BPDRecovery.com: Forums

Hey Sarah!

Sure.

I know for a FACT that SCL's and CL's discuss others on here. I know there was talk a while ago, recent talk, about kicking "some undesirables" off.

Isn't that "gossip"? Aren't S/CL's making some pretty significant judgments about another's 'recovery'or lack thereof?

Isn't that 'planting seeds' in another S/CL's mind about another on here? Is that being impeccable with one's words? Are judgments being made?

So, I find it truly ironic that an SCL brings up how two "gossiped" about her behind her back and how it hurt. It isn't a huge step to get in the other person's shoes that was being "gossiped" about by S/CL's, now is it? The exception is that the two "gossiping" about the SCL most likely do not have the authority, the ability to kick this SCL off BPDR or even lock her thread. (If indeed this was happening on BPDR. Which, BTW, when asked, the SCL refuses to answer.)

It brings up that issue of how private are PM's on here? I'm not completely sold on "well within minutes, these people posting would say pretty much the same thing" explanation about the supposed "coalition".

Coming from my own personal experience on BPDR, I've had a SCL take something I said, twist it and attribute it to another. In fact, it was used 'offensively' (as opposed to defensively) against that other.

The other irony that I see is that one on here was taking pot shots at another. Then the other was told to not take it personally. OK. That's fine, but
it's damn hard to do when it is posted right there in your face. At least the two gossiping about another had the decency to do it behind the other's back.

And you know what? I really don't care about this stuff anymore. I don't think BPDR is a healthy, balanced Forum; it has taken a toxic turn.

Seeds were planted that S/CL's cannot post about their problems on here anymore. Me? I get feedback I have to sift through or someone takes my post/thread off topic? Do I get to pick up my marbles, shout "this is unfair", lock the thread , run home, and start my own coalition to get this "undesirable" person (in my book) kicked off the playground?

Just curious, Sarah, did a SCL ask you to post what you did? :halo

Hi GH. I'll be more than happy to answer your questions. I left the other thread because that thread's purpose for me was done, not because I was avoiding your questions. You questions were irrelevant to what I was posting about.

With that said, let me first ask you a question.



I can ask you the same questions you were asking me. How do you know this for a fact when you don't have access to the SCL/CL room? Is someone trying to stir shit up by saying this to you? Could it be you're projecting?

As to where my issue was happening... it's none of your business. Period. Whether I'm an SCL or a CL or just a community member. Where it happened was irrelevant. I really can't help that you're currently feeling so paranoid that, what, did you think I was talking about you?

As for whether the SCLs talk about board members, yes, we do. It's not something we do for fun. It's part of the job. As SCLs, we have to deal with disruptions by talking about what's going on between us, coming up with the board's response (as opposed to an individual SCL's response.) We also have to make decisions whether to ban or not (ala BFG). How could we possibly do that without talking about the things that are going on on the board? If you have a suggestion on how to better make those decisions for the board, I'd be happy to hear it.

Nobody asked Sarah to post this. And I didn't lock my Gossip thread. You can post in it all you want.

GH, if you're feeling so paranoid about the board's management and feeling that this place is so toxic for you, why do you remain here?

Perhaps, just perhaps, Trinity, there are those that I've come to care about one here.

But, I got it now. Actually, I found a FORUM on MSN that is very concise on it's ROE. What one can and cannot do. It is a forum where many different people partcipate in. Where there are more NON's than those with PD's being put in a position of power.

There is a thread on here of a woman who was "cured" from BPD but has since slipped back into some of her old ways. Is there ever a "recovered"? Doubtful. And yet this website advertises that there is a "recovered".

You got me - I just don't give a damn.

I am a non.

I believe there are different levels of recovery from anything. There are beginning stages and further along stages. My step-daughter was diagnosed with BPD and BiP. She went through extensive therapy and hard work and has had the dx of BPD removed. She is considered "recovered."

Personally, I think the term recovering may apply, similarly to the way those with addictions refer to recovery from the addiction. A person who works hard at not exhibiting X behavior is continuously working toward avoiding that behavior. There are good days and bad days. Humanity is a reality and perfection is a stretch.

What about the rest of my post, GH?

Some people have their cancer healed into permanent remission, never to come back. Others have the same encouraging laboratory results after treatment, yet suffer a relapse months or years later. Both would qualify as "cured" at some point. And that's a physical disease with blood and tissue markers that can be pretty definitively tested. Mental illness isn't that concrete. Cured?

That's a pretty black and white word to me. Life is a continuum. "Borderline" thoughts and behavior are merely extreme, distorted forms of perfectly normal human behavior. Most commonly accepted "character flaws" are just natural impulses gone haywire. So if most people go through these sorts of feelings to some small degree, then NOBODY is completely free from BPD, are they?

And if we don't discuss issues to come to consensus, we cannot agree on a course of action. Then the community accuses us of doing nothing in times of crisis.
"I can't believe you aren't doing anything about X!!"
That's because we take this stuff seriously. I don't know anyone throwing around consequences for nothing. Actions get discussed and approved as a group. And for anyone you may believe is saying "throw the bums out" there is another member speaking up to say "don't do anything, they're learning". You may have a "fact", but no single "fact" tells more than one side of the story.

How would you suggest crises be handled if leadership did NOT discuss problem issues?

This topic (including the tangent it took in the original topic Trinity was addressing) has helped me realize that I have a "sent box" that is 93% full of PMs from the past two years so I am going to be clearing it out as I have the time. I just managed to clear out my inbox and I need to get some other things done away from BRDR at the moment so I will have to come back to it later.

I make it a policy to not communicate in PM unless it is with someone I can trust to be impeccable with their word. I think that there have been too many times when people think that privacy gives them an excuse to behave even more inappropriately than they do in public so I would not want to discuss anything in private with someone who clearly lacks self-control in public! The discussions I have had with trustworthy people in private have been helpful for me to talk about things I could not have addressed as effectively on the board. Everything I have ever said in a PM could just as well have been said in public except when discussing a particular person. The purpose of having discussions about a particular person were not intended as gossip, they were a means of validating that my observations and interpretations of a person's behavior were accurate and not distortions on my part. They were also effective in helping me determine the most effective means of dealing with a particular person in public since I was able to get advice and feedback from a variety of sources.

I see that the job of the leadership team is not one I would want to take on since it is often enough for me to weed through the drama to get to the purpose of my being at BPDR without needing to solve everyone else's problems as well, particularly when people refuse to take ownership of their own problems. Ironically, I see people doing to others the very things they complain about being done to themselves with a two-faced double standard that is either deliberate dishonesty or a lack of insight. I personally would prefer the garbage be dealt with in private so it does not contaminate the workplace of BPDR.

Trinity, I am not ignoring you or your post. I took some time off. Plus, had to work.

I'm not ignoring anyone's posts. I don't want to react and say something "ugly". That won't be "effective" for my own self-esteem, dignity nor the other persons.

Trinity, you have a valid point about my hi-jacking your thread. I am sorry. You have made your point with me and I understand.

Calista, Candle, Nik, Minx and others have let me know that SCL's cannot read PM's. That settles that question. The PM getting lost in outer space was most likely a glitch. That I can understand as well. Thank you all for the reassurances.

Denim wrote:



That is a good policy. It would nice if there was some kind of "ignore/I won't accept PM's from the following" type of button or "click" that could be set up.

Just a suggestion.

I've been here since the BPDR moved off EZBoard. There are some glitches in the system here and some of them I've noticed happen with PMs. It may seem strange, and the possibility that the system has been tampered with is valid. However from the record we have here of glitches occurring it seems more likely. This wasn't a possibility you seemed to take very much into account Julie.

You appear to have been quite mistrustful about security here for a while, have on one occasion held Ash soley responsible for it, plus making a lot of assumptions and drawing conclusions based on this mistrust. You're throwing all of the S/CL team under suspicion simply bc of a problem you have with Ash. This isn't very rational.

Are you looking at why you've become mistrustful? Are you taking responsibility for your feelings and reactions? Are you self reflecting? Looking in rather than out?

I know you know how to.

Yes, Sarah, I am.

Part of it is "outside" of me, if you will. The ROE keep changing on here; or are not enforced. It doesn't seem like there are any rules sometimes as SCL's can post some pretty hurtful (they know it is hurtful) and out of bounds stuff.

I think that if I posted some of the stuff that another posted about me, I'd be asked to leave.

I DO get angry and emotional if I find that someone is trying to silence my "voice". Not in RL, though - I've got that one pretty much figured out. It seems to be just on here. I am feeling threatened by S/CL's to 'go elsewhere', 'just leave', and 'we don't want your kind on here'. 'BFG wants to come back and can't.' 'Honestly, why do you even stick around'.

(Nice stuff, eh?)

That is MY perception. I'm not taking it personally. Because it isn't REAL in that it doesn't affect my real life.

So, yes, I will own what is mine to own. The angry, emotional part of me if I feel that my voice is being or asked to be "silent".

But I do not own how the ROE keep changing, are not enforced, and don't apply to everyone.

BFG coming back?

oh, shoot me now.

some just dont get her type. they lie there and want to be sucked dry. i wonder why. what is their need for this? why drawn to these types? why allow these types to break so many rules? why cant they SEE?

oh, man. BFG. shivers*

oops, off the subject. was there a subject? lol.

I have seen people say some pretty outlandish things about others where it is obviously a distortion. I think it is that distortion that is challenged and not what a person says exactly. For example, posts that seem to attribute Ash with having NPD (as if her site is even all about her) are so laughable that I don't think very many people would agree. What I see when I read those types of posts is that the people making such statements have made the same statements about nearly every family member they can possibly blame for their own problems and that they appear to be focusing too much time and effort on understanding NPD when it is really their own narcissistic traits they should be looking at instead. Posting about others in a context of NPD is like saying that their own narcissism is something they can't deal with and so they are projecting it on everyone else. We all have narcissistic traits, especially when we are focused on working on ourselves, so if anyone here completely lacked those self-centered traits, it would be an indication that they were not working on themselves and are instead focusing on blaming others rather than taking ownership of their own problems.

I once worked with a woman from Tennessee who would say, in a very strong southern drawl, "I don't have an accent, ya'll are the ones with the accent." Well, the truth is that even though I was raised in Colorado, I have an accent because I tend to speak with a mid-western drawl (usually thought of as a lack of accent since it is most used for voice recordings). If I go to another English-speaking country, I definitely have an American accent but it is not the same American accent as someone from other parts of the United States. Still, it was funny that this person had an unmistakenly strong accent and yet she was insisting that she did not have an accent while stating that everyone else had an accent.

The reason people are challenged and redirected here is mainly when their focus is on others and not on themselves. It is part of the ROE but not something that is as black and white as a set of rules. There are people who have a hard time seeing shades of gray and they tend to take issue with the ROE when in reality they are not that hard to grasp. The times it is appropriate to focus on others is when there is a spirit of helping involved. I might take time to focus on Trinity and her issue when she starts a thread on gossip because I may relate in some way. I can share ideas or personal experiences with her as a way of helping her find her own direction with the issue she is exploring. If I were to twist her thread to be all about me, asking her to focus her attention on my issues, getting bent out of shape when she doesn't answer my own self-centered questions, and then feeling upset when she backs out of the thread, I would not be following the rules of engagement.

If someone were to see my behavior and call me on it in an attempt to help me untwist my thinking or look at how my thinking is distorted, it may come across as "mean" and yet it is for my own benefit. I have often been told things here that I did not want to hear! Instead of saying "you are so mean for saying that" or "why doesn't anyone enforce the ROE and spare me hurt feelings?" I would be missing the opportunities for growth that have presented themselves here. If someone were saying something just to be mean and "pick a fight" then that would be breaking the ROE, however most things said in honesty are not intended to pick a fight because they are said with caring about another person.

A person has to have some sort of significance for me to want to invest myself in helping them and I have to see that they are in a place where they are willing to look at themselves and change inappropriate or ineffective behaviors. Some people just are not there and it would be best for the community of people who are here to work towards recovery if the people who are not in a place to benefit from BPDR found another venue for their attention-seeking drama and blame games. There are other places out there that cater to that sort of thing while BPDR has a strong recovery focus. Those who are unable to own their problems and work on solutions will not benefit from being here while the rest of the community is unfairly distracted by the conflict and drama they create. This needs to be a place where people can openly challenge each other or it is not going to promote healthy happy living.

The people on the leadership team have been chosen for the job because they are in a place in their own recovery where they can focus more attention on helping others than on looking at themselves. That does not mean they are "done" with recovery and that they are always the perfect example of how to best handle any given situation. They do take their jobs seriously and they are doing what they do in a spirit of giving and not one of power and authority. I think they deserve support for what they do rather than to be challenged and blamed for other people's hurt feelings. It is not something I would want to invest my energy in because I am not in a place where I have much to give beyond taking care of my own mental health issues. The leadership team deserves my respect because they have an incredibly difficult job and they do it without any thanks (or pay, LOL). They don't even get the benefit of doubt when their words are twisted beyond recognition and thrown back at them as if they are somehow not trustworthy.

I think there are times when it is appropriate to take things personally and not just shrug off everything that feels like criticism as "not taking things personally" in order to avoid hurt feelings. It can hurt to know that we are doing something wrong but to choose to put the blame on the person who is trying to gently admonish us is not going to help us learn and grow from the experience. No one likes to be called on bad behavior, and yet if no one cares enough about us to call us on it and instead chooses to ignore it or gossip about it, we would not benefit from those opportunities to change. We need to be able to accept that we are not perfect and that we are works in progress so we can take constructive criticism in the spirit it was offered to us.

My therapist told me last week that she was hesitant to tell me something because she was afraid it would upset me. Well, what she told me did upset me but not because she said it. I was upset because I did not want it to be true, even though I knew it was true. I am working on accepting my own mental health disorder and at the same time I don't want to believe it could be true. She wanted to be able to talk about it while I was doing everything I could to ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist. So, we looked at it together and I had to come to a place where I can accept that she thinks I have DID and that I probably do have DID even though I don't want it and I don't want to work on it in therapy.

When I was told that I had MPD at 16, I refused to believe it and I have been running from it ever since. I get close to seeing it for what it is and then I spin around the circle again thinking that if I just look at it from a different angle, I will see that it is not what I am being told it is. At this point, I have been diagnosed by nine different mental health professionals (those who told me what they suspected) and yet my first reaction was to look for someone else who would tell me something different! I do know I have a problem with dissociation and that I give the appearance of having DID and yet I keep hoping that I can manage it well enough that it will not show. This has been keeping me from healing because I have not been able to fully recognize the problem.

The first step to solving a problem is to recognize it and then to own it.
As long as we are not willing to look at our own problems, they will stay with us. We can blame our parents, the way we were raised, our spouses and other family members, our friends and neighbors, our therapist, the leadership team, or even other members of BPDR but we will not solve the problem until we can take ownership and work to solve it. It won't matter how many people tell us "you have a problem and I would like to help you find a solution" because we won't be able to listen and use them as a resource for self-reflection. It is important to get feedback from people outside ourselves and to put that information to use in order to gain insight that we don't have from the perspective inside our own minds.

If we get information from another person that we can see clearly does not apply to us because we know ourselves well enough to determine that the person was mistaken about us, then we don't need to take that personally. However, if several people are seeing the same thing, it may require us to take a closer look at ourselves to see what it is about us that other people are seeing in the same way.

I have had a couple of irate messages directed at me, from people whose opinions do not match my own or those I respect, saying that my words about another person were "mean" and at the same time I have seen that the other person was interpreting them as a personal attack when that was never the case. I know that I was "justified" in what I said and yet it was a waste of effort on my part when I should have just continued ignoring the person until they reach a place where they can make benefit of my words. The messages I got from those I do respect encouraging me to ignore the other person, even if it was not effective, are the ones that helped me to get back to a place where I am not wasting my energy on something that really had little to do with me anyway. In this situation it was important for me to balance the observations and opinions of people I respect with those I don't in order to see that what a few people say about me is their reality and not anyone else's reality. Those people are entitled to think what they will about me and it has no significance to me because their opinions do not alter my reality.

This is far longer than I thought it would be and I know that much of what I said will go over some people's heads so I think I am done. If I have anything else to contribute I will do so at a later time. I have spent too much of my day on this and it has little to do with me!

Denim Blue, I think your observation could possibly be true that some are seeing NPD in others but, refusing to see it in themselves. Some see it so badly in others and it bothers them so much, because it's actually a reflection of themselves. I can agree with this statement. Sometimes it can be quite obvious to me when on the outside looking in, but not to the person doing/experiencing it.

But not all, who have been exposed to NPD people as children, are bothered by NPD people now, because they're looking at themselves? Some of us talk about the NPD people in our lives because we want to figure out how to handle them so as to minimise damage to ourselves, how to still have them in our lives, without compromising our well-being, how to have empathy for somebody so sick and yet not allow their bad behaviour to rub off on us. We want to protect ourselves from the same hurts we felt as children. I for one admit to being troubled by seeing behavioural traits of NPD, because of the damage and destruction that has gone on in my life.

SOmetimes, it's hard to see a trait and not want to label the whole person NPD. As for people attributing NPD to Ash, as far as I'm concerned she herself as good as publicly announced to symptoms of the disorder in her "meltdown" thread. I'm not entirely convinced it's a full blown PD, but there is enough there that makes me want to keep well away. SOmetimes however, a trait is just a trait and the person doesn't have the full blown PD. I think that's where some of us who are passionate about the subject get caught. We see one trait and it becomes the whole disorder.

Anyway, back to what you said about it all being a reflection. I don't agree with this entirely. I am troubled by NPD behaviour in anybody. I know that I have sought deep within myself to see whether indeed I am bothered by them, because I am seeing my own reflection in a mirror, or whether I'm just bothered because it triggers some unresolved issue from childhood. Man, I have gone through some deep soul-searching and a lot of heartache picking out the aspects of myself that are abhorrent to me. At the end of the day, I am my mother/father's child and yes, I do have introjected messages of my parents within me that I'm having to learn to accept and then re-frame. Yes, I can be highly self-centred and self-absorbed as I come to get to know myself fully but, no I'm not arrogant and haughty and see others as morons. No I don't see myself as superior to anybody (in fact I feel the opposite most of the time.) I don't purposely go around abusing people for the thrill of it. I hate to hurt people. I have empathy for others and I mean genuine empathy (my feelings match my actions) not this pretend to care, but on the inside I'm actually feeling angry and wanting to yell at them stuff. In otherwords I try to be as congruent as possible.

ANyway, I have written more than what I intended to say. My main point was to DenimBlue, that no, not all people who are troubled by narcissistic behaviour in others; are narcissists themselves. If that was so true, are saying that you have NPD as well?

It takes a professional to make such determinations about people so I certainly would never attempt to determine if someone had NPD or not. According to my understanding, Ash was diagnosed with BPD and from what I recall she talked to her therapist about her concerns about her own narcissistic traits and her therapist told her that the label did not apply to her. According to some of the logic I have read here, Ash can not have NPD if that is a concern for her because people with NPD do not see it in themselves nor would they ever question their own narcissism - they would simply project their narcissism onto others.

I tend to use the term narcissistic as an adjective to describe behavior rather than using it to label a person the way others do here. I had a close friend whose father was professionally diagnosed as having NPD but it was his perverted sexual behaviors that caused her mental problems and not the fact that her father was narcissistic. My father was antisocial so I can't claim to have been raised by a narcissistic parent. Since I don't have a relationship with my father anymore, it would not be productive for me to figure out how I might best get along with him anyway. He disowned me when I married my husband and I am not interested in having a relationship with him ever again so it was the best thing he could have done for me, even though it is sometimes hard to deal with feelings of being rejected by a parent I tried so hard to please as a child.

Amanda, I can certainly understand why you would want to look at how you relate to your father when he is spending a month in your home. I see you questioning your own responses to specific behavior as opposed to putting your effort into understanding NPD. From what I have seen, you have remained introspective about your own responses to your father and you understand that who he is as a person is not defined by a mental health diagnosis. As far as I know, your father has not been diagnosed with NPD and you have not made that diagnosis for him. I think it is reasonable that you are troubled by your father's behavior and that you have looked at your own behavior in relation to what it is about his behavior that troubles you so much.

Anyway, I did not intend to take this thread off course so perhaps this would be better discussed as a separate topic. My bringing up NPD in this thread was in the context of an example used to illustrate a point and not as a separate topic for discussion. I am not even sure that a discussion about NPD is appropriate on a recovery board for people dealing with traits of BPD unless there are people who are having difficulty and need to talk about their own traits of NPD. Talking about others is not productive in working on ourselves unless we are focused on our own behavior as it relates to significant others we are dealing with in the present.

Can you elaborate on this sentence a bit? Are you saying that people who don't work on themselves blame others for their problems? What are you basing this on?

And why do you believe that in order to work on ourselves, we have to be self-centered? Self-centered to me seems a pretty negative concept - I would rather like to think of myself as taking care of myself rather than being self-centered. Roget's New Millenium Thersaurus cites self-centered as meaning - "blowhard, egocentric, egomaniacal

Didn't get to finish my post. I clicked too soon. I'm going to copy it and resume......



Can you elaborate on this sentence a bit? Are you saying that people who don't work on themselves blame others for their problems? What are you basing this on?

And why do you believe that in order to work on ourselves, we have to be self-centered? Self-centered to me seems a pretty negative concept - I would rather like to think of myself as taking care of myself rather than being self-centered. Roget's New Millenium Thersaurus cites self-centered as meaning - "blowhard, egocentric, egomaniacal, egotistic, egotistical, grandstanding, hot-dogging, independent, inward-looking, know-it-all, narcissistic, self-absorbed, self-indulgent, self-interested, self-involved, self-seeking, self-serving, self-sufficient, selfish, swelled headed."

I'd like to see other more positive words used to identify how we work on ourselves. Something that shows growth and education.

DB wrote:



Antisocial is another word for psychopath/sociopath, which is further down the slide of the scale from NPD. A person with NPD cannot feel empathy for others. An NPD feels guilt and shame but no empathy. A sociopath/psychopath feels NO EMPATHY and NO GUILT.

MPD is morphing into DID. Labels change all the time.

Many with BPD can exchange the BPD into another PD.

Professionals in the field of Psychology and Psychiatry are making discoveries all the time. PD's may indeed be genetic.

Amanda wrote:



Yes, I agree. I have done some heavy duty introspection on the whole narcissism stuff. Because my Dad does have it. Because it could be genetic. Because I have other siblings who exhibit the traits of it.

But what sets me apart is that I have empathy that shows in my actions as well as my words.

A "non" on here posted that there was someone in her life she had to go NC (no contact) with because of the other's narcissistic traits. Does that mean that this other one is reflecting their own N stuff onto another? NO.

Denim Blue, how much research, reading and therapy have you done on NPD, sociopaths, being an adult child of an N? How much soul searching? Your own Dad devalued and then discarded you.

People with UNhealthy N traits bug me. I cannot be around them for long. The reason? People with UNhealthy N traits have NO EMPATHY. They cannot give love because they do not love themselves.

Healthy narcissism is what it takes for one to pick themselves up when they need to; to take care of themselves; to nurture themselves.

And being an Adult Child of an N, I found any kind of healthy narcissism directed my way abhorrent. I had to unlearn that, with much difficulty. I mean, how in the world does could I become more centered in my self when I was taught that my being selfish, self centered would not be tolerated? (Untwisting that one was damn HARD.) Moreover, I didn't want to become the narcissistic, self centered person that my Dad is.

In understanding my Dad's NPD, I get valuable insight. ACON's are prime targets for relationships with other N's. The reason? Until we figure it out, what makes the N tick, what is so destructive about it, what makes us a prime target, we are doomed to being N supply.

I suffered much at the hands of an N parent. I suspect many who have BPD did as well. Because they grew up devalued and discarded. They learned to self loathe. It is the remembrance of that suffering that keeps me 40 paces away from any red flag of an N trait.

BTW, I don't care what direction my threads take. I am not possesive that way. I like creative process.

If BPD has credulity, then perhaps there is something to NPD, psychopaths/sociopaths other personality disorders as well. I think many of us can spot and know NOW when we are dealing with someone who may be Borderline, right?

Does that mean we are just reflecting our Borderline traits onto the other? Nope. There are NON's on here that will tell you about their relatives, loved ones that exhibit some of the criteria and symptoms of BPD.

There are the same certain symptoms and criteria for those with NPD. They are not mere reflections, they are real.

I don't know if she's saying that, but I am.

Why do you say that Minx? I mean, I have never blamed anyone for my problems. And if I didn't go to therapy or work on myself, that would automatically mean I'm blaming others for my problems. I don't see how you get from Point A to Point B. Can you explain? Thanks!

Just a thought about this...

There does need to be some hard and fast ROE. This is a public, published forum.

We are real people in real life; not merely avatars. :thinkbefore

Gossip is one thing. Publishing it to a website where it can be publicly viewed may be another.

Ash herself acknowledged her N traits. Was pointing it out to her "mean"? Or just being honest?

What a distorted view of things. A way to justify ones own crappy behaviors. What about treating people with respect- respect for where they are; what they are going thru- an attempt to see things from their shoes (which has nothing to do with agreeing with them or enabling them) and then offering them that nudge..

People constantly justify their meanness as 'for the other persons own good/growth/health/healing' and call it a nudge. When is this community going to get real and see it for - and call it - what it is- down right crappy mean behavior- and when repeated - abusive.

You don't need to be raped or hit to be abused.

This community - and its CL team, thanks to its owner/leader - encourage abuse under the guise of 'recovery'.

That's a fact. One many people are afraid to say outright.

So maybe BLAME is not the correct word. Perhaps not. If I weren't up to my elbows in work, I'd go hunt me up a thesaurus...

Those of us who do not look inside for our solutions tend to see the problems as outside ourselves. Those people I know in "recovery" who choose NOT to focus on themselves have a tendency to cast their problems onto other people. When we put our energy into examining what other people did or did not do with/to/for us, we are not focusing on ourselves.

As an example or two, How many times have you posted here about the way your sister just "doesn't get it" or if SHE would just listen to you or...? Whether your sister has problems or not doesn't matter as much much as coming to understand that the problem YOU have with her is YOUR problem. Even in your CC with Sarah, I see a lot of references to Denim and how SHE this or SHE didn't that. Even the discussion about "I need other people to reassure me" - talking about OTHER PEOPLE and what they need to do FOR YOU so that you can be OK.

Is that focusing on yourself or is it focusing on someone else?

In the example of the old XBF - at that time, I was drinking, too. And my perception of the situation was that HE was a horrible guy and I didn't know what I had done to deserve such a creep and how could I get HIM to change. As I've moved into recovery, I know understand that I need to be more selective about whom choose for a relationship and I need to take better care of myself and I need to decide what I want for my future.

Now I understand. Thanks Minx. :halo