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Hi. I'm new here. I'm a 24 year old woman. I was diagnosed with BPD 4 years ago, and have completed DBT. My former therapist determined that I even no longer meet the diagnostic criteria for the disorder, but my behavior is becoming more and more out of control. I have been drinking/using drugs a lot lately, and have been comulsively sleeping with strange men for money. My behavior scares the hell out of me, and the fact that I know I should seek help but won't because I'm ashamed, is most unnerving. I never talked to my therapist about this behavior, but it makes me sick, and I really want to stop before it's too late. Advice?

I'm serious by the way. I'm not trying to be a pervert. I just don't know where else to go with this.

Hi Warped -

Sounds like a lot of stuff going on for you. I really encourage you to discuss this with your T since he/she knows you the best and knows your history. I understand being embarrassed, but, they've heard it all before, ya know?

You sorta fast forwarded between finishing DBT, getting the label removed and now doing these various forms of self-harm. How are you addressing the inbetween stuff- the stuff that has occurred between the health and today? Don't you think that is the core stuff that really needs to be addressed? A loss or a change of some sort? An expectation that has not been fulfilled?

What are you wanting for yourself? And how do you think you could best achieve it?

Sorry to unload a lot of questions on you, it just seems that without talking of what has changed, in the past not much of what's going on today can change.

I really hope you will consider all the risks you are putting yourself under- I'm speaking of the short and long term stuff- everything you refer to indicates you are not liking yourself. And then there are all the health issues- liver problems, heart problems, HIV and STD exposure.

Sorry if this isn't helpful.

You really need to go back to your therapist, Warped. Something isn't right right now, whether you've been officially cleared of BPD or not. Drugs/heavy drinking and promiscuity aren't healthy behaviors, as you probably know.

Please make another appointment with her and talk to her about this. All of those things can be deadly. I hear you about being ashamed. It was quite some time before I could talk about some of my more shame-inducing behaviors. But your T is a trained professional who is there to help you. She's not there to judge.

Perhaps you can schedule an appointment and talk about your shameful feelings first, try to get an environment of trust, before you talk about the behaviors themselves?

hi, warped ~
I'm thinking you probably know that the drinking and getting high are a self-destructive form of numbing yourself... The sleeping with strange men for money - a 'safe' [no emotional attachment] form of feeling [temporary] worthiness or a backwards sense of empowerment.

It sounds like you're not feeling good about yourself at all, and you're doing things that seem like may they help with that, but they actually just solidify and reaffirm that nasty, horrible ickiness.


Well, it's good your behavior scares the hell out of you. It's dangerous.
The fact that you know you should seek help - also way good.
Ashamed? Understandable, but... honey, you know those harmful things you're doing may as well be a seizure because they're symptomatic... of that BPD.

I'm thinking it's a positive that your therapist had determined you no longer meet the criteria for this disorder. That says to me that recovery is possible for you. That says to me that this recent behavior is a slight stumble with potentially irreparable consequences if not addressed appropriately. That says to me that you need a helping hand in refreshing those DBT techniques. Shame or guilt are both useless places to stay and will keep us from living as we deserve to.

Reiterating what smilin and Joshua have pointed out -> your therapist will not judge you - you're not the first to exhibit/experience these behaviors/symptoms and you won't be the last - but s/he will help you put the brakes on and turn around this runaway buggy.

Get thee to thy therapist - pronto.

~ jr

I'm sorry for asking you this, but I'm trying to understand your story more. Maybe I don't know the abbreviation. What is DBT?

Dialectial behavioral therapy. It's a kind of therapy that was designed specifically to treat people with BPD.

I have been out of treatment for quite some time now...I think it's close to a year since I finished therapy. To be honest, the only thing about therapy that remotely seemed to help me were the meanings I attached to the skills for myself, and the behaviors that I monitored in addition to the usual (suicide, self-harm). I actually went to the clinic recently and asked for an old diary card so I could reference my old behaviors. The receptionist gave me a few blank ones too, and I added this recent behavior to the "cards." It's not helping like it used to though-looking at the behaviors and urges and the other emotions all together almost makes my behavior seem adaptable. I know I'm skill twisting like a fiend, but the drinking/pot-smoking only really happens right before or after I engage in sexual behavior (I do acknowledge that I'm numbing myself). I almost set up an appointment with my former T, but I'm so fucking scared of what she's going to think. I don't want to go back to treatment after having been "cured." I just want a normal life back before this behavior becomes more acceptable in my mind than it's already become.

Slippery slope, w. Life in general ain't 'normal' - Isn't 'normal' what we make it?

I hope you'll take whatever is said here [by me, at least] in the spirit it's given.
~ jr

You sound tired like you have nothing more to give (even to yourself) yet you realize this numbing isnt doing you any good. If you won't help yourself how can anyone else?

I could make some guesses about what brought you to this point, but I think you can acknowledge those yourself. Can you, however, acknowledge that those events don't have to bookmark you- your life; who you are? Can you think back to the 'normal' times and draw up on some of those resources and feelings?

Can you come up with 5 ways to help yourself get back to normal (even if they included assitance from others).. which 2 can you start doing today?

The spiral down is only going to escalate and make the climb back up that much more difficult. How about making a shift today. Do one thing that is towards your health; supporting yourself; liking yourself. And start now.

It's never easy but it's almost always easier with someone at your side... why not your T? Is there someone else who can give you support while you start?

I missed this thread initially since I have been caught up in my own issues lately. I can relate because I do this too! I have had some trouble with sharing about it here openly, though, since I have been told that other people don't relate and that my talking about things that other people don't relate to is attention-seeking on my part. It is difficult to talk about this sort of thing to a therapist so I understand your reluctance to bring up the issue in therapy.

I went to a concert on Thursday night and my sister's boyfriend (who gave me the complimentary ticket and was paying for my drinks) brought along a friend of his. I asked him if he was trying to set me up with this guy, who is also married (so am I), and he said something about that being a possibility if I were to get drunk enough (he also gives me pot to smoke) that my "alter ego" takes over. I actually left that night because I have no desire to be with this other guy and I was not going to allow that to be a possibility. It upset me so much that I had been "set-up" that I ended up calling my therapist on her cell phone (how rude and embarrassing!) because I was lost in downtown Seattle and did not know if I should try finding my way back to the Show Box and completing the evening with my sister and her boyfriend (and this other married man) or if I should keep looking for the highway so I could get away from there. She helped me find the highway and told me that I could choose not to go back, even though my sister called and her boyfriend told me to return to the concert.

I am glad that I was able to recognize the situation for what it was (it was clearly a set-up) and that I left when I did, before I got too drunk and before I smoked any pot. I am going to have to avoid spending time with my sister when she is with her boyfriend because he is using my "alter ego" to his benefit. My sister ended up with her boyfriend and his friend in the hotel room that night (I had been invited to spend the night with them) and since I wasn't there, she ended up in a threesome with the two guys. She called me the next day (yesterday) to tell me how upset and disgusted she was with herself for what she did with him. Maybe my not being there for her will help her see what she is doing to herself and her own life. I am not responsible for protecting her the way I protected my younger sister growing up.

I just can't get past the idea that maybe what I'm doing is o.k. I know that most people look down on escorting as a "living", but the guys I see are gentlemen and they treat me respectfully. They don't seem sick or desperate as would be expected; they're just lonely and if their time spent with me makes them feel better, then what's the problem? Also, the fact that I've been unemployed since I lost my last "real job" doesn't help either. I have an interview coming up next week, for a really great job, but I also have two "clients" scheduled that day (one in the morning before the interview, one after). I know it sounds really warped, but making money this way IS somewhat empowering to me. I think if society didn't judge escorts, I'd be just fine with doing it. It's the fact that I have a bf and we've been together for over a year, that I'm hiding this from him, and putting him in danger, that bothers me. Sad that I'm more worried about him finding out than I am about getting in legal trouble or getting an STD. I really don't think I can actually say these things to another person in real life, much less my old therapist. I think I just need to hear that what I'm doing is wrong and that I should stop immediately. I know I'm the only one who can make that choice.

Dear warped,
You want to hear what you're doing is wrong...? Reread what you wrote last week, sweetie -


Then there's the sabotaging of your relationship with your bf, a relationship that seems important to you.

W, you used the word compulsively... you used the phrase "scares the hell out of me"... You *are* hurting yourself, you sense it, and in moments of clarity you admit it to yourself [ie. above and... don't want to tell your T?].

shoot, I'm concerned for you and I don't even know you. :comfort

~ jr

Sorry to come to this thread late, but I wanted to ask you a few things cos I have pretty personal experience working in this industry. I don't miss the work now, I certainly don't mss how I used to feel about myself, in moments of clarity.




I am not sure that you are convinced if "society" didn't judge this then it is ok for you to do? The rest of your thread sounds more about your personal feelings than about societies feelings. What I know of my own experiences with this, is that if anyone had confronted me about it, I was armed full of responses about what society allows or doesn't allow for and exactly what I thought of "society".

It very much sounds like you are making your own judgements of your self, based on your own deep seated opinions about what you are doing? what do you think?

Without feeling shame could I suggest to you it might be an easier thing to discuss with people. You don't want to be judged and yet are saying



You also acknowledge previously that the pot smoking and drinking is a way of numbing self down, so how would you be feeling if you werent numbing down?

Ok serious question here if your best mate, sister, cousin someone close to you suggested they may take this up for a living, what would you say them?

Of course I would tell them not to do it. But they're not the ones who can't land a fucking J-O-B. It's not easy when you have to explain to potential employers that you used to have a "little problem" with stealing things, but that you received treatment for your personality disorder and now this behavior is not a problem.

Guys, thanks for all the help-I appreciate it immensely, as I don't think I'd get this kind of support elsewhere. I've never even talked with another person who does/has done what I'm doing, and it's truly amazing to realize that I'm telling myself what I know is right/wrong for me, but just not hearing it. Thanks for pointing that out, because I think many of my "target behaviors" revolve around power/control-it's extremely important for me to feel that I'm the one making the decisions.

I've "retired" from escorting in the past. I know I can do it again. I know that this behavior is "wrong" for me, but I don't judge myself or anyone else who does so. Thanks for doing the same. I love you all and I wish I could sit around in group therapy with you and listen to your thoughts.

I just wish I could shake the fact that I make more than my bf, while I've supposedly been unemployed, and he's been supporting me financially. It's not fair that I have this money, that I could have been paying the rent, that he's been working his ass off just so we have milk money. God I fucking hate myself, thinking about this. I'd do anything to erase this from my memory so I can feel like a decent human being again.

I worked as a prostitute for awhile when I was 18 to 20, which is probably why this has become an issue in my life again. I can't remember much about the prostitution since I was also drinking and using enough drugs so that I was not very aware of what I was doing at the time.

I suggest you put some thought into why you are doing this because that will help you look at the pros and cons. I know I was doing it for the money but I also know that it was a power trip for me. One of the things I liked to do for "fun" was to "cold-cock" a guy (be a cock tease and leave him with "blue balls"). What I enjoyed most about bringing a man to orgasm was the fact that he was at his weakest at that moment and I felt like I was somehow absorbing his strength. It made me feel powerful when sex had made me feel powerless when it was taken from me forcefully. To profit from a man's weakness was the ultimate trip.

I am willing to help you work though this if you want but you will need to decide what you want to do. I can't tell you what to do. Heck, I barely listen to myself! LOL

Thanks, DB. I really do need to look at the pros and cons. i think a lot of my motivation for this behavior has its roots in my views on sex/sexuality. the buzz i get from it is the fact that I could don't give a damn about myself when I'm with my clients, so it's like I'm making a profit from nothing on my part. It also adds to the feeling of being objectified. I do have sadomasochistic (mostly masochistic) tendencies, and this is the reason why not engaging in this behavior is so hard for me. It IS rewarding when I am able to "eroticize" (sp?) my feelings of self-loathing, boredom with life, anger, and the sense of not being in control of anything. I think this is the reason I don't want to talk to a therapist about this. I left DBT (hopefully) with people thinking I was o.k. I'd almost rather keep letting people think so.

I also like the fact that I can profit by giving something that has no value to me. I lost my virginity at the age of eight (after being molested beginning in infancy) so sex has never carried much meaning for me. I figure as long as the guy gets off, he gets what he wants and it is no crime for me to take advantage of that. I used to think it would serve me right to die as a result of what I have done so in a way it has been a bit of a death wish for me. I could be a bit masochistic as well.

I also understand about wanting people to think you are okay. I struggle with the same desire. I know that I am a worthless piece of shit. Once you are fucked, you will never be virginal again! It sucks but that is reality. I try so hard to be a "good person" and yet I know that is an impossible goal for someone who has been as bad as I have been. I wish there was a way to beat out the devil but the truth remains that I was born with a dark heart that the light will not penetrate. So I stopped giving a shit about my life, knowing that there is no great value in it.

I don't know how therapy can help. I honestly don't think it can. All it does is illuminate the insanity so it can be used against us more effectively. I don't know that I have ever done a very good job of convincing others that I am okay, even though I want them to leave me alone. Life will kill us all some day so it might as well be sooner than later.

I can say it is possible to decide to stop and to stop because I have done just that in the past. If you don't want to do something, you won't. Once it makes you sick enough, you will run from it.

Denim Blue, there is so much conflict, despair, and bitterness in what you posted above, I won't go into commenting here since it is warped's thread. Suffice it to say for now, here's a couple definitions...
masochism: the tendency to derive pleasure, esp. sexual gratification, from one's own pain or humiliation.
self-deception: the action or practice of allowing oneself to believe that a false or unvalidated feeling, idea, or situation is true.


warped - aside from what sounds to me like rationalization, the situations you are voluntarily putting your relationship in [infidelity, deception, exposure to stds] indicate a possibility of self-sabotage. You might be able to ease up on that guilt by discussing this with your boyfriend rather than a T, eh? [I'd probably pick the T.] Keeping it to yourself in Real Life, I guarantee you, will cause all those bad feelings to fester and infect anything you care about.

I'm thinking you might be alleviating the money problems, control issues, and the feelings of worthlessness temporarily with how you're handling them now, but then you beat yourself up 10x's worse for it... much more than anyone else could.


~ jr

Is this the DSM-IV definition of masochism? Because, trust me, I understand that the consensus among the practicing mental health community is that this is a disorder/sickness/perversion that warrants treatment. Do you agree with this medical opinion? Because I am not so sure that is such a maladaptive behavior, at least on my part. Like you said, it's a way-albeit temporary-of me coping with my negative/destructive feelings and urges. But is that such a "bad" thing? I think I'm being "effective" and "doing what works." But I do have mixed feelings about this. I think it's ok. to judge this behavior as "bad," but to acknowledge that it is serving a purpose, that it's not entirely compulsive, that I have "control" of it.


Trust, I'm very aware of the term, self-invalidation as well. I've been doing it every day for years.


What if I were to do this for years? What if I got to the point where I'm comfortable with it? I'm already pretty close to that, rationalization or not. How could it infect/fester when I'm o.k. with it? I don't know where I'm going with this, but it's a pervasive thought.



edited quote tags - SG

Hey, I'm jumping in late here, too and sorry for crashing the party when it's in full-swing, so to speak...



Part of having BPD is having coping mechanisms, learned in situations where we had little control of the outcome - witness what (((Denim))) had to go through, and the abuse (((so many others))) on this site endured.

We did what we could to survive what was happening at the time. There is no shame in that. As children, we did the best we could.

But those coping mechanisms persist into adulthood, where they become dysfunctional and unhealthy. Instead of thinking in terms of "bad" etc, think in terms of health since that's what we're trying to do here at BPDR, to learn healthy ways of behaving, right?

You mentioned DBT's "effectiveness", and I don't know if you were being tongue-in-cheek or seeking to use DBT to justify unhealthy behavior or meaning something else entirely (sorry if I've misread you). But is doing something you seem to think is not so healthy truly "effective"? That question is for you to answer, please don't feel you have to defend your behavior to me, I'm not judging it. Once again, you're probably doing what you can to survive what is happening now. But the thing is, you do have control now, unlike when you were a powerless kid. You can make choices now, unlike when you were a helpless kid. How nice it would be for yourself if you could make the healthy choice now.

ps- I agree with what many have mentioned - that the answer you seek lies in yourself, and you sound as though you know what's best. So I hope I haven't been lecturing you all about something you're the most qualified to handle! Just my thoughts on the situation.

All best,
Marni

ooops, forgot to add, if you are truly "ok with it" , why have you posted here?

My assumption being that if you really were comfortable with the "rightness" of your actions, you probably wouldn't have taken the time to post and would have just continued acting in that way, right?

I could be wrong.

Warped, I was just throwing out those definitions [from the dictionary, btw] mostly for Denim Blue, even though it was a good reminder for me and anyone else who might mistake 'masochism' for self-injurious behavior - the difference being masochism = "deriving pleasure, esp. sexual" whereas having sex to feel empowered or to act out in self-destructive ways doesn't sound like the sex is all that pleasurable. (I didn't even know that 'masochism' is in the DSM.) Do you derive actual pleasure from the sex you engage in with strangers? or is it more that you feel less emotional pain and more control?


How can it infect/fester when you're ok with it? Good question.
I'm going by the fact that you're here and, for the most part, your own words.
I get that your say you feel ok with being an escort, that it's society's problem. I'm not judging you; I don't have anything against that choice as long as you're truly comfortable with it and it's not hurting you or someone else.

But. I also see that you yourself say you do have trouble with it, if not for your own conflicting feelings about it, then certainly your relationship with your bf.

Hon', I'm not going to engage in arguing whether or not your behavior is detrimental for you. You said it scared the hell out of you, right? That's what I'm going on.

Thanks again, guys.

Oceanheart, I really was using those DBT skill terms in context. That's the way I really feel about what I'm doing. I am being effective and doing what works for me in this situation, regardless of how much better i *could* be handling this behavior that I'm engaging in *that I, myself don't fully understand*.

Yes, you are both right. I posted here because I wanted to hear the opinions of health-oriented individuals. I'm not looking for validation for this behavior. I think I'll quit when/if I get this job. I'm thinking about cancelling/rescheduling my "appointments" on the day of my interview. I might be in a better mindset if I don't go into the interview after being with a client.

I'm going to take some time away from this forum, but I'm going to take all your thoughts and what you've shared with me as well. I need to take some time to meditate on this and decide if I need to schedule an interview with my old therapist. I appreciate all the kind words. Thanks again.

Meditating is good.

fwiw, w, I do mean this...

Hoping you'll be back around to share your thoughts - not only on you, but I also believe you have a lot to offer.

take care,
~ jr