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i was thinking today about some things said ,,both to me and about me.. i see a need to work on good communication. i see many could use this. in tons of ways. everywhere.

the misunderstandings resulting from 2 people having totally differing ideas on what a word means must cause half the issues in the world.

i put my own definition on what i say and it doesnt cross my mind jane or john doe has a different one. but they do! and therein lies the problem. "you said, but you said, no you said, well i meant,,,no you didnt, yes i did," and on it goes.

i am vowing to be clearer in what i mean from now on. i am gonna try my hardest. and its perfectly ok to ask...hey, jane or john, what do you mean by that? before we jump, or assume, i want to begin to try and ask...what did you mean by this or that?

it may seem obvious to us what something means, until we find out its not at all. im a certain age, from a certain state. what xyz means here will most certainly not be what it means somewhere else. what tone i put on a phrase will come from my own filters. and i must stop that and listen with a open mind to others.

this is hard for me, because asking when i was child meant i was questioning something. and God forbid i did that. so i never really got this concept till now. its ok to question! its ok to explain. indeed, it is almost mandatory.

any added ideas, yall?

I try to write as plainly as possible so I hope people will get my intent. If they don't, I welcome being asked. And I try to understand what people here write. Sometimes I can't understand and I ask for clarification. Sometimes it must seem I ask a lot, but my poor brain just has a hard time processing things sometimes. So I ask quite a lot. But I'd rather ask then get into a tiff with someone. I agree we all need to communicate as best we can and try to be clear on what we want and need.

i have got to learn its ok to ask...and get over this need for armor i have. thinking someone is out to get me for speaking. for so long i had to be ready to fight to survive, and i must undo that. it is really hard to lose a survival instinct and change it up. harder than i realized. more ingrained than i knew.

thanks for sharing, BG.

Jody... it's also a very BPD reaction. We don't have to have BPD to react that way. The good news is that the label gives us a really great clue about where and how to work on it.

I just got done doing that very thing here with some people I admire and care about deeply. Shot my dang big toe right off. And knew I was doing it when I squeezed the trigger. And I am fully recovered, don'tcha know.

Now if you believe that last sentence, I've got some big chunks of land I picked up after Katrina.... and it's available for a song!!!! But not Glen Campbell singing Abilene. No not that song. But a Wooly Bully solo might get a person an acre or two.

Surely I agree it's an important piece of work and the need for it never ever ends, no matter what emotional condition we're in. I have to learn the very same things you say you have to learn.

wooly boooly,,,,,wooly booly....watch it now,,,watch it! uno, dos, one two tres quatro! whose that i see walking in these woods? why its little red riding hood! (ok, that was a bit out of order in the lyrics and songs lol)

sam the sham and the pharoahs! texas guy, ya know that?

i would like a waterfront piece, please, swamp is ok.

i just HAVE to get this wall down i have and be less defensive. quit being so scared. i had no idea it was so deeply ingrained in me that it can take over and i dont even see it. kudos to emjay for showing me.

we all just need to chill, i think, not be carrying that loaded gun and so ready to shoot, maybe? might need a toe.

its just a long road, i fully expect mine to be till i die, because i keep finding things to learn and things i do wrong or unhealthy.

ty for sharing:)

Jody, this is what we call life. Not one of us is perfect, no matter how hard we may try. Some people come close and are definitely perfectionists, but no one is indeed perfect. I'm sure Mother Theresa did something wrong. [She probably put the toilet paper roll on incorrectly.]

We're all going to have character flaws and areas of development. It's having the ability to look within to work on those areas that counts. This community provides us with lots of ways to see ourselves. Sometimes we really like what people share with us and other times we can dismiss someone's perspective because contrary to their own belief, they're way off the mark.

Actually, since she believed that suffering was good for the soul, her clinics offered little or no pain medications to those dying. From where I sit, I think that is pretty cruel. But this isn't about Mother Theresa, so...

Jody, in my childhood, I learned to not ask questions. If I did, my Dad and sometimes my Mom would berate me with statements like, "What are you, some kind of idiot? Do I need to draw you a picture?!"

That's where I learned how to do the twisty mind reading and assuming. And not to ask for clarification.

When my H and I were first married, he said to me, "here let me draw you a picture."

Man, I freaked out! I went all BPD on him! He was shocked to say the least. He loves to draw and is very good at it. So to him, it was something usual. To me, it was a 'trigger'.

Now, we can laugh about it. Once I understood what triggered me, how I learned what I did, where this came from, it made a lot of sense. Now, as an adult, I don't have my D or M saying that to me. Now it is okay to ask questions and for clarification.

yes, mother teresa wasnt quite a saint. far more than tp, i learned.

GH, i was always told, "if you dont know what you did, im not telling you". a fav of N's, i learned. thus, i had to try to figure it out and fix something i had no clue what even looked like. i had to be perfect, (def being quiet, in a corner, saying nothing but agreeing to everything) and i cant tell you how hard it is for me to unlearn this.

my mom would pull her abandoning, so would my dad, or her im gonna kill myself...crap. so it became life or death to me very early.

and this shit is so ingrained in me...i just learned a different way. it has to stick inside me and then began to undo the other stuff.

ask questions? are you kidding me? questions meant umm questioning, and that couldnt happen. never question. and sheeeit, is it hard to learn to not do this by myself, to actually ask.

i do want to clarify something. it isnt that we have a parent saying this. it is that WE learned a coping or behavioral mechanism from this. and it became ingrained as a childhood lesson. which is the point of childhood, when lessons are positive things. ours werent yet they became part of us. that is why its so hard to undo, its part of us now. parents or caregivers might be where it came from, but it became US very early on.

i try, Nik. its just some things i dont know are wrong until im shown. scary idea,,,,the reason i dont know its wrong is its all i know, or was taught and have seen. until now,,,until this board and my counseling:) then begins the work of changing it.

A couple of things people have taught me about written communication: 1) Have a point. 2) Get to it quickly.

I don't know if it's necessary to "quit being so scared" before changing one's behavior. In my opinion, courage means taking action in spite of the fear one feels. As for allowing the "ingrained shit" to prevail, perhaps it's possible to make a decision about whether we're going to allow our past to ruin our present and our future. Maybe we need to make this decision on a daily basis or even an hourly basis, whatever works for you. What works for me is telling myself, "That was then, this is now."

Take care,

EmJay

hey EmJay,

let me clarify something,ok. for one, im a big believer in inner child work. it has helped me immensely. so i do tend to go "back" to basic causes.

i do NOT use this as a excuse in any way. when i know where something comes from, i can change it. thats how i work on this. for me.

the fear i feel speaking up, is a deep, ingrained sense of dying. it is not "oh hey, im scared". it is part of my cptsd and a core thing i have to work on.

without knowing where it came from, i couldnt get past it. i had a wall i simply couldnt pass. it was very hard for me and still is at times.

""""perhaps it's possible to make a decision about whether we're going to allow our past to ruin our present and our future. Maybe we need to make this decision on a daily basis or even an hourly basis, whatever works for you. What works for me is telling myself, "That was then, this is now." """

the thing about this is,,,i tried this. it had become who i am,..not a "thing or event" that happened. i do not "allow" my past to ruin anything. some of the time i do not know my behavior is caused from a past event. when i see it , i begin to stop it and change it.

i began my counseling with inner child. my T was a huge believer. i saw it worked and made sense. without changing myself, nothing will change.

maybe this makes more sense for you , so you know im not dwelling, or excusing, anything. i am facing and acknowledging , tho.

not saying you do this, but i note a lot of people dont like when i do this inner child or past stuff. i think its because they dont want to face theirs, i may be wrong but a lot in society happens because people wont face their past issues.

that have been then, but its WHY i am who i am now.

Do you think maybe you could be assuming this? I didn't like inner-child work, because I saw the negative effects of it in some people. It seemed like they used it as an excuse to have bad behaviors. I didn't believe I had the control at the time to stop myself from experiencing any negative effects of it, so I denounced it totally. I think one can't assume why all people do what they do, people are individuals and each situation is different. There are greys, it's not that black-and-white.

thank you again so much for voicing your opinion on my thread!

actually, no, it is a view put forth by alice miller, a guru i happen to look up to. her view of why abuse is so prevalent is because people deny their own past, thus denying others issues and fixing the problem.

regardless. i do not think i am assuming it. if you dont do inner child work, fine. i didnt ask you or anyone to. nor was i trying to convince anyone of its merits. i was explaining something to emjay.

if you disagree, thats cool.

What point are you trying to make here? Is this said in distaste or is it sincere?

This seems to be working against what we are trying to learn, which is to not assume, and to see each person as the individuals they are. Isn't this stereotyping a bit, which is ok I think once one gets past the point of seeing the greys.

Well, I don't think I'm giving an opinion as much as I am trying to work the tools. I'm interested in seeing things in the perspective of the tools I have agreed to work with in order to recover. Sometimes I have to give up my opinions in order to allow them to take precedence.

aqua, i dont mind and welcome differing views to my own.

however, i dont feel comfortable conversing with you, so i will let you post without responding.

thanks again...jody

Jody,

I would prefer a discussion rather than a back-out when things get messy and one needs to explain their points-of-view in regards to the tools we work here. I see that as being a "resist" and "hide", which is a part of the victim loop, as opposed to the "learn" and "take action", which is part of the accountability loop. I think we should all be accountable and be able to explain what we mean by our words, which actually applies to your thread here, which I actually thought was very insightful.

i am not running or hiding. im right here. for my own sake, i prefer to not converse with you. if you think i will run or hide any more, think again, please.

i am not a victim nor in a victim loop. i am setting something for myself and my own health.

i explained myself already on this to emjay and if she needs further clarification, i hope she asks. i dont see you asking for any, maybe i am not understanding your type. .

i am not resisting a thing. past experience with trying to discuss things with you has shown me it is not effective nor healthy for me.

please feel free to discuss this in this thread with anyone you want, or just post your own views.

I personally do not do inner child work. My T isn't big on it anyway. I don't deny my past - I will look at the past but try to get past it into the here-and-now. My T tries to get me to see what's going on now and how I can work on it. So he has a different method. I have no problem with others doing inner-child work. It just isn't my way. But that's cool. As long as we get the help we need, whatever works is okay. It's not that I don't want to face my past - I just do it differently. We all have different methods - we all tie our shoelaces in different ways too!!

It's good to know what happened in the past so we can deal with the present. I too do not believe I am a victim. Heck, I could have played that game lots. But I refuse to. What good does it do us? To have people say "poor you" - how much can you put up with that? So, instead we look at the past, see what it's done to us and learn from it. Try to move on. I think my main issue from the past is that I sometimes get angry. But my T allows me to vent and get it out of my system. Then I move on. For me, it's taking two steps forward, one step backward, one step forward, etc. It's not a straight line. I often scratch my head, looking at some of the stuff I've done. It's almost like it was someone else. One of these days I'm going to develop a sense of humor about it all. If I could get to that place it would be a miracle! To not only have perspective, but a real sense of humor about it and see that none of it was the end of the world. I can tell some stories now that I can laugh at, which at the time were terrible for me. Distance and humor can be a great healer.

Wow, it looks like I need to work on my communication skills, because I sense a bit of defensiveness about things I didn't actually say and didn't even mean to imply. Let me go through those one by one, and then I'll try to be a bit clearer about what I was trying to get across.



I didn't think I had said or implied that you were.



I wasn't dismissing the fear you feel as something insignificant and easily overcome.



I already knew that.



I'm glad to hear that, because I still have a tendency fall back on old habits that no longer serve me well, and traumatic events from my past still come back to haunt my present, as evidenced by something I posted in this thread.



I understand what you're saying, and I think we're basically on the same page, but we're using slightly different words. I believe that once we acknowledge how our past affects the way we feel, think, and behave in the present, we can try out new feelings, thoughts, and behaviors. Eventually, as our present becomes more interesting and relevant, we can let go of defining ourselves in terms of our traumatic past. So every time you speak up, even if you're still afraid, you make the decision not to allow your past to ruin your present.

By the way, I got "that was then, this is now" from someone on another message board who was trying to explain the concept of "inner child" to me. I just didn't get it, and she said that it basically boils down to "that was then, this is now."

Take care,

EmJay

hey, EmJay,

first off, no, your communication was fine. i was not "hearing" something and being defensive. more like i was trying to explain, and make sure my point got across. nothing about your words at all.

when i reply, i am not saying you or the other person actually said this or that. im just sorta,,,explaining ME, if that makes any sense. more like how i am doing my work...not as to a response to what you said.

like, when i say, "i do not use this as a excuse in any way" im not saying you said i was. im more saying it about me. i hear lots of misunderstandings about inner child work, and the way i was taught it is very different. the way i was taught, it can be and is used as a explanation of "you do x, this is why you learned to do x as a response". not using it as "hey, my parents did y, so i do x and i am not responsible".

make sense?

everytime i hear "that was then, this is now" i think of the Monkees song..lol. sorry!

the thing is, under my beliefs and what i learned, is a response NOW, if deep or intense, or very emotional, is from the inner child in us and her way of still tying to protect us. it is much more intense than a adult response and will override --in us, in me--a rational response. so i have to work hard on adult responses, that must be a concious choice now and not a easy response yet.

as humans, each stage we go thru must be "finished" and assimilated in a adult eventually. needs must be met or we tend to form unhealthy ways to get those needs met and unhealthy behaviors to "fix" what we need and didnt get. until those needs are met, we will keep searching. not conciously, but searching nontheless.

or so i was taught, and it makes sense to me. it has served me well in my struggle to heal. but it is a long road, as these are deeply ingrained behaviors in me.

Can you see how this practice of "explaining" can lead to confusion and misunderstanding? I mean, all I have to offer are my words, and if you're not responding to what I said . . . well, can you understand why I might be confused? I only bring this up in the interest of exploring more ideas about effective communication. I'm honestly curious why you feel the need to explain yourself, Jody.

Take care,

EmJay

hmmmmmm. i think i explain myself to myself, actually. put my thoughts or beliefs into words...partially.

second, i had to do this so much in my life, maybe it still continues and i dont realize it. justify myself in some way? expecting to be invalidated?

im not sure...how do you see it?

i didnt think it would be confusing, the contrary, i thought it would help stop confusion. oops. i have always had to justify myself, and it carries over, i can see that now.

im probably defending myself,,,its probably a unconcious thing by now i do.

i can see how it could be confusing for you and im really sorry i caused that.

im for anything to help communication!

I get the residual effects of asking questions as a child. Been there, too.
Now that I've learned the, um, 'downside' of the erratic-but-not-atypical responses I got used to expecting as a more vulnerable person, I'd like to be mindful of that as I respond to my own kids and in conversations with peers.


Listening with an open mind takes some learning, and practice - at least it does for me. Listening - really l-i-s-t-e-n-i-n-g - is an enlightening, valuable tool. It's not something it seems anyone does very well naturally. It takes practice; it takes patience; it takes humility; it takes a certain amount of self-esteem and willingness to give up a measure of control.

And in order to listen, I think we need to try to understand adequately, which entails asking for clarification. It's a matter of respect for the effort another person is taking the time trying to express. It's acknowledging we cannot mind-read, and that the other person's input is important.


I think listening... without presumption or prejudice or waiting for our next turn or looking for an argument or expecting reprisal... listening with a truly open mind just might be the most basic artform within universal reach. :shh
So exquisite in its simplicity yet so truly difficult to actually do.


~ jr

hey jr, thanks for sharing! so true...listening is such a important thing and i just dont do it well at all.

you made some great points there.

i dont know i ever learned i could listen. that takes several steps to learn it right. and i can work on those..we all can...

great insight, and more to add to the list! you really said it. i think the listening is the most important, or at least say 50% of communication. probably in counseling, i was taught to listen way before speaking. and it is so hard. so easy to forget.

did you learn mirroring? i have got to get back to doing that.