BPDRecovery.com: Forums

Smilin,

I was saying that I choose not to live in a versus situation here, and so I don't participate here in that way (except for occasionally putting my foot in my mouth).

If there is an us vs. them situation here and I don't see it, I'm not avoiding seeing it -- from where I sit, I just don't see it. I am not where you sit, where you do see it.

The pot on the stove feels like its butt is burning, while the burner groans under the pot's weight. Meanwhile, the person making the double batch of vegetable soup doesn't know much at all about the plights of the pot and the burner!

So you're the pot and I'm the burner. I acknowledge that you see an us vs. them situation here. I do not mean to tell you that you don't. If you want, we can talk about it more; start a thread or a CC. Maybe we'll both see a little bit of the other's perspective, which I think would be good. (Or maybe we'll just agree to disagree.)

Peace,
jim

i was thinking, and while i do care for some, and love my kids and grands above all else, most everyone else is a them* to me.

it probably always will be. as such, i dont trust much and many. nothing personal, i just dont want to. not something i am spending my energy on. its my expectations that would be brought down anyways...no one elses.

guess i missed the boat on us and them, and to me, most everyone is "them".

i would appreciate Ash not using my name as a example. she will be poking the sleeping bear since we all know our last communication was things said not nice to/about me by her. i understand fully how she thinks of me and wish to stay as far away as possible from any interaction with her. i think its a very bad idea to have any type of acknowledgement right now by someone who so publically dislikes me or "says negative adjectives about me as a person" as some prefer me to say.

please keep me out of your examples unless its a direct quote i said. i am struggling to behave and be quiet, and that is not helpful to me.

i already got in trouble for saying the word fuck and wouldnt use it again.

thank you.

Jim -

We all have many choices in life, but ignoring the obvious is only a way to perpetuate problems - on any level; in any walk of life. It's one thing to walk into someone else's problems, it's another to not want the best for the environment in which one operates. What's been occuring here, has been going on for the greater part of the year I have been here. And, the problem with staying out of someone else's problems is that this hasn't been 'one persons' problem or a disagreement between two people - hence the 'us' vs 'them' approach to this- one I did not bring to the table but refuse to say doesn't exist. Point being - that it has been moving around and it is and will (eventually) encompass as many people as 'we' allow it to. Therefore I don't see any way for me personally to ignore it. It does and will continue to affect me. Even if I can't bring about any effective change, I can at least not hide from it- the obvious pink elephant in the room.

I will take you up on your invite, but because this isn't just my opinion - based upon the fact I did not start this thread and that a number of other people have acknowledged there is 'an' or 'some' issue around an us vs them, I believe it would be in the best interest for the board if this were a thread where everyone is able to participate. I also hope that we, as a community, can have a discussion vs an argument

(ps - I've noticed a side of you that I've not observed before or perhaps just hadn't paid much attention to: the usage of analogies, especially back to back. I always find analogies an interesting way of presenting information.)

Problems will repeat themselves until they are resolved.

I was responding to Jim's question to me. Of course you don't need to participate. That is your option. And that is fine.

You are wanting 'problems' to disappear. I believe that is considered magical thinking.

Is there any chance that things are where they have been these past few months because nothing has been resolved ? Why do similiar issues return time after time? How does 'moving on' (ie ignoring them help).

It's obvious that people would rather work on themselves - and it's obvious people agree their are flaws- flaws don't cause the amount of dissention that has been occuring. (Again- an indication that the real issue has not been addressed.)

It could well be that everyone steps down. So be it. If that is the direction the community wants- then that will be shown, won't it?

I don't understand why when it has been offered to hold a discussion, others are now saying 'oh no, lets not'- one thought is they may not like to hear what may come up; another thought and one I buy into more is that people hate conflict and the idea of what they cherish- this place to come to that is supposed to be supportive is - has been anything but of late and will continue to be. Sometimes you have to go thru the muck to get to the good stuff.

Discussions do not have to be drama-filled. And, again- it depends on really the objective. Was Jim actually making an invite to me and the community because he is interested in what is out here (he already admitted to making a choice as opposed to saying that there is no 'us' vs 'them') or was this some manipulative act. I took Jim at his word for wanting to hear about what he is chosing to ignore. Perhaps that was the wrong choice. Perhaps the community would indeed rather put 'trouble to bed' so in another month or two it can ressurect again; more factions can be created; more upset; dissention; drama; more anger; more bullying.

While I am chosing to partipicate, this really is a community decision- moreso it is a management decision (which I hope means the whole CL team)- are they content with the direction of the board or do they feel that perhaps if a few things were addressed and cleaned up more productive use of the board could be made ?

Ooops -

Looks like I got way ahead of things. No one said they wanted to 'address' the us vs them thing.

Jim only said he choses to not to live that way and hence does not participate in that manner here. He then invited me to discuss it more (which truthfully, I am not sure what he meant by that) and in thinking on this, because I do not, I will have to ask him before I proceed as the last time I thought I understood an invite to a discussion it was anything but.

So, Jim - since I am not clear on what that discussion would be/look like, I cannot participate until I understand what your invite is. It was your offer so there must be some information you are seeking.

Thanks,

Smilin

Smilin, you have said that you perceive an us-vs-them atmosphere here. I have said that I do not perceive it. I am willing to listen to you explain why you perceive it, and share with you the dynamics I see happening here, and discuss to compare and contrast. I may come to see some of your perception, you may come to see some of mine, or we may both end up right where we are right now. But I wanted to show that I am willing to honor you by discussing our perceptions rationally. jim

Jim,

As I mentioned earlier- if the discussion is open to the board, and we can compare contrast - as a community - without things getting heated, I think it could be beneficial.. If nothing else for perceptions to be aired and looked at from various viewpoints.

Smilin, I am interested in discussing perceptions with you, but I don't have it in me to moderate a board-wide discussion. If you want to have a meaningful board-wide discussion, open a thread and do it. But what I am offering is to listen to you and share what I think and see if there's any insight we can gain from each other. I am willing to give good time and thought to that. jim

Jim -

Apparently I misunderstood (again) your first post in which you mentioned a discussion on the board. My bad.

I do not chose to have a one on one discussion. I do not trust that one on one discussions are about two-way communication. Likewise, I do not want to be singled out on the board time and time again, especially over a situation that more than one or two people are observing/have chimed in on. I am not here to convince anyone of anything- as I previously stated. But I will speak up for myself (and othes, when necessary.) It's pretty much as Susanna and a few others have said- it is important to me to not just sit by.

I'm disappointed, but I accept it.

I don't come around much anymore, but here's my feelings.

I came to this community over 2 years ago and found it helped me greatly in understanding BPD issues. It provided me with support for the things I deal with, as well as good suggestions and insight. However, after the big blowup regarding "T Attachment" issues, I decided to step away from this board.

I, for one, have found the T attachment issue to be central to my healing -- and while I agree that T obsession is unhealthy, I absolutely disagree that strong attachment feelings with one's therapist is unhealthy, wrong, or a sign of "not wanting to progress or work on recovery. I also disagree that a person should break the attachment just because they are struggling with it. It bothered me greatly to see a whole group of persons here (none with professional experience as a therapist) emphatically tell Wondering that she should quit therapy because of her t attachment issue. It seems to me that they were acting on their own feelings about therapist attachment, rather than on any actual published information or research on attachment issues.

Wondering has since decided to quit therapy. I hope for her sake it's the right move. Yet she has already mentioned that perhaps she has transferred her attachment issue from her therapist to this board. If so, was "cutting the tie" with her therapist the answer? From what I've researched, unless a person works through their attachment issues, they are bound to repeat them over and over again in different relationships.

Now if Wondering's therapist agrees that she is ready to quit, and she decides to quit of her own choice because she is convinced that's what she needs to do, great. But if she was pressured to make this decision based on the many posters who said her attachment was bad, dysfunctional, weakness, evidence of not wanting to progress, then that's really sad to me.

So, yeah, I think there is an us-them sort of mentality here. But I wouldn't say it's necessarily the Admins versus the Rest. I see the problem more in terms of too many people here playing the expert and feeling jusified in judging others rather than working on their own stuff. People need to quit arguing and correcting and judging and blasting each other and get back to the purpose of this site, which is to work on our own issues. Unfortunately, I don't feel able to do that, since my issues are primarily attachment oriented, and the rules of this board prohibit me from making the sort of posts that would benefit my journey toward healing. My therapy is more psychodynamic than CBT, and there seems to be an intolerance for that here.

Incidentally, during the whole "T Attachment" blowup, I found myself getting upset and arguing with Ash over it. We discussed it in CC and resolved it. But it remains clear to me that my method of healing in therapy is directly in opposition to the whole "pull yourselves up by the bootstraps, grow up, cut the tie" mentality approach that is so often advocated here. I see very black and white thinking here, in which compassion and empathy are labeled "enabling" and "coddling" -- and where people shame others under the guise of "giving recovery-oriented advice."

And, yeah, I've had to grieve the fact of having to step away from this place. I came here for support, and at first got a lot of great support and advice. But eventually, I felt looked down upon and shamed because my feelings and beliefs did not jive with the majority. I spent a lot of years in my family growing up being shamed and told that what I was doing was bad and wrong. When the support I was getting here turned into a recapitulation of the shaming I received at home, I felt I had to move on, because rather than feeling supported, I was made to feel bad about myself.

(((emergingtoo))) This is one of the ways I see the "them" and "us" mentality has arisen here. I feel sad that people like you feel unsafe to discuss your issues here.

I feel angry that people who might actually benefit from an attachment relationship (In fact I believe in the cases of severe dissociative disorders and Chronic PTSD that a secure attachment relationship is the key component to the healing) are put off because of such strong negative opinions and beliefs by the head of this board (and yes, I know she hates it but yes, people DO LOOK up to her and her follow her lead.)

I'm over it as far as I'm personally concerned. I won't ever be swayed that the relationship with my T has been anything other than single most important factor in my growth over the past 4 or so years. Unfortunately I'm still left feeling anger and sadness for others and this is where I seem to have come stuck.

I'm glad you brought this up E2. (Nice to see you BTW )

Emerging: I want to make it clear that no one on the board pressured me into quitting therapy. I would never give the board that kind of power. It was mostly my T who pressured me into ending it, so if anyone is to "blame", it's her, not the board. As much as I fought her pushing me, it was inevitable as soon as I started lengthening the time between sessions. I decided that she was right, and it had nothing to do with the board.

I do understand your feelings about the way Ash handled the t-attachment issues, but I also know that she did not mean that you, me, Amanda, and others were not welcome here. There's a grey area here, and I chose to look at it. I wasn't pressured, but it so happened that the whole episode came about at the time my T was trying to get me to stop believing in the fantasy that she could "fix me". I was still feeling obsessed with/addicted to her. I realized that my feelings were unhealthy, and the fact that Ash and others saw it as unhealthy reinforced my beliefs. I don't think T-attachment is unhealthy, but in my case it was going beyond what effective therapy should be. It wasn't healthy for me, so I accepted the new board "rules."

I found out that it was still okay to talk about my T and my attachment. I think there is a grey area, and Ash has said so. It's not black and white. But I do feel like few people want to support me in discussing how I'm doing with my impending termination of therapy. I do feel disappointed that a place I come to for support is not all I want it to be. But I honestly don't think that's the "them and us" that's going on right now.

It got too complicated for me to understand completely, and I don't have any answers to what's happening on the board. I feel sorry for newbies and others who have their own issues to discuss, and wonder what's going on here. Many threads are being ignored because people can't get along.

No one is perfect; Ash has admitted mistakes. Other CLs have given their opinions. Maybe it's time to get back to working on ourselves. Life is too short for this kind of bickering, accusations, and so on. We aren't going to marry each other, so can't we just interact with those we get along with, and don't with those we don't get along with? Too many feelings have been hurt in a process that really has no answer, in my opinion. The leaders or whatever you want to call them, are volunteers. They are doing their best. They don't get paid for this! Call them mods or whatever--it doesn't really matter. We need to stop insulting each other, and get on with our work here.

I am really sad about that because I, for one, miss you and looked forward to your posts. You are a very caring, compassionate person and a huge loss because you aren't here as much.


I don't blame you. Several good people who were working hard on their issues, you included, were offended and stepped away. What a shame.


The thing that strikes me is that you and others were told how unhealthy this was, stop posting about T attachment in a manner so harsh I was shocked. Truely there have been people with much, much, much unhealthier issues posting about them and given much more time, empathy, and patience!! Without being scolded or told to find another community. Geesh! Am I the only one who sees this? This feeds into the them versus us problem. Also, I think if one diggs deeper, you can see this as splitting----therapist talk is bad and other talk (fill in the blanks) is good and okay----splitting people, splitting the community.


I understand Emerging and it just sucks because attachment issues are CORE to BPD. CORE!

And yes, we cannot change anybody else, only ourselves. Any advice or direction should be suggestion and give up the expectations. Too many judgements.

It's okay to work on this, but not that, so find another community. Or, it isn't okay to rant, but it IS okay for others to rant or melt down as long as they are sorry afterwards. Rants are okay, but working through attachment issues isn't? And really, isn't this all about control? You can't control a board of people. (not speaking to Emerging, but to those who it might apply to).


I see what you mean and it is wrong. Just wrong. If we could pull ourselves together we wouldn't need therapy or meds or anything else. Whomever uses that type of judgement has the problem that needs to be looked at very closely in terms of tolerance for others.


It wasn't the majority. Frankly, it was the leadership. What is left is a feeling of needing to ask persmission, Ash, may I please talk about an issue I have with my therapist? and frankly I resent that. It's B.S.

I'm left with:
1. What is this site about?
2. Is it run under a dictatorship?
3. If we chose to stay here and talk amonst others who have similar issues, do we have to do it under the rules of the owner, and to what degree?
4. Does the owner want a community of followers?
5. Does the owner want a community of people going down only certain paths, ones that she dictates? If so, why? That is really something to look at, the reason to want people to be followers. Geesh, it sounds dangersous.
6. What is the problem with talking about other points of view or other issues or problems that are not in line with the "leaders" thinking? Shouldn't forums be a place for people to express THEMSELVES? It is obvious that SOME PEOPLE are tolerated to express VERY UNUSUAL practices and beliefs with TOLERANCE, while another person mentions they want to call their therapist and BAMN!!! WHAMM!!! NOT TOLERATED, PLEASE LEAVE.

The damn shame is that people here have grown to care about each other regardless and they are losing connections and support because of the B.S. like above. I call B.S.

The only time any leader here should confront a person on a post should be when they are being inflamatory or hurtful, not when they are dealing with issues that a leader feels is not okay, NOT when a leader feels a person is not making enough progress (what the hell does anybody know about that from postings?? you might not even know everything about that person, or where they are coming from, where they are).

The leadership needs to treat ALL the SAME. And by that I mean, people should be allowed to post about their stuff, period! No judgement by the leadership team who are people in recovery themselves. I mean like what the heck driving somebody away because they are talking about attachment to their therapist, yet allowing another person to talk about getting high or prostituting themselves and tolerating it with kindness and understanding?

If you are going to pick and chose who you want on your site, then just say so directly so people can really see what they are getting into.

You have no right to tell people how to act, what tennents they should believe or adhere to, what they should think, what type of therapy they need or should be doing, or anything else. No right! This is a free damn country and people should be able to express themselves here and talk about their journey. Who wants to be sensored!? Who wants to be told what to do?! Not the leaders here, and certainly not the other participants.

I agree completely. :thumbsup

I think opinions and advice are very important, but there needs to be a balance. I find advice most helpful when it's given in the form of suggestions. In fact, I like to get lots of different suggestions to help me find something that's likely to work for me. And I'm always happy to hear other people's opinions on my issues, as long as they're given with the acknowledgement (implicit or explicit) that we all have a right to our own opinions, and I don't have to agree.


I understand where you're coming from (((((C2L))))) but do you think it might be less black and white than this? What about those opinions and advice that I mentioned above, *if* given respectfully? I know I've given you my opinions in the past and I've said things that can't have been easy to hear and you said you found it helpful. Would it have been a problem for you if I was an (S)CL? Or is it more about the way things are phrased? Or wasn't I helpful after all? (I can take it if I wasn't!)

To everyone:

I'm trying to put my thoughts about what's been going on here lately into words and I'm struggling. I do think mistakes have been made and several recent events have been really damaging to the community, and I understand those who feel they've been treated unfairly and desperately want to be heard. But if people aren't willing to listen to each other and accept different opinions and focus on meeting their own needs, then I think the community's going to self-destruct, and that would be terribly sad.

I do think it's a disadvantage of CBT that it can be misinterpreted or taken too far. I know that I initially found CBT really helpful, but fell into the trap of thinking if I was feeling miserable, it must be my own fault for having twisted thoughts. And it really isn't that simple. I also fell into the trap of thinking I should constantly be doing more and more "self-help" - if I didn't feel better, I mustn't be doing enough! And in fact the opposite was true. I was depressed, I had limited resources, I was pushing myself too hard and it was counterproductive. And finally, I do see people here occasionally misusing the tools, for example by deliberately posting something malicious to another person, then absolving themselves of responsibility by saying they "shouldn't have taken it personally". And that's very sad too.

I believe DBT was developed in part because Marsha Linehan found a lot of people with BPD experienced CBT as too invalidating - so she tried to take the good parts of CBT but repackage it in a way people with BPD could accept. And I wonder if there's a way we could incorporate the validation, the open-mindedness, the emphasis on finding the balance into the BPDR tools more. I'd like that a lot, and I think it would help with the current conflicts.

Just some things to think about.

Yes, I did find any advice you gave me helpful. I think what I meant to say was that instead of banning people for continuing to work on attachment issues such as involvement with their therapist or saying something like "I drove by my therapist's house" that maybe what could happen is somebody trying to considerately help, as you have said, rather than make them feel like they are not wanted because of their issues. It happened that this issue was made to seem like a very bad example and a big deal was made of it. I think that was wrong and hurtful. As I said earlier, there are other "bad examples" that are handled much differently. What is difficult for one is not difficult for another. And a certain persion could go through not much trauma and have huge problems with living while another person could go through trauma and not even ever need therapy or help and be successful. I think EVERYONE has to be considered as valid with regard to their own issues and not be told that they need to change or leave. There can't be more tolerance for one problem than another, can there? And who is the judge of this? Why should there be a judge?

I think you are right, "respect" is the correct word and it needs to be shown at all times. People here are "guests" and need to be treated as such.

Hi ((Emerging)) - tis good to see you back on! )

Re: The T-attachment issue, Ash said that she had been wrong about that.

My recollection is that Ash apologized for having said negative things about the psychoanalytic process/therapies, etc., (which I had for seven years myself), and then it was clarified that the focus of the intended input was about the suggested efficacy of people with self-identified, issues/problems with with a specific T-attachment itself, focusing on that, in addition to working on other issues one might have.

It was adamantly clarified, including by me, that the method of therapy involving transference, etc., was not appropriate to have had aspersions cast upon it - that that was a mistake - that psychodynamic therapies are acknowledged as being an important part of bpd recovery, and that no one here are experts or should stand in the shoes of any member in his/her therapy choice decisions.

Admittedly, that all came out in a bunch of different thread/posts and no one has tried to summarize it in awhile, (although I recall some summarizations along these lines were posed back then, but, understandably, emotions were running raw and high at the time - certainly not speaking here of yours specifically here, ((Emerging)), so it is possible that the entirety of the message did get lost in the shuffle or needs to be re-iterated, or if it was never said in full, then clarified as I am trying, (I hope half-way articulately :shysmile ), here.

I've missed you, too, ((Emerging)), and I hope this might help a little bit, although I know it take time for the hurt to subside and that action going forward, (since we can't really go back, unfortunately), will have to prove-up the veracity of these words.

Most fondly and as ever,

Candle

Cross-posted with ((C2L)) :halo .

[

Speaking for myself, this is what I have always thought, too, ((Marga)). I think the intention is to include concepts like 'mindfulness' into the equation here, and also, by outlining the 'Rules of Engagement' (which are being revised to include more about the concepts of empathy and compassion, etc., that you outlined in them more clearly = i.e. they are there re: urging people to do a motive check before posting, etc., but to further outline them I mean), the goals of not being invalidating and so on were intended to be a part of working with CBT here.

I'm not saying that there have not been mistakes in that area, (sorry about all the double-negatives :shysmile ), because there have been, but I think and believe that that is what has been the intention.

Anyway, we are, (again, I believe and last I knew), in the process of changing or adding additional emphasis, etc., on the concepts that would help allay, hopefully, the important points, (about the perceived negatives associated with CBT use), so that the environment here in which CBT and the other 'Tools' won't be invalidating.

Thank you again for your insightful input! :halo

most fondly,

Candle