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i wanted to discuss this word a bit. i find myself in the place betrayal has come up. someone else here mentioned it. so i wanted to look at it.

wow.
To give aid or information to an enemy of; commit treason against: betray one's country.
To deliver into the hands of an enemy in violation of a trust or allegiance: betrayed Christ to the Romans.
To be false or disloyal to: betrayed their cause; betray one's better nature.
To divulge in a breach of confidence: betray a secret.
To make known unintentionally: Her hollow laugh betrayed her contempt for the idea.
To reveal against one's desire or will.
To lead astray; deceive.

what a strong word. i didnt realize that.

lets see how i would define how i feel. betrayed. someone i liked, cared about their view of me, let me down. i expected diff behavior and didnt receive what i expected from them. that would be on me, in a way. not entirely, cause i think reasonable expectations of someone are not necessarily a bad thing. we all have them in the world. its when someone doesnt live up to, or lives down to, behaviors that we stop and say WHA?

for me, it results in a lack of respect for that person. a lack of trust. it hurts because i "thought" they would do this...and they did that.

once i see it was their own behavior and crap, i can let go of that expectation. i wont have it again, for sure. but i think the hurt is ok to have. its human to have. its like,,someone throws a ball at you and you cant catch it and it hits you between the eyes. you "expected" they wouldnt throw it till you could catch it. its a form of disrespect to you as a person because its unexpected.

so i think its ok i have the hurt from it. but they lost the most, because they lost my respect and caring for them. and i have big time loyalty traits and respect. i will do anything for a person i respect and care for. i will do little for one i dont. i wont let them get hurt or die...i dont mean that. but i wont walk out of my way to help, or be nice, or say hi.

now lets say its a policeman who betrayed you. thats worse right because you --I---have expectations from his taking on the badge. so people in a higher position of any type of authority have a greater degree of being able to betray someone. watch what you take on, it comes with responsibilities. you cant want the badge without the duty. doesnt work. and i have known many police officers who havent figured that out yet.
'
well, guess what? the power comes with responsibilities.

i think ultimately i will end up knowing betrayal is possible. and its ok to feel hurt over it, its ok to not like it, but that its a fact of life and karma will come back to them somehow someday. i dont have to be shitty back, i can be nice to them. but underneath i will be more wary. i will learn what to own vs what not to own. another lesson.

they chose the behavior. they will pay for it. even if it is just a loss of respect from another human, thats a great loss.

a word used above from the dictionary hit it for me. loyalty. something very important to me. disloyal. exactly. i value it highly, i give it totally, and i hate disloyalty.

allegiance, constancy, faithfulness, fealty, fidelity, steadfastness

this one fits me better than the "love" one. its more what i mean. constancy. something lacking in my childhood or adulthood. something i treasure, as its so rare. im afraid of people not constant.

and that could well bring up another thread, but i will keep it in this one. what i am uncomfortable with is inconsistency. i dont like it because i dont know what is expected of me in behaviors. i dont like being gotten to for something i didnt know i did. i dont mind the reminders, respectfully.. i dont like the kicking ass for it. no person would and this is definetly inner child stuff.

everyone feels best in a constant world. it usually isnt constant, but i feel safer in one. i know what is wrong, right, and i am not afraid of the grays because i know im not gonna be hurt when i miss a gray. inconsistency means pain...its all i know. and pain means fear of it.

consistentcy is so important. as is loyalty.

ah, im getting a better idea of why it hurt me. it hurt worse than the original issue! why? because of my caring. my needing consistent stuff in my life. it returned me to a place of fear for awhile. i turned that place into a place of ok, i dont care because you cant really hurt me too badly (adult mind). i wont let you. but i mourn the passing of the connection with the people involved.

once someone breaks my trust enough, i have this place i will not go back from. its done. its gone. i hate hitting that place. i grieve it wont be back ever. i just cant risk being hurt any longer in that place. so maybe it comes down to grief and loss.

what else can this person do? where else will the disloyalty come into play? no trust comes back into the picture.

hmmm.

Hi Jody = I posted this in the 'Gossip' thread, but mean't to put it here. Oopsy :shock :halo

Very well said, Candle!

i didnt read it as such....it comes across for me more as no choice, or a wrong one. whatever.

i will, however, say i learned i DID/DO have a choice. i have a choice of a third kind. i can ignore, which i do choose sometimes. i can argue or be shitty back, not one i do. ok, not usually. occasionally. or i can confront in a healthy way and still let the person know i didnt like what he was doing or saying.

i didnt see that explained, and didnt see a choice was offered or chosen.

thus, i will leave it at this...saying i dont agree with the fact that choosing to confront makes me a victim. the end.

hows that?

aww candle, nice thing to say. you hold me in regard. i wish your sweetness would rub off on me but alas, i think it never will. i dont know why you do...lol...i aint a nice person.

what you said made far MORE sense than anything i have read in a long time about this stuff.

having said that, what has this got to do with betrayal?

lol....

betrayal is part of my stuff., which is why i began this thread.

any views on that, Candle? how to overcome it, handle it, deal with it. so far i am doing the dont confront or mention it. i still dont know how to let it go tho. when its someone one holds in "regard" and they do it to ya?

Howdy again, ((Jody)):

Yeah, this is the sucky part. The only thing that has helped me is time and more time and, after crying and then feeling angry and then crying some more, eventually trying to force myself to pray for their well-being until I actually can, ... which takes a darn LOT of time depending on the situ., and sometimes, sadly, never happens = not completely anyway.

I guess this strategy falls under the 'radical forgiveness' catagory, (which I would be doing for my benefit - to release myself from negativity and them having power over my feelings by me continuing to expend my life thinking about them/tied to them because of my being upset about them, etc. ...

But certainly, if the person is still alive and if I want to continue a relationship with them, I would try to set things out on the table in a respectful confrontation, (hopefully :shysmile ), and see if we could sort it out like you were saying in the other thread.

They have books out there on 'conflict resolution' and "Getting To Yes" and all of that, but it's so difficult when one is feeling the raw emotion of betrayal. That's where I guess one can only hope for time and space, (during which, hopefully, the tools are used), to get some distance and additional perspective on whatever happened.

This is one of the toughest things in life, I think = about betrayal I mean, and if one has a childhood filled with it, but no way of knowing the name for it or how to handle it, (or really even recognize it much less process it at the time), subsequent 'betrayal' of far less magnitude can, at least in my experience, really trigger all of those horrendous feelings with no name and the betrayal of the moment takes on much larger proportions than it would absent that kind of background.

That really is why I find adding 'triggered?' to the HALT[T} questions become key for me and, actually, I think you have a similar acronym that, likewise, prompts you to ask yourself if you are triggered by whatever the current thing is to the past.

Geez, for the life of me I can't remember the initials you use, but they mean something similar to HALT ???

Anyhoo ... I'm rambling ...

As ever,

J.

your not rambling. stop saying that. (please)

i dont cry for many. certainly not myself. only my kids or grandkids. so i dont have that step.

and maybe that is my answer. karma will come around and acceptance they are not trustworthy and be glad i learned that. well, people who have no sense of loyalty. people who like to watch car wrecks until its their car that is hit, ya know?

i do not care to be friends with someone who betrays me. i can be polite, respectful, and calm. but i am holding myself far away from those people, and thats their loss. i also was shown a bit of their character, and that sends a wave of pity thru me for them.

i have found there are some things not able to be sorted. mainly because one person wont admit they were wrong or even the possibility. so i dont resolve well, or try much. it is what it is, and it is done. if im ever around "normals"..i have lots to learn!

ty for replying candle. appreciated! you always seem to understand feelings so well.

Betrayal sucks.

• Dad left when I was 11 and married my 2nd grade teacher. [She'd been my favorite teacher - 'til then. :/ ]
• Mom married an verbally, emotionally, and physically abusive man when I was 13. [She once told me not to worry - that he didn't hit her, though, just me and my brother. ]
(• Ex-husband ...well, I'm not even going to go there.)
• My daughter ['step' actually, but I raised her for 10 years] actually filed charges falsely accusing me of abusing her so that she'd go live with her bio-mom.

Being a loyal-type creature yet one who has habitually held most people at arm's length, to me betrayal knocks the wind out of me... totally drains any feeling from my body.

When I stop reeling long enough and realize that I feel hurt and am allowed to feel hurt, that there is actually a reason and it's not abnormal, that old 'trust' level is certainly affected. I love my dad, mom, stepdad, stepmom, and especially my daughter, and... evidently that won't change. But 'trust'...? That's a different floor for me.

And 'respect'. Like you said, jody, a bit of a 'respect deficiency' shows in their account with me until the offense is addressed sufficiently, if ever.

'Forgiveness'. Sometimes I can't forgive the act, but it's a relief when I feel forgiveness toward the person. That comes eventually, with time, with a bittersweet realization that everyone is human and nowhere near perfect. Not to mention the fact that I am not privy to the Universal Big Picture... It's better for me that way.

I guess a lot really depends upon the level of investment, like Candle noted.


interesting discussion,
~ jr

ty for sharing, jr. i see it hit a spot with you , also.

Wow - betrayal! This hit me big-time. The whole issue I had with my ex-friend J was an issue of betrayal. She betrayed my trust. She betrayed my friendship. She betrayed my loyalty to her.

I have forgiven her. I will not forget what she did. I still don't trust her. But she is forgiven. When I see her, I am polite. I am even a bit friendly. But all trust is gone.

I now have reason to believe that she is STILL talking about me to people. About my "problems". So my sense of betrayal has been brought to the surface again. I thought the wound was closed, but I see it's still a bit open. Where I thought maybe, possibly, we could have a dialogue, well, that's not a possibility. I don't have proof that she's been talking about me, but I'm 99 9/10th percent sure. I do not intend to confront her. It's not worth it to me. It would be my word against hers. And I don't want to make things worse. But I am on guard and have closed the door on any reconciliation. The feelings of betrayal are back.

I am in the Radical Acceptance mode about this. This is what she did, and I just accept it for what it is. I dont' think that I'm that important that she should still be talking about me, but that's her stuff, not mine.

I dont' want to have that investment in this. I'll just deal with each issue if and when it comes up.

i thought about your friend when i began this, BG.

since i have this 20 in laws who are all nutty as a fruitcake, they make anyone with bpd seem quite normal all the time. i ended up deciding this about them all.

if it is not said to my face, i dont care.

if it is not said to my face, i dont believe it happened.

they can yap all they want behind my back, which they do because one of the sisters invariably tells me and embellishes it. (sends me letters from one of the other sisters). i told her i dont care, and i dont. if blaming me and saying what a horrible person i am helps them somehow, more power to em.

if they come to my house, they do not come in. i can get a trespass warning from the cops in 10 mins.

i dont answer the phone when they call.

they are my Hs adopted kin and his business only.

they will not be around my kids or grandkids.

if they talk, more likely WHEN, party on! i dont care nor listen.

this saves a ton of worry and energy over is she saying this or i heard jane doe said this about you! i always say, she did? COOL.

if she comes to my face with it, i will bitch slap her cross eyed.

would that help you not worry so much about these others who really mean nothing?

I'm not really worrying about what they're saying. I'm more perplexed about it. I didn't think my life was that interesting. I think what bothers me the most is the way it's being done. It's not a gossipy thing where they say "hey did you hear BG did this?" No, it's more like "Yes, poor BG, she is having "problems" and is backing away from our organization. Poor BG." So the perpetrator is talking behind my back in what she believes is a conciliatory manner, where she acts like she really cares about my welfare. What she's doing is keeping the issue of my past depression alive, causing people to think of me as this pathetic fragile person. Which is quite ironic because she's the one who originally told me that I use my depression to gain sympathy from people. And SHE's the one who's bandying it about, not me! I don't know why she still invests herself in this behavior.

I won't confront her or say anything. I'm the only one who knows the truth about me. My good friends know the truth. She is talking to people who know me only peripherally. They can think what they want. I just find it odd that she still invests so much time and energy in this.

(emphasis added)

How do you know this is being done intentionally?
If "she believes" that she is acting in a concilliatory manner, could it be that she acts with good or neutral intention?
Since you "won't confront her or say anything", how can you be sure that she's acting from a malicious motive? If you won't tell her what's bothering you, what chance does she have of correcting that behavior?

Good intentions CAN have bad outcomes.
Thoughtlessness can have bad outcomes.
Selfishness can have bad outcomes.

Nearly all those definitions of betrayal involve an intentional component. People INTEND to cause harm. That isn't usually the case. Most of the people who have caused me harm have done so out of ignorance, thoughtlessness and selfishness - not malice. Harm may occur, and it may well change my interactions (or lack thereof) with that individual. I still draw a distinction between those who SEEK to cause me harm and those who ACCIDENTALLY cause me harm.

Holding on to the idea that everyone who ever hurt me did so "on purpose" led me into paranoia, mistrust, hostility and isolation. It hurt me and it hurt those around me. And if I am unwilling to grasp the idea that others cause harm without intending, then how much more harshly do I judge myself when I do the same thing? I can't have one rule for me and another rule for everyone else - that splits me away from the real world and creates a duality I cannot reconcile. If I "just" make a mistake and screw up, then so can they.

I'm not saying that everything's OK and people are free to act badly toward me. that's not it at all! I have been very hurt by the behavior of others, and it does affect my desire to interact with them. I can be hurt...and when that happens, I can and do re-evaluate which people I want to keep in my life.

What I'm saying...not every harm is a betrayal. Not every harm is an act of ill will, an intentional wound. Does it happen sometimes? Sure! But most people aren't out to get me. A lot of them didn't even see I was in the way...

I want to comment on this post too. My immediate thoughts on it were betrayal is such a strong word to use when a person fails to meet somebody else's expectations. I mean, for a start how do I know what anybody else's expectations of me are? If they are set unrealistically high, and no error is allowed, then yeah, I'm going to fuck up and betray you. If I set my expectation too low, I allow all kinds of abuse and shit to come my way. So the solution for me, is to not have expectations of people. The solution is to allow others to just be themselves.

Secondly, it isn't up to anybody here to give Jody the childhood she never had. None of us can be completely consistent, completely reliable, completely predictable and completely perfect all of the time. It's just not a possibility.

I wonder if what happens is A falls off the pedestal that B put her on (as will always be the case cause none of us are perfect) but instead of seeing A's misdemeanour in it's own right for what it is, it gets lumped in with the misdemeanours of C, D, E, F, the whole alphabet of people, from the past (most probably childhood) and all of sudden what was a "let down" becomes this almighty massive betrayal and because they can never be forgiven, A can never be forgiven?

I also wanted to comment on this idea:

Seems nonsensical to me. Nobody can make me feel anything. If another has no respect for me, then that's their problem, not mine. It doesn't hurt me or worry me, unless they are directly abusing me in return. I know who I am and who I am is ok. People can disrespect me all they want.

Lack of respect for people, only harms the person doing the disrespecting - all the anger, all that mistrust, all that hating of somebody, what a lot of wasted energy! It must be exhausting carrying all those grudges, harbouring all those horrible feelings about people who failed to meet your expectations. What a lot of pain one causes oneself.

I think it is good to be wary of those who may have harmed us in some way. I think it pays to re-examine the motives and intentions of that person as well as to see what input you might have had in the situation; because it's not usually as one-sided as it appears. Often in a situation there will be mistakes on both sides.

Just MHO that many use the word betrayal to describe simple misunderstandings that occur in day to day life, because of the "backlog" of hurts from childhood. What should be a simple "I feel hurt because A did ............." turns into "I feel betrayed" because of the intensity of the feelings (all the feelings about the past added to the in the moment stuff.)

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Amen, amen...

Forgiveness isn't really for the other person - it's for me. Forgiveness is the way I set down and let go of the old burdens and resentments. I can carry the pain and bitterness for the rest of my life if I choose, but what sort of life is that for me?

I really like the thought that I do not need to forgive the act.
I also don't want to get confused into thinking that "forgive" means "it's OK". That doesn't have to be true. It wasn't OK and it isn't OK. I am under no obligation to let the same thing happen to me again. I am choosing today to set it down and stop carrying that pain with me.

I don't even have to tell the person that I've chosen to forgive them.

I say "choice" but it's a process of willingness, to the best of my ability today. To be willing to let go of my past hurts. To accept responsibility for my current situation. To aim to move forward instead of back.

You're right Minx. I don't know for sure that she is acting conciliatory. I don't believe I said she was malicious. Actually, I don't know what her motives are, if any. As I said, I'm just perplexed as to why she bothers talking about me at all. It makes me uneasy.

I am not going to confront her. I don't have the energy. I brought it up here because the topic came up and also because I learned she has been talking about me again. Basically I want to be left alone. I can't stop people from talking about me. But I can wonder why they would bother to do so. I don't believe this person is out to do me "harm". But we're not friends anymore and I would have thought I would not be a topic of conversation. No matter what her motives were, I still feel betrayed by her past actions. I dont' know if her actions now were intentional or not. But it still makes me uneasy.

I also want to say that I have forgiven her. I did that last year. And I don't know if what she originally did was out of malice. Probably not. She has her own issues. But I did feel betrayed as a friend. Whether what she did was out of maliciousness, fear, selfishness, whatever - I still felt betrayed.

i dont forgive well. i dont usually EVER forget.

i agree its dependent on intent. intent or stupidity.

It's so hard to know another's motives. And even if you ask them, you might not learn the true reason. They may not even know for sure why they did what they did.

I choose to leave it alone because it won't be productive to learn the answer. It won't benefit me. If I really wanted to repair the friendship I might have inquired, but I don't want to repair the friendship. I honestly don't believe I can trust this person and feel a resumption of the friendship would not be in my best interest.

It took me a long time to forgive, but I feel that I have. I don't think about her much anymore. And if I do think about her, I don't feel bad anymore. So I have moved on. I don't know why she feels she has to continue discussing me with others, but that's her issue. I'm trying to learn how to not let that affect me now.

I suppose one of the things I am looking at...When we used emotionally charged language, we feel emotionally charged. You speak of feeling "betrayed". That's a really strong word for a really strong feeling, and I know you DO feel strongly about what occurred. I'm suggesting that we sometimes use strong words to reflect our strong feelings without paying attention to what the word actually MEANS. As we continue to use these strong words, they can reinforce our strong feelings. The stronger our feelings become, the harder it is to maintain our level of control.

Jody posted some definitions for "betray", and I find it interesting that nearly all of them refer to an intentional act. If the word speaks to intent and my "situation" was caused without intent, why would I continue to use such a heavy word? Matter of fact, why would I want to keep such a heavy word around?

Letting go of the language is part of letting go of the pain. Letting go of the language opens the first tendrils of forgiveness.

My XBF the drunk betrayed me/my trust on many occasions - sneaking out with his XGF, visiting "massage parlors", stealing money form my purse and so on. I could choose to hang on to how "He betrayed me" and I wouldn't be incorrect - but that sort of thinking keeps me tied to that pain and anger and fear.

It keeps my focus on the other person.

When I am focused on other people, I am powerless to help myself because I cannot do anything about THEM. I cannot learn how to care for myself because I am looking at THEM. I remain at the "mercy of the universe" because I am thinking about THEM.

Emotions and feelings happen, and while the pain is fresh, they are completely reasonable. But as time passes, I have the choice to move forward and away from that pain, or I can stay stuck there, reliving it every time I think about it. By taking the focus off of "what they did to me" and returning it to "how can I handle this in the future" I bring my thoughts back to the one thing I CAN control.

I come back into my own power, and I can learn from the experience. It seems like simple, stupid thing - to change the words I use, but the words I use are a direct reflection of my perception. If I want to change my perception, if I want to let go of feeling hurt and helpless, I can start by changing my words. I may have been betrayed, but I do not need to remain that way.

I agree with you Minx. Words have a powerful effect. I don't recall if I ever said I felt my friend "betrayed" me. But when I read Jody's post, it seemed like that is what she did. Maybe it is a strong word. But as I said, I don't think about her much anymore. And when I do, it's not with any heavy emotion. I am really so much better about it than I was a year ago.

I was thinking back to last year. I recently was invited to an event next month. This is a community-wide event that I was invited to last year. My friend showed up and I remember having an anxiety attack in the car when I saw her car there. I am sooo much different this year. I can be in the same room as her and not give a crap. Things are so much better.

I just looked up the definition of "betrayal." Okay, she did not betray me. It might have seemed like it to me, but it wasn't. So I will say that she didn't treat me nicely. I don't want that heavy emotional baggage tied to that incident. I'm happy to let it go. Thanks Minx!

Minx, thank you for showing us that the words do have heavy meaning. I for one need to think real hard about the words I use to express how I feel, without just tossing them about. I should have a dictionary by my side at all times (lol). Really, I appreciate this. It helps change the context of what you're feeling when you use the appropriate words. Thank you!!!!

online is a dictionary. very easy to use and right on IE anytime. or yahoo search.

depends if i ever find out how intentional vs ignorant my betrayal was as to what i decide to call it.

it is so obvious, no way it was "oversight".

could be intent by omission, which brings up a whole new thread.

dont know yet.

i only know how i feel. and i feel betrayed. let down. shoved aside. invalidated. ignored. as if i am not important enough to "count".

and my feelings are mine. important to me. but im not a fence sitter who wont mention it and sit around feeling sorry for myself and become passive aggressive to others with my anger. been there, done that, it is pointless and immature.