe for you to devote to this board so that you don't get pushed over the cliff again. Perhaps the other CLs might be able to assist you in determining that.

I think that you have established, though a lot of hard work, a position of authority in the BPD world. I think that people in positions of authority who succeed over time are the ones who recognize the need to prioritize self care. I don't think anybody here wants to see you hurting like you were hurting last weekend.

I have no idea if this post will be a help or not, but it's what came to mind.

PS. I do not mean my last post to seem to endorse the narcissism idea. I simply have no idea who here may or may not be a narcissist and consider that none of my business.

Ann, plenty of other people here have stapled the NPD label to my forehead. Trying to balance their perception of my actions with your perception of my actions and my own interpretation of my actions is part of that inward focus. Since I'm comfortable with the belief that I am looking inside, I'll leave it at that. No need to argue, disagree, come to terms on what "looking inside should look like" or any of that. I do appreciate your concern overall. Thank you again.

Smilin, I'm realizing that I am unable to communicate with you effectively. Whether or not I brought you here, kept you here or force anything on you is irrelevant at this point, IMO. I don't wish to dig back through all that history when I'm not even able to communicate effectively with you on basic, simple matters that relate to the very tools this entire community has been working with you over the past few years. I don't feel I have the strength or stamina to fight through all the stuff that comes along with trying to sit you down and talk to you. I'm not seeing a worthwhile "return on investment." I would rather put those hours and that considerable energy into discussing these concepts, ideas and tools with other people whom I feel would be more receptive, less combative, more willing to explore, etc.

I am going to take a three month break from trying to engage in discussion with you. I have set the date on my calendar. I will be on vacation when that date arrives so the break will be slightly over three months. During that time period, I will continue observing but I will say nothing to you - on the board, in email should you choose to send email or in PM. I'm hopeful that if I can sit quietly for a period of time, I may be able to finally learn (through observation of your interactions with others) a way in which I may be able to effectively communicate with you.

I have a complete post already written out.

I wont post it now since I really feel you have selected me out to 'dump on' and you did so after I specifically asked you to grant me the same consideration I had you- by taking this to PM.

I will post this

- you seem to be singling me out.. why not just come to me? Something you have yet to do. And why are you singling me out?

- you have assumed a lot and while the community can guess, it surely feels that you are out attacking me (again) to try to persuade people about me... Thing is Ash, I already feel people have made their opinions about me, and if this changes them, that says less of them than it does of me

- it would be nice if you would actually talk of these assumptions instead of leaving more things veiled (like you did up until now regarding your dislike and frustration with me)

- you say you don't trust me. That is your right. I just don't know what that is based on. From what I see- assumptions.

- you blame me for your time you've spent by saying 'I got you'. As was just pointed out to me, no one can get anyone to do anything.

- you mislead the public as to how much time you've spent with me. I've nothing to compare it to, but 3 pms on a topic about 3 weeks ago, and some PM's after a pretty nasty CC. I don't see that as excessive. I also think the implication misleads the public into thinking I've harassed you- when in fact, I have not. When you wanted to drop a PM, I did. And, recently, my first PM to you was- can we talk. All quite respectful things, Ash, and none out of the ordinary.

- this post, as well as some of your others (cc for instance) do assume a lot of things about me/about my mind-set- both on what I am here for; on what I am trying to work on atm; you've also assumed my motive for interacting with others. All of this has and is interfering in your ability to hear me/see me.

I will say, I felt in my current post on splitting, that you heard me. And, also somewhat in that last PM which you dropped with no reason and explaination-.

You also seemed to hear me, (or chose to), finally, at the end of our PM's related to our CC, but, it felt half-hearted, you changed gears at the end of that PM. You expressed frustration -perhaps even anger- at the start, was I suppose to feel that you were really offering to assist me at that point?

I'm really lost on all this Ash- one minute you are interacting with me and (seemingly) encouraging me. The next minute there are all sorts of veiled coments directed towards me. None of it brought up directly thru the PM exchanges. And now a post singling me out as the bad guy and one that you cannot trust.

Seems like I am just your easy target.

Thanks Ash for your reply. Yes, I do mean stepping away publicly and privately. I am reading about learning to pause and am hoping I can implement that tool when I need to. To stop and think before I respond. I think I am starting to make a little headway here. I have more to learn though.

I think I understand what you meant when discussing how I feel about getting thrown off the board. You are correct - it is very rarely done and I see it is my own paranoia. I never consciously thought that I wanted reassurance, but maybe I did. That doesn't really equate with taking responsibility for myself, does it? Something else I see I need to work on. It's all my own insecurities coming out. Thank you for pointing it out to me.

Again, thank you for taking the time to reply.

And you keep saying that I hit-and-run post. If nothing else, Ash, you should be coming to understand that there are times it is necessary.

I just feel it is very low of you to make all sorts of accusations and then say you wont discuss them.

Whom should not be trusting whom at this point? And whom should be frustrated, discouraged and feeling its hopeless.

I very much agree that communication has been a real pain lately, but perhaps we need to stay on one topic vs saying one thing, then going off on another. A prime example was you coming to me in a CC with this:



And then you spent the majority if not all of that time telling me what I did wrong- how I should have finished the conversation (even tho no one was listening); how I shoudl not have ever engaged the person; how you assume I had ulterior motives.

My interpretation of 'root of multiple posts' did not, nor ever has, consisted of being told all the ways I should not have engaged. Those are 2 separate, but related issues.

So with this the basic premise for our inability to communicate, I agree it is very hard for anything to get accomplished or resolved or for any common understanding to be achieved- other than we dont' communicate well.

You are assuming here. It isn't important to me.

Ash, look, you had your meltdown, then asked for people to tell it to you straight. That's what I did. Now, you are arguing about it. Pretty frustrating.

You are what you are and I'm not telling you what that is.


Ash, I never diagnosed anybody and I would like you to please not put that on me. You said you were a BPD. I didn't. I just said I think you have traits that linger on. THAT IT.


Again, I resent your assumptions. I didn't tell you how mentally ill you are, but I am beginning to wonder because who would have a melt down tell everybody to please confirm what a rotton person you are, then when people try to nicely give THEIR OWN opinions, you argue it all, as if it is sport for you.


That's just bullshit and your effort to try to make me look bad AGAIN. I'm not TRYING TO MAKE YOU ANYTHING. Please stop. I also doubt we have that many differences.


Okay, there you go weilding your power, putting yourself above me, and telling me like it is, when what I did was try to HELP you in a difficult time. You didn't WANT people to say Oh Ash you are this awesome person who is in charge and did this and did that. You SAID you wanted something ELSE. THAT is what I tried to do, NOW you discard it. What type of game IS this?

I changed my mind, you DO know yourself better than anybody here ever could and maybe you were right when you described yourself. I can tell you that I am not going to respond to your outbursts again beacause it doesn't help and serves no other purpose than for you to rant and then tell everybody what is wrong with THEM. I also don't appreciate you assuming what you assume about MY recovery. You really don't know how I am, what I am dealing with, and how well I function. You are assuming. I see now as a trap and I'm sorry I fell for it. It is a pattern, no matter if this is just you and your "healthy" personality or you and your left-over boarderline traits, but whatever it is you are doing, it does not seem healthy and you can do what you want about it or not. At least you gave everybody fair warning about who you obviously really area, since you are the expert on Ash. Good luck.

Sure, I noticed my name wasn't listed. I wondered the reason. Instead of making any assumptions, Ash, I will ask you the reason. I do have an idea (CC) but want to be sure.

GH, yeah, I'm sorry - I thought we hashed through our stuff in CC. Did I overlook something that you wanted to address?

Hi ((Ash)) and thank you for all of the time and energy that this must have taken to respond to everyone individually and provide the links, etc.. I'm exausted just thinking about how much effort that must have taken. :halo

I am not understanding this. Anything I said at the time I said it, I mean't at some level, but at other levels came from my own distress and worry, etc.. When I came to a further understanding, I said that, too.

I'm not holding back anything that I didn't say. I blew in some of my p.m.'s, but then wrote it to you, and then when I knew better, I clarified in p.m. and, again, wrote that to you. There's nothing hidden here, and you either believe that to be true about me or you don't.

My primary experience was worry and then, after the fear prompting the worry had passed, I experienced anger at having been worried and having been afraid. It's no surprise that that would be my response, given the background I had, (including reacting calmly but in caretaker mode when percieved crisis was actually occurring, and then having my own reactions after the perceived crisis had passed).

I got down to cases earlier than I would have in my past life, bc of the things here and also bc of my crack-up. I don't have residual bad feelings or anything like that as I write this, so I certainly have no motivation to try to resurrect some or whatever. If you have some with me, I'm open to having that discusssion, and I have little doubt that we can resolve whatever remnants remain in a favorable way. That's a trust thing that I have in our fundamental relationship which, for me, has not been damaged or changed.

As ever,

J.

That is what I thought but didn't want to assume. I'm good. I've said what I needed to say.

I'm not comfortable discussing some of it "in public" as most of what makes me uncomfortable stems from things that were done and said in private. I'm up for talking in private if you are, but you've indicated in another thread that you're not. I leave that ball in your court; It's truly my stuff and I'm still actively working on being okay with it. It's not as big a deal as I think I made it out to be. I suck at that sometimes. Sorry.

The rest of it is just that I don't feel I have anything worthwhile to contribute and like I don't fit in. This is really a perfect example of what I was talking about with second-guessing yourself, though. :shysmile Pot, meet kettle!

OK, Ash~

I am home now, no longer on my iphone so I can type fast...(had a great boat ride and lunch with my H. Saw dolphins!!)

Thank you for your response.

It took a lot of my time and resource last weekend and week to deal with this whole scenario on BPDR. Yes, it was my choice to participate. And like many on here, I was concerned about you. I had a myriad of feelings during that whole situation.

I, like you, have had two professionals in the mental health field tell me that I am "recovered". So much that I have been advised to go off my med.

And yet, I "feel" judged by you and others on the SCL and CL Team. Somehow that I am NOT recovered. Kind of like a coalition betwist and between y'all of who on here is "recovered" and who isn't "recovered". Not a one of you is a psychiatrist - right? So, how do y'all make this sort of determination? Because the same fingers you point at gossiping, talking about others behind their backs need to be pointed right back at y'all as the SCL/CL Team, yes?

In my RL, things are good, happy, healthy and balanced. 96% of people I meet and interact with do not have a PD.

Here, on the BPDR Board, I'd say that 96% of the people that I interact with DO have a PD.

I've got a lot of stuff going down on me in real life:

My stuff with my Dad, which would take pages and pages to even discuss.

My stuff with my family of origin, which again would fill volumes.

My responsibilities as a mother, a wife, a business owner, an employer, a citizen and yes, even a landlord.

Tax time is, yes, always a critical mass time for me as someone who is self employed. It takes me a helluva lot of work and time this time of year.

I've got a beautiful new yard to landscape. (I planted daffodils earlier today.)

So, see, I am questioning what the hell I am doing on here lately with all the drama? Sure, I have come to care for a lot of people on here.

Ash, I know from what I lived with, researched, read about that people with narcissistic tendancies NEED to have a constant SUPPLY. You think that most people are morons and idiots and cannot be helped. (Not assuming - see your own words.)

Then, for what reasons DID you start this website?!? If the rest of the world, except for a handful that YOU have judged to be respectable, are morons and idiots, why bother?

Moreover, who died and left YOU in charge of judging who is and isn't respectable? Or recovered? Do you have a Ph.D in psychology? An MD in psychiatry?

Your "meltdown" left a lot of us on here quite concerned, Ash. I'd bet that if you went and saw your T, he'd be concerned as well. Please, do not minimize what happened here or what people might be feeling.

i dont know what most of you are talking about and dont mean to address a thing with this but something Ash said above.

many have labeled you as narcissitic?or a narcissist? they should talk to me before labeling..lol. i grew up with it so much, i can spot one a mile away by now. and Ash, you are not a N. you actually dont show many traits of it on here at all and it has not crossed my mind to call you one.

yes, me and you clash. i still learn things from that and accept we just must have been arguing in a previous life or something. it doesnt bother me, altho it used to. i do hope it doesnt bother you either, because things like that just happen.

but you, a N? naw, no way. not even close. IMHO** only.

P.S. On top of the other stuff going on in my RL, I am going off my med. You didn't ever make it clear if you were off yours or no - just that you were off your Rx nasal spray. So, I'd say that if "going off meds" was a justification for "meltdowns" then I'd be right up there ESPECIALLY with everything else going on for me.

But I'm not having meltdown. The reason I am going off my med isn't because of lack of insurance, either.

Perhaps there is more going on with you than you care to admit. Because then some of us might see that "The Emporer has no clothes!" (That is the narcissists worst nightmare.)

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, it is probably a duck!